Avidyne Entigra or Garmin G1000....which is better

[nomorecatering]

Would love to hear from anyone who has flown with both. Cessna, Beech, Mooney, Columbia have all gone the Garmin route, while Cirrus has stayed with the Avidyne setup.

How does the Avidyne Entegra compare with the G1000.

Has Cirrus made a mistage by not going to the Garmin 1000. is garmin in danger of being run out of the business. have heared of talk of a generation 2 Entigra integrated cockpit to match the G1000 comming out soon but no sign of it yet.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Haven't flown with either, but

Hoover = vacuum cleaner
VHS = video tape format
Garmin = GPS

I just love my Garmin GPSMap296 and GNS430 !

Lokking forward to having a go at a G1000.

Dr:cool:

[Rich-Fine-Green]

NMC:

Found This while looking into the Cirrus. Looks like Cirrus Jumped on the right horse when it comes to ease of use and Pilot situational awareness.

Cessna, Beech, Mooney and Columbia's decision to select the G1000 may have had more to do with $$ incentives rather than which is actually the better system for their customer - The Pilot.
----------------------------------------------------------
AVIDYNE ENTEGRA TOPS GARMIN G1000
IN INDEPENDENT HEAD-TO-HEAD COMPARISON

The Aviation Consumer Magazine Calls Entegra “Our Top Pick”
Citing Ease-of-Use, More Mature Software

LINCOLN, Mass . – March 23, 2006 -- Avidyne Corporation announced today that The Aviation Consumer magazine, in an independent, in-depth comparison with the Garmin G1000, chose the Avidyne Entegra integrated flight deck as its “top pick” because of its ease-of-use, intuitive and logically arranged displays and more mature software that integrates well with other avionics.

“A glass cockpit is all about real-time, everyday operability, not a miles-deep feature set that you may never use. In that regard, when it comes to flying from here to there under the guidance of glass, the Entegra is simply easier to use,” the review stated in the March 2006 issue. “But if you’re flying a piston single after a long day at your real job, that simplicity can make a world of difference in comfort and confidence.”

“Given the complexity of the G1000, we think it’s more likely to give a rusty pilot heartburn than the Entegra will,” the review stated.

The review said Avidyne’s “mature software yields excellent integration with other avionics, including traffic, XM weather and radar.” It also said the Entegra’s primary flight display (PFD) and multifunction display (MFD) “are more logically customizable with elements grouped in ways we found appealing.”

The review cited advantages of key Entegra features including:

An altitude bug selectable to within 10 feet vs. 100 feet in the G1000 for accurate altitude capture on climbs, descents and on instrument approaches;

Simpler and familiar operation of navcom radios;

Logical grouping of winds aloft, temperature and wind vector data near the HSI for prompt wind corrections;

Intuitive display of engine data near the PFD’s airspeed readout for precise power-pitch adjustments;

An additional CDI display at the bottom of the attitude indicator for a tighter instrument scan on final approach, and;

Graphical METARs, AIRMETs and other weather display on the main map page for quick assessment of current conditions.

[Dick Smith]

I fear that the Aviation Consumer article of 23 March 2006 is a bit like the articles I read claiming that Betamax tape players were the way to go rather than VHS. The articles I read in the early video tape boom claimed that Betamax/Betamovie was the way to go – rather than VHS. In fact, in many ways the Sony Beta system was better, but as we all know it didn’t get the numbers so it faded out of existence. I still have an old Beta player which I can use for some of the tapes I recorded more than a decade ago.

I have used both Avidyne Entegra and Garmin 1000 systems. Yes, the Avidyne Entegra may be slightly easier to use, but this is mainly because it has fewer features. Having said that, the Garmin 1000 is fantastic. As we now know it is the equipment being included with the Cessna Citation Mustang.

It is interesting that Eclipse appeared to have failed with Avidyne and are now selling their aircraft with a hand-held Garmin!

I would imagine at the moment that the sales of the Garmin 1000 compared to the Avidyne Entegra would be about 10:1 in favour of the Garmin G1000.

I’ve just been informed that the new Cessna Caravans will come out with G1000 equipment, and we all know that Cessna is using G1000 equipment in the C172/C182 range.

Anyone who has used the Garmin G1000 will agree that it is unbelievably fantastic. It is almost impossible to believe that software designers (who are obviously flyers) can come up with such an incredible system.

Yes, you do have to understand that Garmin has a few peculiarities. For example, in many cases if you want to go direct to a waypoint on the flight plan, it is easier not to push the “DIRECT TO” button first, but to push the flight plan button, then highlight the field you want to go to, then push “DIRECT TO”, “ENTER”, “ENTER”. This is different to the protocol used by Universal, Collins and Avidyne, however once you are used to it, it becomes second nature.

Personally, I wouldn’t go for anything other than the Garmin G1000 at the present time. Maybe in the future something better will come along, but then I believe it will be made to be compatible with the Garmin protocol software.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

DS:

The Eclipse issue with Avidyne was a question I asked.....

Avidyne were evidently suppliers of components and not the completed Entegra Systems as in the Cirrus, Piper and Adam (and most pre-2007 Columbias).

It is interesting that Eclipse are delivering their Jets as VFR only right now!. I guess that explains the hand-held Garmin.

It is also interesting that Eclipse parted ways with Avidyne but did not choose the Garmin G1000 or choose Garmin to supply anything other than transponders!.

I'm not knocking Garmin as I retro'd 430s in my other aircraft and love it. In addition, Garmin does have good support which is important to me.

However, I too have used both the Avidyne and the G1000 and my individual tastes lean towards a large clear display, EASE of operation and situational awareness - that is why I will eventually go Avidyne (and Cirrus).

[Dick Smith]

RFG, if you go with Avidyne in the Cirrus, do you have to go with the Garmin GPS and Garmin communications, or can you actually go with other equipment? It seems to me that if you have to mix the equipment that you may as well go Garmin in the first place. What do you think?

[Rich-Fine-Green]

DS:

The Cirrus set-up works for me;

I love the 430's and when I used the Avidyne/Garmin integration I found it to be more user friendly than the G1000.

I didn't ask Cirrus the question as I don't need to as I like to set-up as is. But as you asked - I will email Cirrus for an answer.

[Squawk7700]

I didn't think Cirrus offered any alternative as an option... but I await your info.

It's disappointing with the Cirrus Garmin Avidyne combo you can't scroll on ahead to your intended destination and zoom in for more detail. Seems this expensive IFR gear lacks many of the features of my trusty Garmin 296 Hand-Held. No doubt it's due to the time and money it takes to get the software TSO'ed for IFR use.

I sit here waiting for the technology to catch up and the price to go down so I can buy the all in one for legal experimental NVFR. Right now the most affordable option is a reco'ed GNS430 or similar with terrain alterts hooked up to the Avidyne. It's a pity with all the mixing and matching.

[Dick Smith]

Also look at the thread which has come up under “similar threads” here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=273102).

It is interesting to note the claim that Cirrus has an investment in Avidyne. That may explain everything.

By the way, most importantly the Garmin now comes with an excellent flight director and Garmin autopilot. Does the Avidyne have a fully coupled flight director?

[SR22/G]

Dick, I have used both but have way more time on the Avidyne. Mine has a FD. I found the G1000 to have a few more features and it did have the cool factor of the remote entry pad (I think this is only on a Columbia - and I think its probably more of a gimick). The ability to switch PFD and MFD was good too. The Garmin wasn't as intuitive and seemed smaller. I have been using 430's for years so using the Avidyne with the 430s for me wasn't an issue. The net for me is I think they both produce good product. Garmin probably has more R&D dollars available for future enhancements but Avidyne seem to be growing and investing.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

DS:

I have an answer from Cirrus:

The Avidyne/Garmin combo is here to stay. The G1000 is not going to be offered as an option in the forseeable future.

However, Cirrus does look at Garmin, Honeywell, L3, Chelton and others on a regular basis as these companies pitch their wares to Cirrus on a regular basis.

In fact, Cirrus told me that Garmin owns an SR22 GTS as their G1000 testbed!. Garmin pitched that setup to Cirrus and right now - Cirrus will continue to stick with the Avidyne and Garmin intergration.

It was pointed out to me by a Cirrus 'Classic' owner that if Garmin were smart - they would STC the G1000 to fit into the older Cirrus 'Classic' - that could help push their case with Cirrus Design.

Right now, I am more than satisfied with the current setup on the Cirrus.

[Peter Fanelli]

Garmin does have a nifty product for retrofit in older panels, it's the G600.
Two 6.5 inch displays mounted vertically side by side and the whole thing fits in place of the standard six flight instruments and works with existing
430 and 530 GPS's

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=153&pID=6427#

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"Garmin does have a nifty product for retrofit in older panels, it's the G600"

I want one!

http://www.fototime.com/18FC0DD9112A144/standard.jpg

Now ....... I am sure I can find a spare US$30k lying around here somewhere!

Dr:cool:

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Looks good for older types.

Couldn't find an STC list on the Garmin site. I have a couple of older types on-line that could do with a G600 type instal.

[Peter Fanelli]

OK, the G600 might be nice and all that but here is something that is actually affordable, takes up little space and interfaces with older NAV radios and autopilots.

http://www.aspenavionics.com/index.php/products/evolution/

They're suggesting a price of US$6k and around another 2k for installation here in the states. Sounds like a bargain to me and it might still be a bargain landed in Australia.

Wotcha think?

[Wheeler]

Does anyone have experience of the differences in reliability/maintenance cost? I've heard a couple of horror stories when the red crosses come up on the Cirrus display.

[Ovation]

I have a 2005 Mooney Ovation and have about 100 plus hours time on the G1000 system. It’s a learning curve as you transition from steam driven gauges, but it becomes second nature after 30-40 hrs.

One thing you really need to think hard and long about is how would you handle a total system failure (MFD + PFD) in IMC. It has redundancy built in, but should both screens go blank you have electric A/H, altimeter, airspeed and compass to find your way home with NO navigation information. I think the A/P reverts to a wing leveler on loss of navigation input (must check that).

I have a Garmin 296 to supplement the standby instruments and navigate in an emergency situation, and simply wouldn’t leave home without it.
I saw the dreaded red crosses when the AHRS failed (on the ground), and it took about 35 days going backwards and forwards before it was repaired/replaced. Garmin seemed reluctant to send the replacement AHRS from Singapore and we had to rattle their cage to get it. If your aircraft was in revenue operation you would not be happy.

I’m told the G1000 software still has bugs, as it took at least 3 different software uploads in the replacement AHRS before it would function (luckily it was still in warranty). Garmin also replaced both PFD and MFD in Feb 2006 due to delaminating of the display, but I think there was a bad batch and it’s not ongoing.

Garmin need to improve their customer service through better product training for their agents in AU. They didn’t carry exchange modules in stock in Australia, but they did in Singapore. There are a lot more G1000 panels in AU - in Adelaide there is a Cessna single and the college have a half dozen DA42 twins, so I think that situation will improve.

VERDICT: Great System, Questionable Redundancy, Inadequate Parts Inventory in AU, Insufficient Product Knowledge/Experience (in AU).

IMHO they took it to the market with insufficient development/trialing, without properly training their service agents to support it, and customers are paying the price in extended downtime.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I have had a "play" with the G1000 in a C182. Undoubtedly a spectacular bit of kit, and fairly intuitive to use for someone with GPSMap296 / GNS430 experience.

I love "toys" as much as the next bloke, BUT I think the G1000 is huge over kill in a lightie, and I would be very nervous owning a G1000 equipped aeroplane that was out of warranty.

Ovation's expereince supports that.

What's the cost of replacing an MFD that is kaput?

Dr :cool:

[Wheeler]

Ovation's story is fairly typical of what Ive heaerd and not much better in Europe. Downtime would be a real PITA on your new $500000 wonder machine but I've also heard about $30K + for a replacement display out of warranty - is that right???

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Not sure about Garmin but when I asked the question - I was told Avidyne has a fixed price repair for around US$1000 plus freight.
Avidyne also have an out-of-warranty annual support option that covers any repairs during a 12 month period. Again, plus freight.
Avidyne also have an Exchange program via the Cirrus dealer in Brisbane but only for units in warranty.

[strim]

Operating 5 C172's with G1000.

First of all - great system. However, I totally agree with previous posts in that after sales support from Garmin and Cessna is poor.

We haven't discovered any 'bugs' in the system, from a software perspective, moreso intermittent sensors and autopilot malfunctions (seem to coincide with wet conditions).

The biggest problem we face in Adelaide is T....x Aviation, the certified Garmin agent, who have no interest in fixing our problems because it is all Warranty work, and they know very little about the complexities of the system and its integration. A common misconception is that parts are interchangable between A/C, when this apparantly is not the case due to software versions (serial no. specific) being incompatible. As a result, we have had much downtime for our brand new A/C and of course lost revenue.

Our biggest loss of income however, resulted from an engine failure in one of the BRAND NEW A/C, which quit on base. The engine was restarted when ICO selected (PM me if you want a rundown), and a safe landing was made. The ensuing investigation took 3 weeks with minimal assistance from either aircraft or engine manufacturer. It seems Cessna will not admit to a fairly serious design flaw in their FCU's. But this is a thread drift and an entirely different story.

In conclusion - G1000 is an excellent system and brilliant in IFR, but will be even better in 2 or 3 years when the local aerodrome sparky knows how to fix them, and all the bits work properly all the time. It will also be great when all the functions can be utilised, e.g. Wx data link, traffic data link and XM Sat Radio.

but should both screens go blank you have electric A/H, altimeter, airspeed and compass to find your way home with NO navigation information. I think the A/P reverts to a wing leveler on loss of navigation input (must check that).

You're right. The AP will level the wings when it loses NAV input. The Stby A/H is standard Vac type. And yes, a dual screen failure in IMC would be interesting to say the least. And I've heard around 10K for a screen.

[Ovation]

Strim,

I feel the problem is Garmin more than Tenix for the disappointing experience you and I have both encountered. Garmin need to bring their field agents up to speed and keep parts in Australia, which would be to the benefit of all. If there was no Tenix, where else in Adelaide could you go?

Are you sure about the AP reverting to wing leveler in the event of dual G1000 failure? I pulled both PFD and MFD C/B’s on the ground and the (STEC) AP would not engage in any mode.

Accepted that the possibility is remote, I would consider total G1000 failure in IMC as a life-threatening situation because you have all your eggs in the one basket.

A decent independent standby navigation device (like a Garmin 296) should be mandated for any aircraft operating in IMC, even if it’s not approved for IFR.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Ovation

"I would consider total G1000 failure in IMC as a life-threatening situation because you have all your eggs in the one basket"

Why?

My understanding is that you still have standby ASI, AH, Alt and compass (from the picture on the Mooney website).

I am not having a go at you, but it seems to me that a total G1000 failure in IMC is similar to a total electrical failure in a more conventionally instrumented aircraft.

Regards of G1000 or not, you should still think long and hard about equipment failures and carrry appropriate redundancies.

In the senario above you should be able to stay upright and still have lots of (well, a few) options.

1) descend into VMC if it can be done safely.
2) ring ATC on your mobile and find out if there is somewhere within range that will allow a descent to VMC and navigate there by DR.

Would certainly get the heart rate up for a while until you got to VMC, but not necessarily life threatening.

That said, I always carry multiple redundancy in the V35 (apart from the powerplant).

Flight instruments - Vacuum AH, electric AH, electric T&B
Nav gear - Garmin GNS430 GPS with VOR/ILS, ADF, Garmin GPSNav296 on the yoke connected to a Motion Computing Tablet running Jeppesen FlightDeck moving map and electronic flightbag, ICOM handheld with VOR, Garmin III Pilot GPS in the glovebox.
Com gear - VHF 1 in the GNS430, King VHF 2, ICOM handheld VHF, CDMA Mobile phone, Sat phone

I would be carrying similar redundancy if I had G1000.

Dr:cool:

[Wheeler]

Maybe not immediately lifethreatening but might give you a bit of a turn even so!- You would lose a lot of stuff. You no longer have the 'luxury' of separate vac, static and electrical instruments - just a couple of stby instruments. When/if you do get back on the ground, you have the dubious pleasure downtime and expense of getting the damn thing fixed. Makes you wonder why it would not be better to have just a Sandel EHSI. It might not look quite so spaceage but at least you still have a lot of other stuff left if it goes wrong and its relatively easy and cheap to replace - and there is not much those things cannot do. Much more appropriate in light single?

[flypy]

I've flown Garmin G1000 equipped C172/C182, including a 40hr trip across the country and really, for touring purposes, it cant be bettered. In combine with the standard issue KAP140 (which isnt brilliant, but hey, its a 1ton S/E) you can let the plane do heaps of work.
Plus, once you've worked out how to use the MFD (which doesn't take that long once you've got used to the interface), you can have flightplans locked in very quickly. 3 mates and I took 2 (then brand new) G1000 172s to Perth via YAYE and back along the south coast just over a year ago, and all the flightplans for the entire trip were entered and stored in about 15 minutes.
As for failures, well, we didnt have any... But you've still got a compass! I think saying that it would be a "life-threatening" situation is perhaps being a little bit sensationalist.