biz jet type rating

[dfspilot]

i am a low hour ( 290 ) frozen atpl (age 42 ) and was wondering what are my options in regards to the following
1 which type rating would be the best to get, with employment opportunities at the end of it.
2 where can you do the type ratng in question 1.
3 i know netjets want 1500tt, but are there others that would take a low hour with type rating.
4 what are the pitfalls i should look out for if any if going this route. any help or replies greatly appreciated.

[Pull Up Whoop Whoop]

DFS Pilot, I did a TR on a Cessna 550 Bravo last year 260hrs TT, this rating will allow you to fly the 500 / 550 / 560 series citations with basic differences training, it is supposed to be one of the most diverse ratings you can get. Lots of UK operators use these birds so getting a job shouldnt be too difficult (he says :) ) Flightsafety are superb for the rating, cheap too in US at mo with exchange rate.

PM me if you want anymore help

[B200Drvr]

HS 125 type also covers the whole series, $15 200 at Simcom, go through all the motions and end up with a FAA CPL for good measure. One word of advice, do the rating at PIC level, do not do a 2IC/ Co-pilot rating, you might find yourself doing the same thing again in a few years.

[unablereqnavperf]

Don't buy a type rating is the best advice! Any job worth having will give you the type rating required. You just have to be patient and persistant. All decent companies employ the person rather than the type rating for ab initio pilots. A type rating with significant experience(500-1000hrs) is a differant story alltogether. From my experience companies that want you to pay your own type rating are under financed and don't last very long!

[dfspilot]

sorry should have said i am not looking for replies from the dont buy a type rating brigade ( as this has been covered elsewhere till the cows come home) who already have their creers sorted.

[LRdriver II]

Waste of money for you to buy a TR...
sermon over/
Get a typerating of which there are alot of airplanes flying around and start small.... you have very low total time so dont expect going straight into something larger than Citations. Not saying it wont happen but... a company running CJs or Citations will most likely take you as they can have you with almost no training costs as an FO. You will also be ready to go NOW.. not in a month whilst you train.
Benefit is that since you have paid yourself, you can just up sticks and leave without being held by a training bond.
ANother thing, if you decide to go corporate, you wont be building hours very quickly, so will wait a loooong time before upgrading to the left seat. So my suggestion would be to pursue other options at the same..ie flight instructing to build hours in quantity.. and bulk up the logbook. Maybe start intruducing yourself around operators of your chosen type as a freelance copilot with a view to a full time postion later maybe. Also you have age on your side.. maturity counts towards moving to a captain postion sooner rather than later.
Why not go airline.. the Lowcosts dont really care about age as you are paying for rating anyway, and the assessment centers only check your bank-balance anyway to see if you can pay.
Anyway.. best of luck and again, dont buy a rating as it be will the wrong one anyway for the job offered .

[dfspilot]

thank you all for your replies and keep them coming. to the following
1 if you did do as whoop whoop pull up says and went for a cessna bravo type rating done with flightsafety in USA, is this an faa rating and what do you have to do to convert it to jaa.
2 is there base checks involved in this type of rating and where are these done
3 lpc/opc checks are they like with the majors/ locos
4 any names of biz jet type rating schools appreciated
5what sort of salary can a F.O expect with the biz jet operators
6 what is the average yearly hours flown on biz jets
many thanks to all who have replied and to those who may reply.
7 LRdriver II SO WHAT TYPE WOULD YOU RECOMEND AND WHERE TO DO THIS?

[dfspilot]

Pull Up Whoop Whoop check your pms.

[mutt]

I did a TR on a Cessna 550 Bravo last year 260hrs TT

Did you get a job??

Recently advertised for BBJ crews, rejected all who applied with a type rating but no hours on type.

There is a valid reason why people advise you not to buy a type rating, but if you dont want to listen, thats totally up to you!

BTW, with your experience level, you wont be able to transfer the FAA rating to JAA, therefore you would have to repeat the rating.

Mutt

[istabraq]

as usual thread has turned into a DONT BUY A TYPE RATING DEBATE. what i think dfspilot is looking for is information so he can make his own mind up and not the personal opinions of pilots sitting in their comfortable highly paid jobs quoting bbj jobs when this is clearly not even the type he is talking about. as usual with any newly qualified cpl/ir he is just asking about options and where should he go from here so as to move on, like so many others ( remember he wont be the only newbee reading this thread ). so for once could we all get off our high horses and give the guy a break and offer some helpfull advice for a change!!!!!!!!!!!:{ :ugh:

[dfspilot]

thank you istabraq for your reply, but everyone has their own opinion so all opinions good or bad are welcome. i have been looking at lasors about doing the biz jet type rating in USA and have just come across the 500 hour rule which negates the option of going stateside to do it. i suppose the only real option is to do it in europe . BUT WHERE, ANY OPTIONS PLEASE. thank you again for all your replies.
just looked at caa website and according to their list of caa approved type rating conversion courses they list both cae simuflite and flight safety international as jaa approved and therefore caa approved for the cessna 500/550/560. so does this qualify as a type rating in europe or not or am i barking up the wrong tree again.

