Netjets FA Abonndoned In Moscow

[barista]

Tell me is this good CRM?

I here that one of our FA arrive on a NJ aircraft in Moscow. It seems that she did not have a visa so can not leave the terminal. Imigration tells her she can not go to the hotel and must stay all night in the terminal. The pilots? They leave her alone and go off to they nice warm beds.

Is this good CRM? Leave a young woman alone in a place like taht all night? What kind of pilot would do this?

My own colleagues make me feel shame.

[Chilli Monster]

What were your crewing department doing allocating a FA to a flight without the appropriate visa, or ensuring this FA had one?

Poor support from the flight crew, she shouldn't have been abandoned. However - she shouldn't even have been there and the situation shouldn't have arisen.

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

Well it might not be very gentlemanly to leave her there, but what would the (accident) report say if one or both pilots spends all night in a presumably not-very-comfortable terminal, only to make a fatigue induced mistake the next day .... they owe a duty of care to the next day's pax (which includes the FA) as well as to her right now.

[south coast]

I have waited on board the plane at Moscow for 4 hours because the FA forgot to inform the Planning Dept. that she did not have a visa.
Most of the time we have some notice that we are going to Moscow, unless diverted in flight, which I cannot think is often, so if the company were informed before the flight to Moscow, they could have pre-arranged for a visa to be ready on arrival.

It is a tough one, but like the above poster said, if you have a minimum rest for an early show the next day with pax, you need your rest.

However, surely something could have been organised so that the FA didnt have to stay at the airport alone.

One definately needs their wits about them while in Moscow airspace.

[tempilot]

This happened some years ago in Jeddah. Fresh Cabin Attendant, as a result of a JABJ Dispatch screw-up, was sent to JED on a sister-ship to that which she was assigned. The captain and F/O of that aircraft abandoned her to the authorities because, allegedly, her papers were not in order, whereupon she spent a very tearful night at the immigration detention centre, along with a bunch of unhappy would-be nannies/servants.

I was appalled at my colleagues' actions. They abandoned her and went to their hotel!

Command does not cease on landing!

Tempilot.

[H.Finn]

Now, what good does it do for the poor FA if the pilots also stay on a couch at airport? I don't think it helps her/him at all. Better to think about the overall picture and have a good rest. Safety first. Good decision by the captain.:ok:

[His dudeness]

Hmmm, landed in Domodedovo once and Pax had no Visa, had to stay in the GAT on a couch with a blanket from the airplane.
Just wondering what the guy would have thought if I´d offered to stay with him :-)

Do you know wether the F/A asked the pilots to stay? If not, why should they?
Do have no real sleep, no breakfast, no nuthin? I surely would not expect (or ask) any of my crew to stay if my visa would not work... H.Finn got it right.

[doubleu-anker]

If that poor F/A was your wife or partner, would you still go to the hotel?

She is probably the wife or partner of someone.
If your wife or partner was employed by this company wouldn't you want her to be "protected" a little better than in this case, or would you abandon her in the interests of "safety"?

If the PIC in question was working for me I would have had him fired on the spot.

[jettgoddess]

Now, what good does it do for the poor FA if the pilots also stay on a couch at airport? I don't think it helps her/him at all. Better to think about the overall picture and have a good rest. Safety first. Good decision by the captain.
Today 02:36

Hope I never fly with you!!!! H.Finn............. Thanks Barista!!!!! Template Who need Pilots like H. Finn..............
Obviously not a teamplayer!!!! Maybe he prefers the males!!!! ooooppps:D

[H.Finn]

No I don't prefer the males. Would someone please tell me what exactly should she/he be "protected" from? It is probably safer at the airport than in a hotel in Moscow anyway.
Again, I would personally prefer to fly with a crew of two well rested pilots and a knackered FA, than a crew of three knackered persons. And yes, my wife is a grown up person who can take care of herself for one night. She would never consider asking me to stay with her in a situation like this.
We are talking about an FA staying in a terminal of an international airport, not a jail full of perverts...

[doubleu-anker]

If you had been to some airports in Africa for example, you would quickly change you view on this one let me assure you. Yes I have been to Mocow also.


jettgoddess I am well aware the appearance of some cabin crew can be frightening experience to many, however this does not alleviate the risk to a young women left on her own in a situation such as this.

