EK Resignations

[Brix]

I would appreciate if somebody sheds some light on the exit process that follows a resignation at EK- time frame, bureaucracy to go through, etc.

Thanks guys

Another unhappy professional pilot leaving Emirates.

[fullforward]

So is it that bad?
How long have you been at the sand pit and what rank/fleet?
Cheers

[Sandwedgie]

Ohh, all different exits will be at hand. Not the first time in a ME ailrine. History just repeats itself.
As EK credo is diminishing so rapidly, I am sure guys will sell everything, take a big ass loan and hang their uniform in a hotel on a layover with a very interesting note attached. And dissapear.
It happened a lot before in other airline that went the same way. Buy the way, it is exactly the same thing the "managers" are doing. Save, save, no matter what the cost as long as one's cost cutting contribution reflects in a mega bonus. Doesn,t matter what comes next, who gives a r***ss about my shop longterm- my pockets are nicely rounded and let's retire.

:D Chin up, though, guys in Abu Dhabi just got a payraise. And they mean business over there. It's not that far.

Swedgie

[Brix]

I thought I was the one asking questions in this thread.

I still hope that somebody who left EK recently is browsing this forum.

[sanddancer]

As one who's had enough of 'discovering' in the relatively short time I've been with the company - anyone got any idea if those who've gone have been pursued for bonds etc?

[EZGOEK330FO]

Hello Brix,
I spoke to .. who left us and went back to Ryanair this last week, and he said that if you think joining was a run around, then see leaving.... In a nutshell you will have to close down your bank accounts, get a letter form the bank that you do not owe them anything, and that you have closed all your accounts to include credit cards, loans, and savings/checking accounts. You give this letter to Emirates EGHQ, and together with all other forms collected from Uniform stores, accomodation, etc you give your passport to them and they will cancel your visa. You have three days to do all this once you have stopped flying, and you only get your passport back at the airport from Marhaba as you also get your release from Dubai ticket. Emirates will keep your end of service benefits, (ie your contributions) for three months just in case some one comes up and says that you owe them money. After this interest free period they will post you the check to your home country address in Dirhams and then you have to find a bank that will cash it. You also have to pay your bond if you still have one, and all damages done to your place of residence if beyond normal ware and tare....
On the other hand you could just walk away, leave the keys to your car in the appartment and call them from home and tell them that you are not coming back...
Why am I up to date? I am also planning to leave in the very near future as soon as I have the results from my interviews...

Sanddancer, I know the one guy who just walked away like the Jonnie Walker commercial and he said to me keep walking.... not discovering.... He left them cold after being here for a good four and a half months and they have not yet come after him as they do not have an address for him. He did not pay of his loans on his car, but then again it was with the RAK bank. As far as his bond he told Emirates to keep looking for him...

[donpizmeov]

From the research of one of the fellas I flew with recently Re the end of service payment (well the A fund on the provident fund). You can leave this in your provident fund once you leave. That way it stays in $US instead of the Dirham payment. You can then transfer this amount out after the three month waiting period.
Suggest you give the the provident fund man a call and ask. His number is in the contact book.
He also stated that he was told he would have to pay back the bond. Think if you do not do this you do not get your passport and tickets at the airport, and will be unable to leave. A phone call to John Howard will confirm or otherwise this one.
If you are going to do a runner from a layover, be sure to buy the other pilot a few beers before you go, as he will have a nightmare of phone calls explaining to SNMC and that other guy why exactly he can not fly home Single pilot.
Good luck.
Don

I believe it is actually two pilots who are on extended extended (was it called walking?)leave at the moment. Good luck to the both of them.

[sanddancer]

Thanks for the prompt replies - anyone know if any of the recent leavers has taken legal advice in their home state re changes to the terms of the contract etc?

Any definitive word on how many have gone?, as usual rumours running wild about numbers but very little definite to go on.

[Backwater]

Not so long ago this forum was rife with pilots wanting to know how to get in!
To quote TCK from a couple of years ago, "Oh how the mighty have fallen...".
I wouldn't recommend doing a runner though. These things have a habit of catching up with you. Better to jump through the hoops and leave with your head high.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Two schools of thought re to pay or not to pay, that is the question :E

Like Backwater says, things have a habit of catching up with u, maybe depends who you will work for next i guess and your consience.
Secondly, walk into the sunset, it sounds a great story, and some have done it, but more risky i think in the long run. :\

If you dislike leave sooner than later, all those loans on cars, etc, etc soon mount up.:ooh:

Sandancer, seems loads leaving, well i hard 7 in the last 2 weeks, might be just a rumour though :) Perhaps TCAS can bust that one.
Or that most of the "demoted" TRI's on the bus, have told the company to stuff it and are not interested anymore. Now thats a good un.

Keep Discovering.

SyB :zzz:

[BYMONEK]

EZGOEK330FO

That's the second time you've included someone elses initials into one of your posts. We're not disputing the facts of your posts but as you're not prepared to leave your own initials,why use other peoples?:confused:

[Emma Rate]

I don't believe Brix is for real, he is just stirring.

Not paying Emirates because you have a dispute with them is perhaps one thing. But not paying your loans to other people/banks is just plain stealing.

Okay guys: Open fire! :}

[Brix]

To the moderator:

what do you think I have to do to give it a true image?

I haven't spent a very long time in the company and because the social life among my fellow countrymen left a lot to be desired this is the only way for me to gather info about this subject.

EZGO: thx a lot. Now I got an idea about the time required.

[White Knight]

BYMONEK - jolly good point re sleazy, sorry EZ:ok:

[Mick Jagger]

I left recently for greener pastures and if you drop me a PM I will discuss it with you. I found HR to be very very helpful and the company was, as always, very supportive.
I would strongly advise you to cancel all credit cards now as the bank will require at least 6 weeks to ensure that there are no further charges.

HR will give you a list of departments to get a sign off from and this is self explanatory.

Buy all you SRC tickets now as once you resign you have to pay cash and that is a lot of hassle for various reasons. Also if you have any refund tickets cash them in now.
You will lose your ALT tickets so, same story use them now.

Make sure you inform the school of your intentions or you will be charged for a whole term!!

The company let you keep your phone and mobile till the last minute which is really helpfull.

All in all a pretty painless experience made easy by the hard work of a few dedicated professionals in HR and finance.

Good Luck

Mick

[fullforward]

I'm really chocked that the once regarded "Eldorado" for airline job seakers had turn into a place from were people what to escape!...
And after that NASA-style screening tests and all...

Geez!:confused:

[rumblytumblypoo]

Thats the real pisser really. EK considered themselves amongst the best and had in all fairness a recruitment policy to reflect it. They sought to hire good people and are now suprised the very same people are realising their worth and wanting to leave.

[fullforward]

Check your PM, pls

[v1r8]

"If you are going to do a runner from a layover, be sure to buy the other pilot a few beers before you go, as he will have a nightmare of phone calls explaining to SNMC and that other guy why exactly he can not fly home Single pilot.
Good luck."

-----------

Ha Ha. Thanks for the good laugh buddy!

[fractional]

EK says EY had a pay rise... My mate says all there is is a rumour... but the old excuse is (or is going to be) that both EY and EK staff are not government though owned by the government(s); very conveniently. By May end all will be cleared.
Chk this link
http://www.gulfnews.com/Articles/NationNF.asp?ArticleID=160365 .
There has been another post here touching the same subject.
Keep discovering...
frax

[gccpro]

Surprised you haven't jumped ship yet!

:E

[AN FO fossil]

Folks I'll be the first to point out that as I haven't started with EK yet I am in no position to comment or offer an opinion on this line of discussion. However I would like to add one thought.

In the last few years I have worked as a packer in a factory, a taxi driver, a school bus driver, a labourer, a fencer, a coach driver, a maintenance assistant in a little flying school and a concrete agitator driver.

It is no fun at all. I'd rather be flying.

[typhoonpilot]

In the last few years I have worked as a packer in a factory

Would that have been a fudge factory? :eek:

Sorry, that was too easy of a set-up.

Your point, though, is well taken. There are a lot of people at Emirates who came from failed or failing carriers. They don't tend to be the ones on Pprune doing the complaining. If they are, then they have conveniently forgotten the alternative. We all wish for fairness and better terms and conditions, that is only natural. We would also like to share in the success, or at least keep up with inflation. At the end of the day though, this is one of the best jobs out there. That says more about the state of the airline pilot profession than it does about Emirates.

TP

[LHR Rain]

Typhoon,

Just because some of us came from failing carriers does not mean that we should be less receptive to industry standards. We should also be paid like international wide body pilots. EK prides themselves on being a world class carrier and I have to take issue with this being a world class paying job. With the expenses in DXB (inflation,food,entertainment) I believe you are better off at most European airlines with the additional benefit that you have employer labor laws that protect you from the likes of EK mangers.
Just because most of the pilots here at EK have received a windfall with regards to pay and lifestyle conditions is the reason that things will never change here. Guys don't want to rock the boat and the pilots that have come from Europe (1st world carriers) and especially Americans will have to suffer here.

[gccpro]

Well everyone is somehow right and each has a right to their own opinion. The truth however must be said and EK is not what it was let's say 10 years ago.

Dubai has become terribly expensive and when I see that some dare say that it is still cheaper than Europe they are totally wrong.

Dirham for Dirham indexed on it's value 10 years ago and in relation to the exchange rate we all face we are making a lot less money than we did before. Ask anyone with a morgage back home and they will tell you.

I had to take the jump and although reticent in the begining, I am actually better off. But by God was it difficult to make that decision!

You would be surprised at what is available out there... It's just that when you are within EK there is this feeling that you can't leave either because you are going to miss out or because you won't find anything and it's a false sense of belonging that is somehow enshrined within the loose knitting of the EK culture.

Whatever culture that is... There were not many girls with a daddy like Senator Ignatius!

I missed my friends, but not Dubai and it's unpersonal feel, and I laugh when I see some saying Scarlets is great when in reality we know that most "boys" hang out opposite the american hoiispital past 2330 LT, and that Scarlets is full of MMD/BHW seekers and pretentious new comers.

Mate hang in there and look around there is plenty going in the business and not necessarily with UAE carriers.

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

[typhoonpilot]

LHR Rain:

Guys don't want to rock the boat and the pilots that have come from Europe (1st world carriers) and especially Americans will have to suffer here.

Since I'm an American and don't feel the least bit like I'm suffering, I fail to understand this statement.


gccpro:

Glad to see the LSD has worn off, this post makes more sense than some of the bizarre stuff you were posting yesterday.


TP

[gccpro]

Hi Typhoon pilot;

Don't know anything about it!

;) ;) ;)

Did you slip it in? carefull, Dubai is not what I would call LSD friendly! And don't know what is worse being on LSD or being American?

:E :E :E

Ask good old UP he found out at his own cost a few years ago in SIN

But I am widya! undercover but I am widya!

:ok:

[typhoonpilot]

gccpro:

And don't know what is worse being on LSD or being American?

As long as GW is president I think being on LSD is the better choice. That way we won't remember much when it is finally over :ok:

TP

[davidletterman]

TP:

You would't by chance be speaking your wise words from the left seat??

I thought so...

[LHR Rain]

Typhoon

If you are indeed a real Yank and worked in the US you would have to been making loads more money and taking loads more home with you each month with the low tax system they have there.
If as your name suggests you worked in the Orient you probably love the pay system here in the sand. Also I might offer that since you worked in the far east you probably made command fast there and now are captain at EK which improves your life considerably more than a lowly FO. I just hope you are not a DEC. Some of us from Europe did not have the quick commands that you enjoyed but had a much better lifestyle than EK and DXB entails.
I have admitted before that I made a mistake coming here and leaving my established carrier. Please allow me to vent about all that is bad here in the sand.

[typhoonpilot]

LHR Rain:

I'll agree with you on some things, but disagree on others. I'll also allow you to vent, but why dwell on all that is bad ? There is lots of opportunity here in Dubai. A shrewd person can make some nice investments or start a business with a little time and effort.

I'm not actually a " Yank ", I'm from California and we're neutral :cool: Your information on U.S. airline pilots is somewhat skewed though, the big salaries at the majors are gone forever. The pilots remaining at my former carrier have seen a 40 to 60% reduction in pay from pre 9-11 levels. They also lost 70 to 90% of their pension in the debacle after 9-11.

I'm not a DEC and I disagree with the policy here at Emirates. In fact, I wouldn't have entertained coming here if the DEC program had been in place prior to my joining. It is probably the single worst thing they could have done to adversely affect morale.

Good guess on the Asian experience. How it correlates to the pay system here, I don't know. I made a lot more money there than I do here, alas that job disappeared with the Asian Economic Crisis.

TP

[LHR Rain]

Tyhoon

So you are from Calfifornia and what do you mean you are neutral? Does not the government set policy for all of the US or did CA opt out? Aren't all people from the US "Yanks" with no disrespect meant?
Even with all the paycuts the US took are they still leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the world still. I am told from a friend (I know realiable information) that US Air narrowbody capts still make about $130,000 plus benifits. Southwest captains top out at $200,000 and Delta about $150,000 after they took a 30% pay cut. Probably more to come later though. Did you ever work in the US and if no how come? That is where the money is and I know if I had a green card or a passport I would be there. A captain here said that American Eagle captains get $90,000 a year for a 50 seat RJ. That is good especially if they have a union there. And are not the only pilots to lose their pensions the ones that voted to get rid of the pensions? If that is true don't they only have themselves to blame?
Maybe the $375,000 a year widebody jobs are temporarliy gone but they have to come back and even if they don't (in your scenario not mine) the US still make a lot of money. Go to airlinepilotpay.com and see for yourself. I don't know how realiable that site is, maybe you can help me out with the info.
Cheers

[typhoonpilot]

LHR Rain:

Envy is one of the 7 deadly sins.


TP

[330 Man]

LHR Rain,
I encourage you to get that green card and take your best shot. You will be in the right seat for 15-20 years making at best in the 15th year 90,000US as an F/O. There are pilots at the major US airlines who are furloughed and will never be recalled. Some have been furloughed for over 10 years. The most junior pilot at Usair was hired in the late 80's. A narrow body capt at usair makes 120000 us and works 90 hours a month to get it. Before you spout you expert knowledge based on the word of a friend, I would try to learn a little before opening my mouth.

The fact that you question TP about American aviation based on the information from a friend is a very telling indication about your methods. There is I believe, only 1 American here that did not spend many years flying in the states before coming here. This is not our first choice we would all rather be home. We had no choice. But hey, you go and get that green card and maybe you can do beter!

And by the way, I doubt any Eagle Capt is making $90000 but if he is then it is only after 20 years with the company, and you will not see a $375,000 wide body job in the states in your lifetime.

330 Man

Calling someone from California a yank is like calling a Scottsman or Irishman a Brit. Not well advised.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

LHR dude. I suggest you take a break mate and stay off the diesel. You are thrashing around on these forums getting in a right mess. Perhaps some anger management is required http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/aktion/action-smiley-060.gif



330 Man A Brit is someone who lives in the British Isles. That includes Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland. You corrected someone refering to those from CA as a yank, so just my 0.02c

SyB :zzz:

[White Knight]

LHR man - does the sky fall on your head every day of your life? How sad!! :{

On the last point, my passport says British, but I am in fact ENGLISH:E :cool: I understand where you're coming from TP.

[Obfuscation]

Sheikh,

To be absolutely correct, I believe that what you refer to as British Isles is in fact the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. Great Britain refers to England, Scotland and Wales only. The full name of the UK has also been referred to as "The United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland and Berwick-Upon-Tweed". Berwick-Upon-Tweed is a border town between England and Scotland and because its nationality was in dispute it was constitutionally enshrined as a separate entity.

Obs

[max AB]

Gee...I bet the Berwick - Upon - Tweedians were pissed with that outcome. 330 Man I am sorry to tell you, regardless of what Californiacatians call them selves, the rest of the world calls them Yanks, just like the rest of the country. (In the nicest possible way of course...)

[rumblytumblypoo]

It was for that fact, that Berwick-Upon-Tweed was officially at war with Russia as it was missed from a treaty. Only recently did the Russians sign a peace treaty with those Berwick-Upon-Tweedians.

I really must get out more !

[LHR Rain]

330 and Typoon

Your relpies were a little harsh. I did not mean "Yank" in a derogatory or mean way to you or to your compartriots.
Having said that you basically answereed my questions but were trying to contradict and disparage me at the same time. Okay a US Air capt makes $120,000 while I said $130,000. I was not that far off. I guess you valadiated my point on SW and Delta by not metioning them as well as the pension issues by your silence. Any by the way how can a US airline fly 90 hours a month? Won't they time out by the end of Sept each year?
I guess why you left the US it was not the green fields that you signed up for but I believe you have to admitt it is still pretty good compared to the rest of the world. I know that I would start at the bottom and it would take years to make the left seat (if I got a green card) but you have to compare apples to apples. How much does a Delta or United 777 captain make compared to the rest of the world? Plus with the added benifits of labour laws to protect you. We have no protection here. Look what they did to the JNB guys.
Just because you are not making as much as you did back home don't take it out on someone who questions you.

[typhoonpilot]

LHR Rain:

I don't know why I bother replying, you just don't seem to get it even when presented with facts. The market in the United States was horrible post 9-11. 10,000 pilots were furloughed from the major airlines. The vast majority of jobs they could get were at the regional airlines for $45,000 per year to start ( as captain ) or Netjets for $27,000 per year to start as an F.O. Some of the bigger airlines were hiring but not in big numbers.

Since you bring up both Delta and Southwest I will mention them. A long time ago in my first commuter airline interview the question was asked, " where do you see youself in three years ". My answer was, " as a pilot for Delta Airlines ". For a period of about 7 years I continually applied and tried to find a way into Delta. Not having been a Naval Aviator or having flown the Space Shuttle ( or perhaps because I'm from California ) they have never called me for an interview. So just because you WANT to work somewhere doesn't mean you CAN work somewhere. Southwest is slightly different. Southwest requires a pilot to have a 737 type rating before being hired. How you get it is up to you. I live my career by a code that I will never pay for my own training. Southwest wasn't an option until I could get a 737 type rating for free. I do, in fact, have one now and Southwest did call me for an interview last year. I sat down and figured out the plusses and minuses and came to the realization that I would rather be here than go to Southwest. Monetarily over 20 years the jobs come out equal. Career satisfaction wise, Emirates comes out way ahead.

The point about how much a Delta or United 777 Captain makes is moot. Even if they were hiring, guys our age would never see the left seat of any of their airplanes if hired today.

Again, I'll tell you that envy isn't very becoming. You can envy a Delta or United 777 Captain all you want, but you nor I will ever see that position so why even bring it up ?

Just because you are not making as much as you did back home don't take it out on someone who questions you.

I make a lot more than I would of back home, that is the point I am trying to get across to you.


TP

[etops777]

TP

Well said...:ok:

[Brix]

Well at least things seem to recover a bit in the States. At Continental everybody who has been furloughed after 9/11 is now back in the saddle. And they continue hiring.

[330 Man]

Brix,
Unfortunately Continental is the only one recalling. American will furlough more, and the others will spend years before recalling.

TP. Well said!

LHR Rain,
I did not bring up Delta or Southwest because I do not know the southwest contract, and Delta is evolving daily. I think Delta will be in bankruptcy before the end of the year, the salaries have droped 30% and will drop in the future. the pilots gave the company 20 years to make up the retirement fund shortfall, and that may not be enough. Delta is the highest paid in the industry, and the chances of you or I being hired there are non existant.

What Pension issues are you refering to? Usair pilot pension was terminated and taken over by the government in April of 2003, and the average loss per pilot was nearly 75% of their accrued pension. The United pension fund was terminated and taken over by the government last month. Southwest has a very poor pension plan that only benefits the senior pilots. Northwest Pilot pension fund is nearly 3 billion dollars in the red, and it is the same at every other airline. The government pension agencey estimates that the total underfunding of the airline pension fund in the us to be over 15 billion dollars.

I am making almost as much as I was making at home, and I will be a break even this year. Next year I will make more here than I would have in the states. This is a better job, and a better position.

I am not attacking you! I am only saying that you do not have the experience or knowledge to compare Emirates to any airline in the states. Aviation in the states is not good at all unless you are at one of 4 airlines. I am better off here.

Regarding the union, the JNB crew would have benefited greatly, but it is my experience that the union did more harm than good at my last company. I lost my pension, took over a 50%pay cut, and kept moving downward in position and aircraft. And the MEC voted to approve it all while being paid a full salary from the union. You can have it!

And finally, between leave, training, and sick you can fly 90 hours a month and still stay under 1000 per year which is the FAA limit.

[Dropp the Pilot]

330man, Typhoonpilot, thanks for your posts.

It's gratifying to know there are at least two adults working at Emirates. I hope that group continues to grow

[ernestkgann]

Must be three including you then Dropp. Not much fear of that group getting much bigger if the present management culture prevails.

[turtleneck]

that's exactly the point. it's still not bad, if you consider the whole package (yes 330man) however ernestkgann hits point blank: blind arrogance is not really set to sustain it, isn't it.

[davidletterman]

Very mature indeed.... you guys should be airline managers...

A pilot's worst enemy is no other that the guy sitting accross the throttle quadrant. You guys keep making your educated points and you will make us eligible to another paycut!

I am off to get some more vaseline...

[Quod Boy]

Dropp,are you an office boy?

330 Man,nicely explained to those of us,less knowledgible on the US situation and perhaps you are here through circumstance,rather than choice.Good luck. For those who chose to come to EK to further their careers,it has been a mixed bag.Early commands,good flying was the attraction,and in the main delivered.Until approximately 2 years ago.It has IMHO eroded continually and through no need. EK is hugely successful,so why treat the single most important asset that affects safety with such contempt?It appears nobody who could prevent it,has done so,we are isolated and not represented,please suggest an alternative view if I am wrong.Who represents the pilots?Who defends us?

No doubt Dropp,you and the other "adults" would do he job for free,if it means stardom,greatness,office days,weekends off,and your own car parking slot and secretary.

Back to kindergarten for me with the naughty little boys.QB
;) :D

[BYMONEK]

DAVIDLETTERMAN

Once again onto the offensive for those that try and give a balanced view of Emirates.You're always quick to push the " you should be a manager " title onto those that dare to offer alternative points of views. Perhaps next time you post , why don't you enlighten us all here as to what really gets your beef?

Perhaps if you really hate it here as much as you claim you could use that vaseline of yours to 'slide' off into another job.

Still here making you laugh.........

Regards

Your worst enemy who sits on the other side of the throttle quadrant :bored:

[LHR Rain]

I belive that 330 man does not tell a complete accurate picture of how it is in the land of opportunity. Both United and US Air pilots voluntarliy gave up their pensions which has turned the US industry into a tailspin. They voted to get rid of them. Now Northwest Delta American etc etc are brow betting their pilots to follow US Air and Untieds "lead".
You might be making more here in the sand but I know it is more expensive in Dubai then England and must be loads cheaper than the US which often does not get factored into the equasion.
I guess we will just disagree on which area is better. I know the grass is usually greener on the other side of the path and I take your points seriously.

[davidletterman]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.....etc, etc, etc....

BM, thanks mate, I needed that.

[typhoonpilot]

I belive that 330 man does not tell a complete accurate picture of how it is in the land of opportunity. Both United and US Air pilots voluntarliy gave up their pensions which has turned the US industry into a tailspin. They voted to get rid of them. Now Northwest Delta American etc etc are brow betting their pilots to follow US Air and Untieds "lead".

LHR Rain that statement is so wrong that I don't even know where to begin.

Number 1: USAirways pilots did not vote to give up their pension. The company held a gun to the Union's head and said, "give up the pensions or we'll liquidate the company". The Union, with no vote from the pilot group, agreed to this demand. Faced with a 100% cut in pay for all members and the loss of their pensions or just the loss of the pensions, the Union did the only thing they could have. Perhaps they could have called the bluff, but then again maybe it wasn't a bluff.

Number 2: The pilot groups at both USAirways and United were trying to get the government rules regarding pension funds changed so that the funds wouldn't have to be terminated in the first place. The pension funding rules and those that put pensions funds up for termination never expected the "perfect storm"of the post 9-11 downfall of the financial markets and the company's inability to make required payments. They wouldn't allow for a reasonable time to recoup the underfunded amount with a payment schedule stretched over a longer period of time.

Number 3: The termination of the United and USAirways pension funds is not what has put the U.S. airline industry into a tailspin. It was the after effects of the post 9-11 downturn in air travel combined with the collapse of the stock market bubble of the late 90s. The airline industry in the U.S. was already beginning to suffer before 9-11 happened. The high end business traveller who had been fleeced for so many years was abandoning the major airlines in favor of corporate fractional operators. 9-11 only served to accelerate that process due to the percieved safety issues of travelling on a commercial airliner as well as the hassle of security screening. Into this market situation the Low Cost Carriers arrive to steal the holiday traveller away, further reducing load factors and eroding yield.


Typhoonpilot

[330 Man]

Fly one sector and get back on the prune, an discover that I voluntarily gave up my pension that I accrued for over 20 years! I am really stupid to do that! What could I have been thinking! I know, I was thinking that I would come to Emirates and make it all up! Thats it! The insanity of it all!


LHR RAIN: Saying that I voluntarily gave up my pension, is like saying you know what you are talking about.

For your information, the US government through the PBGC (Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation) filed a brief with the bankruptcy court encouraging the court to terminate the fund. The PBGC finding was that If Usair had to make up the shortfall in the pilot pension fund, Usair would shut down immediately! The court agreed. The union could have sued in federal court to stop it, but would have lost. (As I said in the earlier post, you do not have the knowledge or experience to comment on aviation in the states.)

You strike me as a young lad learning how to be an airline pilot, it is not what you thought it would be, and so you complain to the whole world. Be a man for once in your life. If you are so miserable, than quit and find something to do that you enjoy. Life is too short to be miserable. If you stay in this profession, you will find that it is full of ups and downs, never what you thought it would be, and in a constant state of change. Sometimes it is for the better, but not always.

To blame the pilots at Usair and United for this mess shows a total lack of respect for fellow pilots and this profession itself.

TP is right on in his explaination, and I can add nothing more.

330 Man

[Trashed Aviator]

Heres a nice one.
The DECs only had to sign a bond for 12 months of 12,000 usd yet the f/os on the same courses exactly signed for 3 years and 36,000 usd.
To me this would make the costing of it all baseless even in a local court.
Any ideas......

[Eurydice]

TA,

That simply is not correct for some of the DEC's. Many ARE fully bonded for the USD 36000 and 3 years.

That aside, the contract is so full of loopholes now, especially with the changes made by AAR. I don't think a court of law (even in Dubai) would have any problem in saying the bond is null and void, whatever the amount.

It would only take one affirmative decision to establish a precedent with which EK would be most uncomfortable.

Time to take out that legal insurance ? :ok:

[Quod Boy]

Guys,

You are all forgetting,the whole issue was COST NEUTRAL,you fools,there is nothing to moan about,DECs,FTLs,pay,its all cost neutral.

Anyone,who does not take the legal insurance cover on offer,right now via EPC,is an even bigger fool.

Off to the pub.QB
:cool:

[fullforward]

Please elaborate more, I missed your point here, sorry.
PM me if you want.

Thanks!

[donpizmeov]

I think QB is refering to the following.
A recent change to our pay, where we no longer get paid for leave, reserve, sim training, ground training, and have no min garantee for short sectors, was sold to us on the determination that it would be cost neutral.
Seems even the discount on boose via the EPC could not let us understand this one!!!
The legal thing is something that is new for our pilot group

Don

[fullforward]

Thank you for your explanation, Don.
T&Cs are continuosly spiralling down. When this process will stop?

[Quod Boy]

Thanks Don,correct,except we werent "sold" anything,it was forced upon us,without consultation,as usual,but you are quite right,I personally cannot in any form,shape or manner see how it was "cost neutral".

FF,the legal insurance is very new,and we need a min number to sign up,it is extremely cheap 900 dhs/pa,and I know the people involved put much effort in to secure it.

To not take this ,with NO OTHER insurance to help you currently in place,is IMHO an act of supreme folly.

Desert Nomad,you say that EK would have to pay across the board,indeed they should,to RETAIN and attract good quality staff,unless Im mistaken,they continue to make huge profit,so why not "pay the best,to be the best"?

Finally,I meant no disrespect toyou or your colleagues,bums on seats critical,but safety on the flight deck,in poor weather,high workload,can be I assure you fatal.

Agreed,if someone is leaving voice your concern,but such usis the culture here,to do so would result in retribution,IMHO.

And no Seaman,no news ref pay,but again,I think for many damage is done,unless it is corrected soon,significantly.QB

;)

[sluggums]

Quod boy, can you please send me some info on this insurance, I thought it was 300/month

[BigGeordie]

The 300 Dhs/month is for loss of licence due medical reasons, which is a completely different deal to the legal insurance.

[sluggums]

Will it be needed soon as I have heard that trade unions are to be legalized in the UAE within the next 6 months.:confused:

[donpizmeov]

Cast your mind back to SQ6...in deepest darkest South East Asia, on a dark blowy night. Horrible outcome. But without some legal help (in this case IFALPA) The flight deck fellas would still be rotting in some jail.
Now fast forward to some of the lovely spots in the world we get to fly into everyday. If one day you have one of those days, I think this insurance (the legal cover) would be worth its weight in gold. You pay a hell of a lot more than that to insure your car each year. For the sake of a few hours overtime I think the peace of mind is worth it.
Don

[sluggums]

Fair enough, where do we sign up:ok:

[sanddancer]

Back to the original thread - anyone got any definitive numbers on resignations last month - I've heard everything from 11 to 26 to 45!

Rumours re pay rise seem to have moved on from 5% up to 10% but to include the increment...anyone know any better?

[Global Nomad]

About one resignation per month.

Hardly an exodous.

[sanddancer]

Got to be more than that as I know two personally in the last month.

[Global Nomad]

I thought that two was close to being about one.

[sanddancer]

True, two is pretty close to one. However, with 1200 or so pilots, if I know two, chances are there are significantly more than that.

Statistics are bollox anyway, if it's two you're 100% wrong if it's one I'm 100% wrong - the question remains does anyone know the true figure?

[heywood u bleume]

29 pilots resigned this year.........so far.

[LHR Rain]

330 Man,

I get home from a trip all through the night and I find that you have enlightened me on the ways of the airline industry. If I only had your words of wisdom the trip would not have been so tiring or so long.
For your information I am not the one complaining about you and United dropping your pensions. Have you read the North American section of this forum? Airline pilots from all the airlines in the states feel that you did a huge disservice to them by cancelling your pensions because now their management is demmanding the same from them because they can not compete with the lightier US Air. Does this sound familiar? If not go to the site yourself and weigh in. Also Flight International had an article sometime late last year talking about the pension issues in the states and the downward pressure on pilot groups from other airlines because of your actions. Maybe not you specific but you as in US Air pilot group. I find it hard to believe that someone in your pilot group did not "vote" to shed that huge bonus you had. Did your leadership consult the pilot group and if not why? I guess your pilot group was just thinking of themselves and not the industry as a whole. Typical pilots!
You are right on some accounts though. I have no idea about PBCC and what they did to you or the court actions involving you. All I am going on is what I read, some not entirely accurate but at the same time not lies and falsehoods either.
Where did all that money you put into your pension for 20 years go? Don't tell me that US Air took YOUR money to pay their bills?
Maybe when I get to your age I will have the wisdom and experience that you seem to possess, I can only strive to reach that level. Thanks for the psycho-analyst. If you ever get sick of this job you can move on to higher paying endeavors in the medical field of psychology.

[PITA]

330 Man, or typhoon pilot. Please ignore this boy as he is not worth losing the time and effort in trying to educate
PITA

[etops777]

330 man and TP

Don't waste your time with this pilot wannabe.

[donpizmeov]

So Brix (he, boys and girls, is the fella who started the topic), what is the outcome of this story. Did you stay or did you go?
I hope whatever choice you end up making works out ok.
Don

[330 heavy]

LHR Rain says:

Maybe when I get to your age I will have the wisdom and experience that you seem to possess, I can only strive to reach that level.

Hopefully you WILL reach that age, but it is apparent from your unwillingness to listen to those who know EXACTLY what they are talking about ( 330 Man and Typhoonpilot ) that you will never posess their wisdom! But keep trying son! :ok:

330 heavy


P.S. If you would educate yourself on the intracacies of a Defined
Benefit vs. a Defined Contribution Retirement Plan and how the U.S. laws at that time required them to be funded, ( US Airways was funded to around 47% of the minimum required if I remember correctly) then maybe you would better understand what actually happened. ALPA did NOT give the pilots the chance to vote on the fate of the monies that had "supposedly" been set aside to fund their retirement. It was a last minute decision, made by the M.E.C. and NOT sent to the membership for ratification, based on financial data the company provided to ALPA. If there is blame to be placed, it should lie with the US Airways and ALPA National executive boardmembers, and the airline's mangement. They are the ones who gave away aprox. 75% of the pension.

Oh well, at least it's only money.:{ --- back to under my rock!

[330 Man]

LHR Rain,

It was a court order, supported by the federal government, and not the pilots that terminated the pension fund.

Practicing Psychology would be a relief when compared to babysitting a know it all like you on the flightdeck. You need to learn to lock and load before pulling the trigger.

My father used to say " never argue with the village idiot. Eventually we will not be able to tell the two of you apart".

You and I are done with this conversation!

Regards,

330 Man

[ratpoison]

Geeeez, what was the topic's heading all about again. I think i've forgotton.

[Pontious]

Meanwhile... back on the thread topic...

You could always try waiting until you are as far away downroute as possible, armed with a fistful of ID90's slope off back to the airport and jump on the first flight to normality, leaving your "allowances" behind for your now "ex-cell mate" along with a small note starting with "Dear F/O..." or "Dear Captain...".

All the while your former uniform, hanging all alone in the hotel bedroom wardrobe, pockets bulging with raw bacon, porn, empty minature spirit bottles, a pocket sized version of the Gideons Bible and reeking of liberally sprinkled alcohol.

It may not get you a good reference but it will give the rest of us something to talk about.

Only kidding!!! But seriously folks who's is the 4 stripe jacket on the comfy chairs outside the FMA's offices? It's lay there for weeks now.

:ok:

[shawarma]

one of the sa guys whs going says 16, only rumour but 3 more waiting for easyjet contracts, and 8 canadians in pool to go home again only rumour so as allways take with a pinch of salt............... :ouch:

[Dissapointed]

At least 30 applied to Virgin, no interviews yet, but they will be starting selections again in the new year.

[LHR Rain]

7 resigned in July. 4 captains and 3 FOs.
4 resigned in August. 3 captains and 1 FO I believe.

The number of the resignations are real but the catergories might be a little off. If you are an EK pilot just go to crew portal and under rosters, click on DUTY and type in RG and that will show you (according to the company) how many have resigned. I can't imagine the company leaving this option there much longer because that will be to much information that the pilots have access to.
Also you can type in RR and that will show you who is off the roster or Removed from Roster. They have that 777 DEC who almost hit the barrier listed there.

[PITA]

"They have that 777 DEC who almost hit the barrier listed there."

LHR Rain,

We know your one of the many here who deserve your command,(sic)
but try and not be anymore of a REAL TOSSER than you all ready are.

Said captain DID NOT almost hit the barrier.

Get your facts straight, or go home and grow up!

[Quod Boy]

3 Airbus Capts resigned last week.Warning given of the worst kept secret,more to come.

My numbers put the figure at 50 plus/minus 5 or so in last 18 months from both seats,both fleets.

Attrition of course,quite normal,Im sure the 25 applications a day will fill the gap and meet the expansion.

QB:cool:

[SPOILERS]

They are getting 25 applicants a day so why the full page ad in flight international!!! Aircraft will soon be parked due to lack of crew and they only have themselves to blame.

[SecurID]

When he mentioned that we were getting 25 applications a day, AS lost all credibility with an intelligent and motivated workforce. How can we now trust anything that he says?

[Ahad Adump]

Hey, tried the RG thing on crew portal...no joy.
Have THEY blocked it ??

[Ahad Adump]

Cheers Contacted.

Got it.

With that instructional technique you are wasted in EK.

[SecurID]

The list is NOT complete. There are 3 more Airbus captins that have resigned but are not shown yet.

[turtleneck]

why not give us the numbers right here? helps getting people off the mercator ordeal and getting constantly bumped out of adopt.
thanks ttn

[Alphaprot]

It's not a big secret, there are a total of 9 Airbus Captains (mostly trainers) resigning this month. They are off to the South African venture, initially flying Gulfstream G5's I believe. TCAS has been informed and they will all have their resignations in by the 3rd week in Sept.
Guess that will make things a trifle tight over the new year!

[Red Hackle]

From a very good source, apparently the SA deal is very different to the rumours that have been floating around as obviously the boys dont want the real facts known yet. Wait and see what materializes. Why are most of the guys apparently ex SAAF DC3 drivers? Must be a good reason!

[6853]

An african government are looking for ex DC3 lads to fly eight of their recently purchased a/c. Supposedly fitted out as gunships. Hence the ex SAAF drivers possibly? The GV is the code for a new hi tec type of canon specially adapted for side firing gunships. Yes, the boys will be operating GV's! Hope the money is good.

[Red Hackle]

Thanks 6853. The first good gen I've heard with regard to the rumour, For the first time it matches the other info I have received. Good luck to the boys.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Dont forget the 100 crews needed for A340 op in Australia.
Virgin.
Its not such a long shot I believe......................:ok:

PS. forgot to mention the seniority list at cbc has not been updated since May, must be hiding some dark secrets..........

[Ahad Adump]

Apart from the ex 44 Sqn DC3 drivers.
2 Ex RAF Navy Helo sub hunters.
1 Mechkican with short field, jungle strip, night experience.
1 Multi-lingual Kraut with South American connections.

This is like a 60's war movie, all recruited for being good men who will never bitch, back-stab, dob-in or report their mates and are ALWAYS willing to meet for a beer or 10 after landing.

EK recruitement dept should take notes here.

[6853]

Also fitted with armour plated gear bays, fuel cells and canvas control surfaces changed to light non flammable composite material. Not sure what has been done to the engines, anyone know. I'm sure they need something better than the strellar mods fitted previously? Hope there's a fridge for the beers on board!

[FlyMD-12]

Hi,


Just wondering why a lot of Cap;s (and others) are trying to move to EK?

Thanks.

[journeyman]

I'll tell you why, FlyMD-12 : because I can unequivocally state, without fear of contradiction, that EK is a much better proposition than Outer Mongolian Airways (OMA) and at least on par with Turkmenistan International Air Services, not to mention a whole host of other less well-known carriers.

[biff dup]

Is it just my computer or has the facility to see who (and how many) have resigned - using RG on the duty code - been removed?

Was working a few days ago but now doesn't seem to want to. The RR code - removed from roster - still seems to work.

[MR8]

Don't blame your computer, it's your computer skills... hehe :E
Still there, they only removed the last day of the month for these guys, so if you look at the 29th, you can still see 3 local guys and 1 English sounding bloke can stop working in September...

MR8

[dunecoon]

Hi Guys,

Just wanting a little info on getting the hell out of here.

1. What's the story with the bond if you haven't completed your 3 yrs?
2. Is it an easy process?
3. I know EK are in breach of contract (well mine anyway). Can anyone give any reasons to back up my early retirement?ie reasons why I shold not have to pay the bond? I have a good list but anything else would be appreciated. eg FTDL
4. Any need to get a attorney involved?

Cheers to all. I think this place is going t......ties up:yuk:

DC

[Desert Whine]

But at the recent fleet meetings they said everything was going well... :ooh:

The cabin crew have some good techniques if you're planning on doing a runner. Mainly the English, I believe.

[Obfuscation]

Perhaps the FO's who have recently left can enlighten those still at Ek as to what the penalties were for breaking the bond. Have any got out of the repayment and is there good cause to do so? There are many that I am aware of who are only here due to the constraints of the bond. How does it stand up legally considering the Ek may be in breach. The contract is very vague as to specifics...deliberately so I'm sure, but that doesn't give the company carte blanche to do what they like. Any good lawyers ready to take on this one?

[ratpoison]

Dune,

Ckeck your PM's ol'mate.

[BBJ King]

Dune:
How did they breach your contract? I think a lot of the "new" guys are looking for a way out.

[mach-hog]

:cool:

dunecoon

don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out

[dunecoon]

Mach-Hog

I would rather have the door hit me on the arse on the way out then have it severely violated over the next couple of years my good friend!!!!!

:ok:

Ran out of KY long time ago in this industry.

[LHR Rain]

Dunecoon,

Spot on Mate! Mach-Hog is from Canada and obviously in La-La Land. He tripled his salary by coming here and does not want to hear any criticism about "his" airline. If he choose not to fly for free over in the Great White North he might have a different perspective on the airline industry. Like how a real airline works, pays its pilots and treats its employees.
As for the training bond. Don't let that stop you from getting out of here. That piece of crap is not worth the paper it is printed on and probably illegal in most civilized countries.
Good luck to you.

[flyboy519]

Dunecoon ...

Having taken a former employer to court on the bond issue ( and losing :{ ) , the best info is to go to your country of nationality and seek info from a lawyer. Unfortunately, Canadian law takes a very dim view on those who try to walk on training bonds.

LHR Rain ...

The Canadian industry is in great disarray and to many ( including me ) the situation at EK looks alot better than we have gone through back home ( those from C3 / Royal / Jetsgo can agree with me on this one ). Weve simply gotten tired of not being able to plan and hold a long term career.

See ya ...

FB519

[sanddancer]

I left recently, I paid the bond, for a couple of reasons;

a. Although I took home legal advice and was told there would be no difficulty at all challenging it at home - the legal type did say 'but you have to get home first' - kind of a chicken and egg situation.

b. The legal type then said it would be better to clear it all up prior to leaving the UAE, which means local lawyer - v expensive and frankly, you can't be sure you'd ever get it tidied up to your satisfaction.

c. You can offset your provident fund balance against your liabilities so, although you won't walk with the cash you can soften the blow.

d. I jumped a bond once before and the employer made sure my next employer knew about it, as it happens I had preempted the situation by advising them of the circumstances so it was a bit of a damp squib - but could have been untidy.

e. You jump bond in the UAE and ever end up passing back through here standby for some drama - you can be sure they'll get you somehow.

One thing that did become apparent when I spoke to the lawyer was that in order to make your claim against the compnay completely watertight you should send a written letter to them, in a timely manner, after every perceived change to your terms and conditions registering your displeasure/objection to the change - if you do nothing it could be perceived as tacit approval.

If it's any consolation, paying to leave was the best thing I've ever done - now feel about 15 years younger and I have absolutley no regrets about going.

PM me if you have any other Q's

[LHR Rain]

FlyBoy,

No doubt that the Canadian airline industry is in the toilet much like the rest of the world. What I have a problem with is that most of the Canadians don't want to "rock the boat" and stand up for anything. Just this week we had two Canadians leave for JFK 3 1/2 hours late. This is a huge problem as you can imagine. The relief Captain who was from SA told SMNC that he was not going and booked off. I fully realize that we do not have a union here but when you leave DXB already into discretion that is no way to get the rightful 4 pilots on the trip. Plus you are not suppose to use discretion leaving your home base. So these Canadians were on duty for over 18 hours. Clearly that is unacceptable and I am sure that you will agree with me on this one.
Just because you make more money here does not mean you should be treated bably or accept such behaviour. Otherwise you are just a highly paid prostitute. The money is good (better that at home) so I will put up with said treatment. That just does not fly.
With regards to the bond the company is not going to sue you over the amount when they know it is questionable to begin with. A training bond is nothing more than an acknowledgement from the company that they are not paying what the industry does and they are going to use some artificial means to keep you were you are. Leave and let them sue you.

[Not from here]

The actual FDP was 1825 the maxuim allowed even by EK without a ULR agreement is 1800, curently the JFK is using 3 pilots and no SULR , they did get another Capt and F/O so 4 pilots but still with the FTL max 1800, was lucky nothing happened, not to mention landing below div fuel 6000 kilos!!!!!!!
Must have had some good reason to get to JFK

[sanddancer]

LHR Rain - you missed the point slightly - if you don't settle your 'account' with the company (and that can include agreed repayment terms I'm told) - there is no way to leave other than by doing a 'midnight flit'

While for some this could (indeed has) worked, it's very untidy and you need to be sure that you are cognisent of the implications.

At times I was seriously tempted to hang up the uniform, box the manuals and pile the crappy company furniture into a bonfire but having considered the pro's and con's I just paid up and f'd off.

I got the impression from the pay office that very few have dodged the bond - but that could have just been b-s. Be aware you also get nailed for the balance on your housing account (if you've opted out) and the furnishing allowance - I offerred to pay them what I'd managed to sell my company furniture for - but as it was 10% of the amount they asked for it didn't go down too well!!

[flyboy519]

LHR Rain ...

With respect to the JFK incident, you and I are in total agreement.

As for the bond, read sundancers post and mine was pretty much the same.

FB519

[LHR Rain]

Bond issue understood.
The Canadian JFK incident is not. That is very clearly unaccetable. What does the FAA think of such actions by our pilots?

[in limbo]

What happened ?
What is this JFK issue?
Do tell.

[LHR Rain]

Read Not From Here post. That sums it up in a very broad nutshell.
Two Canadians flew over the max duty time to JFK and then landed under the diversion fuel limit. Was this because they were tired and not thinking clearly?
We deserve some answers!

[in limbo]

Seems a bit weird to me.
Why would you leave knowing you would bust, and as far as fuel????????? Flight planning would seem to be the screw ups there. That being said you would be watching your fuel at each check point and see the problem with time to divert.
Not good guys!:uhoh:

[unablereqnavperf]

Guys your surely not surprised by Canadian pilots landing short of fuel, I mean at least these guys had some in the tanks!

I've worked with a quite a few Canadians some very good and some very bad, and quite liberal with the legal stuff.

[fatbus]

lhr, where can I find the info wrt not leaving DXB in discretion I would really like to see that on paper

unable, funny thing I've flown with some really good and some really bad guys from the UK so does that that make the Canadians tha same as the Brits

[LHR Rain]

If you would look at the postings you would find that I did not compare good and bad Canadian pilots. I did however say that I wish the Canadians had a little backbone every now and again. Just because they tripled their salary by coming to EK is no reason to fly over 18 hours just to get to NY and land on fumes.
I don't know where the discretion rules are spelled out but is it common sense not to leave your home base knowing you are going to over the duty time limit? And 18 hours to boot! What was so important that those Canadians had to go to NY?
Answer to your question is yes there are good and bad UK pilots as well.

[White Knight]

"Commit to destination" - not rocket science really is it chaps??

LHR rain - you got some serious issues matey;) ;)

[dooner]

LHR

funny I just looked at the crewlist for the flight in question and other than the one Canadian I can see of the four, I do know the other skipper was a former Trainer, a very competant pilot and certainly not from across the other side of the Atlantic.

18 hours is a little ridiculous and having not flown the JFK run for more than a year now, I seem to recall that max duty day has always been a very grey area with the LR Ops.

I do remember every flight that left DXB for JFK was in discretion before you even left the gate, the window for 3 crew was only 20 minutes.

As far as landing on fumes go, what happened did they end up on another NAT Track at the wrong level, we all know that never happens, extensive holding in the terminal area, never happens. Could they have exercised their option to "commit to destination" as per the fuel policy, only they know for sure.

As far as back-bone goes there are many of the Canadians who are far more vocal than you may realize, only it is done directly to the people involved and not here.

Nothing to do with the original post I know but just a couple of Fils worth


Take care

Dooner

[menard]

Just a thought

4 pilots

FOM annex 5, page 72 para. 7.2....

[Left Coaster]

Dooner!
As always the voice of reason...seems that the only way to find the facts is to actually look for them, 'cause if you listen to the "rainman" you won't find any!
Cheers and hope to run into you out there one day
LC

[heywood u bleume]

Let's squash this thing about dispatching into discretion. It's perfectly legal. See FOM, Chap 21 Pg 35 para 18.1. I agree with Menard in that if they went to JFK with 4 pilots it would be reasonable to invoke Annex 5 to the FTL. So long as they complied with all the requirements and departed by 1200 local then discretion is not a player.

Have a nice day

[heywood u bleume]

EH

Been here for quite a few years now and been into disgression only once, and that was due to an unserviceablility down route. By the way, the Commander can only use his disgression to extend an FDP due to an UNFORESEEN DELAY. A flight that cannot be completed within the allowable FDP, because the flight time is simply too long, has been illegally planned. (FOM Chap 21 Page 5 para 2.2). That's why you saw that undignified scrambling around at late notice to use Annex 2 DUBAI(1) to get flights back from Shanghai when they changed from winter to summer schedule and dropped the 3rd pilot. If the captain was allowed to use disgression in this case they would simply have gone for that. The Company relies a lot on pilots not understanding the FTL and luckily for them a significant number don't. I think it is no coincidence that the interpretive notes in para 18 "Aircraft Commander's Discretion to Extend a Flying Duty Period", still say
"Guidelines - Detailed Guidance to be Added", and have done for over a year.

Vot to do??

[in limbo]

Are you telling me that the F/O or other crew members ave no choice about extending their duty day? It is all up to the Skipper?
:confused:

[uplock]

I have to agree that the whole FTL in EK are a mess(deliberatly) with the issue of Discretion and Variations that are applied by our airline.

The end result no one knows whats going on...

The Shanghai example listed above was difficult to understand, as the company told us in an email that it would depend on the actual flight planned time on the day if the variation would be applied....funny I allways thought that the variation was applied to the Sked times but comercial reality dictated otherwise in that case.

Its sobering to remember that Emirates do not issue our Flight Crew Licence (GCAA do) at the end of the day we have to answer to the GCAA not to Emirates for any FTL excursions.

[heywood u bleume]

Mr Limbo,

I understand English is not your first language, but perhaps you could read the reference: "An aircraft Commander may,at his discretion, AND AFTER TAKING NOTE OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF OTHER MEMBERS OF THE CREW, extend an FDP beyond that permitted in paragragh 13, Tables A or B, provided he is satisfied that the flight can be made safely". It is the Commander's decision, but he should check that the rest of the team are up for it. He would be very unwise to proceed if they were not and anyway, if you're not fit to fly you have a legal obligation to remover yourself from the flight. Now perhaps we can get me on Mastermind....specialist subject - THE BLEEDING OBVIOUS

[BBJ King]

heywood,

I is an extremely good point you bring up there and you are absolutely right. Not all CDRs are of the same opinion as you are which I find a bit scary.

[menard]

Funny how some guys are so quick to jump to conclusions!!!!

Immediately assuming that their colleagues are idiots or irresponsible individuals...

Nice professional behavior....

[Crazycanuk]

Ok here goes. These are the facts.

When we left DXB, we were within the FDP limitations as described in the fom ie. using actual cfp flight times. As the flight continued it looked like we would land with 15 minutes to spare.

Then we were put into a hold. This is the reason we went over the 18 hour limit. In my view it was perfectly legal and within the scope of the fom. Also if we felt tired we had the option to give control to the relief crew who had been on duty for 14 hours. This was discussed on the day and we felt it was not required. Hope that settles that "issue."

As for the fuel "issue." During the hold we were given an expect further clearance time of 25 minutes. We had 35 minutes of hold time. No problem. By the way that does not include the 700 kgs of fuel that the fms keeps in the route reserve. Now at the time we prepared for a diversion to Newark just in case. At this time we easily met the requirements for commit to destination (about ten different runways and the weater was cavok). I have no problem landing with final reserve. We at Emirates and indeed all airlines plan on that possibility for every single flight. As it turned out we landed at JFK with enough fuel for the go around and diversion to Newark. What was stated earlier in a post is simply not true. Even if it was, I have no problem with landing with less than alternate fuel as the requirements for commit to destination were fulfilled. That is that "issue".

Now the big "Issue". Should we as pilots depart DXB knowing we will enter discreation? The answer is, it is up to the commander plain and simple. On that day I felt I could do it without comprimising safety. One of the other pilots decided not to do it and I supported him. If you know who it was then just ask him. Now some might feel that not going into discreation will force the company into rethinking The system. Might work I don't know. As for me I don't have agendas along these lines. On the day I will try to do the flight, but if I feel it is unsafe then the buck stops here (that is what I am payed for).

Now for the Canadians with no back bone "issue". You guys have your opinion and I respect that (I am Canadian after all). But if you think "I" would back down from any issue regarding work then you are simply misstaken.

Ps. I guess my identity is comprimised. Oh well.

Crazy.

[menard]

Here you go LHR rain,

enough said; puts in perspective your credibility.

BTW If I was C Canuck, I would have let you more rope to hang yourself before answering to your assumptions....

[picu]

QUOTE - By the way that does not include the 700 kgs of fuel that the fms keeps in the route reserve.

Just a side note, with no intention of critisizing (spelling?!) at all. The fuel figure in the FMS prediction page for Reserve, should be input as a percentage not a hard figure (as the uplink loads it.) Hence as the flight gets nearer destination, the reserve fuel remaining unburnt would transfer (figuratively) to the EXTRA figure and the real holding potential is then shown to the crew. Minimum reserve fuel amounts are for dispatch/planning purposes only.

I've noticed that there seems to be a lot of infighting going on in these forums nowadays. Pilots versus cabin crew in other forums and now pilots versus Canadian pilots. I think this is a huge shame. The last thing we want is friction at work because some d***head posts ridiculous comments on these forums about his/her colleagues and then the rest of the group are branded in the same manner. The Canadians are a great bunch of people to work with, and before anyone asks, I'm European.

Crazy Canuck, would strongly recommend you find a new identity on PPrune !!!!

4HP, how difficult would it be to introduce a spell checker on this website??!!!!:O

Virtually impossible - if appearances are important then cut & paste your submission to something like Word to verify the spelling. Generally speaking there is no requirement to have perfect spelling on this site - as in other forums, what is greatly appreciated is the use of capital’s, where appropriate, the avoidance of using all capital's (shouting) as well as the avoidance of making posts in SMS fashion, using abbreviated spelling. School's out - carry on. 4HP

[menard]

On the 345, when you get closer to destination, and the 5% (or 3% or tonnes) inserted (or uplinked) in the "reserve" field of the "fuel pred." page becomes less than 700 kilos, it defaults to 700 kgs, you cannot overwrite it with a smaller figure...

Not trying to be smart...just a precision...

Menard....:rolleyes:

[White Knight]

As for the question of Canadian pilots, well I've always thought they are jolly decent chaps:ok: Good to work with..

[Crazycanuk]

picu.

"Crazy Canuck, would strongly recommend you find a new identity on PPrune"

Why? I've done nothing wrong.

Crazy

[picu]

Thanks Menard, didn't know that!

Crazy, I don't think you did anything wrong, far from it. What I meant was that now that almost everybody can know who Crazycanuck is ( from your post and through the portal/roster/trip info) you'll have to be careful what you write on this website in the future as your anonymity is no longer guaranteed. Unless that doesn't bother you of course.

Kind regards

[Crazycanuk]

picu.

Point taken, thanks.

Crazy.

[dooner]

Hey D

your call on the identity swap, gives a little "human touch" to things knowing who certain guys are, I use my grade school nickname so no secret as to who I am (comes from te last 4 letters of my name).

In the end couldn't give a rats-ass who knows who I am, I don't post unless I feel strongly about something anyway, and I will stand behind what I do post, unlike some who lurk here waiting for ridiculous things to come up like your trip.

Stick to your guns (as they say), hey you playing hockey this year, take your frustrations out on the ice like the rest of the no "back boned Canadaians" do. Makes for some nasty bruises in the morning, plenty of sour looks from the wife bit it just wouldn't be hockey without it

Dooner

yeah I know forgot to spell check on the last post, but the damn site punted me out the first time for "timing-out" so quickly typed the last one, mind you too many scraps in the corners over the years has probably dented my brains anyway

Dooner

ok I know I am not that stupid, I just typed a reply to my last post and after hitting send it vanished into cyberspace, so just to reiterate I did forget to spell check my previous post as the site keeps "timing-out" and punting me off

too many baoy-checks in the corners over theyears, brain cell diminishing every year

Dooner

[readytocopy]

How does one leave EK without paying the bond? Has anyone done it recently and how did you go about it? Do you just leave, takeoff and not tell anyone? or do you tell them you want to leave and you are broke and cannot pay them? What can they do to you?

[Desert Whine]

Not done it myself... You should have a chat with some of the hosties. Apparently there's a ritual you should follow.

Not entirely sure how it works but I believe it begins with taking out a bank loan and ends with your uniform laid out neatly on a hotel bed.

[Fox3snapshot]

Take out as many loans from as many banks as you can, abscond on your next Melbourne trip and get your mates to send your photo from the Gulf News with your company denying having anything to do with you so you can pin it on your new crew room wall!

:E

[SecurID]

abscond on your next Melbourne trip

Why would he want to go to Melbourne when he's from North America?

My advice mate? go and see the Fleet Managers, tell them your reasons, tell them you are leaving, tell them you are an honest person, tell them you want to repay the bond as that is what you signed up to do, that you are sticking to your side of the bargain. Arrange whatever finance you can in order to repay the bond and then go head held high and not looking over your shoulder for the rest of your career.

But that is what I would do. Moral issues aside, in the first world, a training bond is only enforceable if the skills acquired are transferable. For example, company A pays for your training, you sign a bond for $36K and you start working for them repaying your bond as you go. Company B then starts hiring people with the skills that Company A gave you, but at 30% more salary; then the training bond becomes a valid point. The fact that the Boeing or Airbus rating is on your nice shiny UAE gold ATPL is worth considering as the validity of our licence and its associated ratings, is worthless outside of the UAE. But then that is in the first world...

Good luck with whatever path you choose, maybe you could let us all know the outcome?

[Uplink]

Ask a certain B777 capt who has recently absconded. Aparently everyone knew he was going to do it, but he did it anyway. I think his training bond was paid off, but the banks would like to have a word with him concerning the extremely large amount of money he owes them. He is now blacklisted here for sure.

They are looking for him in his home country where he has gone. He is one guy who will be looking over hs shoulder for the rest of his life.

[Fox3snapshot]

Lighten up mate, if you are in Dubai then you know you need to have a sense of humor in the sandpit.

Lets face it do you believe people's profiles and more importantly if Uplink is with the company there are enough resources around in the fraternity that could offer sound advice without having to tramsmit to the world your intentions......

:rolleyes:

[BYMONEK]

Got to agree with Uplink and SecureID on this. The Cabin Crew may well have got away with it in the past but their's is hardly a career in the same way ours is. Most of them will never return to flying anyway. We, on the other hand are in this for the long term and may find getting another job harder than we thought if we are carrying some 'history'.

How many times have we all used that saying "Aviation is a small World".

You'd better believe it!

[Dissapointed]

There is the guy down a few topics who wants to leave and the company are telling me now that it is critical with the crew numbers, but how many did really leave? I asked two managers recently and got two different answers, and not by a little bit!!!!

[ekpilot]

I have to agree too. You will regret any decision to 'cut and run' unless you want to quit airline flying, or at least for the bigger companies. I have to agree with SID about the transferable skills, the bond only holds up (in the Western World) when the skills learned are actually transferable. In our case they are not, but I would not want to challenge it. Why not wait the three years? Forget about the command issues, enjoy your time and then quit, three years is really not that long. You then can leave with a clear conscience.

[ratpoison]

and ends with your uniform laid out neatly on a hotel bed
and lets hope there was a Hostie in it as well
:ok:

[max AB]

Ride your motor bike flat out into a parked bus (or just ride with consideration and care on Sheik Z Rd) either way, you will lose your medical. Training bond is forgiven plus you get loss of licence insurance....bargain! Unless of course you're dead.

[donpizmeov]

Further to what Max has written. If it does all go wong, you might be able to use your free 100kg of frieght to get home. This truely could be the low cost option.

Don

[SecurID]

...and by losing your medical you'll also get any provident fund payout as well! In fact, this plan sounds so good, I'm gonna buy me a motorbike! ;)

[145qrh]

I think, and I am sure the numbers, or even the management will back me up here, that the amount of pilots who have left this year is ........ well , wait for it, almost there, and the winner is ............ anyone know
????

[Ahad Adump]

OK I'll say the numbers the training planners are working with.

For 2005:

107 no shows
37 resignations

144 short in total +/- 10 %. That's why you work your butt off.

Now work from those figures. Some add, Global Noman subtracts. Those are the figures you will here in the training college, not from a source, from the horse himself.



Did Ethihad get 20% payrise ???

[mooguy]

I was cabin crew with EK in 1995, and even then the last week of leaving was a nightmare!!

Lots of running round, more rigmarole than joining, anyway, fellow posters here have told you what to expect.

On the other hand......half my batch did runners cos they hated it so much! Several egyptian male cabin crew racked up huge loans, and did runners, we were a bit astounded at their audacity at the time I must say! We later went on to find out it was more common than realised.

We all kept saying (as several of these guys then went back to Egyptair and are now pilots) that they would never be allowed back into the UAE, their names would be on a banned list at imigration blah balh....but they've since been back and living it up, so thats obvoulsy untrue!

My best friend absconded with her ID (which your supposed to hand in) she said she lost it, and used it for quite some time to come! Serves EK right if you ask me, they brainwash you into thinking you have it made, just to be working for such a "wonderful" airline! Most flight attendants and pilots that I knew who made the angst ridden decision to finally leave, moved on to much bigger and better things eventually. Good luck

[Kuronja]

Much bigger , much better...No its not ...its just different..its all perspective ..go to other forums...people leave companies, positions, countries , wifes, why ?

Its all about human nature , people think that greener pastures are elsewhere , its all what you make of it . For pilots there aren't many unknowns (fa's different story since most are tourists anyway )..packages are more or less within few perks , thousands etc...its all about where do you feel good ..taste is so debatable that is pointless arguing why does someone like this company or that company, EK or SQ or GF whatever...for me and I dont work for EK.... this region is good.. much better than crapy gloomy uk weather or n.american winters , taxes , cuts or mergers that will leave you jobless while shlomos and greenbergs of this world are buying their Hollywood mansions and deffending OJ's ...while on the other hand someone likes rainy days, taxes and so called first world....khalas ...shoot the c$@p now:ok: :sad: :cool:

[Mick Jagger]

Things are pretty green in my pasture. Not perfect but green enough. Might even be a little greener before too long!

[mensaboy]

I have no idea about the no shows, but if 107 is true, then that is shocking.

I do know from a colleague who went thru the resigning interview, that 60 pilots had resigned in 2005. This was after great efforts on his part to ascertain this info from the interviewer. Whether the information given was accurate is definitely debatable but in all likelihood, if anything, it was understated.

As for doing a runner, I don't believe that is a good idea. It might open some eyes back in Dubai, which might benefit those of us remaining, but I still believe that it is an unwise move. One would really have to be unfairly treated to be justified in those regards, IMHO.

[bushbolox]

I cant say too much on here but there is a secret underground organisation to smuggle EK pilots off the roster downroute. In return all that is asked is that you sign an affadavit stating that all that bolox about wanting a better lifestyle and who cares what seat i'm in was a cover for the real reason. An egotistical maneuvere to shortcut to a widebody command that went pear shaped.A job will be provided but only on the types on your real licence but no moaning about a night corfu is allowed.
If you sit alone on the right hand seat of the bar of the meridien at lgw with no cabin crew or colleagues to socialise with, you will be approached.

Keep Dissappearing.

Ps the no shows will decrease now that all you need to pass selection is some dodgy 737-200 time, a dodgy icao licence and a white(ish) skin. One mans hell is amnothers nirvarna.

[SecurID]

Keep Disappearing!!
Very good!! :D

But it is not all about the command. The airline is still showing upgrade times to be just over three years, still better than anywhere else, but is it all about commands, money etc? There is too much info here on Emirates for me to even contemplate adding to it but life in Dubai has changed. The so called 'lifestyle' that we enjoyed in Dubai has gone. There are no beaches to camp on anymore, they are building sites now. The quick drive to the local supermarket needs to be timed carefully otherwise you end up in traffic for an hour. 7 star hotels are passé, there's almost one on every corner now. Too many malls, too many records being broken, for some this place has lost the plot.

I am all for progress and change but cannot see any evidence to suggest that Dubai has done nothing other than become another Singapore or Hong Kong, and for many of us if we wanted to live in either place we'd have applied for SQ or CX.

There is too much concrete, not enough greenery (yes I know, It's a desert!) but they can have grass where and when they want it, primarily on the golf courses, but more expenditure on public areas would be welcome.

I could go on and on, but basically those that have left, or are thinking of leaving, are not happy here, despite the management spin on reasons given for leaving. After all, who would honestly say in their departure interview that they were sick of the changes, the lies, the lack of support and the overwork ethic that exists? Nobobody wants to burn bridges so it's just easier to say 'I want to go home....' If the management and HR want to propogate otherwise then that's fine, we're not stupid. Many are not happy here and that is why they leave.

[Uplink]

Ahad,

I am not sure I agree with your figures. I get copied in on recruitment status forms and the no shows you talk about are no where near the figure you quote. As far as resignations go, cant say I agree with that figure either. 2005 has been a busy year with lots happening. As has been stated before here, do you know the 37 pilots that have left. I dont think I can name 20.

The thing is there is no where else to go really. If you said that figure over an 18 month to 2 year period, I think I would agree. Lets face it though. The company more than doubled in size since I joined. It means now that there are more people pro rata to be disgruntled. I would like to think that with the appointment of the new recruitment manager, things might start to change. Not sure if you saw the latest FCN inviting pilots back onto the recruitment team. About time too. Very unhealthy with just an HR input in pilot recruitment. We seem to be getting some really nice guys, but the standard of some of their flying is shocking to say the least. The standard has definitely dropped. Or maybe now the bucket is starting to empty.

Prepare for several things. Firstly back to transition upgrades, secondly they will lower the standard of applicants experience. By that I mean take guys without Heavy jet time. Lets face it we have cadets who are on line now with 500 hours. The guys will join now with maybe turbo prop time (1000 hours) Thats just a figure I have thought of. The new pilot will then be "Emiratized" with no chance of a command for lets say 5 years. I think the standard will be good. Lets face it I remember most of the jet guys here went from a turbo prop to a jet. Whats the difference between say a B757/767 to a 330/777. Especially when there is a cadet programme here with guys having flown small aircraft being put on large aircraft. With the right training it is totally workable.

Finally the long awaited pay rise. Etihad are down the road now with a large pay rise looming. We are all mercenaries really and whoever pays the most gets the pilots. The bucket here is nearly empty and having taken 9 B777's this year, 12 next year plus extra 340's coming. 2007 will be the 380's turn. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to work out that pilots are desperatley needed. Something has to give. The question is what and where !!

[SecurID]

Uplink, may I be so bold as to quote you....

I try to state facts...

I just stated fact, which makes a change to the usual horse **** we read here...
As you seem intent on being a provider of factual, rather than rumoured occurrences, I certainly hope you are right. Your reputation as being a more moderate and balanced contributor rests on the outcome of your prophecies!

;)

[Ahad Adump]

Uplink

Good post man.

Is it true that transition upgrades are approved, but not implemented due to man power shortage?

[Cyberbird]

... well, just to contribute my views ...
last week, we had a cometogether of pilots, as one of the F/Os was leavin after 4 years for "personal reasons" (most likely s'thing went wrong with his upgrade - so, don't take that for granted though!) - and gave us a higly appreciated farewell down at a nice S-Z Road Pub ....

What worries me, that during the casual talk, i realized, that more than half of the bunch of guys (mostly F/Os) are fairely unhappy here - especially due to their very low income at EK - which is somewhere araound 18.000 Dhm /equals 4.900 U$ only!! - which is definitily NOT enough to cope with the spiralling living costs here; most of them can't save a penny of their salaries, as they struggle to pay their mortgages/ installments etc. back home;

consequently, a good percentage of those guys are planning to leave, as soon as their bond is finshed, as there are definitivley more and more opportunities opening up in the "old world"- with about the same salary, but in a civilized and slavery-free society;

To sum it up: Yes, the conditions down here have definitively deteriorated over the last years, building sites, concrete and dirt all over the place - the Jumeira Beach road a dirty building site since month now, the only park in BurDubai - including the palms ! - "taken out", to give way to the new (much needed!) railway station ...
Thus means, even less greenery downtown, and the housing and living costs still spiralling upwards!

It's time to move on, if we don't get a significantly payrise soon(> 20 % is considered to be a MINIMUM to be expected to keep the folks on the run - like Ethihad - which m ight help to compensate the lower life quality down here at the sandpit; My CV is on my computer already

:ok: :yuk:

[etops777]

If all goes well I will be out of here soon.......

My family and I can't wait;)

[Dissapointed]

Two interviews this year, offered both jobs and will be handing my notice in during February. I have had enough and am happy to leave. I will not be telling them lies at my departure interview, I will tell them exactly what I think, they deserve nothing less.

[ratpoison]

Dissapointed,

Good luck to you mate and well done on the other jobs. However, dont get too excited about the departure interview. Your "flight ops managers" and I use that term very loosely, plus your respective CP wont want anything to do with you. The interview will be conducted in a subdivided room, possibly your chair will be hanging out in the hallway and "interviewed" by some low grade HR admin clerk that continues to scribble in a book and nods every 10sec supposedly in total agreement with your spoken word. Now, we must ask ourselves. Has the 20 odd brothers that have left over the last year and gone through the same procedure made them change in any way. ???

[sanddancer]

I left this year and wasted an hour of my life doing the exit interview.

I watched what the HR underling was writing and it bore absolutely no resemblance to what I was saying - when I challenged him I was told it was being translated into 'management speak' to make it more readable - what he was actually doing was removing anything even vaguely negative about the company and particularly the managers.

When I asked what they did with the reports I was told they were collated and presented to management on a quarterly basis. Obviously so they can ignore them all at once!!

Still have absolutely no regrets over leaving...:O

[Uplink]

Secure,

Very kind of you to quote me. I only say things as I see them at the time. You know as well as I do that things change overnight. What is stated on reports may only be what we are meant to see, who knows.

I consider my self as you say, a balanced contributor. I try not to get involved in the speculation too much as I have been in this game too long. I try not to get excited by rumours but prefer the evidence as and when it happens.

The original thread was concerning how to get out of EK. Most people have the right idea about leaving in a correct manner. I dont think that jumping ship in the middle of the night is a good idea, as these things have a habit of creeping up on you. Not in a few months but a few years.

The Captain who left EK a short while ago has left a family and a huge debt for her to sort out. What a spineless prat for doing that. EK is a better place not having a unstable guy like that around. I only hope he gets what he deserves, because one dark night he may find himself in Dubai for whatever reason. I think a person who absconds in that manner does not want to continue his career in aviation. To leave and not pay a bond is one thing. To leave and not pay your debts I do not think is a good idea, but that is just my opinion. To leave your whole family to clear up your mess is just pure evil. Guys like that should be in prison. I know alot more about this gentleman which I am not going to put on here. I will say this though. You join a company and have a bond (which lets face it is only fair) Should you leave in whatever manner you choose then you have to face the music should it catch up with you a few years down the line. But then again thats just my opinion.

[ruserious]

I consider my self as you say, a balanced contributor.
Of course you do, who doesn't?
However when you comment You join a company and have a bond (which lets face it is only fair) and fail to point out the constant changes in T&C's, the fulcrum appears to be a little offset.
You don't receive management information without being part of the team. In this organisation you need to sell your soul, morals and integrity to be part of THAT team.

[Uplink]

RUSerious


I was of the understanding that the bond covered only your training. Unless you have signed a further bond for blood, sweat and tears.

I mentioned nothing about T&C's. Separate issue?

[616200]

Sanddancer U have lost 1 hour on your exit interview?:confused:
What should I say...I've lost only 10 minutes when the HR j@@@k suggested me to sign the resignation from my previous Company within 5 minutes 'cause He was busy with a meeting:yuk: :yuk:

[gl69]

A bond is NEVER fair and should be abolished! Nothing more than a company using artificial means to keep you in one place.

[Uplink]

I never said a bond was fair but on the other hand if you invested the thousands of dollars it costs to train me and after 6 months with virtually zero productivity I walked out. Would you be happy?

[flybystring]

The fairness or otherwise of the Bond depends on the type rating you came here with and the type your on. Unfortunatley a guy who arrived with say an EMB145 pencil jet rating and got a 777 or 330 type has the same bond as a guy who joined with an a330 or 777 rating and is on the same type. Unless of course your a DEC whereupon the bond is dropped by 2/3s to 12000 USD as opposed to $36,000 for everybody else if you came rated.

The bond is only fair if the company expended that or greater on you to train you. In most cases the $12000 would be more realistic. But if you needed the job at the time they had you by the balls. Now they will lick your nuts to get you to join.

Anyway counting the weeks to a course back in civilisation. No bond as already rated, no thanks to EK.

Lots of tax of course and I have to live in my own house with no threat of being moved out and having my life turned upside down by some TCN administrator who would have no problem if they moved you to a shanty town in down town Madras over 6000 Dhs.

I guess this should be my last post on EK and purge any referance from my PC. A sort of New year resolution.


Adios

[gl69]

Uplink you are right that the company spends money on you to train you. But I got news for you, that is the cost of doing business and all companies have to put up with that costs. Pay industry standard rates and treat your employees right and the company with have virtually a zero percent attrition rate. As I said before the bond is border line illeagal IMHO. You can not keep someone in "bondage."

[ratpoison]

Now they will lick your nuts to get you to join.
Bugger it, I knew I joined years before I should have. Maybe the next job.

[Uplink]

I am not saying I agree with a bond, merely that I understand why they do it. I agree that if you come with a type rating there should be no bond. Show me a major airline that doesnt bond.

As far as a bond being borderline illegal, I cannot say because I am not a lawyer. I have been bonded 4 times in my life. One bond in my early career was deducted from my salary each month over a 2 year period. If you then stayed an extra year they would give you all the bond money back. Of course no one would stay that long. My first bond was for a Navajo of all things. This was when jobs were very scarce. I satyed 2 months and they kept half of my monthly 6500 gbp pa salary. I cant rememebr how much but the pay was crap anyway. My 3rd bond was with a charter airline. It was for 5500 gbp over 2 years. It was fair as it was my first jet job. This bond now has come and gone.

I guess if I didnt want to stay then it would have been a gross inconvienience to me. As far as being fair, well I have had my share of bonds. It hasnt affected me because I have never been in the position of wanting to leave the company prior to my bond being paid off. I know my last company actually would not take any pilot unless his bond was cleared or agreed on. So I guess walking away from paying a bond is not good as it could jeopordize your career.

Is it ethical.......... probably not.

[PITA]

I came from the US, and there is no such thing as being bonded to go to work for a company.
Just because all of the other companies do it (bonding) it is an isue that is odd to say the least.

I do not understand that this issue is looked upon as normal.
What other worker gets bonded for training to operate a piece of company equipment?

And furthur more, why do we as pilots accept this as normal?

I am new to the ex-pat lifestyle, but I think that to be "paying for instruction" to operate a piece of equipment that is owned and operated by someone else for their benifit is ludicrious.

I do not care how you put this issue, but plain and simple it sucks, to say the least.

I also agree with the statement from a few replies earlier, that it is just a cost of doing business that should be borne by the company, and not the employee.

If he is paid well and treated fairly, there would be no fear of him leaving in the first place.

OK let the rest of you say your part...pro or con

Pita

[Cyberbird]

.... well "Uplink" - You're Way OFF man with your statement:

"Show me a major airline that doesn't bond"

O.K. There basically ALL the major North-American, Canadian, plus all the Big European operators - the likes of Air France, Alitalia, Lufthansa, Austrian, Iberia (as far as I know), KLM, SAS, Air Atlanta, BA (when i last spoke to my Ex-colleagues there) - just to name a few - and so on ...

To sum it up: Almost all the "decent airlines / Flagcarriers", who haven't to worry, that their pilots run for greener grass, just don't bond! Just simply due to the Fact, that they don't have to! Apparantly EK however has to worry (for good reasons!) that too many might leave, if they don't tie them up - due to the massively erosion of our conditions and payments over the last years! For example many of us have to work this year over x-mas AND New Year - No chance to get home and meet family and friends- That sucks!

And as i stated in the other thread: "EK-how to make a runner"
more and more will leave the sandpit, as the money and the conditions are not to appealing any more, and more positions coming up in the old, civilzed world! You bet!:E:{

[Vorsicht]

There certainly are a lot of problems at EK, but you can hardly call having to work over christmas and new year one of them.

The aircraft have to fly. Someone has to fly them. I'm sorry that it is your turn this year. I'm sure it will be mine next year.

[Uplink]

Cyber,

I will take your word for it. I have never bothered to look whether the other major airlines bond or not. The fact still stand though that in EK they bond.

I am not saying I approve but there is an option. You got the contract with the bond attached. So it was actually up to you whether to sign or not. If you are from Canada or the US and by the way you write (Hey Man !) I guess one of those, you have come from a place where there is no bonding. But you came here knowing there was a bond and you signed the bond. That with the knowledge that you didnt approve of it but wanted the job anyway. Sounds strange to me.

I feel very sorry for the guys who have signed bonds and dont want to be here anymore. I dont know what to suggest. I am fortunate to still like it here and like my job, but then I have no where else to go as it is all the same. By the way SQ bond and that would be the only other place I would consider.

[davidletterman]

If the contract is that good and the lifestyle so great, nobody would want to leave, therefore, no need for a bond!!

...right....

[Keith Discovering]

OK, my sh*t bucket is starting to get full (not the money one, as 9 years in the company and my finances are crap :hmm: ), but where to go???

Guys are leaving and looking, but what is out there that's better than EK? I know that's a subjective question based on what makes you happy or what you're looking for, but what jobs have guys been leaving for?

Being your typical Brit, I don't want to move much further East than Dubai, so closer to home is my best option. However, 5 days on, two off, multiple sector days doesn't sound too appealing and I know nothing about contract work.

Is commuting a better option with a larger airline? Seems pretty tiring...

Sorry to be so vague, but I'd appreciate your thoughts please

Cheers

Keith

P.S Sensible answers only please; i don't want this to be a bun fight...

[BYMONEK]

Did read in The Daily Mail last month about painters and decorators charging £1200 per week............cash in hand. oh, I forgot, you don't want 5 on and two off!;)

[ETOPS]

You could try British Airways - we need another couple of hundered co-pilots over the next 18 months to two years............

[Özcan]

hello mate,

What types have you been flying? and how much experience do you have on type?

just have a look at pilotjobnetwork for jobs, 9 years in UAE should have given you a bunch of experience

[And Then]

FWIW, IFALPA Recruitment Ban implemented at Dragonair, if you were Hong Kong inclined. :\

[411A]

>>...IFALPA Recruitment Ban implemented at Dragonair...<<

Good grief, I suppose the boys in HKG just can't get along.
Shades of CX...all over again.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ironbutt57]

IFALPO hypocrites at it again huh? Throw away career opportunities in support of those who wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire???:mad: :rolleyes:

[Keith Discovering]

Thanks for the serious replies;

ETOPS: I really want my cake and eat it. Going to BA as an FO would be a little step rearwards.:uhoh:

Dragonair: East of DXB I'm afraid, so no good for me.

So, with over 400 viewings, I'm surprised no one else has posted. Is it a fair thing to say that there really isn't anything better out there?

Anyhow, thanks for those that posted

Regards

Keith.

[Gobble]

Keith
An interestng point indeed with so many viewings and so few practical responses...

Makes one wonder perhaps there is not that many options out there for you West of here and East of the Queens Country....

Would be great if the sarcasm could be kept at bay on this link and see what credible responses those in the know can offer....

:E

[dusty777]

Could be that no one wants to give up a potential job to one so experienced. Like the others, Ill tell you after I have the job!
However not alot to do closer to home unless you like pulling gear several times a day. Good luck though.
Once we see what the profits are in a month, and his Highness decides to share, Maybe we'll all get a little more of the pie this year?
Yah, I knew that would make you laugh!

[74world]

You can try Korean Air, they are currently looking for Capts, you can chose the base, either LHR,CDG or FRA in EU

The pay is US$12.000/month, good luck!

[Flying Mechanic]

All you unhappy Emirates boys should go Corporate!!That where the future is, you will be appreciated for the skills you have, and you wont be doing 900 hours a year, while your Jumeirah jane roots her tennis/golf coach.

[Arnie DeDump]

... Is that you holerspolers4 ?

[max AB]

Well that's the answer...leave EK and become a tennis/golf coach!

[mali]

Or man whoring is the way to go these days.

It's big in Amsterdam!!

:eek:

[Dixons Cider]

haha Mali - classic, bit scary, but classic all the same!

Me personally, I think I'll stick with the tennis coaching!

But on a more serious note, are perhaps the lack of credible responses here indicative of the way the scene is going? ie the big downward spiral?? Is there such a thing anymore as the ideal number?

All this talk of looming pilot shortages doesn't seem to be producing the goods as far as improving T&C's are concerned. So why is that then? Is it because as a combined proffessional group we are continually shooting ourselves in the foot as we scramble over the carcass of our bretheren to get to the front of the queue?

Enough ramblings, off to google I go to type in tennis coaching.... :}

[And Then]

411A and Ironbutt, I should have clarified, the employment ban is for the 747-400 only.

There is no militancy in the limited industrial actions, the battle is in the courts. The vetoing of a C scale will benefit new joiners ( 45% less pay ), as well as current pilots. So it is not entirely self-serving.

A group of pilots are doing their best to uphold conditions. What's interesting is that the spiteful remarks on these pages come from an old has been 411A ( well known in Fragrant Harbour for his bitterness toward CX pilots ) and Ironbutt57, who in the swansong of his career is unusually, banished to Gulf Air.

[ratpoison]

Tennis, Golf ?????. I thought it was the SWIMMING Coach. Well, at least around the 164 villa's anyway. :p

[chinny]

:\ As pilots i think we all are looking for the utopia-settling into a new job is fine and dandy whilst it lasts, but then the smoke clears and every company is just the same as each other-apart from their size.

Have been lookig for it for years and still not got there--but still looking:hmm:

Will continue but there comes the time when you just gotta give up:sad:

VTSP

[fatigueflyer]

There is a lot work around. Most things must be better what you see goes on at EK. Just took a drive around town today and its absolutely dangerous on the roads (not only SZR). For the money (or lack of it) we get I would look elsewhere. What are the chances of being here for the next 10 yrs and NOT experiencing road rage, an accident (God forbid), being treated like a robot (as AAL says we are used to fatigue) and whinging about it without any change, being cheated by rising costs, VAT, wondering if your family is ok on the roads when you are on a layover......absolutely NIL! Leaving EK and living in the UK or Aust and flying 5 on 2 off, family happy, together, normal driving (to a degree) and home in your own country......doesn't seem so bad, does it? Would you rather work a few extra years making up the difference as opposed to playing russian roulette with work and my family's lives in this place. To tell us that we are guests in this country, they don't seem to be very good hosts. Good luck guys!

[Yossarian]

And if, God forbid, you do have an accident here in the UAE, best of luck with the medical treatment you and your family MAY receive. With recent experience of the "high quality" medical treatment available here, I can honestly say you are in God's hands unless you are lucky enough to afford evacuation and treatment elsewhere. It is not only the pilots who are feeling the pinch and taking their skills elsewhere. GP's are fine in my opinion, but specialist care is frighteningly deficient.

[Keith Discovering]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I really appreciate it.
FF: Some very good points that I'd forgotten. Thank you...
Chinny: I'm really looking for a company that respects it's workforce (not smoke blown up my jacksie, but just decency). Being appreciated is a basic human need. If I'm told that I won't get paid the same as a direct entry Capt because i'm already working for EK; that tells me a whole lot.
Dusty:I tried not to laugh. :{
Thanks again guys. I'll close the post soon if nothing else comes up.
Appreciate all that took time out
Regards
Keith

[flufdriver]

Keith, I can tell you that I have looked around for several years now, I have learned to tell green grass from grass that is painted green, there is a lot of the latter and not much of the former.

Going sideways,(doing the same thing somwhere else) is not very attractive unless it is an improvement in the environment that you are doing it in. Every employer wants to get the most bang for their buck so they maximise what they can get out of you, I don't care if it is in Mumbai, Luton or Nigeria.

My recipe for survival; find somewhere reasonable (according to your requirements) stay and accumulate some seniority, find other business activities that bring in some cash and can be done whilst you're exersicing the privileges of your Pilots licence. Invest visely and design an exit strategy before you go crazy.

[PRNAV1]

Have you tried KAC...oh wait a minute, you want to get treated with respect :}

[Kamelchaser]

Went to another farewell function last night. Yet another friend leaving the sandpit. I just can't get over how many friends and collegues have either resigned, planning to resign, or are actively seeking jobs elsewhere. All experienced line drivers, TRIs or TREs. So how does EK management continue to ignore the crisis?..oh but of course from the horse's mouth resignation percentages are actually coming down..yeah right.

..and then you hear stories about AS refusing a Capt permission for the jump seat to get back for work..then checking to see if he made the flight, and pulling him off his duty when he got to DXB because he wouldn't be rested.

...and then the story about the Brit CAA commissioned report about Emirates, its out of control expansion..where they are getting all their pilots from..why TC spends his time choosing the 1st class chocolates and signing approvals to employ the latest 21 yr old hostie from Bolivia instead of looking at the problems evolving around him.

..I mean what's the point of going abroad if you're just another tourist carted around in buses surrounded by sweaty mindless oafs from Kettering and Coventry in their cloth caps and their cardigans and their transistor radios and their Sunday Mirrors, complaining about the tea - "Oh they don't make it properly here, do they, not like at home" - and stopping at Majorcan bodegas selling fish and chips and Watney's Red Barrel and calamares and two veg and sitting in their cotton frocks squirting Timothy White's suncream all over their puffy raw swollen purulent flesh 'cos they "overdid it on the first day."
And being herded into endless Hotel Miramars and Bellvueses and Continentales with their modern international luxury roomettes and draught Red Barrel and swimming pools full of fat German businessmen pretending they're acrobats forming pyramids and frightening the children and barging into queues and if you're not at your table spot on seven you miss the bowl of Campbell's Cream of Mushroom soup, the first item on the menu of International Cuisine, and every Thursday night the hotel has a bloody cabaret in the bar, featuring a tiny emaciated dago with nine-inch hips and some bloated fat tart with her hair brylcreemed down and a big arse presenting Flamenco for Foreigners.
And then some adenoidal typists from Birmingham with flabby white legs and diarrhoea trying to pick up hairy bandy-legged wop waiters called Manuel and once a week there's an excursion to the local Roman Remains to buy cherryade and melted ice cream and bleeding Watney's Red Barrel and one evening you visit the so called typical restaurant with local colour and atmosphere and you sit next to a party from Rhyl who keep singing "Torremolinos, torremolinos" and complaining about the food - "It's so greasy isn't it?" - and you get cornered by some drunken greengrocer from Luton with an Instamatic camera and Dr. Scholl sandals and last Tuesday's Daily Express and he drones on and on about how Mr. Smith should be running this country and how many languages Enoch Powell can speak and then he throws up over the Cuba Libres.
And sending tinted postcards of places they don't realise they haven't even visited to "All at number 22, weather wonderful, our room is marked with an 'X'. Food very greasy but we've found a charming little local place hidden away in the back streetswhere they serve Watney's Red Barrel and cheese and onion crisps and the accordionist plays 'Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner'."
And spending four days on the tarmac at Luton airport on a five-day package tour with nothing to eat but dried BEA-type sandwiches and you can't even get a drink of Watney's Red Barrel because you're still in England and the bloody bar closes every time you're thirsty and there's nowhere to sleep and the kids are crying and vomiting and breaking the plastic ash-trays and they keep telling you it'll only be another hour although your plane is still in Iceland and has to take some Swedes to Yugoslavia before it can load you up at 3 a.m. in the bloody morning and you sit on the tarmac till six because of "unforeseen difficulties", i.e. the permanent strike of Air Traffic Control in Paris - and nobody can go to the lavatory until you take off at 8, and when you get to Malaga airport everybody's swallowing "enterovioform" and queuing for the toilets and queuing for the armed customs officers, and queuing for the bloody bus that isn't there to take you to the hotel that hasn't yet been finished. And when you finally get to the half-built Algerian ruin called the Hotel del Sol by paying half your holiday money to a licensed bandit in a taxi you find there's no water in the pool, there's no water in the taps, there's no water in the bog and there's only a bleeding lizard in the bidet. And half the rooms are double booked and you can't sleep anyway because of the permanent twenty-four-hour drilling of the foundations of the hotel next door - and you're plagues by appalling apprentice chemists from Ealing pretending to be hippies, and middle-class stockbrokers' wives busily buying identical holiday villas in suburban development plots just like Esher, in case the Labour government gets in again, and fat American matrons with sloppy-buttocks and Hawaiian-patterned ski pants looking for any mulatto male who can keep it up long enough when they finally let it all flop out. And the Spanish Tourist Board promises you that the raging cholera epidemic is merely a case of mild Spanish tummy, like the previous outbreak of Spanish tummy in 1660 which killed half London and decimated Europe - and meanwhile the bloody Guardia are busy arresting sixteen-year-olds for kissing in the streets and shooting anyone under nineteen who doesn't like Franco. And then on the last day in the airport lounge everyone's comparing sunburns, drinking Nasty Spumante, buying cartons of duty free "cigarillos" and using up their last pesetas on horrid dolls in Spanish National costume and awful straw donkeys and bullfight posters with your name on "Ordoney, El Cordobes and Brian Pules of Norwich" and 3-D pictures of the Pope and Kennedy and Franco, and everybody's talking about coming again next year and you swear you never will although there you are tumbling bleary-eyed out of a tourist-tight antique Iberian airplane...

Now the EK management test is to figure out where the genuine complaint finishes and the Monty Python quote begins. A box of TC's chocolates and promotion to some SVP position for the winner.

[bus canuck]

I never wanted to do this for a living...I always wanted to be a...a...a...

[145qrh]

Ode to Ed and Al...

How sweet to be an Idiot,
As harmless as a cloud,
Too small to hide the sun
Almost poking fun,
At the warm but insecure untidy crowd.
How sweet to be an idiot,
And dip my brain in joy,
Children laughing at my back,
With no fear of attack,
As much retaliation as a toy.

Courtesy of M.Python

[TAF Oscar]

I've never seen so many bleedin' aerials.

[L1011]

Albatross, Albatross

[helen-damnation]

Spam, Spam,Spam,Spam, Luverly Spam ...:ok: :D

[Wizofoz]

Well....It does have some rat in it.....

[TAF Oscar]

Oh I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?

[wolferj]

Just to illuminate the 'forumers', but where all those resignees go??I mean let's say you are in the late 30' s early 40's with no Cmd experiance on the 777/A340, whAT DO YOU DO? START FROM THE BEGINNING FOR CATHAY or "cargoking"?/
Just curious.

[violate]

Course we don't have any fu**ing choc ices.......

Well actually we might :D

[GLOBAL AV8OR]

Best post this year!!
:O
:D

...half a bee,
...philosophically,
...should ipso-facto,
...half, not be...

[145qrh]

But can a bee be said to be
Or not to be an entire bee,
When half the bee is not a bee,
Due to some ancient injury
Singing La di di, one two three,
Eric the Half a Bee.
A B C D E F G
Eric the Half a Bee
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Never Be Rude to an Arab
From: Monty Python's Contractual Obligation Album
& Monty Python Live at the Hollywood Bowl

Never be rude to an Arab,
An Isreali, or Saudi, or Jew.
Never be rude to an Irishman,
No matter what you do.
Never poke fun at a Ni**er,
A Spic, or a Wop, or Kraut.
And never poke fun at at...
*KABOOM*
They were so far ahead of their time it is frightening, quite literally!!

[Stormy Petrel]

I see, I get the picture. Strange creatures sheep. They don't so much fly as they plummet ........

[Left Coaster]

MY BRAIN HURTS...:D

[ruserious]

Fwee Bwian

(so he can do another story in the Yank papers)

[Oblaaspop]

He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy

[Stormy Petrel]

Wake up Polly! wake up polly parrot!

[ruserious]

He has ceased to be! He’s expired and gone to meet his maker! He’sa stiff. ... He fuc*in’ snuffed it

[4HolerPoler]

Sigh.............

You guys............

It's the summer madness.

Take it easy out there. 4HP

[puff m'call]

Welease Woderick!!!!!

[TAF Oscar]

Yes! We are all individuals!

[ruserious]

Heres one for our Fatigue Managment department
I think that all good, right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not, and I'm sick and tired of being told that I am

[Silky]

and stwike him quite woughly.....hmm sounds familiar....:p

[sir.pratt]

are there any wimmen here?

[Alistair]

I Fart in your general direction :O
:D :D :D

[Payscale]

Oii..whats the fricking point to this thread. Kill it moderator!

[Oblaaspop]

You're either very dull, or American (or both!)!!

Cheer up buddy, its just a bit of good old British humour!:ok:

[puff m'call]

Hey Payscale, it's easy, don't read it, I know you don't understand it. :ugh:

[puff m'call]

After all,

We are the Knights that say " Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek' :8

[R. Cramden]

Kill me? .... You can't kill me! That's just a flesh wound.

Come on ya pansy...

[Fly747]

What have the Emiratis ever done for us?

[ruserious]

What have the Emiratis ever done for us?
Central heating :hmm:

[journeyman]

the aqueduct...

[fatigueflyer]

EK management on parade
Keeping up their charade
One by one we fall
They never heard our call
How long will this last
Before we hear the blast
A hull is lost
They care only about the cost
Can crew be blamed
Its usually what they claimed
Watch out mere mortals
For that is exactly what you are
Give them an inch
And watch them screw you, its a cinch!!!!

[4HolerPoler]

This thread has suffered a fatal error (a number of them in fact) & has been binned. Please feel free to start another.

4HP

[gatvol2006]

Rumour has it at least two senior Captains resigned in the last week. Any news or just rumour?:*

[flareflyer]

One more 2 days ago but not senior.........................................

[southflyer]

Resignations?? what resignations.... everybody happy here, nobody leaving...

res·ig·na·tion /ˌrɛzɪgˈneɪʃən/ [rez-ig-ney-shuhn] –noun

1. the act of resigning.
2. a formal statement, document, etc., stating that one gives up an office, position, etc.
3. an accepting, unresisting attitude, state, etc.; submission; acquiescence: to meet one's fate with resignation.


AHHHH, I see now, you must be refering to numeral 3.......

[Fart Master]

Nice one Southflyer, liked that one :) :D :ok: ;)