[CL300]

If you are looking for a small type like C500 series, you should start with the websites of the providers like flightsafety or Simuflite, look into their international headquarters ( Paris, Farnborough, Dubai, etc.) If looking into a commuter type then same thing. However you should be better off trying to find a job first THEN pay for the rating, the rating is not a key or sesame of any kind it is just a leverage to you CPL/IR/MCC.
On your Jar Licence, you will have to do the base check in the aircraft as well; on top of it IF you find a job after that , you are most likely to go AGAIN in the sim for the OPC, because you were not train to operator standards, EXCEPT if you fly for a private operator, BUT in a C500 you are most likely not going to be paid at ALL!!

I'm not going into the debate shall I or Not; but ANY sensible operator either would pay for your type and bond you; or ask you to pay for it, but you would have a job then ! Remember a lot of the C500 series left the "owner flown single pilot ish market" in favor of the C525, most of them single pilot EXCEPT in commercial ops; but then you are stuck for another OPC/LPC/Line training......

Not an Easy choice; the bottom line is that that you need hours, so go for a year or two instructing, get a FI THEN do your rating ( you might be lucky and meet someone who will help you along the line :ouch: )

[unablereqnavperf]

DFS pilot its people like you that are screwing this industry up and I for one sincerely hope you never get a job with your attitude. I have never paid for a type rating (last check of log book I have 27types) and indeed never will.

I did offer you some advice as to what you really need to do to get that first job but its seems that you are not able to accept sound advice which generally shows a poor attitude and an inability to be trained.

I do recruiting for my employer and I can tell you we will not employ a type rating with no experience on type! ( and we are an operator of the types you are considering) We happily pay for type ratings for the right type of pilot,and cover all expences whislt your under training!

When we look for type rated pilots we have to have at the very least 500hrs on type.

I have said this before to many pilots and will say it again "self sponsoring a type rating is a cancer that needs to be stoped before the terms and conditions suffer any further.

And before you sayits to hard to get a job I always try and give inexperienced pilots a break whenever possible.

[chlong]

unablereqnavperf , jesus who rattled your cage. remember dfspilot didnt start the whole idea of paying for a type rating, it was started a long time ago by somebody who good or bad should be blamed and if it is the case as you say that no one should pay for a type rating , can you tell me why there are so many trto taking sstr guys and their money with some even closing applications because they are so busy. are they all to sit around waiting on guys like you to GIVE THEM A BREAK. i agree with you about paying for a type rating by the way, i think its criminal that after spending so much time, effort and money that all frozen atpl students do, that it is very difficult to find that first opening. good for you and your 27 type ratings but your attitude is not helpfull. as regards his training, you know nothing about him or anyone elses training ,so how you can make that statement justs shows your arrogance.
unfortunately more and more airlines are going the MOL route and we all know what he would tell you and i to do with our opinions. unfortunately aviation is gone the way of most industries, it is about the bottom line, not the employees /customers. vent your anger ( as it is clearly keeping you up at night ) on the airlines that force us into this position in the first place and then maybe we will listen to your advice. by the way i wouldnt want to work with someone who clearly is so opinionated and unable to treat people with a bit of respect which from your reply you are clearly lacking. i and i am sure dfspilot have read hundreds of posts on pprune regarding all sorts of topics, are all job hunting newbees supposed to pick your post out as being gospel. KEEP YOUR RANTS TO YOURSELF IF YOU CANT BACK IT UP WITH HARD FACTS.GET A LIFE.:= := := :=

[Roja]

Hi

Nothing stirs up a wasp's nest like the ole " what TR should I pay for ", I think its criminal that companys get "us" to do this, but these days me thinks its a necessary evil !

So if I could put my bit in and ask the question

" what type rating would be best for a freelancer to pay for "

I understand that this wouldnt be of any use without a companys agreement to do your OPC/Line training and all that malarky, but im sure some would help out if they knew they were getting a good freelance Captain/FO out of it.

So can we change the question to that.