Reminds me a little bit of the "Captain" of a cruise ship that was sinking near South Africa a few years ago. He elected to be on the 1st rescue helicopter off the ship, as in his words "...would be needed on dry land to co ordinate the rescue operation"!

[H.Finn]

I have been to several airports in Africa. However, never in Moscow, Africa.

Seriously, yes I agree, and I do understand exactly what you mean. But I have also been to all three airports in Moscow, and can't see a problem there. I believe that also the handling agents at any of the Moscow airports can provide some sort of security and support for the night.

It is quite easy to get a visa at a few hours notice in Moscow, just provide passport details in advance to the handler and the visa will be waiting for you on arrival. Obviously this was not done in this case and the arrival was after the closure of the visa office. Piss-poor planning by NetJets, but that is nothing new, I guess?

[barista]

Anyone who think that Moscow airport is a safe place is crazy. For a young woman alone too? Madness!! Would you want your girlfrien or wife, sister, daughter left like this? Moscow is a major crime city for God sake!

Yes, bad planning by the company. Dont blame the FA as crew are sent to the these places all the time without visa. The company is ment to get on the spot visa for them. Again our wonderful company drop the ball. A better example was set by other captains before. One told the company to file a plan somewhere else they could all sleep somewhere safe and flew his crew away. The other decided that the whole crew could sleep on the aircraft. Why not this time? We are talking about a luxury aircraft that is good enough for the rich to sleep on so why not.

I know first officers and FA who would call in sick before they fly with him. I hope I never have to work with him. To the FA I can only say sorry on behalf of your coleagues. None of us are happy with this.

[2604]

"We are talking about a luxury aircraft that is good enough for the rich to sleep on so why not."

Hey Barista, don't start giving bad ideas to Travel :E

[transilvana]

I´m based in Nokovo, until this week I did not a permanent visa to get into russia so I had to wait everyday a couple of hours to get the visa, but not big deal, things in russia take russian time, but for one day you can get a visa with no problem. At Nukovo there is no crew rooms, you have to stay at the aircraft until you get your visa

Now, the questions is how a big company as netjets can not handdle an easy issue as this one, no idea. Captain should have stayed with the crew until all the crew is released, captain work finish when all work is funished. Now is spring, what about winter -20º on the aircraft, who is going to take of the APU because you need one, they don´t let you to go into the terminal.

Bad crew department, these issues need to be programmed in advance

[Cessna560XL]

Hey guys,

I don't think that this matter should be discussed in a public forum. Don't get me wrong, it should be discussed, just not in here. Maybe **************** would be a better place, so that it stays within NJE...

Just my 50 cents.

Cheers!

[barista]

Bad management and crew should be kept a secret? Why?

[Treetopflyer]

Bad management and crew should be kept a secret? Why?

Read your contract

[H.Finn]

There is nothing in my contract that prohibits me discussing Netjets Transportes Aereos, the Portuguese fractional company, in a public forum. A few points: you don't just file a flight plan and fly away from Moscow to the nearest civilised place, which btw is Helsinki, about two block hours away. You need to get a permission to do that, and obviously this crew had arrived outside the working hours of the visa office, which means that they were there also outside the office hours of the permit issuers.

Possibly they also were out of duty hours, certainly the pilots would have been in the morning had they stayed at the airport holding the hand of the maiden in distress. Possibly had a flight to do in the morning, this was the only way to get the job done.

Moscow is a major crime city, so is London or Paris. But the transit area of any Moscow airport is not a major crime area. Not comfortable, but with some assistance from the handler should be relatively safe and quiet.

[sandokan]

If you go to UUEE/Sheremetyevo in that case it is sometimes possible to overnight at the Novotel without a visa,because the Hotel is directly at the airport.It all depends on the lenght of stay.
Otherwise VISA on arival could be arranged prior to arrival.
Rusaero does a good job with that.

Bst rgrds

[FlyMD]

I have been in that situation. Arrived in Krasnodar, Russia, with an FA whose 3-entry visa just expired because of a last-minute change of plans by the customer.

She was told that she needed stay at the airport crew-hotel (aka flea-pit), under guard, until such time as we would leave for Moscow, which was about 36 hours.

I elected to stay with her, in an adjacent room at the flea pit, while the rest of the crew went downtown to the nice hotel. At meal times, the 3 of us (FA, me and russian border guard) would be allowed 2 hours at the airport restaurant, before having to rejoin our rooms.

Not a nice experience. HOWEVER: Russian officials were firm but perfectly civil. We were EXTREMELY safe from any danger, even though terminally bored.

Encountering the same situation in Vnukovo, i would probably do exactly the same as that Netjets crew. First, insure with the Border Police and the Handling agent exactly where the FA would stay and how long, then go to our Hotel to get some sleep. Perfectly safe. Same as staying in London, Paris or New York.

All the finger-pointing drama-queens on this thread had better go over their own books first, asking themselves what exactly they are doing operating a business jet wolrdwide. Maybe their particular brand or whining is more suited to cattle-transportation... In the corporate world we operate with adults!

[doubleu-anker]

FlyMD

Who made you King??


You assume the NJE crew did this. To quote from you " i would probably do exactly the same as that Netjets crew. First, insure with the Border Police and the Handling agent exactly where the FA would stay and how long,.........................................". How do you know they did?


I see you are from Switzerland, so are you Swiss? If so, since when have the Swiss stood up for anyone apart for themselves, pray tell me. So don't patronize me.

[FlyMD]

doubleu-anker: obviously, the last sentence of my thread applies to you. It is my ongoing privilege to patronize people less fortunate in the brains department.

[Flintstone]

I'm curious as to why the FA was not allowed to go to the Novotel, it's been done before even without a visa.

As for leaving her, pretty poor show.

[Red Goose]

Flintstone,
As far as I know, the no-visa deal is only available at Sheremetyevo. Apparently, this story took place at Vnukovo, and if you get there after customs's hours without a visa, you are out of luck...
Regards,
Goose

[Flintstone]

Aaahh, for some reason I thought this was at Sheremetyevo.

How the hell can anyone be left like this? There are few facilities at Vnukovo even if it is a new terminal. Bet the atmosphere on board was less than pleasant for the rest of the tour.

[His dudeness]

"It is my ongoing privilege to patronize people less fortunate in the brains department."

Kinda like that sentence... good on ya, FlyMD:ok:

[doubleu-anker]

schermoney?

Another master race of Europe I presume. Now I didn't mention the war.

[pilotbear]

Well, what a bunch of thoughtless tossers some of you lot are.
I know Vnukovo airport well having flown in there a lot and on occasions waiting four or five hrs for visas to be sorted as the flights were last minute.

So it is OK to abandon the same person that you would expect to drag you out of a burning aeroplane. Probabaly crashed because the weight your ego exceeded W&B.

The crew are your crew and your responsibility, that is the law.
Why didn't the Captain check the paperwork before departure? Or was that someone elses responsibility also?:ugh:

[Flintstone]

:D

Well written Pilot Bear. I'd been castigating myself for not responding more forcefully but claim jet lag in my defence.

A crew is just that and I struggle to understand what kind of captain could make such a decision. Chivalry and common decency aside we can all cite textbook CRM cases where captains who have treated their crew badly have contributed to accidents and incidents.

"Drama"? I think not. Is this FA going to step in and warn the captain that he's about to do something stupid or at the very least embarassing in future or just let him get egg on his face? It's happened before.

Piss poor in my opinion.

[supergrass]

I have been reading this thread and it has made me so mad I have to stop ‘lurking’ and post my absolute disgust. I know many very good captains in Netjets who treat the cabin crew as an integral part of the team and would never, ever do such a thing as dump someone in the terminal for the night.
Some of the very astute members of this community state that the flight deck crew should leave the flight attendant so they could get their legal rest. Is it not true that the flight attendant also needs the same legal rest as the pilots under Netjets regulations?

If the flight deck crew HAD to go to the hotel to get the legal rest how could they operate with the flight attendant they abandoned? It was because they had well above minimum rest and the captain just showed a complete lack of judgement and CRM.

I overheard someone discussing this in the crew room in Nice yesterday and they mentioned a very well known and vocal member of Pprune who is a blinkered supporter of the company.

I will of course, not be pressured into divulging his name.

[doubleu-anker]

Well there you have it.


One gets fired for putting wine on the hotel bill, but this person is allowed to neglect his crew and get away with it.


Summing up then, obviously money is more important than the welfare of personal (safety) at this establishment.


There are crew members of certain backgrounds and from certain geographical areas, who simply cannot function without orders or a rule book. In my day there was a thing called iniative. Now it's all about CTA.


Seen the type in question over the years, as they come across as perfect on paper, answer for everything, never make mistakes of course, then an enormous screw up (won't admit it), then end up on their backs, legs up.


I REST MY CASE.

[His dudeness]

"Another master race of Europe I presume. Now I didn't mention the war."
Supposed to be funny? Basil Fawlty style? What does this sentence proof, apart from yours brain departments contents?
Get some help.
Facts Vnukowo: More Police, Border Patrols etcetc. than on any of her majesties airports. Diwan to sleep on. Have been there, did exactly that after our agent couldn´t get to UUEE to get a Visa in time. About 3 -4 years ago. Its not pleasant because its uncomfy and lighted and noisy all the time. BUT ITS NOT DANGEROUS.
If said FA was frightened and asked crew to stay, it might be a different story, but DO we now that? Or do we just all assume a gorgeous young, blond, tanned female kneeing in front of the EVIL HUN CAPTAIN, begging him not leave her behind?
As for Moscow beeing a major crime city, I have lived there for 3 months last year freelancing and NOTHING happend to me. Others that I know are there for years and had probs so far.
Was in Central African Republic (Bangui) the other day, and locals ("handling") wanted to separate our FA from us, since Hotel was overbooked - said no way, stayed with her, in the end we all got rooms. Bangui is a place where I don´t let any of my crew alone. (Nor would I like to be left alone there!)
But Moscow Vnukowo airport ? Get a grip!
The only valid point SO FAR is the legal rest requirement for the FA.

[supergrass]

'EVIL HUN CAPTAIN'

The Captain was not German, he was a Brit.

Dudeness, why take the chance to leave a female flight attendant in a country when she doesn't speak the language, all alone at night. And don't even start to say there are police and security guards about, that is no comfort.

Are we not taught to stick together as a crew when there was no legal reason for the cockpit crew to go to bed? As I said earlier they all operated legally the next day after the FA made it to the hotel for 11 hours.

Why not relax in the plane with the APU running and watch a movie, why take the extra risk of leaving a female crew member all night in the terminal?

This is just a case of bad CRM and judgement. I am amazed and ashamed that there are people who think this is acceptable, it is not.

[His dudeness]

"This is just a case of bad CRM and judgement. I am amazed and ashamed that there are people who think this is acceptable, it is not."
Point taken, BUT, I say, we just don´t know IF the FA not just said: Go to the hotel, I´m okay here. We don´t know what happened apart from the raw facts (and even that might not be true):
1) FA without Visa in UUWW, had to stay on airport.
2) Rest of crew went to hotel
Or have I over read something?
What amazes ME is what we are making out of it. And if it was bad CRM, why is not one of us mentioning the F/O, who is part of the crew, isn´t he/she? Did the captain made him go? By brute force? Did the evil fourstriper overrule him/her?
It might have been an unpleasant experience for the FA, but IMO we just don´t have enough information to judge. Do we know what the company said? IF our FA would tell me she is fine on her own, I´d go to the hotel.
And just by the way, I don´t get what the fact that this happend in NJE, or that the Cap is supposedly a NJE supporter in PPrune has to do with it. This kind of mistake happens EVERYWHERE, in any company.
It is always easy to blame - or to fire on the spot as one of the smartest posters suggested.
Just imagine: the crew went to the terminal and with help from the handling they sorted out a room with a bed and a blanket and she said: come on guys, you don´t have to stay, greet the hotel and get me a decent breakfast. See you"
That COULD have happened, couldn´t it?

[MSP Aviation]

Is it not true that the flight attendant also needs the same legal rest as the pilots under Netjets regulations?


As you said, it is not "legal rest," it is "Netjets regulations."

I think that EVERYBODY is jumping the gun. How de we know who the flight attendant was or what decision was come to? For all we know she was perfectly comfortable and told the crew, against their protests, to get a good night's rest.

[CL300]

Being in the company for a while, and knowing quite well the there abouts of "unfriendly journeys", I have a lot of doubts that if this event ever happened, it would have been a crew decision. Like most of the captains , NTA or else, one day or the other you will/had to face this "non-standard" situation. Resolutions of these conflicts can run from " Ferry to another place" to " all sleep in the aircraft". Our company ( NTA) is reactive enough in these situations that the scenario of letting down a FA in tears is highly unlikely ( read impossible). :)
Our FA are very well looked after, and NO captains would be miserable enough to do this. IF this event happened, on a unilateral decision from the PIC, this is wishfull misconduct and should be treated as such. :ouch:
On the other end , I'm VERY surprised to see a FA WITHOUT a russian visa in our company, they usually have all the visas to go everywhere. :D

Since all these thread are carefully monitored by Lisbon, I'm quite sure that if it goes 'over the top' a little e-mail would clarify the situation to all crews at NTA. I do not have the power/right/authorization to disclose ANY informations if ever I had any about this case; but I'm pretty certain that people who left the company and still have ties within, would be very keen to publish their investigations.. :\

[Smeagel]

Thanks CL300, I accept the invitation.

The situation was as described. The crew arrived, it was too late for the handling agent to organise a visa for the FA. The captain elected to leave her at the terminal against her wishes and despite the fact that she was visibly upset. I do not know what, if anything, the FO had to say about the situation but it was the captains decision.

Some members of the NJE safety commitee view this as a CRM issue and want to investigate but are being blocked. Oddly enough the captain concerned is a member of said committee.

[scambuster]

:eek: oh no.....it wasn't HIM again?

[thedeadseawasonlysick]

CL300.

It is not uncommon at all. I have frequently carried FA's with no visa. Provided the company has faxed the details to the FBO, it only takes about half an hour to get a temporary visa. The difficulty arises when they haven't. Legally the FA can only stay for three hours without a visa. After that, it becomes very much a question of who's in charge of immigration on that particular day.

Earlier this year, I arrived with not only an FA without a visa, but also both the passengers! We were supposed to transit, but could not leave until the passengers were sorted out. Netjets had not informed the pax that a visa was required! However, I have to wonder at the intelligence of a businessman who thought that Russia was visaless. Suffice it to say that Netjets were prepared to do anything rather than the obvious, which was to take the pax and the FA out of the country. At various times jail was a distinct possibility for all three. This did not seem to concern Netjets, only the possibility that we could not do the next sector! After about six hours of negotiations we finally departed for another country with the pax. We then of course found that we did not have enough hours left on the tour to do the trip anyway. Plus ca change. (Is that right?)

[Smeagel]

oh no.....it wasn't HIM again?

"Him" also known as 'The-captain-who-FO's-would-rather-call-in-sick-than-fly-with'?

"Him" who is conspicuous by his absence from this Netjets thread? (A most unusual occurrence for "Him").

If that's the "Him" to whom you are referring then, yes. It was Him again.

[Impressive_Wingspan]

Oh dear! Hello Smeagel you big Tosser, walking funny is she?:D

[CL300]

thedeadseawasonlysick CL300.

It is not uncommon at all. I have frequently carried FA's with no visa. Provided the company has faxed the details to the FBO, it only takes about half an hour to get a temporary visa. The difficulty arises when they haven't. Legally the FA can only stay for three hours without a visa. After that, it becomes very much a question of who's in charge of immigration on that particular day.

Earlier this year, I arrived with not only an FA without a visa, but also both the passengers! We were supposed to transit, but could not leave until the passengers were sorted out. Netjets had not informed the pax that a visa was required! However, I have to wonder at the intelligence of a businessman who thought that Russia was visaless. Suffice it to say that Netjets were prepared to do anything rather than the obvious, which was to take the pax and the FA out of the country. At various times jail was a distinct possibility for all three. This did not seem to concern Netjets, only the possibility that we could not do the next sector! After about six hours of negotiations we finally departed for another country with the pax. We then of course found that we did not have enough hours left on the tour to do the trip anyway. Plus ca change. (Is that right?)


I was in the 125 at Netjets now on the DA2EASy, I think like all of us at NTA, I had (and still have) my share of CIS flying and beyond. You are describing how to fix the problem, my position is : how to prevent this from happening?

Like I said above the company has outstanding dedication for crews, proof is that in your case you DID fly out; whatever the cost (may be revenue flight a factor).

I will continue the discussion in the private forum, for the in and outs; I know, some voice will raise and shout : what do you have to hide and such..BUT I signed a confidential agreement when I joigned and I will never go a way to breach this one. :ok:

On our forum it is said that this event occured in december, why BARRISTA is bringing this one on the table in April? Shtstiring ?

There is mishaps in ANY company, why would one stigmatize a single event ? after 4 months ? :mad: