43 Air School for a Kenyan

[musaQ]

I happened to have gone to 43 Air school on sponsorship but my experience there was terrifying. The management are downright biased against black folks especially those who are company sponsored. This is a far cry from the land of madiba we hear about from outside. I'll never forget the place for all the wrong reasons - racism and all.

[bianchi]

Modurator :

Please remove this thread,white South Africans are sick and tied of being accused of Racism,discrimination etc ! Don't use this forum to start a black .....white thing !!Become colourblind please !!Sort your differences out directly with the party involved !!! And not using PPRUNE.....

[propswing]

I've heard this too many times, more often by students that couldnt fly and were washed out or had a hard time with instructors because they just couldnt fly.
I have many black Kenyan friends who I trained with and they never had any sort of racial problems mention by you. But like I said earlier, I know many others that couldnt fly, maybe because they were just not meant to become pilots and some of them came out saying similar things you saying :yuk:
I also dont understand why 43 Air School management like you said, "are downright biased against black folks especially those who are company sponsored" Makes no sense to me mate!!! I think they are maybe more strict with company sponsored student to make sure they of a high standard and popularity to companies who send their pilots to train there.
So please don't blame racism...

[TermightJim]

Hey MusaQ, How about taking your thread and shoving it! Im not sure if you are someone sitting in Africa bored out of your skull and what to cause nonesense but not here dude. I know, if you didnt like it that much or if you were so hard done by, why didnt you make a stand and leave? Then, maybe, people would question it. I am an ex 43 boy (as half of the industry is these days) and I never saw any racism being displayed. I think you need an out to explain to your "company" why your flying was so terrible and why you were on 30 hrs and still no solo. 43 is one of the worlds top flying schools and they have a rep to up hold. You are privileged to attend such a flying school, you just never realised it. You probably were sitting in your mudhut, in some hole of a country, when your mom said "why dont you learn to fly, you can make lots of money". You obviously dont have any passion for this career, so get out and make space for those who do! So boo hoo, get over it. If you would like something to cry about, pm me. I agree with the bianchi, take it up with the boys at 43 (what champions!), but go play the race card somewhere else! Comprende amigo?:ouch:

Go on, reply I dare you.

[Hoveronly]

TermightJ...There is no need to be offensive to the guy. If he feels this way he wont be persuaded otherwise by comments such as you have made.

[Taxman]

43 Air School is a top class organisation, one of the best in the world. If you can't fly - you're out. Its as simple as that. Nothing to do with racism.

[philby737]

I absolutely agree, nothing to do with racism. My experience was that all cadets regardless of colour got preference over the self paying white souf effrican. I recall often having to suck the hind t:mad: t, as a result ended up being there longer costing ME more money. So those on the gravy train should be a little more thankful:= .

As for 43 you either love it or hate it regardless, I hated it probably more to do with the place than the school, but as a package deal you can keep it.

[mortivflow]

Maybe you should look at your performance and try again, this time a little harder. If you feel that anyone has been racist i'm sure you can contact someone to fix the problem.
43 air school is a good and if anything they support a non racist culture. Why should they be racist? :confused: :ugh: :(

Good luck, i hope you sort it out! :ok:

mortivflow

[Springbok 495]

I got my CPL at 43 in September 2005 and I can say with all honesty that the above is absolute bull!

Paddy might have scared the living hell out off me sometimes in the lecture hall and Tim's cuisine was often scary but racists NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

43 is a very good flying institution and a business. If you were a sponsord person frm Kenya you were prob a cadet and I know that the 43 management always made sure those clients were well taken care off (the airlines bring in the most money)

So go cause a stir else where mate!:}

[B Sousa]

Musa Man.......You can always go to another Flight School. Eventually you will be flying.
Quit whining and get on with life.........
(Is sponsorship something that means it didnt cost you anything anyway...unlike most Pilots today)

[EtAF]

43rd is strictly a commercial operation and Kenya Airways is one of their most important client. It has an accelerated course structure which is appealing to many from the continet. The owners have to be utterly stupid to mistreat these high paying trainees because it will have serious ramification to their business.

As far as quality goes, I am not so sure. There have been cadets dropped from ET flying school who later went and finished up at 43rd!

[Yarba]

Since I left the sandpit and came to work Africa, I have met many African pilots who trained in School 43 and have never heard allegation like yours. Some said they don't like the location of the school, some not the food, some the lack of social life. I'm sure if your allegations were with foundation the organisation sponsoring you would have taken action :=

[ugflyer]

Guys, I believe the guy had a reason for making the claims that he did. Let us not jump off right away and start accusing people of this and that. Maybe if you took the trouble to find out the fella's grievances ,it would paint a clearer picture.
Some of you do make a good point reagarding incompetent students. I have dealt with a few of those myself. Once they flank a stage check, then all of a sudden the instructor never showed them this and that and never covered this and was lazy and bla bla bla! Looks like Musa has a tough one on his hands..........Fly safe fellas

[Stayinalive]

:= Typical of someone who has been given it all. Look around in yur own country and tell me racism does not exist. Big chip on yur spoon fed shoulder....lack of intelligence as well as respect for anyone. Can see ur type from a mile away. Preferably not in South Africa or near an aeroplane in future.
Go climb a mountain.....preferably Kilimanjaro.

[musaQ]

Didnt mean to be rude or anything, just saying it as it is. Talked to a buddy of mine in another flying school in SA - he told me he took longer to go solo because his landings had to be perfect compared to other guys whose were similar to his. have to admit - it takes the morale out of a student pilot. Most guys I know already went solo in their heads long before the actual one.
That said in my defence, I made some white buddies who I still keep in touch with. Got admit it though - 43 is a beautiful school, one you can learn to fly well given a good atmosphere. Managed to continue my program in a different school but is taking me longer to finish coz of breaks between.

[musaQ]

Sorry to cut back:

"....You probably were sitting in your mudhut, in some hole of a country, when your mom said "why dont you learn to fly, you can make lots of money".

Isnt this offensive TermightJim.
So much for your apparent ignorance to an honest concern

[SkYARRoW]

MusaQ might be right? 43rd is a huge school which is committed to deliver Fresh com pilots to their respective "Companies" but their level of training is far from being "Outstanding" these days!! they are just a sausage factory! and one should see how these guys struggle to cope with ATC'S Once they are flying away from their bush`~ and 43 is also increasing the statistics of incidents/accidents in S.A based on Incident reports.. what a class again...

[sslut]

Double order of popcorn and a large coke please!!!
I think musaq got all of you going quite easily - amazing how quickly a thread can expand after it should have just died a quiet death that it deserved. But we have a bunch of bright kids that fell for it hook line and sinker. Ah well I'll sit back and watch with interest.....

[UnDies]

MusQ, it could be worse!! - you could be trapped between the moon and New york city.....sounds crazy..............buts it true!!

Tay19 - you an english teachur - could you help with my spalling? It`s atrocious!! :E

[skychick2]

Just joined PPRUNE and this thread is sure enjoying a lot of interest from me. Yes, where does this Tay guy come from? Lets all just step away quietly before anyone gets hurt

(bianchi if Tay is fully booked for english lessons, you can contact me :O )

[Foo-Fighter]

Sheesh!

What a tank slapper this is turning out to be.

I cant say i've ever met someone from 43 who wasnt just that little bit TOO full of themselves for my personal comfort, but also have never heard anyone say anything about rasism either.

Why would a school (in africa) that gets contracts to train cadets for airlines (in africa) allow even the hint of racial discrimination to pop up? It simply doesnt make sense...but then again, neither did apartheid, and that happened...

I think 43 is in a very complex situation (the unofficial reason SAA took their first cadets off to Australia). You train people from all races and backgrounds...most of them there (unfortunately) on the basis of "its a cool job and you make lots of cash" (and not because its in the blood). Now, should a black candidate fail, the avenue of crying rasist (considdering South Africa's past) is the most comfortable to pursue. Who of us LIKES admitting we cant do something? Any takers? I doubt it.

Face it...there are infinite scenarios here, and i certainly would be more worried about pilots walking out of a school with commercial licenses who dont know how to make contact with a ground controller...than whether or not claims of rasism is calls for a crisis.

[Vref +10]

I had to pay for all of my training from PPL to ATP and wasn't cheap and did some training with 43 as well ..

Some Piper 140 lost its main gear on sand dune while back if I remember..
Pilots???

[TermightJim]

Tay19. Yes, unfortunately I feel that I am on a battlefield when it comes to this topic. Sslut, I have to agree with you. We are being pulled into this VERY easily which just shows that racism isnt dead in SA, its FAR from it. It just kills me when in SA we enough of this race naming game. Accusing fellow South Africans of racism when it isnt called for just to get their way. My point is that we DONT need a foreigner adding fuel to this fire. Anyway guys no problem with you okes and MusaQ, Im not taking back what I said but its cool man, if that wasnt what you meant to say, well whatever, just next time be a bit more tactful. You can now see how fragile this topic is, even 13 years on! Cheerio all! :ok:

Got an open seat next to you sslut? Im over posting here, Ill have a coke as well.

[UnDies]

**Tay19 wrote**
Im going back giving home to give english lessons!!!!!!

Could do with a few yourself my friend!!:E

Play nicely now!!

[Lex44]

Had to contribute to this. I finished from the school too a year back privately. I may not go as far as using the race card, maybe musaQ has genuine isuues to pick.
Come to think of it, some of the things I remember at the time of leaving was:

FACT1: There were no black Instructors.Nope. None - Maybe things have changed since then but makes you wonder what Africa that was. Hard reconciling that with flying. Gives Instructors reasons to chide the black folks that maybe they werent meant to be pilots...... instead of maybe questioning their competence to instruct.
The most a black was, was a mechanic or cleaning lady. They always seemed to do what the white man didnt want to do. Never saw a black supervisor. So much for a racial Policy - IN AFRICA OF ALL PLACES.:eek:

FACT2: Never saw a white chap being washed out - makes you wonder whether flying does not transcend race. At least one white chap for the multitude of blacks washed out. Again that was then maybe things have changed.:eek:

I got to finish bt the school was particularly strict with KAirwys and SAA guys. I pitied them since i know KAirwys guys passed lots of interviews to get there and they seemed to never get away with anything I could get away with. (funny i had failed one of their interviews). I think the school HAD to wash out someone as a policy and the unlucky chaps always got it. I think they went through what a private student wouldnt, I would just pack my money and go.

Sorry guys but I thought I had to chip in. On merit the school is OK - keeps you on your toes, the Navs used to rock. Some Instructors were super cool and just great.:D

musaQ, I hope you get to get your licence someway. Maybe then the chaps at 43 will see their folly.:ok:

Other Chaps, dont waste a good forum by polluting it - do you feel hurt by the allegations or covering up for what you know.... The whole world is going to it too:=

[musaQ]

Racism has the oppressed and the oppresser. Some benefit by it's policies while others suffer under it. The most vexed ex 43 here seem to have benefited by it. Look around and smell the coffee - this is not a personal attack just a wrong committed that should be corrected. I know i wouldnt raise hell if I made it through because I was white. Maybe I'd be too blind to see it, but my conscience wouldnt be clear if i let it go because it wasnt me. :hmm:

It is said those who condone evil are more guilty than those who commit it. :) :)

Deal with it, an open forum that needs discussing not denial. Dont bury your heads in the sand guys...:=

[skychick2]

MusQ are you happy with the current flying school. Is the standard good?