In answer to the original question ( best TR to pay for )
With your current hrs, mmmmmmmm.............Kingair, but with your hrs you would need a company who operates them Multi Crew, CJ would be a good one, lots of them coming into the country (UK), the C550 would be a good one, lots of them about, im pretty sure you could unfreeze your ATPL with this one, where'as you couldnt with the other 2 mentioned.

Hope this helps !!


Roja

[dfspilot]

thank you roja, at last a reasoned reply.

[unablereqnavperf]

chlong
You have stated exactly what I was trying to say! Just because some To****s with more cash than ability have gone out and paid for a type rating don't follow on. After all would you jump into a fire just because youre mate has? This practice is degtrading the industry and driving down terms and conditions and as long as pilots do it there are some very poor employers that will take advantage of you when you have bought yourself a job, they usually turn out to be sharks and don't last 5 mins and then leave you broke!
At the moment the job market for pilots is boyant however getting that elusive first job remains difficult even when you by yourself a rating, the only gaurentee you get is that you will be a lot more out of pocket!
When your trying to get that first job you are far better of trying to get into a company doing a related job (ie. ops or crewing) that will give you the oportunity to meet and influence the decision makers in that company and get yourself into a right hand seat!
Rather spend your hard earned cash on getting around and trying to speak to people be persistant but try not to be a nuisance( a difficult balancing act) and eventually you will get a job worth having.
The industry is in danger of melt down at the moment and the type of companies that make you pay for your own rating will go down the swanie and you'll be left stranded.
I've been in this business since 1979 and have seen this all before.
As for the tone of your reply perhaps you would like to reconsider as peopel like me are in a position to employ people like you perhaps you would like to reconsider your responce!!:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:
DFSpilot
PM if you like we can continue this discusion.

[lowcostnomore]

YO, coming from a low cost operator as I see it,the terms and conditions are gone and as far as i can see are not coming back. So as I have my so called nice comfy number I cannot give out advice, however I was lucky when starting out, to have my rating paid. If as I was starting out today with the same initial burning desire to fly and not much/no other choice i would pay the rating and get on the ladder and maybe after a few years break even.And remember as I do, I would have signed anything gone anywhere to jump out of a c152 and into a B737. So good luck to the next victims and get friendly with your bank manager.:ugh:

[Roja]

Hi

Right !

As I have already mentioned " paying for your own TR is a necessary evil these days "

Going back to the basic question asked, the guy is 42 with 290 hrs (not in an ops job and does not at his age have the time to), and if im not mistaken..................desperate to get paid to be a pilot, all of us want to get into this industry and do as well as we can, to most, its a life long ambition.
The fact of the matter is that there is more wannabes than there is jobs ! so the basic rule of economics apply's, when the US fleet has docked..................the price rises before the panties fall ! so the airlines at the moment hold the G-string, the day will come when the reverse is true ( me thinks ), then all this pay for your own type rating malarky will be a distant memory, but until then, for us that havent got 27 TR's or been in this game since 1979 and are'nt that well known or established with probably a good reputation(not that I know you), we will have to bite the bullet to get those much required hours before we can hop onto a modern airliner or fancy bizjet.

Stop givin the guy a hard time just because he asked a question which is perfectly valid during these times.

dfspilot....................where are you based ? have you done a survey of the bizjet operators in your area and what is the most popular aircraft ?, this of course would be invaluable in your assesment of which TR to pay for, speak to those operator's see if you can work something out, without jumping first !

Roja:ugh:

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Mutt, why would you reject the guy who paid for his type and thus saved you money, and time.

I am not in favour of the buy it yourself TR, but it does happen.

I am currenly working with a very young guy, who was promised a job if he worked in the hanger created manuals, then paid for his own G5 type rating. I deplore the situation, but fully support him, and hope to mentor him.

Glf

[mildly amused]

I know a guy in the same position who self funded a type rating on the c525.

he is now working for centreline out of eggd where he is paid well gaining jet time and will be very employable for heavier equipment in a year or so.

the type rating is available in germany at around £8k

the c525 is a good starting point as there are many varients included in the same tr, and lots of european operators.

centreline have a second cj to crew and are looking for more fo,s

[unablereqnavperf]

Roja
You are extremely dilusional those good times you speak of are here at the moment,finding a first job has never been this easy believe me! If you'd been looking for a job in 1993/4/5 you'd be in an even more difficult situation trust me I was there things turned around towards the end of the ninties and have improved steadily since. Paying for type ratings just to get that first job will have a downward force on terms and conditions which will affect you guys much more than me.(only got about 12 years to go)


Salaries today are,in real terms that is around 50% of what they were 20 years ago. A friend of mine driving trains for South West trains earns as much as a first officer at some of the loco's and doesn't work as hard or as long! You only have to look at the lifestyles of the current BA retiree's and compare what a current new hire can look forward to,to see what I mean.

Still you comit proffesional suicde if you like its your call!

[dfspilot]

unablereqnavperf, check your pms.

[Roja]

Hello


Ok ! so the good times are here are they ? well instead of bangin on about all the shouldnt pay for TR malarky, please tell us who will hire and pay for the TR for a guy with at 42 and 290hrs ?
In many cases the airlines still want you to stump up a good wad of cash to pay for most if not all of your own TR

Granted that going out and getting yourself a TR on a 737 or the like's and having no job at the end of it is absolute madness, as your not trained to an airlines particular SOP's.

I do agree that we are at a good time in aviation, with a relatively large amount of jobs available for Fo's, but there are far more wannabes than there are jobs right now, so the wannabes with the "quality" hours get the jobs.

Mildly amused : where in Germany did your friend get his C525 rating for 8K, was it done in the aircraft or a sim ?


dfs : I would think that if you got yourself a C525 rating and worked as an FO, you could expect 25k per year, depending on the company you work for the hrs could be between 200-600, as I already mentioned the Bravo rating would probably be better for you, no sure what salary to expect on one of them but i dont think it would be much more than already stated.


Roja:ugh:

[unablereqnavperf]

Roja,
It will allways be difficult to get that first job regardless of how good the good times are 1988/9 was exeptional many pilots got their first break then and many bought type rating and only ended up with a large debt!

dfspilot,
check your pm's!

[Caudillo]

unablereqnavperf - Given your obvious familiarity with the industry and your position as a recruiter within it, I'm surprised at how firm and dogmatic your position regarding self-funded type ratings is. However, to be fair, you certainly are not alone in your view.

I appreciate your argument and applaud your advice to go out and get speaking to the right people, however I think it's flawed - I've said before I'm sure, that a large part of getting the first job is luck - so by its very nature it's uncertain. I hope you'd agree that this industry is one where aptitude and talent only count for so much, the rest being a roll of the dice.

So faced with the prospect of continued unemployment, and ones experience commensurate with age diminishing daily - is it not unreasonable for someone to pay for a rating even to the possible eventual detriment of their future colleagues and themselves?

Being a recruiter I'm sure you'll agree that 99% of the job of a professional pilot involves playing within the rules and existing structures of aviation - it's really no different for someone looking for their break. At least within a company there is a recognisable, somewhat coherent group of people with shared interests and needs - but no necessarily so when outside of one. So despite what is I'm sure a noble sentiment, your complaints I'm afraid will remain exactly that. People will give themselves every advantage to progress in life, regardless. They're even more likely to do this when they have no close-knit grouping of which to be part - and I've got to say, I think it's entirely reasonable of them
Cheers

[dfspilot]

unablereqnavperf, check your mail.

[LRdriver II]

Ho hum.. if you really want to fly a shiney jet/ pay a rating please go hang out with the rest of the prostitutes in the airline wannabe forum. Please stay out of the Corporate world as we would like to keep our T'n'Cs :hmm:
The Airline industry cant be saved so I am staying right here in bizjets where we still have a chance to save ourselves from folks like you.

[unablereqnavperf]

Caudillo,
At last some one how see's a bit of sence. You are indeed correct that luck pays a hugh part in getting that first job which is why I'm some dogmatic about people trowing good,herd earned money away on what is essentially a tthrow of the dice. As LRdriverII says in the Biz jet community we are more determined than ever to keep the cancer of the SSTR out as long as possible.

I fully understand the lure of flying shinney jets got many of those T-shirts but I also understand the need to make a good living from doing so as,believe me the pleasure soon turns to penance! Lots of hanging around aimlessly waiting for a client to turn up and then being bol****ed because you don't have the tright kind of orange juice on board or some thing of a similar nature you soon realise that there has to be more reward.

We are working extremely hard to keep this a proffesion worth working in. Its a fact that an F/o on a SSTR in a loco is earning less that the most junior cabin crew members, and they did not SS their licence.

Flying is a great career and only the determined will make it into the jobs that are worth having buying your self a type rating will only win you temporary joy with an operator that does not deserve to be in the business.

We have recently given two guys a break one in his mid 40's with low hours the other in mid 30's from a flying instructor background both got their type ratings paid and both are flying shinney jets, in addition we have given quite a few guys slots on Kingairs again they were paid for by us.

The long and the short of it is there are good jobs out there and there are better ways to get one than prostituting yourself! Get your self out and about make your name known and who knows you may roll the right dice and when you do you will be happy you didn't stoop to far!

[His dudeness]

LR driver II :
where we still have a chance to save ourselves from folks like you.
Too late, I´m afraid. Loads of people buying their way in. Has been so, will be so.
Only companies that realize that a settled, stable and satisfied workforce is the key to LONGTERM success pay for the rating. Unfortunately, given the growth in our business, the major part of the lot let at least the F/Os pay.
My last outfit was such bunch, (12 out of 14 pilots sacked or voted with their feet within a year!) let them pay, let them work their butts off, abuse em every way and then shrug the shoulders when they leave after half a year to a year in the company. One of the clients summed it up pretty well, when the F/O introduced himself: "Oh, do I have to remember your name or will you be gone soon as all the others?"
High staff turnover, as often met within SSTR organizations, is seldom a good sign - yet they get away with it! And lets face it: its way easier to "manage" with fear, pressure and dishonesty, than creating a good environment, which would make people stay.
My solution is easy: If I get a resume on the desk, saying "willing to pay for rating", it would head straight to the bin. Period. Been there, done that.

[chlong]

LRdriver II (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=87192) another bully me thinks.!!!!!!!!!:= :yuk:

[LRdriver II]

Oh yea.. the amount of CVs lying on our company desk.. all annotated with a "will self fund rating" has been a temptation to managment but we prefer to hire people on the basis of personality as I want people to stay..longterm..not bugger off as soon as they get 100 hours on type. Just because you have a rating does not mean you are a nice person or have the personality to fit in with the team. Also a SSTR rookie is only a short term solution to a companies needs as they typically have nothing invested in you so can flick you out like yesterdays date.

Chlong, I may be alot of things but not a bully. I have helped numerous F/Os into corporate flying and will continue to do so in the same vain I myself was hired into the industry. Returning the favour like I promised an old captain I would when he got me in. But you are right, I won't entertain your CV purely because of the SSTR offer, but on the merits of your other qualities that you will bring to company.

[Pull Up Whoop Whoop]

To those who have been fortunate enough in their career in aviation not to have paid for a type rating....well done:D ....but for the rest of us 'Bottom Feeders' we have to do whatever we can to get employed and gain some useful experience. I am sure I can answer for most here, I for one do not have an endless supply of money to spend on training, so it was a trade off with income/loan but I surely was not in a position to be on a full time instructors wage for long, so I did ss a tr, yes I have debt, yes I earn less money than I did in a previous career, but what the hell, I am doing what I want to do :) I am in no doubt that it has opened the door of opportunity, so good luck to everyone...

[pipertommy]

Hi, Just wondering do biz jet operators need pilots to meet minimum hours requirement for recruitment ie need to have a base limit on total time to be employed for the "insurance policy"?Or is it up to the operator?
Thanks.

[dboy]

hello

A few months ago i decided to quit flying. I really tried everything to get a job and I did not care if it is was a prop or jet aircraft.

But unfortunately i was not able to get something. I remember there was a moment i considered to buy my own type but i'm happy i was too stubborn to do this and yes, i wanted to go on with my life instead of "hanging around and making no progression in my life". It was a very hard decision but now i'm glad i took the good decision and refused to spend any pennies in aviation.

Ok everybody is free to decide, but please, take your time to think if you want to buy a rating. If you want to get a bizz rating, keep in mind that it will probably for a freelance job. Ok if you are 42 and has the money and prepared to take the risk, go for it. But make sure that ,if it doesn't turn like you've wished, you don't regret what you did.

So good luck and think hard!!
dboy

.

[Pull Up Whoop Whoop]

A lot of operators require a minimum number of hours, but this is to keep premiums down, just depends how tight the operator is as to whether or not they pay for an exemption (and how much they need you!) I also believe the TRTO plays a part aswell.

With regards to the SSTR debate, as previously posted, I paid for a rating last year after a lot of consideration, but have just been fortunate enough to do another rating on a bigger aircraft and didnt pay a penny. So one could argue that if I had not got the first rating, I certainly wouldn't have got the next - My point is...."you do what you gotta do" , I am sure everyone has thought about chucking in the towel at some point, but all you do is make it easier for the next guy (or gal), stay positive, be determined and for goodness sake, be current! :ok:

[flyboyike]

I'm sorry I'm a little confused. First, you said:

sorry should have said i am not looking for replies from the dont buy a type rating brigade


Then, a couple of posts later, you said:

everyone has their own opinion so all opinions good or bad are welcome.


So, which is it?

[pipertommy]

Thank you for the replies:ok: