Flexjet Europe

[Daifly]

Understand that the CL604's are going back to the States?

What's happening to Flexjet Europe? It may just be a bad timed tech prob, but the website's down too (www.flexjeteurope.com).

Any info appreciated - thanks.

[chinny]

:eek:
Didnt think fj had CL604s?

[TheDrop]

Apparently the 601 is being replaced by a 604.

TD

[chinny]

:p
TD.Really where did u hear that-nice a/c!

Daifly-They might b just updating their site. :confused:

[Daifly]

Yeah, the site may be technical.

It's just I read two CV's on Friday which both said that the Challengers (I assumed 604's - sorry) were going back to the States.

Maybe it's just space filling on CV's?

[Loc-out]

Would not have thought the CL fleet would be done away with, as the CL’s (albeit 601) were going to be the "be all to end all" at FLE. The crews are even paid, I believe, £s 20,000 more per year than the Lear crews. What would become of them?

[Stan Woolley]

There was never more than one Challenger, a 601

manage :cope successfully with a task; succeed in doing or producing; succeed in dealing with.

Pathetic :rolleyes:

[Will Rogers]

Well, for what is't worth...the webpage is back up!!!

Will

[TheDrop]

Daifly, I think I get it now.

You have received CV's from flexjet CL pilots, right ?

[GLX]

FJE has a 601 not a 604 and the pilots are all looking for jobs

[Daifly]

The Drop - I too get what you mean. But no, I was looking at people who work with their handling agents... I don't think that's narrowed it down too much to any area.

- Edited because I meant to say, the CV's didn't directly state that - they intimated it. I made it fact - apologies for poetic licence... RUMOUR my boy, RUMOUR...

Flanker - sorry, was the "manage" comment aimed at me, or am I being paranoid!?

[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Daifly ]

[Stan Woolley]

Daifly

Relax,it was a bit too obscure I know but I was basically saying if it was a footie match I reckon the score looks like:

Netjets 10 Flexjet 0

I understand its into the ninety-first minute.

Will there be a replay?

[LGW Vulture]

Guess you chaps are in the know, then.

How much in the know are you? Why is Flexjet failing / about to fail. Market presence / penetration or simply Net Jets first to market and the demand is not sufficient to support two fractionals in Europe. Let me know.

Its a damn shame that Europe can't grasp the US bizjet culture.

[chinny]

:p Flanker, I think you give Net jets too much credit!!!!!

[Daifly]

Flanker Yup, paranoia then!

LGW Vulture In the know? Us?! Individualy we all think we are, but then collectively we all convince each other we're not!

However, having spent the last three years studying fractional ownership v. charter closely (know your enemy!) I don't honestly know that fractional ownership is failing in Europe, I just think that it's being compared with the American market all the time, which is not a very fair comparison.

Aircraft ownership, particularly business ownership, is very high in the States, as is business aircraft charter. Neither of these are particularly big within Europe - go and look at the aircraft at Signature Luton for example; the majority of the big stuff is US registered. Until this culture can be changed then the market in Europe is never going to be on a percentage par with the States.

Without a doubt NetJets have had an effect on the market that is here though. As an operator we have seen a reduction in the number of American clients on intra-European flights (and an increase in the number of "CS-DXX's" flying around Europe!).

Having looked closely at it you come up with a number of places where fractional falls down on the typical charters that are flown in Europe. However, I don't think it would be of benefit to anyone to list them here - except NetJets and they probably know it already!

I would agree that FlexJet has lost out to NetJets though through being the second American fractional to come over here, it's like any famous product "Hoover" and "Coke" for example. When I talk of fractionals, I tend to use "NetJets" .

So, I don't think it's a case of market presence or penetration. I think the fractional market has been found in Europe and it's just the case that the market is smaller than they'd envisaged.

It is a damn shame that Europe doesn't grasp the US Bizjet culture, but at the same time, being selfish, it's not too much of a shame that they don't grasp the fractional culture!

(Edited for dimwitted spelling...)

[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: Daifly ]

[4HolerPoler]

Great post - nice to see someone living the dream. You've obviously been around Daifly. :)

[Daifly]

"You've obviously been around Daifly." - that made me laugh!

I don't know if those who know me would agree that I've been around, but I've certainly been lucky enough to work with some great companies that have allowed me to work in a fantastic industry.

Although Pprune can just end up as a bunfight, and recently I seem to have been right in there with a great big custard pie, there are times when I think the information that flows is some of the best around. Perhaps relative anonymity helps people be honest...?

[TheDrop]

I believe Flexjet and Netjets are both pouring money into their businesses in Europe - but who will pour the most ? They do not have exactly the same interests, as one is (founded by) an aircraft manufacturer, the other by ... a soft drink company ?

[Stan Woolley]

The soft drink company appears to be better at it.

What are the respective fleet sizes now? I honestly don't know.

[chinny]

Silverhawk....... :confused: :confused: any ideas?

[falcndriver2001]

i don't think silverhawk has replied to anyone for several days....
see the "been there done that never again" section about netjets ! :confused:

[GLX]

Flexjet Europe have 4xLear 31, 3xLear 60 and 1xCL601. Netjets fleet is much bigger, they're pouring loadzamoney into their operation and I suspect they'll be by far the largest fractional in Europe in the very near future!

[chinny]

:eek:Well I think the final score in this relagation match is;=Netjets 75,Flexjet 58.A late come back but it looks the "soft drinks" have it.Sorry Flexjet ---you are the weekest link, "good Bye"

[TheDrop]

The latest roumour says that FlexJet (Europe only) is shutting down within 6 months ... at least in its current state ...

[chinny]

:eek: :rolleyes: I've heard that the whole lot is on the way out---a lot sooner.Any clarification anyone?

[TheDrop]

Yes, Netjets won the European battle - for now ... Bombardier is going back to their core business, buidling and selling aircraft - at least for Europe.

I dont think Flexjet US is affected.

"Within 6 months" means less than 6 months ... that explains the CVs !

[LAVDUMPER]

I have a few friends at Flexjet USA and they are very concerned for their jobs right now - most have applications out with a number of defections to Netjets and Citationshares - and a few airline wannabes (waiting for market correction).

One who currently captains a Lear 60 hopes to get on with Avolar (new United sub) and fly a GIV for them... Another friend has been a Lear 60 FO for almost 2 years - upgrade time is very slow and morale is down as a result...

Flexjet's reputation in the US has dropped among both passengers (I have heard that directly) and its own pilots - morale has SUNK.... Netjets is still expanding and prospects have never looked better with new BBJs, Citation Soveriegns and maybe as many as 100 funky-looking Galaxys on the way.............

Cheers

[LGW Vulture]

I fear that its not only Flexjet that is suffering, maybe some of Bombardier's product line has also seen better days.

Whispers way back earlier this year suggested they were placing Lear 60's on P.B.T.H. agreements with certain operators to avoid them being parked for long periods.

Anyone wish to confirm / deny / shoot me down in flames???

[Loc-out]

Heard through the grapevine, that FJE are closing down next year. :(

[Will Rogers]

L.O. - I heard you're right. What's up with that?? Thought Bombardier was going to back them for quite some time!?

On the other hand...

...I also heard today that they had people for interviews and sim-rides in London only three weeks ago!? This was for flying the Challenger 604 which I was also told today that they are going to "buy" two of???? Aircraft is, I was told, going to operate out of London and be pretty much self sustained (crew does it all I guess).

What is going on exactly? Anybody?

Will

[GLX]

FJE are not getting any 604s; the candidates from the sim rides are still out of a job and the London idea is dead.

The company is going to give up running it's own aircraft in the fractional programme. Some are down in december and the rest will be out by the end of april.

Lots of pilots will be hitting the market with their CVs very soon.

Shame it is all coming to such an untimely end!

[PsychoDad]

Friend of mine who works for Flexjet operations in CPH has told me that he received notice yesterday (28NOV01) that the company was going to suspend operations and all staff was put on notice. Now whether this also goes for Flexjet in London I have no idea, and for the same reason do not know whether they will close down completely in Europe.

[chinny]

:o The word is that Fj ops is closing immediately with half the a/c up for sale.Crews are grounded effective immediately.The remaining 4 a/c will remain in ops until end April when they along with the remaining crews will grounded.As of end of April there will be no "Flexjet" in any form.Sales and marketing will continue for Bombardier in London. :mad: :eek: :confused:

[LAVDUMPER]

Danishpilot and Lear35pilot,

Major sympathies extended to both of you. Reading your posts upset me considerably - obviously not a good time to be looking for pilot positions.

Fortunately, you both have experience on high-performance jets - and that should make you more marketable... Good luck with your searches and keep us updated on your progress - I'd like to know what positions you ultimately find. Stay strong and FOCUS on the long-term!


Cheers

[jimbob]

Indeed some very bad news....

Lear35 - I belive that there is a Citation operator at ESMS, maight be an idea to give them a ring.....

Good luck to all of you

[jimbob]

And by the way Lear35 - did you by any chance used to fly in the US???? Oklahoma area????? :p :D :D

[Lear35pilot]

Jimbob!

Thanks and yes! :)

Drop me a mail sometime!

LJ

[Daifly]

At the beginning of the thread, I said that I thought the CL601 was going back to the States. I have to admit that closing FJE completely wasn't something I had though would happen.

I am really sorry for everyone out there who has now joined the job hunting list. I hope you get something soon - the bizjet market is steady, there are a few vacancies out there occasionally, so I hope some of you will be back flying soon.

Although I said that I wasn't too fussed about more work for the fractionals (insofar as it would come from my, the charter, side of the business) but I am saddened that NetJets becomes, effectively, a monopoly. Although I can't see it leading to a massive price increase, it doesn't help the people who are set on buying a fractional share.

What this does make me wonder, on top of all the other redundancies throughout the industry, is if the market would have collapsed of its own volition, without the US tragedies, eventually? It seems that there was such spare capacity out in the market that it was no wonder that BA, VS etc were so eager to cut back on their services so quickly. Difficult one, I think it's almost worthy of its own topic.

Good luck to all the FJE staff in finding something soon.

[StressFree]

Daifly,
Good point...........
I would love to know the exact state of the market prior to Sept.11. It does seem that there was huge over capacity and those terrible events provided a catalyst to thin out the industry.

I'm surprised that NJE are now the only player in Europe - my company looked at a share to cover some additional requirements but found it too expensive and far too inflexible. We've had to carry on with our existing kit.
To those laid off by Flexjet - big sympathy, in this business its happened to me twice, hang in there things can only improve.

:(

[Will Rogers]

My "information" says that FJE will still be selling fractional shares and "block" charter to be flown by partner "airlines"/companies (I guess other operators using Bombardier products!?)

A belive they will be "operating" out of London.

If this is true then I guess Netjets won't get the entire market for themself...

Any comments? Is this the case?

Ya'll be safe and good luck to ya'!

Will

[GLX]

FJE will still be in the fractional programme - but without their own aircraft. Consequently they will be using "partners" with Bombardier products and the operation should be controlled from their London office.

Netjets will not have a monopoly but they should get a sound share providing they don't hike their prices.

I suspect that FJE will begin to lose their client base - some fractional providers do appear to be somewhat expensive! If they do lose their client base then maybe the charter operators will find a need for a few more aircraft and crews - that might give some of the FJE pilots a lookin in a depressed market - I hope so.

[LGW Vulture]

This weeks Flight International job classifieds provide an insight into what Flexjet are up to.

[chinny]

:o Kare try www.flightinternational.com (http://www.flightinternational.com)

[chinny]

:confused: :confused: :mad: :eek: Easy Victor-well said.
:( :mad: :eek: :confused: All These Emotions.

[Enter after the Virgin]

Easy Victor

Are you still there ? is it really as bad as you say, so why are they taking people on in positions you are currently seeing throrgh till April. are yo unot up to it or do they want cheaper labour ?

<img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[TheDrop]

What do you mean by "taking people on" ?

?????

[MissChief]

What this poor dyslexic persom means is "They are not taking people on"...don't rise to this bait, Drop. And better luck outside of FJE...reckon they were a bit hasty to change like that, and maybe will live to regret it.