[contrails8]

i'm not going to confirm that 43 is racist but it's a no brainer that racism is very prevalent in south african aviation. it's an industry with a very big single race dominating and recently other races were open to join up, so there's going to be a lot of discrimination to the new entrants-that's a fact. the dissapointment is that a lot of the priviledged people are not embracing this opportunity to have equal status to all south african residents but they are painting themselves in the corner and pointing that the measures to level the field are not fair.

when SAA and the government decided on the cadet programme they seeked to address this issue but all the targets they have set have been missed. you must also understand that for SAA only to have a BEE program(which no longer exists anyway) is not enough. SAA is not the only aviation company in SA. Look at other private companies, flying schools, airport operators, and ask yourself, is there a real vision to address centuries of unfair treatment to other human races in our contry.

just look at the replies,apparently if a black person goes into aviation, it's because they have political connections. i beg to differ.

to all aspirant pilots of colour i suggest they ignore totally, all calls refering them as inferior and flying because of the gravy train. i'm not on gravy train. i pay for all my training because of the satisfaction i get in flying. like the guy from Kenya airways, he had no idea of the situation in SA at first and he got a bit of a surprise.THE THINGS YOU HEAR BEING SAID IN AFRIKAANS IN THE BRIEFING ROOMS ABOUT BLACK PILOTS, SOMETIMES MAKES YOU WONDER IF SA IS STILL UNDER VERWOED. ..........for me what i do, i know myself, i fly. i enjoy it, i have fun. if you don't like it ....tough. fortunately i got an opportunity to have good financial base from my previous work. not many people are that lucky. very few ACTUALLY .

i agree that no one should continue flying if they are not safe. i would't go flying if i thought i can't hack it. i love airplanes too much to intentionally bend one.

FINALLY, I WOULD LIKE TO APOLOGISE TO ALL THOSE INDIVIDUALS IN SA AVIATION WHO ARE TRULY COMMITTED TO NON-RACIAL AVIATION IN SA. I HAVE WORKED WITH LOTS OF INSTRUCTORS AND PILOTS WHO WON'T JUDGE YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR RACE AND SOME OF THEM WERE VERY GOOD MENTORS OF MINE.

[F8240202]

:D :D Well said Contrails8

Might I be so bold to suggest that this thread finish with Contrails8 words

Happy flying to who ever and what ever :ok:

[F8240202]

I think that we all agree that Rasicm is alive and well, no matter how many people dienie it. I have lived/travelled all over the world and what I have learn't is that people aren't racist per sa, but they don't however understand the culture. I think that there are very few people in the world that dislike a certain person, they moreover see that person as representing a certain culture which is unfair. I would hate to discrimated against because of what Britian has done to other cultures.

MusaQ did you highlight this problem with 43 or Kenya Airlines?

[fluffyfan]

Of Course Racisim is alive and well in SA, and endorsed by the government nogal.
What do you think Affirmative action and BEE are? Racisim pure and simple.
racism
• noun 1 the belief that there are characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to each race. 2 discrimination against or antagonism towards other races.

At present in SA there is discrimination against white males getting many jobs, that is racisim
Racisim is not about the "Non White person" always being the victim its exactly what the definition above suggests, its just a pitty that many people who feel they have been victimised for whatever reason just or unjust whip out the racism card as the proverbial answer to there problems, I would suggest a more frugal use of the term racist, its such an easy way out (just ask OJ Simpson) and every time you use it it gives less meaning to the people who are truly victims of racism.

MusaQ you have given no detail whatsoever about this alleged racisim at 43, I must say I find it difficult to believe that at a flying school that earns huge revenue from foreign students like yourself and from companies like SAA who are fierce proponents of non-racisim (but happily practice it with there employment policies....I must add) racisim could exist, you are implying that its not just one instructor but a whole group, because it would take more than one to wash you from a course. Oh to be born with a black skin...every time something does not go my way I just shout "Racism" and it all gets better

[Foo-Fighter]

MusaQ, in doing what he feels is right in defending his ego which was probably dented because of a lack of skill/commitement...cries rasism.

In defending themselves because of an inherent feeling of guilt for some deeply hidden rasism... some of the respondants cry sour grapes.

In defending MusaQ... yet more of the respondants cry fowl which only points to highlight their own deep rooted "rasist" trends because in defending musa...we are saying he/she is incapable of defending him/herself.

Lets face it, the one thread brough through this whole thing is how self concious and insecure pilots are. If we aren't out defending ourselves, we are either our defending the world or other people. Defend defend defend...

If we all just had it in us to live within ourselves, and take responsibility for who we are and what we can and can't...

... this would probably be a very boring forum.

[fluffyfan]

I don’t think they should bin the thread, because believe it or not I think its actually quite healthy being able to talk about racism, like this maybe we can get our respective views across, just as long as it does not go too far then I am sure the moderator will bin the thread.
ugflyer, your quote
I do not even begin to understand how some of you are calling the current South African policies of affirmative action racist. It is simply beyond comprehension. I cannot help but wonder where you were when the blacks were being oppressed before. Were you condemning the actions back then as racist? I doubt you were.......the only thing you could have been doing was lining your pockets

I ask you to re-think this comment, it is a huge generalisation and runs along the same line of painting all black people as criminals, of course they are not, and neither are all the whiteys how you suggest above, perhaps you should read up a bit on the history of SA before you make comments like that, I see you come from the USA, heres a suggestion, go and solve your own race problems first before you come shouting here about something you seem to know little about. And when you are finished fixing your own race problems then maybe you can look at your own countries foreign policy and the systematic destruction of whole countries to suit yourselves.
Now whether you like it or not Racism is defined as it is, and as the definition stands the SA government is actively practicing racism, the same stuff is happening in SA now as it was in the old days, except that now its the other way around and people like yourself are standing up and clapping your hands and saying its justified.....well are you not just like the so called whites you accuse of being complicit in apartheid?
Yes and we have heard it all before, the horrid colonialists came an colonised Africa, put the people into slavery, raped the continent of its natural resources, its true they did, this has been happening across the planet ever since man stepped on 2 feet, the Romans did the same with Europe, the Mongols with Asia. After WW2 every city in Germany was virtually wiped off the map, Japan was Nuked twice.........what do all these countries have in common, they came back and thrived, Germany and Japan took 40 years to become some of the strongest economies in the world. Now you please explain to me why Africa is unable to do the same, Africa has been ruling itself for a long time now, and all we have is death destruction, poverty, crime, greed..........we could try to find out why and solve the problem or we could just shout Racism and blame someone else

[putt for dough]

Fluffy- well said!
Ugly flyer- as they say, people in glass houses hey.......:ugh:

[Rude Boy]

Ugflyer, who do you think you are?! You've made some shocking generalisations here and I would have to say that you've just dropped the level of this thread to nothing more than a hypocritical mudslinging contest. I have been refraining from posting here for obvious reasons, but I couldn't sit by and let you accuse all white South Africans of crimes against their fellow humans based, probably, on what you've seen on the news and biased opinion gleaned from questionable sources. If you've had more realistic first hand exposure to life in SA before, and after, the change of regime then it isn't evident from your arrogant, bombastic utterings above.

There's no denying what's been done in the past, but to accuse all present day whites in SA of deserving whatever it is that comes their way because of past injustices perpetrated by their forefathers is ridiculous. A lot of people who are living and working with the current state of affairs weren't even out of school by the time the new government took over in 1994. And speaking of 'disenfranchising the natives and the foreigners gaining everything', your lot don't exactly have the most spotless record on their own doorstep in that department either if you go back a while.

As far as MusaQ's predicament goes, none of us knows exactly what happened because we weren't in his shoes. To automatically discredit those claims isn't fair and merely adds to the whole perception of wrongdoing and prejudice.

Ugflyer, get a life.

[Foo-Fighter]

ugflyer... what point is there to play the primary school game of, "i am right because my aeroplane can fly the highest"? Are you serious? Does this sufficiently prove your point to yourself?

I would suggest that as an outsider, not only in the South African context, but very much also in the greater African context ( herein the bait) you should rather refrain from shouting, before running off to FL350 where you feel safe.

You are aware that the USA is the most unliked nation on the planet today? Can you maybe see why?

I am not coming in support for anyone nor anything racist, but dont pretent to know and comment on the realities of whats happening in Africa...from your highly enlighted FL350...

MusaQ, I hope that you find what you are looking for at your new training school. Just remember, this is flying and your life as well as other's are at stake. Its not accounting where you will just be bored stiff if its not your thing. Should you not be cut out for flying, apart from the fact that you wont be happy, people could die.

If you were mistreated at 43, thats just not on and i feel for you. If you failed because you failed... face the facts and get over yourself.

[Hoveronly]

Our industry needs stable individuals in the left hand seat of the cockpit. We need to be wholly transparent in our attitudes and ideally harbour neither a bleeding heart nor any form of prejudices. We should be well trained in order that we perform to the standards set by the regulators and safely operate day after day. If during training, atitudes or physical performance should drop below requirements, then it is time for the individual to find an alternative profession. Flying does not suit everyones skill set and should an individual not suceed in his desire, he should accept it and move on with their lives! Too many accidents have been caused and too many lives lost by pilots with very borderline ability!

[UnDies]

Nice one Fluff!!:ok:

[musaQ]

SkyChick2,
:D My current school in SA is better, though it took me some months to comprehend what had happened and sort my finances before I went back to flying. I got my PPL and am hoping to get a CPL in future. It's obviously harder now that i have to cough up the dough but i think i'll manage in the end. Part of the difference is that the school treats me as a client and i feel appreciated plus i got more confident since am not subject to wild swings. They respect me as compared to 43 where I was just another Company statistic. The boys at 43 infact bragged of only being answerable to the company and believe me, you are at their mercy.

If I may describe my last flight at 43 ::*
... it was like being dragged on your feet, put on the pilot seat with a gun pointed to your head and told to fly with the big boy on the other seat ....

Because for them to send you back, they must show that it was in the opinion of the big guy that you cant fly so your last flight has to be with him. So the report is crafted with supporting figures - never mind that the flight file is conveniently put away.

So you get to fly terrified and on the debrief they can write anything, who cares it is their word against yours and in any case you are labeled problematic and so any denials later should be seen in that light.

So why fly in the first place on that state of mind? Do you have a choice, if you walk away you might as well kiss your sponsorship goodbye. If you'd been a private student you'd just take a walk, take your cash elsewhere - guess that's why private students have it easier comparatively. A Company sponsored chap is stuck with them so you cant just walk away. And since you've been singled out it is 'apparent that only you are having problems' - age old method of divide and conquer.

Guys focus. Two wrongs indeed do not make a right. If we have the chance to correct what's happening now we should. We owe it to the next musaQ to go to 43. I wish those who had come before me had told me this.

[musaQ]

suitcaseman,
thank you for your genuine concern and wishing well despite your problems. That shows character - maybe it would have been more convenient for you to maybe sigh 'serves him right' but you are man enough to stand by your belief. I hope you get to sort out your problems too.:)

Fluffyfan,
On defining racism you get it right. Therefore are we right to conclude that the chaps at 43 would indeed be racist since they believe the blacks should take longer to master flying.

Tough one there?

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Musa

Some companies have a culture of intimidation and bullying until one's confidence is destroyed before waving their tiny willies at you so they can feel better about themselves. It's not race based, it's because some folks are arseholes and get their jollies that way. Fortunately it's becoming less of a problem as CRM becomes more prevalent but some old die hards still try it on. I doubt a place like 43 would subscribe to those tactics but not being witness to them, refuting your word is difficult on that score.

Glad your new school is working out better but be aware that these tactics will continue to pop up among the small minded in your aviation career. If you'd kept it impartial and described the problem instead of blaming it on race I reckon you'd have got a far more balanced and informative response.

[musaQ]

Thank you SolidR for your advice. I respect those who see beyond colour and indeed 43 has a fair share but those who dont spoil it for the rest.

[Fat Reggie]

Nothing like shaking one's willy at people for improving self confidence.

[ugflyer]

You can say all you want, but I laid out some points that none of you dared to rubbish. Do not hate on the fact that you are recieving what you dished out.
You can all go and eat your hearts out. I stand by my arguments.

Later

[bianchi]

O my sole, soul ....where is Tay19 to help me with spelling ????

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Ug

Only in your own twisted little mind, kid...:rolleyes: :hmm:

[UnDies]

Ug,
sheees - you have a huge chip on your shoulder!! Let it go mate - its been 13 years and time to move on - LET IT GO!!! Verwoed has come and gone, its the "new" south africa where colour does`t make a difference....no.......wait.....yup, IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE JUST LIKE BEFORE!! - The way I see it, the only one here who has a problem with the colour of your skin is YOU!!! Stop feeling sorry for yourself and get on with it.

[putt for dough]

Stevie G.......

Why not post here and let us hear your side?
Has this unfortunate foreigner got any merit in what he says?

[Lex44]

contrails8,
Thanks for bailling a brother out. African Aviation is definitely threatened by larger issues. I think the ideal situation at 43 was if it was an all white academy. That way if a student wasnt coping - theyd probably fire the instructor, NO WAY A WHITE CHAP CANT FLY!!! Be real guys if you wash out this many number of blacks then a similar number of whites washed out would suffice to convince the black folks nothing to do with their race.:{


Some of you guys have reduced this to a mudslinging contest. When does it stop. Pilots should be world citizens - celebrating diversity and not threatened by it. So come on guys take your words back and blame the actual perpetrators of racial crimes and not individuals who belong to that race. Dont defend evils that happened or are happening - did some guys expose their real selves? Under that fake smile lies a ...... Some of those who rubbished musaQ's arguments seem to be doing a good job supporting them now.:}

Will the REAL PILOTS please stand up. What were we discussing again????

[fluffyfan]

Ugflyer
Do not hate on the fact that you are recieving what you dished out
By the way its receiving not recieving (i before e except after c)....must be an American school that you went to
So what you are saying is that racism is ok if it’s black on white "because we deserve it".......... have I understood you correctly? Because if I have then I call you a racist and treat you with the distain that you deserve
MusaQ most of us at some time have been subject to the likes of questionable instruction, however if what you say is correct and please keep in mind we only have your side of the story, then as Solid Rust Twotter says please don’t immediately whip out the race card and blame racist policies, its more than likely those instructors will treat a white pupil in the same situation the same as you were treated.

[porridge]

Very interesting - I was at 43 circa 1999 and I remember they had a Kenyan Flight Instructor, very much an ethnic Kenyan and very good as an Instructor. Management hasn't changed much since then, so why the racial slurs now when things must have moved on a lot since then?
Methinks that said complainant has his own problems, certainly I have always thought that 43 were the leaders in the non-biased approach, after all it appears they train a much higher proportion of indigeneous Africans than than those of European descent.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

The bloke to which you refer is a brilliant individual, Porridge. I reckon he'd get irritated with the small minded crap going on here as much as the next person. Did a bit of work in Kenya and the Sud with him and he's definitely as sharp as a razor. Probably in KQ by now if there's any justice...:ok:

[4HolerPoler]

Right - I have to draw a line in the sand - if your post has an aviation context (even if it's racism related) then please feel free to continue the debate but if you're going to make a soapbox rant regarding racism, with no aviation connection, then I'm going to bin the post as it has no place on this website.

Carry on please.

4HP

[I.R.PIRATE]

At 43, the instructors and managers do not see you as black or white, they see you as green - the colour of money - irrespective of whether your name is mandela or verwoerd.
The more money, the better - its business.
Now - when someone is washed it has f-all to do with which side of the colour spectrum they come from. It comes from their flying abilities and the possibility that they might just not be cut out for the task at hand No one gets whashed without good reason, and more likely than not the reasons have been stipulated by the company that sent you there in the first place.
Perhaps the fact that SAA and the like immediately scoop up every qualified black pilot, helps explain why no black guys stick around to become instructors at 43. Would you rather be bashing the circuit all day long in a cheroke earning average pay, or take up your righteous place in the right hand seat of a large airliner?? Secondly - as most of the black students are sponsored to attend 43, what would be the motivation behind tossing the sponsorship aside and rather staying on as instructor? You see, Musa, already some major accusations that you have made alledging racism is explained purely by having look at what is really going on. You know very well what sort of a rise your initial post will have, because it is currently very fashionable to try and and explain any shortcomings with a black person, as being part of a bigger racist plot.
Unfortunately, and heres the fun bit....even for you, blaming your personal shortcomings on racism gets you nowhere. Other than promulgating the stereotype of the angry black man, you will one day find that when africa no longer has any white faces (yes yes, we already know about that), you will have no one left to blame for your own shortcomings. That - rafiki, is when you are going to be sitting up a creek with no paddle. How then will you explain to your sponsor that you failed, not because you are black, but because you are not good enough.
The time is coming when the ideal of having no white faces in positions of management and power, and I have no hassles with that, for africa is after all for the africans n'est pas? Around this time it will become blatantly clear that individuals who have been hiding their lack of skills/motivation/ability behind the race card, perhaps dont belong there in the first place.
I will cherish that day, the amount of surprised faces when there is no longer some other race to blame....oh hang on, then you will blame the west, a la bob across our northern border.
Blame blame blame, easy aint it. You can work hard, or you can rather just blame someone when you dont get your way.
Crying racism is the perfect tool to create trouble in SA these days. It is the perfect shield behind which your own inadequacies can hide. Being considered sub-par has nothing to do with your reflectivity index, but purely the way in which you conduct yourself in a cockpit.
Now lets quit our fussing and rather just go flying.

[I.R.PIRATE]

oh, and by the way, nearly all of my advanced training was done under a Kenyan instructor...at 43 of all places. SHOCK AND HORROR!!!!!!!!

:ok:

[Avvy]

There are so few 'Previously Disadvantaged' instructors Due to one truth.
Would you rather be an instructor or jump the politically correct ladder and fly for an airline.

[Lex44]

Funny how this has been turned around and now lack of black instructors is coz they have direct entry to airlines - (they opt not to be instructors). So can you trust the 'currently disadvantaged' to train the 'previously disadvantaged' without hard feelings. Doesnt this give credence to musaQ's allegations. Maybe he was picked on out of envy (he read racism). Lack of skill doesnt wash since he's continued his flying. Seems we are agreeing on something.

[musaQ]

It is obvious that 43 has been elevated to a good school beyond reproach. But it is also run by humans who can be inhuman. I happened to have run into the big guy after being washed out and the picture still plays in my mind. Him bragging how he'd let me go easy to a colleague with a wide grin. Professional?
Anyone explain that away? By choosing not to be timid this forum gives others a chance to narrate their tales and maybe then we can stop denying it.
My apologies again to the people who are beyond this.

[ERASER]

“I happened to have run into the big guy after being washed out and the picture still plays in my mind. Him bragging how he'd let me go easy to a colleague with a wide grin. Professional?”

Well MQ, thank you for clearing it up……………..this might be a tad unprofessional but racist, come on!!! You should ask the question “What would I have said about the instructor if he was black saying the same thing?” Most probably you would have accused him of unprofessional behaviour and not being a racist….maybe double standards on your part??????? Purge your feelings of anger and focus on your flying.......that should be your priority.

E

[musaQ]

ERASER,
I agree that's unprofessional of him and not racist. My post quoted - 'racism and all'. Guys featured so much on racism - guess that's hard for them. Racism is only one of the stuff that happened. About racism, it did happen. It obviously pains me that I should use a blanket term to include all the good caps at 43. This one time a colleague had gone solo and at 43 we used to carry him off the plane and this one Instructor says "Where are the other m:mad: ys to pick one of their own..". He didnt think we heard him. Shocking? Yes it did happen - gives you a picture of a persons mind. Is that what he thinks I am? So why does he take time to instruct m:mad: ys how to fly. Anybody defending that too?:sad:.

43 changes you from the eager novice whose eager to learn in the first days to ' I CANT WAIT TO FINISH' kind of guy once you get sucked into the system.

AM focussed on my flying ERASER, but obviously the past has refused to go.

[I.R.PIRATE]

Your persecution complex is really self deprecating. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Lex44]

The big guy grinning - that's racism in my book. The Qn is not whether if he'd been black would musaQ still have cried racism. The Qn is would musaQ have been treated differently if he was white? Me think 'the big guy' would have been sad he didnt see musaQ through his training and not 'grin' gladly hoping the company sends a replacement soon. Being human precedes economics.

[I.R.PIRATE]

ok so now help me out here - calling someone a monkey is bad / calling someone a dog is fine????? haucome?

hang on I forgot, there are certain words that are fine when uttered by black mouths but the same words cannot be said by white mouths....get real.

Why is it you guys like calling each other n166er but by jove you get all restless when anyone else uses the term. Now how does that work? Or is it part of spin doctoring any event into some possible racial hoo-haa that might get you the sympathy/affirmative vote?

Just help me understand please.

[ERASER]

MQ, this actually sounds to me as perceptions, cultural differences and personality clash rather than being racist. This instructor might have let the strict professional training profile slip and he made comments that he thought to be "funny / cool" but was perceived as "racist". Could you possibly take colour out of the equation and just think that he might call all his pupils “monkeys” (a term of endearment??) and the “one of their own” could actually be referring to “pupils”. There is no one as blind as the person that does not want to see”. Always look for the bigger picture rather than the conservative, one sided point of view.
The SAA cadet pilot scheme incumbents were also sent to 43 for training and believe you me, SAA would not have tolerated any racist behaviour.
MQ, you seem to be intelligent thus focus of the flying thing, become the best you can be and forget banging the “racist” drum. You can quickly pick the people (pilots) that got to their current positions by banging the “racist” drum, taking the easy road. You will only get so far that way and then you will end up a smoking hole in the ground taking a lot of innocent “pax” with you. Read some of the posts again and you will see that you are being incited by “pilots????” with their own narrow minded perceptions and views to think everything is about race in SA. Keep an open mind and never ever believe you can actually know what another person might be thinking. Doing that you are imprinting your own personal thoughts on that person, playing judge, jury and executioner in one go.

E

IRP, you know some folks walk past a book about SA or they see a movie about a small portion of SA history consisting mostly of one sided propaganda and suddenly they are experts about SA politics and history.

[Lex44]

"every dog has it's day" is a proverb meaning what goes around comes around. nobody called anyone a dog! Your ignorance shows.
Monkey and nigger are racial slurrs - dont pretend not to know - one hints at primitivity the other is deregatory reminiscent of slavery. dont turn this round so you are the victim.

If I may ask an honest question, does anyone know of a white washed from 43 and what were the circumstances? The fiery ex43 would come in handy here. Be frank and if the truth has hit you, let us know.

[Vref +10]

I agree with you I.R.P.

[ERASER]

LEX44

"If I may ask an honest question, does anyone know of a white washed from 43"
Oh yes, 43 had its share of white washed pupils, more than you would care to know.

"and what were the circumstances?"
Passed exams but battled with basic a/c handling. Transferred to another school, got his PPL, I went to his funeral :(

It all depends on the circumstances and the context in which you call a person a monkey and the state and maturity of mind in which you receive that word. Seems that if you only want to see what you want to see there is nothing nobody can do!!!

E

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

If one might be permitted to don the ante bellum hat with cockade for a moment, the following thoughts, whilst not exactly springing to the mental forefront, do sort of permeate the old hippocampus or whatever.
(That's more or less US Civil War, in a sweeping sort of way,to the uneducated).

Aeroplanes and automobiles were, for all practical purposes, invented in the States.
Those who originally drove passengers around in automobiles were called chauffeurs and were almost universally of a colour less than white, even sometimes of a mustardy mix.
In the beginning, those who drove aeroplanes around were almost universally pale or grey, sometimes quite sickly, in complexion and were known as pilots.
Modern aeroplanes have become simple and easy to fly. Those who pilot them are often known as drivers.
Drivers and chauffeurs are the same thing in the simple little minds of the passengers. They are system operators.
Therefore all those who operate the systems of modern day aircraft should be black.

This philosophy raises interesting questions concerning inherited rights and meritocracy. Perhaps when one has more time, a discourse on the assassinative attributes these aspects might be forthcoming?:p

[Lex44]

E,
sorry to hear about your 'friend'. By sensationalizing the case you get sympathy not real concern.
Did he have solo hours from 43? Are we to assume he died from a plane crash and it was pilot error not mechanics or ...? What does this say of the second school or the pilots who've come out of it? Sub-standard? Facts please!
And yes, monkey chants are demeaning. This is a favourite of european fans to taunt black football stars. FIFA hasnt endorsed it the last time i checked.

[onehotflyer]

Only just started reading this post. Obviously the guy wasnt good enough and didnt make the grade. 43 maintains the highest standard attainable. Funny how you always get a better result when someone has worked for something instead of just having it handed to them on a plate.

[Insane]

Interesting thread so far, has any one considered the sponsors guide lines to 43rd. A lot of sponsors set out guide lines which require that certain standards be met with in a certain amount of time with in the training schedule. This is done to avoid money being flushed away because the candidate can,t land an plane and he gets to 30hrs before going solo. It is a bit of a blow to the ego that this cannot be achieved and that the sponsor has closed the cheque book on him!:(.

[I.R.PIRATE]

thats what I said, the guidelines for being washed are normally stipulated by the contractor > in this case KQ. 43 only enforces it. They cannot afford to send back home who cannot hack the required levels STIPULATED BY THE SPONSOR. It will reflect extremely poorly on them as an ATO.

So how do you avoid that situation? You wash.:D :D :D

[musaQ]

43 may have a good rep out there but on the ground things are not that pretty. Personal insecurities may play a part in how persons react. SA might have its history but why does a kenyan get to be drawn in it.
What's the ideal situation when an airline assigns you some students to train? YOU SIMPLY TRAIN THEM - within acceptable limits of course, not intimidate them till they are so scared to fly. Do this OR ELSE .... doesnt wash. You cannot play the comapny against the students. That's not an ideal environment for students to fly.:rolleyes:

Where else does an instructor tell you that your flying is ok but recommends something else to the CFI?:confused:

Is being two faced acceptable in this career? :}

And can a senior Instructor judge your flying without actually flying with you?

Isnt there a limit on how many instructors a student may have in a stage?

Is an instructor for almost every other lesson acceptable?

Arent prejudices based on colour best kept to oneself and lessons simply administered regardless?

On second thought do those prejudices disqualify an instructor from administering the lessons? :(

Is it possible for two different instructors to have differing opinions on a student's ability to fly - (one has no problem and the other is disgruntled)?:O
Whose opinion counts in the end if the student agrees with the former(majority rule!! Ha!)?

If there needs to be a third opinion who should be billed for the flight?

If the third opinion agrees with the former can we conclude that the latter is biased?:ugh:

Is it fair for instructors to build hours at a student's cost since he's company sponsored and doesnt pay for them personally - 'read redo lessons unnecessarily'?

Can you unlearn flying?:confused:

If a student has this many solo hours and is this good can he 'slip' suddenly?:hmm:

Do you need to wash students to 'show how high your standards are'? :confused:

Arent standards judged by how good those who make it through are but not simply how many make it through?:=

Can a student judge his flying from comaprison with others at the same stage - 'pax'?

Shouldnt one be told why he is washed?:confused:

Can the indefensible still be defended?:{

[onehotflyer]

All I can say is that 43 managment and staff take a vested interest in their students and want them to pass but they dont push people through if they cant meet a certain standard. Obviously you didnt meet the standard. Its nothing personal or racist or what ever other reason you trying to find to justify your failure. Obviously flying isnt your thing.

[musaQ]

onehotf,
Am not justifying anything. Simply put if you are good nobody can take that away. Like i said - been there, done that. 'The standards' you claim to know were unknown to any of us. Simple task - fly your lessons. How difficult can that be?

[ugflyer]

Onehotflyer, it is not fair to bluntly tell MusaQ that he did not meet the standard.
Do not jump the gun here because you have never flwon with the fella.....
See when you make remarks like that, I cannot help but associate you with the one instructor that MusaQ mentioned...."the one that judges your flying before he even flies with you". And may I ask, what makes you think that flying isn't his thing?

[onehotflyer]

Well thats the only reason why he would have been told to hit the road. Having been to 43 and I go back as often as I can, I know that that would be the only reason why he didnt make it. If he had to fly with other instructors to get their opinion then he obviously was that good. No use making excuses for him. We cant all be good at everything, im sure he will find his calling somewhere else and the aviation industry will rejoice when he does.

[Flyer14]

I think that 43 is over-rated and they over-rate themselves - yes I've been there. I've seen more than one guy (sponsored and private) get washed under dubious circumstances and continue their flying elsewhere. 90% of those guys are now flying for various S.A. companies airlines and contract, as I keep in touch with them. That's just my observation. 43 is not the end-all and be-all of training.

[onehotflyer]

Well they are not the only one but I have dealt with other training schools in S.Africa and the UK and none of them came close to 43. Maybe they are more expensive but then at the end of the day you pay for what u get.
There were a few guys turned away whilst I was there also which I think is a good thing. Why keep on taking a parent or a companies hard earned cash, spending hours training someone who is always going to be mediocre. All they would be doing is giving them a licence to go and kill themselves or themselves and a whole lot of people.

[Lex44]

OHT,
What are you smoking? Generalisations! Guess the indefensible can still be defended. Same way the UK did lend support to the Apartheid by refusing to impose sanctions - they could see nothing wrong. We all now know there was something wrong in the end. 43 maybe isnt all it's crapped out to be.
Somebody should be told why they are washed.
If mQ didnt cause an accident on 'this many solo hours' who is oht to predict he will once he gets his licence? Denying racism? Yourself you cant be a victim there.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Or may be the truth is so vague and undefined that everyone can have a good self righteous, chest beating spout wherever your views lie.

Meanwhile another, far smaller, thread showing the collective, worldwide value and perception of your licences taking another nose dive into the crapper through corruption is spared your faux concern, outrage or, god preserve us, action and evidence.

Interesting priorities.

Do you lot just bitch or simply expect 4HP and a couple of other good guys to make things happen for you?

Rob

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
That's a trifle along the lines of a rock in the sky post, an arrester wire of a missive!
The presumption here has to be a reference to the alleged licence purchase possibilities at certain southern hemisphere civil aviation authorities?
The truth of the matter really is that the state of affairs at 43rd or any other flight school anywhere is irrelevant if the licence system and thus the appropriate CAA itself is corrupt?
As the holder of a lapsed ZA ATPL who has been trying to resurrect it for some time now, this pilot has found the CAA to be less than helpful and quite dilatory in arriving at any conclusion whatsoever. The South African CAA, from this pilot's seat, behaves with all its old fashioned portcullised ignorance which was as much a characteristic of the Afrikaans management as it is under the new tribal authority. In fact, one would consider perhaps, possibly paying, shall we say, a dividend, just to expedite the delay and accomplish the mission. Thereby hangs the rub of course for if someone who really has no serious use for a South African licence any longer, a licence which he has once earned, held and operated under, has become so exasperated that he is prepared to cut the corners, think what the pressures must be under for those who can actually make money out of the arrangement and who is not up to the mark, especially if a somewhat underhanded route is the only one available?
Perhaps it would ginger things up a bit if such a CAA came amiss at its ICAO audit?
Probably, even were that to happen, the disgrace would be meaningless to those who should be abashed at it and simply lead to a raising of whatever charges might, or might not, already be levied for extracurricular paperwork.
Perhaps someone in the know could post the designation and details of the ICAO operative heading any inspection in order that reports could be sent to that organization. Reports which would, of course, have to be absolutely anonymous lest sudden decapitation await the insidious troublemaker?
As for the state of affairs at 43rd itself, one has absolutely no knowledge of the place whatsoever, although the name itself is more than mildly pretentious. It could be, of course, that there are those in South Africa who believe that those from other countries in Africa have come to 43rd in order to take advantage of a certain rumoured easy licence advantage route. If such were the case, then of course a certain degree of nationalistic pride may be making itself felt. Nationalism and racism are really not of the same emotional fabric and should not be confused, although they can both produce the same rather unpleasant form of discrimination. Indeed, it could perhaps be argued that nationalism is a European concept of separation whereas racism is an African one; parallel concepts with the same unhappy results. No matter then, but perhaps those who are obliged to seek flight training in countries other than their own and who feel that as a consequence of such action they become victims of circumstance or location had best direct their attention to their own governments in order to establish their own training schools appropriate to their desired standards.

[musaQ]

Verticalspeed,
The external assessor or a company captain idea has always been floated by students. Whenever a company captain visited the school, things would be swept under the carpet. Stuff would surface when the guy is far away to do any good.
I think the "PPRuNe test" is also a brilliant idea. That way the committment to teach is there from the word go since selection is done by the institution. No need for a 'selection' after enrollment. It would also be hypocritical washing the person you recommend.

[I.R.PIRATE]

What would be the point of trusting a school to create and form young pilots, and then not trusting them to make the call as to who cuts it or not.??

[AnnieTheFanny]

Young Man

I have no doubt (by your extended vocabulary) that you are quite intelligent. My question is: Do you go out for a social evening with friends and try to impress and bore them at the same time by speaking in elevated English, in the same way as you post here on PPrune?
If you want to post, keep it simple for the general populace. We are all very impressed, but get the drift...

[musaQ]

The whole point is not to limit the school. It avoids a duplication of sorts. If you are not happy with the company selection, then maybe you should be allowed a hand in the selection. That way you wont turn back on your selection and allege things you didnt see while making the 'professional opinion' on who you want to bring on board. Allegations such as those made here about flying not being 'in the blood' would not arise.
Simply the school selects who it really wants to train and it better deliver.

[AnnieTheFanny]

And to you SaMusa...

You seem to have been the victim of abuse. Perhaps it's time you sought councilling, because it's quite apparent that you are not getting the joy or attention that you so desperately crave in this forum. Yaaaawwwn...

[AnnieTheFanny]

MVS - When you have mastered the art of reading, then bother to post a reply. My post about LANGUAGE was addressed to Cheetah. Now climb back under your rock, Sunshine!

[ERASER]

Dear MQ

Before you left your home base to start your training in SA at 43, did your sponsor explain their exact requirements, the performance levels and minimum standards they expected from you? Was this expected performance levels and standards given to 43 and did they comply, did you comply? Did your sponsor give you their contact details should you experience any difficulty in SA? Did you and the rest of the group complained about your problems?
You, most probably being part of a group of sponsored trainees have yet to mention the group size and the total of graduates and/or washed trainees. Did you take up the alleged “racist” behaviour and other complaints with the CFI? When you realized nothing was being done by the 43 staff, did you take it up with your company captain when he visited? When you where washed your sponsor should have been present and/or held an “exit” interview with you. Did your sponsor explain the reasons you where found to be unfit to continue their training program and did you inform them of your troubles at 43? What was the reaction of your sponsor regarding the serious complaints and accusations? Did your sponsor abandon you is SA, repatriated you back home, did you return to SA or did you by mutual consent remain in SA?

It is so very sad to see that a person may “bash” a flight school and instructor from another country without that school/instructor being given a chance to explain, defend or admit. Just because a “brother” said this then it must be the truth, guilty until proven otherwise………especially when it comes to a certain race in SA. The most obvious is brushed aside and the nicest and biggest sympathy drawing excuse for my failure is dragged closer and dished up………..this will also keep my new school on their toes………When in Rome do as the Romans………

E

[SuperVanRider]

MusaQ!

I just want to highlight a few things for you. I trained at 43 myself and got my CPL there. Oh, by the way I'm black too.

I went there to follow my dream and not to sit down and analise the Airschool. I understand that you were a Cadet. True that you guys are under pressure. Pressure works like a pyramid. You are not alone!!!!!:=

Its starts from the Goverment, to the Airline,to the CAPT in charge of the Cadets, to the Airschool: The CFI, Safety Officer, Instructors, YOU, the Cook, the Cleaner, the Driver and even the security gaurd at the gate!

Dont you think that the fact that your instructors and the CFI pushed you hard in order for you to be what the your sponsor requires? You might have mistaken that for racism as most of the instructors there a predominantly white.:)

On the other hand there is a tendancy for black peope to use racism as an excuse of not working hard enough and making the most of what little opportuinity one gets. The time is over for that, we are all the same in this world and no preferences go with colour MusaQ.

I dont want you to mislead yourself in believing that people hate you because of your colour! Its not like that. And if this racism does exist in 43, I couldn't see or find it when I did my trinning!

I'm not saying this out of anger but out of concern and worry over a fellow aviator. I'm black too and trust me, I dont see the difference!

Be strong buddy, work hard and you'll see how great life is! Enjoy flying, it has no colour!!!!:ok:

[Lex44]

ATF,
Your posts are irrelevant to this forum and your bias is duly noted. You've already taken a side without addressing any issue. Get over yourself and learn your spelling.
Counselling not councilling.
PS: Those who offered spelling lessons aptly left.

[Lex44]

If I may be allowed to address some issues here:
An institution that claims to train world class pilots must not fall short. Measures must be taken to integrate different cultures within its confines. The school either failed its students or vice versa judging by the ex-43 comments I have come across.

The more I read this string the more am convinced something did happen at 43. Maybe this is all true - logically how do you expect someone who lived through a discriminatory regime yesterday to wake up one day when the order changes and 'embrace' the previously disadvantaged race and banish any bias he had overnight. Wounds take time to heal. The way I see it Africa is ready for 43 but 43 is not ready for Africa. Those unwilling to change surely must be repalced by those who are committed to a 'global village'.

In my curiosity I sought to ask around about state of affairs at 43 and wasnt surprised. The tales are varied but there seems to be an agreement that something is amiss. And here is the shocker - even those who 'graduate' in the end are deeply concerned about what happens behind the curtains. An official at 43 once went to Nairobi to iron out matters involving the school.

If it's true that the school feigns innocence when the 'captain' visits and only takes out the wash card when he is gone then that's a sad tale. Very sad. Very, very ..sad.

The way I see it those who defend the school have helped to expose the prejudices that may exist with one using phrases as "sitting in your mudhut, in some hole of a country". If it's true he is ex-43 and that he trained with some kenyans then he just got busted on what he thought of the kenyans.
Some have judged musaQ to be an "inferior" pilot without second thought on the strength of umh .. HEARSAY. Their 'friends' have continued the bashing on the strength of umh .... more HEARSAY. Some have been quick to defend the school and validate that by claiming to know some kenyan 'friends' who have no complaints while truth be told the rules of association at 43 are 'defined' - how can you know someone's grievances if you dont associate with them socially? Somebody must be able to trust you to tell you his fears.:confused:

I am more keen on ex-43s rather than those who claim to visist the institution often and claim not to suffer any racism. Look at the perpetrators again.:)

In our haste to judge the school I also think we must give credit to those at 43 who are true to their cause - give their best despite having stubborn students. I know of a chap at 43 who can take anyone and mould them to be the best pilot with patience.
His philosophy: 'only birds have flight abilities in their genes, all of us start at the same level and CAN learn'. Kudos!:D :D

Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill-will. :E

PS: And rumour has it that KQ will take action in future - hopefully soon. The way I see it, it either stops the program or some understanding is reached on the treatment of its cadets. If and when that happens, remember you first heard it on PPRuNe.:(

[ugflyer]

Ma man Lex, I stand behind you 100%. Unfortunately, I cannot write with passion anymore since I have been slapped with a "gag order". But on the whole, we should all be aware that no one gets over their beliefs and traditions overnight. Especially those that have been followed for the better part of a century.
ATF get a life! It is quite obvious you lack one........maybe spend more time checking your grammar rather than bashing everyone around.
And to everyone else; for those that think there is an issue that needs to be addressed, my hat's off to you. And for those that do not, I have no words for you.
"If it looks like a chicken and walks like a chicken, then IT IS a chicken"

I told you ug - don't post inciteful claptrap that has no avaition content; there are many websites that cater for those with a beef with those of another skin color. Go find one. See you in a few weeks. 4HP

[musaQ]

E,
'The requirements' if any are not laid out in the open. Just lessons. The non disclosure gives the school reason enough to intimidate students on 'standards'. And yes we did contact the company to complain but obviously the school isnt happy when you bypass 'the chain' and go telling on them. Pretend to sort out and wash.

SVD,
I wouldnt use my being black to get any mileage. Doesnt work like that where I come from. What excuse would i make in Kenya?
You're right there: LET'S FIX IT!

[TomBola]

I found the thread interesting despite the spelling. What counts at the end of the day is the meaning. My company sends (black) sponsored students to School 43 and a number of our pilots have sponsored themselves through there. After UgFlyer has been gagged, I'll not comment on their experiences, nor will I be visiting the thread again as it's been officially killed.

G'bye! - Ugflyer rammed his own gag down his throat. Do yourself a favor - do a search on Ugflyer's previous posts; see how his agenda has shifted and how, in the recent past, there has been no aviation content in his theme - just a continued blathering in support of his racially skewed manifesto. There's no room for racism or xenophobics on this forum. Live with it. 4HP

[I.R.PIRATE]

have any successful Kenyan students accused 43 of racism?:hmm: , or nigerians, Rwandans or anyone that has passed?

Secondly, howcome foreigners writing Kenyan exams fail for sure the first time they write??

[Foxyflyer]

Good point Pirate. The KCAA don't like foriegn pilots and do everything they can to stop you getting a Kenyan licence :ugh:

[I.R.PIRATE]

I know...all too well.

[Lex44]

Ugflyer - sorry to hear about your predicament. Hope to see you back soon.:)

SuperVanRider,
I see you edited your post. Thanks for making some words and sentences bold. Your Point? You being black means ......? And I realise you admit you have '[few] opportunities' because of your race. History has shaped the present and we need to get it right now to shape the future. I was just wondering, does affirmative action work foy you?:ugh:

I.R.P and foxy,
Are you victims of racism in Kenya? If yes, would that make it okay for musaQ's trauma? :}

If I amy quote IRP ".... howcome foreigners writing Kenyan exams fail for sure the first time they write??"

Do I sense a trend here? Where are those guys who accused mQ of crying 'racism' to explain away his suppossedly "lack of skill/commitment" despite the facts that came forth. Oh I forgot, the shoe does feel weird on the other foot.:ugh:

NO I WONT SINK THAT LOW. I'll go the tried and tested way and ask for facts. Do you have statistics to support that?
Do ALL foreigners fail the first time they write? If they do pass the second time, what's the big deal? They PASS eventually as you imply!:O

I know of Kenyans who failed the first time - KCAA didnt constitute a commission to gauge whether they were genuine kenyans.:E

TomBola - I think it would be fair if you aired your comments here. You only left speculation. You must help the discussion move forward. The mod has been very accomodating thus far. Your comments on 'their experiences' will be much valued in this forum.:rolleyes:

[I.R.PIRATE]

Lex you are right to a certain extent, which in fact helps me rest my case. I am not crying racism!:hmm: I asked about foreigners, not any specific colour. The fact that I did get it first time had nothing to do with my skin colour - or better not have...

Anyway, it is a well known fact that unless you do something very special, there is just no way that you will pass the exams first time up - why is that??:oh: and that comes from the lips of a kenyan pilot by the way.

So what did I do?? Well I just shut up and rewrote and passed, because as an african I know that sometimes logic does not always preface a decision by state departments, and organisations that are rather murky when judged on transparency....

So now we still havent reached the answer to my previous question. Why is it only ever the failures that cry racism, and never the guys that stand and and be counted as successful? You know why....:cool:

[Lex44]

IRP,
'The fact that i did get it first time' and then you go ahead and say you rewrote it. Which is which?
I applaud you moving on. But you have come back to question the 'murky' reputation of state depts. That i applaud too. Just because you moved on doesnt mean you shouldnt raise a red flag to warn those that come after you. The onus is on you to correct what you deem unfair. Racism should be judged in that light too - something unfair (take away the emotions)
Thank you for helping me rest my case too!!

[I.R.PIRATE]

Just a typo there Lex, sorry, I meant DIDNT
I dont think one can fix what is "unfair" in africa...I think you know that too...:bored:

[Lex44]

Error duly noted. Officialy 'unconfused'.

We can change what's unfair in Africa in little steps if need be. What happened to mq is unfortunate.The poor lad was visibly shaken, caught in a crossfire far from home in a 'fight' he had no part in. I feel his pain. And to be subjected to mockery and insults in this forum is rather unsettling.

Adieus.

[4HolerPoler]

Lex - your posts are going the same way ug's - no more aviation and more whinging, racially centered bleating. This is an aviation forum.

I don't need to say any more.

4HP

[musaQ]

For the umpteenth time I would like to correct the notion that crying racism justifies anything. :=

"have any successful Kenyan students accused 43 of racism?":confused:
Yes other students coming out successfully have cried racism plus a horde of other ills. Kenya is a closed culture and a person being picked on because of the colour of their skin is something new to many. Yes we hear about it but we don’t experience it. If others are conditioned to it, believe me a Kenyan will spot it the first time. I wouldn’t want to put words in their mouths so their input in this forum will definitely come in handy.

Kenyans at 43 constitute less than 15% of the population but unfortunately account for the majority of the wash outs (in excess of 70%). The numbers speak volumes and stereotypes have arisen because of it – Kenyans can’t fly that good in the formative stages to Kenyans should take longer to get their PPL and all kind of demeaning statements which only help to perpetuate bias.:*:*

On another score the students used to complain to the company but them being hundreds of miles away you can only do so much. So they Call for a meeting with the chaps for an honest exchange. What happens? The students are afraid of being victimized and the school doesn’t make it any easier. In the meeting when a student rises to speak, the response from the chaps is like - ‘seems we don’t have a problem with you, next please’. This only works to disenfranchise the students and singles out the ‘problematic students’. If I don’t have ‘problems’ my concerns shouldn’t be addressed? Needless to say the meeting had to be held for a second time because the first time the students chickened out.

Like I said before I never doubted my flying skills. Flying is a passion once you start you don’t want to stop. I had many PIC hours from 43 and I enjoyed every one of them. :ok:
Walking out of that gate I knew it hadn’t worked out not because of lack of skill but because of high handedness.:sad:

" When you where washed your sponsor should have been present and/or held an “exit” interview with you. Did your sponsor explain the reasons you where found to be unfit to continue their training program and did you inform them of your troubles at 43?":confused:
The sponsor usually doesnt have much to work on for washed students -just an opinion drafted from the school (biased of course). The main thing was always missing. The training file that every student has that records all his flights and comments on them.
Leaving school, the story is: only the company can request for it and on reaching the company the school claims it is a confidential file that is a property of the school. Any justice in that? Surely a crucial file as that should be provided to the sponsor to explain the wash out.

The forum should open debate on what guidelines exist for washing and shouldn’t they be known to both parties?:confused:

Happy flying everyone and have a truthful day.:):)

[UnDies]

For F:mad: Sake - lets bin this thread - MusaQ, get over it!! Everything happens for a reason mate! You`re starting to make a fool of yourself -
4HolerPoler please bin this thread!! :ugh:

[mkenya]

I happened to have passed through 43 air school. and the only other time I felt that worthless was when I had just joined high school and was bullied alot.
In the introductory lecture we were told that 40% of us wouldn't make it through the training. Apparently the ground school would wash off most of us ( 26 successful applicants out of the 15,000 that applied.. all the applicants had a mean of B+ and above!!!!, the selection process consisted of an aptitude test administered by the airforce, and a psychometric test whereby the psycho motor skills of the applicants were compared to those of the best pilots!!!!)
Alas!!! We didn't have to wait till ground school by the time we got our PPLs most of us we down the drain, that is around 27% of us.... which one of the directors commented was a very good pass rate. the ones before us had a failure rate of more than 50%
Interestingly, in the ground school CAA comm exams our class recorded the highest pass rate ever! we had a mean of 93% for a class of more than 20. Of the whole group, only two dropped a paper each and all the papers were done in one sitting...
Afterwards, the comments were that kenyans can only pass exams, but not fly.

[theBOSS]

Well done on your classes mean % at the CAA sitting!! What was the class % when you guys wrote PPL at 43? Just curious?:E

[Vref +10]

We don't need this Just BIN THIS THREAD please
DAMMIT:ugh:

[oerlikon]

What an irritating thread, made more so by the amount of replies it has recieved (yes I know I am just adding another one).

MusaQ, one of the lessons I learn't early on in aviation as well as in life is that you will be faced by many trials. If you can't get past it then you will remain in a rut. You need to grow up, rise above the situation and get on with your life and your career.

This issue with regards to your treatment at 43 should be taken up with the correct authorities, in this case your sponsors. I doubt very much that they would happily write off the money they have already invested in you without questioning your wash-out from 43. I also believe they have a moral obligation to investigate your allegations. Have they done so at all or are they content with the status quo? You have a right to demand an explanation from them, if they are prepared to listen to you.

I also doubt that other airlines would send cadets to 43 if such conditions existed and was a policy of the school.

However, it is very possible you encountered racialistic undertones, from an individual or individuals. Those sort of people will always exist in society and when the descrimination is not across the colour bar it is called tribalism, of which I am sure you are more familiar. My advice once again is to put it behind you and enjoy the company of fellow pilots who accept you for what you have achieved and who you are.

If, at this point you are still unhappy, I suggest you contact Carte Blanche, it is the kind of expose' they would love to sink their teeth into and I am sure it will put an end to the rumours, allegations, and insinuations and, as you said, speak the truth.

And as for Mkenya, I hope the simulator training is going well.

[Lex44]

The thread has been an eye opener for me. I have learnt a lot and I've tried to give all in my 2 cents worth.

Our industry needs well trained pilots at peace with themselves. Pilots face similar challenges as all other folks and this thread provides that interaction. Pilots are world citizens and so bias should be beyond us.:cool:

orlikon - the sacarsm is duly noted about the vacancies.:yuk:

[musaQ]

It's common knowledge that flying is not everyones cup of tea. I can not condone mediocrity and safety should be the number one priority of any flying school. I wont vouch for you if you cant hack it. If you can, you deserve all the support. Psychological factors also play a part in our flying - we all know that all too well. One's state of mind at a flying institution affects his flying by extension. Nobody can achieve his potential by intimidation.
Graduates should look back at their alma-mater with pride not shame. If not, something is/was amiss.:O
50% wash out is too high for candidates who pass through so much 'tests' to clinch a sponsorship.

I agree - every aviator has undergone trouble to get where they are. Some are part of the job and some are unneccessary. This forum gives us the chance to share that. Let's approach this with open minds and dont lose our heads. Does the industry train 'natural aviators'? Surely there's a base limit for all aviators.:)
As aviators in the indstry we can set the base limits for others to learn from. Let's carry out a healthy debate. Shall we?

oerilkon,
Please remove the last sentence of your post. It paints you in very bad light.
Now you get my point that some things dont have to be said outrightly but you can always get the drift. Subtle hints!:(
4HP Please.

[oerlikon]

musaq (and mkenya for this paragraph). Both of you refer to the drop out rate of cadets during training. It would seem that you feel because you have already been pre-selected to attend the school you should automatically be passed. In every selection process throughout the world the premiss is that those who have been pre-selected are those most likely to succeed, not gauranteed to succeed. Is that clear? The drop-out rate is generally high at schools or training institutions where a high standard for the finished product is expected. Just remember, those who are paying for their own training do not have the same constraints placed upon them as a sponsored student. They have the luxury of taking as long as they like until their money runs out. You, however, have the luxury of not having to worry about finances, but your responsibility is to your sponsors. Sometimes this means putting personal feelings aside (and I will not say that's easy), and get on with the job in hand.

Your sponsor invests money in you and expects that that money will not be wasted. Once again: Have you approached your sponsors to investigate this matter? It would be remiss of them to turn a blind eye to your allegations and still send cadets to the school. I cannot believe they would continue in a business relationship with the school if they were unhappy.

Now, as for that file you mentioned? Is that the pilot training file that your instructor fills out after every lesson and that you are supposed to countersign? You should know full well what is written in that file. I imagine, that legally speaking, the sponsors are the owners of that file because they have paid for your training at the school. When you decided to continue training on your own did you not ask for a copy of that file so that the next flight school would know how far you had progressed?

It would have been very unreasonable of them not give you a copy of that file.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

It might be an idea for someone south of the green and greasy to contact the shool and inform them of this controversy raging on Pprune.
Mind you though, it is somewhat hard to imagine that they are not already aware of the fact that their training philosophy has been called in to question and so possibly the 43rd has already decided not to become involved in this debate of a rather tricky nature.
The problem arises, of course, outside ZA in particular. When asked to recommend a school in South Africa for flying training or hour building or whatever; does one now, in possession of such scant information, put 43rd's name forward with the proviso that it is really a white man's flying school, so it might not suit you, old bean - or what?
A certain degree of clarification is required here and this can only come from the school itself, notwithstanding the fact that a student's flight record is entirely a private matter.:E

[musaQ]

oerlikon,
Thank you for taking down the line. I can only hope it was an accidental oversight.

... pre-selected are those most likely to succeed, not gauranteed to succeed...Well put.
Like I said earlier, I wont vouch for you if you cant hack it and if you can you need all the support not intimidation. In the case in point the selection criteria for the 'pre-selected' should be above board to leave no doubt in anyones mind that it is in the interest of all parties involved and all walk away happy. Dont leave trails of bias by keeping a training file as 'confidential' and singling out 'problematic students' to bash them further and not help them..... the list is long!:confused:

Like I said in an earlier post 'high standards' of an institution are judged by the quality of output not the percentage of wash out (The two may be argued to be correlated but such high percentages are seen down the chain before 'pre-selection'). Work with what you have to produce quality and wash if neccessary but dont wash to intimidate or pretend to enforce high standards.:sad:

And at what stage should one be washed? Definetely not months into the flying programme.Flying abilities cannot be unlearned along the way, or can they?. Kenyans at 43 first fight the wash out then REALLY learn to fly after that. It's a sorry state but that's how the cookie crumbles.:sad:
A simple law of averages tells you that if the wash out for a particular group is this much then another group's wash rate should match or be close (not NIL) - no pun intended. The assumption here is that all airlines would want its pilots to be of [almost] the similar 'high standards'.

What are the intentions of a school that tells you 40% would be washed. Do they intend to teach flying or first find the 40% and then take it on from there? What cuts and how are the aviator-wannabes coping during this stage?

I cannot believe they would continue in a business relationship with the school if they were unhappy.
I cant claim to speak for the company but PPRuNe is always open and future groups, if any, will be kind enough to let us know - word does get around. They wil also benefit from the discussions herein. All I can say is that the "happy relationship" has been threatened before and 'smoothed out', - or so we thought.

You describe the file in question well and are right on the score:
It would have been very unreasonable of them not give you a copy of that file.
Well... guess what? The file is NOT released. It should come in handy when you are explaining to your sponsor why you 'flanked'. It beats logic why it is claimed to be 'confidential' by the school yet you had access to it during your training and you countersigned the lessons. The reconcilliation of the file and the drafted report would make an interesting reading. A washed student simply trotters back home with a report(biased) which you have no defence against. The sponsor wouldnt want to argue with a 'professional opinion' now would he?

Maybe this forum could create a "PPRuNe test" along the way. A healthy debate would suffice.

[oerlikon]

I am not legally trained, musaQ, but I do believe you have a right to a copy of your training file, if not to use as ammunition against the school, then at least for use in furthering your aviation career (as I stated previously, any school you join will need to have a record of what you have done so far). If the school is not willing to furnish you with a copy of the file then perhaps you should consider legal means of attaining it. (;) Have a look at www.sahrc.org.za (http://www.sahrc.org.za) with reference to PAIA, the Promotion of Access to Information Act 2 of 2000, makes for interesting reading in your case)

With regards to wash-out. Is it not possible that the sponsors send a number (lets say twenty for example) of cadets to the school, with the aim of getting a percentage (lets say 10 in number) of qualified pilots out.
They have set a target of pilots they require and an associated budget to finance those pilots. The money spent on training those pilots is an investment that they will one day hope to get a return on. They will most likely, then, only invest in the top percentage of the cadets at the school. It is business, after all. That then leaves those who fall outside of the percentage required by the sponsor. Unfortunately they are told to leave.
If there is such a business deal between your sponsor and the school, then it appears you have been caught on the unfortunate side of the percentage line.

Now, having said that, it does not mean your abilities are any less than those who were in fact advanced by the school. A flying career is, hopefully, a lengthy undertaking. There are pilots who get accepted for airlines, with thousands of hours of flying, but who fail to make the grade and are washed on line check-rides. You may have had a slow start to your career, but it is not the end of it, you need to build on what you have achieved so far. People will respect you more for that than for complaining on how unfair you feel you have been treated.

And by no means am I saying you should look the other way if you feel you have been exposed to racism at the school. Hand the matter over to people who are in a better position to deal with it, such as the public media, who are not personally involved but can give an objective insight into the matter.

Consider your career like a runway. Its more important what's available in front of you than what's left behind you.

[theBOSS]

Okes bin it. Cant believe how worked up you okes get,because some Kenyan believes SA or 43 has nailed him!! screw this oke,actually **** him.maybe he should go to a school in the US,lets see if he makes it then. ill put my $100 on it!!

[Lex44]

My two cents worth:

The file situation seems to have been exhausted. May I reccommend a rule to guide future PPRuNers who may be drawn to this thread to 'learn' from it.

1. A student's training file should be released to the student failure to which the student is obligated to contact SAHRC for its release. The first Act passes the P-test and if the second act is needed to enforce the first, the concerned has failed the P-test.:ok:

About the high standards for the sponsored students(Airline). I think separate set of instructors should be assigned to them. I hear there's a JAA programme at 43 and these students have their own set of instructors. I also hear the students of european descent have not suffered a wash out. Commendable but maybe the set of instructors is doing the trick.
For the Airline students to have similar instructors as others but be subjected to higher standards is a catch 22. Consider two students under the same instructor - one airline, the other private - who are obviously taught the same (I presume). If they go for a stage check do we need to apply higher standards for the Airline guy to pass him/her. It wont make sense since they share an instructor. There's my PPRuNe test number two:

2. Airline students under higher standards need higher standard instruction and if this can be secured through assignment of a set of dedicated instructors then be it. The P-test is passed if this is applied in totality.:ok:

More tests?:hmm:

theBOSS - civil debate please. mQ might be the driver of your 'bird acquisition' for all you know. You wouldnt want to p**s of your P1 now would you?:}

[musaQ]

oerlikon - Thanks for the legal advice. Too bad I didnt get a copy of MY file. If i had the info then, maybe ....
They can keep it now for all I care - for my stage my log book served me well with the stamps. I still would have relished the 'ammunition' - as you call it - to clear the air and move on with a clear conscience.
About the sponsor requiring a certain percentage of cadets it sponsors, I can say with confidence that that is not the case. Why give the impression to a group that no matter how hard they try half of them wouldnt make the cut. They might as well not try at all and wait until the cut is made since half are 'assured'. I believe there's a minimum base for all aviators.
My experience was of utter shock at flimsy grounds for picking on a cadet.:confused:

By no way am I complaining, just giving the next guy information to help him along. PPRuNe is a good start as it enjoys the opinion of fellow aviators.:cool:

Nice idea Lex'.:D

theB - get a life, your money would be better spent on those you've ** it from. Go boss someone else around!:E

[Lex44]

Many a student has been washed on the backdrop of many 'tutors' intentionally set up or otherwise. Who taught you that? Instructor no. X
Here goes,

3. Upto 2 instructors for a pre-PPL is ok. 3 is bearable but past that has ramifications for a student's learning curve. My advice dont let it run that far. That's a set up.

Happy landings.

[oerlikon]

Lexx44 you are absolutely right. There is a lack of continuity when too many instructors are involved.

MusaQ, good luck with the future.:ok:

[Lex44]

Disclaimer: Dont shoot the messenger!
I have just learnt from the grapevine that:
Some students washed have gone ahead to finish their training elsewhere and meet the same standards set -'the ones they were accused of not meeting!'. Talk of what an environment change can do to a student's morale.:hmm:

About the Nairobi meeting held sometime last year, I hear it was brought about by some explosive case of high handedness and the school directors were at a loss to explain it/them and made concessions to prevent loss of business. :oh:It's all business!

The 'case' had caused a delay in the dispatch of more cadets to the school. Understandably.:ouch:

It is obvious (dare I say) that KQ is one of the school's most valued clients but unfortnately its cadets are the most mistreated! There seems to be a major dislike/envy of the cadets by the school - talk of the necessary evil. What an environment to train in. A FM is rumoured to have said 'we like ripping kenyans of their money!' - whatever that meant.:O

Another set of cadets were sent to another school and the results were better, and they all fared well meeting the same standards set. Another set sent to 43 had worse luck, wash card raised severally and major concerns raised by the students on the procedure followed for this and questionable manner it was done. Different set of cadets selected from the same group of kenyans achieve dissimilar results at different institutions. Ummh...:hmm:

May I digress a little and ask if the school was well prepared for the growth in the last several years? Seems to me that it wasnt - there must be a tradition for handling airline clients and that takes time. Were steps taken in readiness for these new set of clientele? Me thinks that the rapid growth may have fooled some to bahave with impunity. Mistakes will be made along the way, as it shows now, but you must learn from them. Higher standards may have been misconstrued to mean high wash outs regardless. Me thinks if you demand high standards, you must provide a conducive environment for them to be achieved. Nurture the student to be at ease not afraid to achieve his/her potential and be professional when the wash card is raised if necessary. Back your case well. Dont grin!:O

I just happened to see this elsewhere: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28345 . “….recent criticism
that, directed at OATS, about the perceived treatment of airline sponsored cadets versus self-sponsored students.” By Dirk. What was that about and does it mirror what's happening at 43 or was it the opposite - 'airline guys favoured there'?:confused::confused:

Again, dont shoot the messenger. The truth is hard to accept sometimes. Let your eyes wander elsewhere if you cant face it.

[EtAF]

Another set of cadets were sent to another school and the results were better, and they all fared well meeting the same standards set.

That school must be ET. KQ used to send its cadets to ET flying school train. They decided to move most of their business because they felt ET's training was "too long" as opposed to at 43rd.

[Lex44]

Nope, Etaf. That's progress FA. Much better environment. Havent heard any rumblings so far.

[Jlo]

Read it, don't read it... just my opinion:

I'm afraid, having been an instructor, it is quite common for students to think that if they are academically strong, they will be good pilots. Unfortunately this is not necessarily the case.

Lack of command and awareness is usually the main reason why students get washed in the early stages of flying. When something goes wrong or you make a mistake, we want to see that you do something about it. Because they had done so well in the ground school, some clever individuals usually have difficulty understanding why they got washed. You can be a rocket scientist but not have what it takes to be a good pilot. Some students are brilliant when it comes to the theory, but when it comes to applying it and doing the practical side of things, they just don't cope. You can learn all about an aeroplane, but that will not make you a pilot. Passing all your subjects first time does not mean all that much when it comes to the flying. If a student does not take control of the aircraft and whichever situation they find themselves in, they cannot be sent solo. It is not in their best interest either as they may kill themselves.

I don't think any instructor wants someone to fail. You put all that sweat and blood into that person's training and more than anything, you want them to pass. And not just pass, but be the best! My work is my pride! And your students reflect on you and how well you are doing your job. I have never ever ever treated my private students differently to any sponsored students. I trained them all the same. And explained things over and over and over if it was needed. No matter who they were. They are all students to me, no difference. Howcome we are not getting this type of complaint from the private students? And in SA there are many private students of colour! In many of the flying schools. It is funny how students are so good when they pass, but the instructors are the bad ones when they fail. And I am tired of the generalisation that white people are racists. Calling us racist, is racist in my opinion. In the New South Africa, being a white person in a majority black country, I can blame racism as well for everything that has gone wrong in my life. But instead I choose to look inward and analyse what it is that I have done wrong and how I can save the situation instead of blaming other people. It's not going to help much anyway, it will just make it worse.

Some of my best students have been black and I still keep in touch with them. They are all doing well and are very happy. Because they worked hard for it like everybody else who has succeeded. Do your time, and you will get your reward. Nobody said it would be easy! I'm sure that there are still some biased and racist people in the industry, but jumping on the "race" wagon all the time actually makes it worse. People are pleasantly surprised and often change their opinions when you keep at it and prove them wrong. Without making a big fuss of it. Always stay professional, people will see that and respect you for it.

I'm sure many good potential pilots apply to cadet schemes all over the world, but not all of them can make it! When you are a sponsored student, your selection never really stops. So if they need to drop 40% of the guys during PPL training, that is still another phase of selection. No better way to see if someone can fly, than by letting them actually have a go at it. Like I said earlier, being an academic does not mean you will be a good pilot. And unfortunately the academic side is what is tested most in selection processes. Only once the training starts, can it really be seen who has good motor skills, awareness, decision-making, assertiveness, command, etc. I can imagine this 40% cut in students would be enforced by the airline and not by the training school. It wouldn't make any sense otherwise. The school would obviously like as many students as possible to remain with them.
Cadets should guard against making the mistake of thinking that once they have been chosen to go the flying school, that that is it! It's not the end, it is only the beginning. Maybe you pass your comm and then not pass your selection at the airways afterwards? It is a continuous selection process. And they pay for it. It is not someone's right to get the training, it is a priviledge.

When it comes to the training file issue - I'm sure Kenya airways has access to that file as they are the client and i'm pretty sure they look through those files every time they visit the school to see how everyone is doing. The reason that they probably do not want to release the file to the student, is that they have a specialised training layout (or so I have heard) and would not like the rest of South Africa's flying training establishments to get their hands on it if you go there with your file. You should have all the hours flown and exercises done in your logbook. What more do you need when you go to a different flying school? Wouldn't you like them to start you off on a clean page without being influenced by someone else's opinion that they've read?

MusaQ and all other flying students -
I hope that if flying is your passion, you will sit down and rethink how much you want to be a pilot and how you can change your approach to the training. Remember, we cannot control the things outside, but we can control ourselves and how we handle it and feel about it. Flying is all about confidence. And you are the one who has to work on that aspect. I know it is hard when it looks like all the odds are against you, but it is a tough world in aviation out there and you will have to fly with lots of people who will make you feel inferior and useless. That is just the way it is... and in the end it makes you stronger. The training is not for sissy's and you will have to toughen up and take control. It will prepare you for the even tougher world out there. They train you to be, ultimately one day, the captain of an airliner. This is a huge responsibility, and sadly we have recently had a tragedy close to home that made all of us once again realise how huge that responsibility is. In order to make it as a pilot, you need to display that you will not let stress get the better of you. Don't allow yourself to feel intimidated. Because that is something you will encounter throughout your career. Stop thinking that everyone is out to get you - paranoia will not help with your already stressful training situation - and just do your best. If you really want to be a pilot, you will find a way to do it. Lots of guys out there struggle to pay for the licence, but after the long struggle comes the reward. Best of luck to you, never give up.:)

I really hope we can put this thread to rest now:yuk:

[musaQ]

Again am forced to correct some presumptions. :)
JLo,
The wash out happened and I cant look back on that one. I choose to learn from it.I am glad that you make comments about academics. You seem to be well versed on the stereotyping that happens at 43.
Passing all your subjects first time does not mean all that much when it comes to the flying. True it doesnt but it also doesnt afford another the opportunity to rubbish a student's hard work into passing the exams and accuse them of being an "all brainer". That's what exams are for - to be passed and if on first attempt the better. We can not choose to find fault in everything!! Howcome we are not getting this type of complaint from the private students?Therein lies your answer if you look closely enough.
I can imagine this 40% cut in students would be enforced by the airline and not by the training school. It wouldn't make any sense otherwise.Well it doesnt make sense either way. The wash out should be incidental and not predetermined. It wouldnt make sense if an airline would demand 40% cut from 43 and almost 0% from another institution that it sends its cadets to.
I am all for the wash out if necessary. Others have gone ahead to get their licences in other flying institutions successfully meeting the same standards - that in itself says a lot.
The school would obviously like as many students as possible to remain with them.Therein lies your answer again. In a wicked business sense of course. Somebody explained it earlier.
The reason that they probably do not want to release the file to the student, is that they have a specialised training layout (or so I have heard) and would not like the rest of South Africa's flying training establishments to get their hands on it if you go there with your file. That's a new twist to it. Contention was not on taking the file to another training institution, it was on making it available to the sponsor for the 'exit' interview of a washed cadet. The okes at 43 selectively highlight the 'not so good' flights and exaggerate them to paint a picture only known to them and the rest of the flights are pushed to oblivion. Given that their opinions are formed from what they read in the file and decisions made on theoretical presumptions then it is only fair that the sponsor be given the same chance to form his opinion on what he reads from the same complete file. The student report simply highlights 'what is not' and disregards 'what is'. If a concurrency of opinion would be reached by both parties given all the information then who is to cry foul. That's professionalism for me. :ouch:

On a personal level, part of my stay at 43 was the lowest point in my life so far. I've never felt so beat down and abused, chided for no apparent reason, confidence beaten down to a pulp - all this from the person meant to guide and form pilots to the surprise of other cadets and instructor. Knowing what I know now, I wouldnt take up a position at 43 and if I did I definetly wouldnt live through the bashing and derision of an individual with a presumptive mind who would foment charges and make sure the tussle is long drawn to inflict the most pain. Then grin with contentment. I wouldnt offer him that satisfaction. I offer The next guy the info to tread wisely and know when the psychological games start he can opt to walk with his dignity intact.
Nevertheless I did meet some impeccable individuals. :ok:

Like I said, I choose to learn from it. It has shaped me.:cool:
All the best.

[Lex44]

Fact is, the "sponsor" sends "cadets" (whom they believe to be fit and suitable for pilot training after a rigorous selection process) to a flying training school to train, teach and shape such cadets into well-rounded, fully capable qualified commercial pilotsWell said MAINTAINVERTICALSPD! Couldnt have put it better myself. The last part says it all "train, teach and shape" not "intimidate, pick on and subject to prejudice". Doesnt matter that the student is an airline sponsored chap and the instructor a wannabe. It's not a competition of dreams. Envy or prejudice have no place in a flying institution that trains Africans in Africa! Many an instructor have wondered how the 'dimwit'(their words) I train will end up in an airline job. Am better than he is now - PICK ME!

The fact that the students are preselected and have a higher chance of succeeding is enough against such rubbish talk of a 40% wash rate. Funny bit is that the Private sponsored students who are not subjected to any pre-selection have an almost 100% pass rate is pathetic and yet they dont take longer. Bias for everyone to see!!! Logic puts it that you are more likely to drop students from a group that has had no pre-selection than the one that has had one. Plain and simple. 40%:1% is too big a disparity! Wake up and smell the coffee and let's call what happens at 43 for what it is. Some have taken the attitude akin to: 'it may be a "shaggy" dog, but it's our dog'.:suspect:

I stand to be corrected but I heard SAA cadets had similar sh1t happening and SAA stamped its foot down and the crap stopped. That energy is now directed to...... you guessed it.:sad: Students have talked of instructors hell bent on making sure they get washed and do everything short of admitting it by mouth. Where's the priority - train or wash?:sad::sad:

And for crying out loud if you wash a cadet be brave enough to state why? The training file is a good starting point where progress can be clearly seen. A favourite of 43 is to change Instructors for a student every other lesson to confuse him/her and then brandish the wash card from the blues. Funny bit, even though this is known to have major implications on a student's training it never appears in the infamous report. It's a good cover up. If a student is truly weak why bother to hide the training file - facts should be able to speak for themselves.And let's not kid ourselves about flying being 'in the blood'. Taking a decision to pursue aviation is commitment and to take the dream further to a flying institution is part realisation but to be denied that chance because of prejudice is inhuman.:sad::sad::sad:

Me thinks private student = money for the school and if I mistreat them there will be no more of those. My bad! I'll treat them well.:ok::ok:
Sponsored student = company and company = money. The dimwit doesnt pay me, the company does. All I have to do is present a pretty face to the company that all is going on well but down here pick on a few nut cases to bash. Play these against the rest -"all the others are doing ok but you". It's a win win situation for me - I pretend to enforce high standards while the company will replace the washed cadets and that's more $$$. Ching!$$ It's a psychological thriller! An art perfected by the fixed wing chaps. Rotor guys have no problems or so I heard. They have a better chap who's beyond this prejudice packaged as 'high standards'.

That's my take.

[Irene]

Well said Lex44

[SIMBA KALI]

Where there is smoke , there is fire...most definately
Judging from the comments made in this forum and other related articles about 43rd, we all can't go around bashing some one for his sincerity. Well, I once wanted to join this so called 43rd air school but opted for a training facility somewhere in Texas. Well ,racism is still very much alive and unfortunately ....majority bashing the kid about this matter have never been victim so such. Been in the good old U.S.A and been one. At the same South Africa still is scared with racism issues to which are there to stay. Sorry my Kenyan brother....you just happened to be one who got the racism sting while others in the lot are in denial. Any day allegations such as racism come up.....they do hold water. So guyz, if you never been victim...especially our brothers of color...buckle up, thats a flu that is color biased !!!!:E

[SIMBA KALI]

Well my suticase man.....

All am trying to say is that tyhe young man has more ballas than you to call a spade as spade and not a big spoon. Sorry, I didn't take your lunch money either. Be a victim of what the kid is talking about then you might understand how that :mad:feels ....comprende amigo ??

[Lex44]

suitcase,
Easy for you to say -'get over it'? Is that part admission that racism is rife at 43 and that we should find a way to accept it. Clearly you be no victim. YOU GET OVER IT. And yes this is an aviation forum where an aviation institution is charged with practising prejudice. Or are aviators immune to it? If something is gnawing at your conscience it probably is true. Wishing it away aint gonna solve it.

Is this comprehensible? Tell them simba.

[SIMBA KALI]

Mr Suitcase man......
You sound like another coward who can not stomach reality when it hits home. Well I thought this forum talks about anything and everything in aviation and that includes the "bug" that is yet to byte and squeeze the living hell out of you ...possibly one day you will wake up your sleezy behind and realize some people live in the real world where racism is still a factor in life. Sorry....here two hawaii shirts for your suitcase ...leave your attitude at the door before you join this forum next time and pick it up on your way out;)

[I.R.PIRATE]

oooohhhh I shiver in me boots....

The kenyans are angry.

You have been told suitcase man - now go leave your shirt at the attitude before the forum enters through the door >> or something might pick you out?

huh, whatever:zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::z zz::zzz::zzz:

[I.R.PIRATE]

They call him simba because of the chips.....on his shoulder.

[cavortingcheetah]

:uhoh:
Please do not degrade the Spanish forum. Those who speak Castilian well are at least adept at the usage of the subjunctive tenses, a facet of grammar lost on today's gabblers of what passes for English amongst the chattering and colonial classes.
The English have, for centuries, referred to a Spaniard as a Dago. This is not a pejorative word but rather an abbreviation of Diego or James. In similar vein might the Englishman call the German Fritz or the German call the Englishman Henry. :hmm: perhaps worse, who knows after Dresden? The Spaniard has always been rather better balanced than most Europeans in his racial outlook, if not perhaps historically in his religious one. This is perhaps due to the cultural glories of architecture and intellect bestowed upon their peninsular by the Moors of northern Africa, traditions which, most regrettably, have not been handed down inherent within the teachings of their own kind. So much then for the beneficial influence of the slave trade upon north Africa, with which non sequitur one shall close this little prose passage which bears as much relation to the original post as much else that has been written here before.:cool:

[Lex44]

sweatcase,

You dont cease to amaze me. Yes I have seen your advice and how you took the opprtunity to level you own rants of racism against SAA. Your attention should be focussed to such rants The score seems to be settled in every SAA thread where the canoe sh1t is 'copy - pasted' to rally God knows what. Disrespect has been shown to an African head of state and spouse (NO AVIATION CONTENT) and the chest thumping and laughter. No you aint commenting there! Anybody can see through all these. Instead you choose to mudsling here to reduce this thread to some racial rants because you feel hurt. Oh, dont you wish you had administrator rights to bin it. That way, only you can be the victim (against SAA in your rants in countless threads and bob whenever possible) - No one else.
As we are wont to say "...are you threatening this commission?...":ok: Those who speak Castilian well are at least adept at the usage of the subjunctive tenses, a facet of grammar lost on today's gabblers of what passes for English amongst the chattering and colonial classes - ooh, the venom in that.

And by the way in Africa we dont pride ourselves in speaking faultless English. Pidgin and other adaptations will suffice. Anything to lessen the scar of colonialism. Proper comunication with ATC is all I need.;)

This is an AFRICAN AVIATION forum where we can ALL air our views on aviation. Racism encountered is part of that. Dont reduce this to a class forum where only the likes of you can 'speak' and anything else is rubbish. Show some character now! Spanish forum????? That is sooo .....(CANT find a word). :yuk:
Chui could mentor you despite his skewed views and racial rants cleverly concealed in some form of ENGLISH. If you have nothing to say refrain from showing wordy evidence of it here. You have the choice. Denial aint gonna get you anywhere. :}:}

Dont thank me for the advice yet, just returning a favour.!!! ANything for a brother. As for this thread I'll be glad to post any new stuff I hear. That's my right. Same as yours I hope.:ok::ok: Be well.

[Lex44]

SC,
Apology accepted and gratitude to my advice is welcome. It is refreshing to read your cynical post without the 'bin this thread' rant that has been synonimous with you. Me no smoke and no have extra shirt for you. I'll ask around though if you insist.
Je "Darth Vader" ina maana ya kuwa wewe mi nguruwe mwitu? Mmhh...

To matters concerning topic at hand please.

[SIMBA KALI]

Racism related warble with zilch aviation content deleted.

This is an aviation-related site. Yellow card.

4HP

[I.R.PIRATE]

You would too when you realise that every sunrise is just another day in which you are to be victimised, marginalised and discriminated against.:eek:

[Lex44]

Seems like I missed a post. That's an 'impressive' CV you got there suitcase - 2 black friends and met one the other day. Ha.. No comment. It's cracking me up.

Anyone know of any flying schools in Malaysia? Am keen on what they have to offer. Grapevine connection.

[Lex44]

Guess I'll have to answer my own question: Looked up the far East Forum on Malaysia. The schools seem to be congested so we might not see a reprieve of 'the kenyan pain' at 43 sooner than I thought. :hmm:

If I may be allowed to carry on a discouse on the happenings here in. I have given this much thought and self reflex and the conclusions are mind boggling but I'll spare you that. First things first - where the :mad: is ugFlyer?:confused: (been meaning to ask that for eons). Was the gag indefinite? I admit I was exasperated when he got gagged. But it's been too long. A fellow aviator has been sidelined and no remorse seems to be shown by all of you. Me thinking since the gag occured in this forum it's only fair that I question it here.;)

The gag simply put off TomBola who felt his contribution would probably suffer the same fate. It may also be worth noting that posts not tolerated in this thread have been expressed in other threads with whiffs of blatant racism directed at certain individuals within what some would still like to call Rhodesia and far beyond.

While Simba's comments were simply an observation that he had the right to air, they were utterly dismissed and the chap was provoked by imitation of a 'language' to pass him off as 'uneducated in western ways' or uncivilised or high on weed or whatever (a stereotype that stinks of racism). Somebody who does not fit in the African Forum despite him being an African should be 'relegated' to the Spanish Forum. Wait a minute, he does not fit in there too, he might degrade it too. Mmhh... What to do? Probably he should cease participating in PPRuNe at all. I choose not to comment on the last post as I had no pleasure or disgust (if you choose) of reading it.

While this is an Aviation forum we must be wary of the fact that some aviators seem to be threatened by others' shade of view or skin if you like.
It's not easy to speak with people not reading your words, but simply reacting defensively when no attack has been made.
If I shout the loudest when someone is trying to put a point across I can choose not to HEAR. Lock myself in my fantasy world but once in a while step out to shout down those who question my belief of the world as I see it. It's a beautiful sight from the vantage point I occupy. Real smug. Huh!?:O
I say all this with the fear that this forum might be reduced to one shade of view and put off those whose contributions may be well meaning.:ok:
:suspect:

[AAL]

Why you guy's labouring this point, there are so many other interesting, colourful and amusing aspects of aviation in Africa to discuss.

Simple, MusaQ - get a life: if he doesnt like 43rd then it is as simple as going somwhere else that will meet his requirements!

Now lets focuss on all your other relevant and interesting flying aspects and experiences in the wonderful continent of ours - this guy already got tooo much airtime.

Lets think up and post some new interesting threads to focus on.

God bless Africa.

[4HolerPoler]

ugflyer's ban is over on 12 June Lex - then the two of you can keep pumping away at this thread. Or get a life & move on.

Understand this - this great majority of us aviation professionals couldn't give a fat rat's arse what color your skin is - we accept you as a professional. Now it's up to you to decide - are you going to continue weaning on about skin color or are you going to join the rest of us professional aviators & talk flying?

4HP

[Lex44]

Thanks for the clarification 4HP. Just looking out for a fellow aviator.
I dont intend for 'the two of us pumping at this thread'. I take great offence to that.
Come to think of it I've said most of what I needed to but some okes keep on driving me nuts with their senseless utterances and disrespect for others. Silence on such matters has not been a trait of mine. such rants are uncalled for.

I intend to post on happier terms and talk all flying and not English.

[Avvy]

4HP you took the words out of my mouth.cant believe this thread is still around. surely there must be something else to moan excessively at.

[AAL]

Hey Avvy,...or to share, describe or to compliment. Surely we dont just have to complain!

[oerlikon]

Hi there,

Just wanted to find out how the flying training is going (as one pilot to another). I'm sure you're doing well now and would love to see a positive post on how your career is progressing.

I know there will be a lot of continuing discussions (arguments) going on on this thread, but putting all that aside, are things going better for you now?

Oerlikon:ok:

[musaQ]

@AAL,
I am tired of having to set facts straight everytime.:mad::mad: Perhaps if you took time to read through the thread you would appreciate some facts. I had a life before 43 and still have a life past 43. 43 was both an initiation and a dent in my career path, unfortunate to have met some really mean people so early. I have moved on. And I wasnt looking for a school to suit 'my requirements' - your insinuation is sick. I know there's a base limit for all aviators and am glad to fly without 'the baggage'.
The thread is not about me and it doesnt help taking a swipe at me whenever you feel like it. It is as well not a personal attack and your defence of what you seem not to know about is puzzling. Have to admit I have learnt that race relations in southern Africa are complex. Wishing an issue away doesnt help though - others may be living the 'nightmare' that you so lightly dismiss. Maybe I would have done a search on other 43 threads and come up with similar conclusions but my silence would be detrimental to others - I digress.
If it helps I am not the first one to point out what is not right. Others before me have and are still doing so now. KQ is well aware of it too - there has been an instance that almost put all this to rest. Hope that helps soothe you ego.
Again, please read before throwing punches in the dark.:sad:

@Oerlikon,
Thank you for your concern, I am doing fine. Somehow, somewhere. I know it works for the best in the long run. There are lots of good people out here.:ok:
"For once you have tested flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return" - Leonardo Da Vinci.
Flying is fun and an attitude. Difficult for some to understand but hey, am not here to please all.
All the best.:ok:

MusaQ.

[ugflyer]

Very well put MusaQ, I wish you nothing but success from this point on. And just out of curiosity, where are you finishing up your training? Do you plan on getting on with KQ when you are done?

[Lex44]

Cheers ugflyer. Nothing like a long relaxing break.
Refreshing.

[musaQ]

@ugflyer,
On a break but finishing up in the end hopefully. Sure, KQ is every hot-blooded kenyan pilot's ambition. I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

High five. :ok:

[Jet4]

FACT: 43 AIRSCHOOL IS AN UNBELIEVABLY RACIST INSTITUTION.:ooh:

[Travelman Africa]

If you make a statement like "43 Air school is Racist Institution" Please be helpful and tell us why.