London Information and exact locations

[jasperyellow]

I am an aerial photography pilot who frequently uses London Information for a FIS. Due to the nature of the work I operate at fairly low altitudes and am always aware of the potential dangers of low flying military traffic. To try and minimise the risks I always try and give as precise a position as I can because we can often be on site orbiting for anything up to an hour at a time. My question is really how specific can I be with my position reports - If Im operating over a fairly small village would ATC appreciate being told this or would they prefer to be told my position relative to a larger town or city? I ask because London Information cover such a large area it would be impossible for the controllers to have local knowledge in the same way that an controller providing a FIS at an aerodrome would be able to. Basically how can I help you to keep me safe?

[BDiONU]

Basically how can I help you to keep me safe?
Ask for a radar service (not from FIR obviously) because FIR only provide an information and alerting service, thats information on traffic they know the position of (assuming that position is accurate in the first instance) and that traffic keeps their position updated.
Best way for you to keep yourself safe is yea olde Mk1 eyeball ;)

BD

[Roffa]

jasper,

I may be teaching you to suck eggs, but do you use the CANP (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4Y223.PDF) procedure?

That's probably one of the most effective things you can do for alerting the military to your presence.

[WireFired]

Hi. Don't want to try & teach you to suck eggs but do you use the Civil Aircraft Notification Procedure (CANP)?

Checking in with the Low Flying Booking Cell will
(in theory) ensure that your operating location will be disseminated to the military users of the UK Low Flying System. You can get hold of them on 0800 515544 (not less than 4 hours before your flight). Full information on the use of CANP is published in AIC 43/2005 (Yellow 167) & in the UK AIP ENR 1-10-13.

If you intend operating at or below 1000' AGL & are engaged in aerial photography, following this procedure is, I'm sure, already part of your pre-flight planning.

After you're airborne, a RIS, limited RIS or even a FIS from a ATSU seems like a better bet than using London Information. But, if London Information are the only option make sure you squawk 7000 with Mode C & keep a lookout.

Hope this helps.

[WireFired]

Roffa.
You got there ahead of me & using the same colloquialism! :D

[jasperyellow]

Thanks for the advice, my question was more intended for times - such as the weekends when a RIS is not availiable or at times when we operate outside of the LARS area of coverage and therfore London Information is the best availiable service.

[BurglarsDog]

Jasper Y.

As said before USE CANAP. Or .....:Look up the CARNO incident ! .....Then use CANAP.

Rgds BD:ok:

[RAC/OPS]

Assuming that you don't use CANP or a radar service for whatever reason, I would say be specific about the name of the village, but give it as a range and bearing from a well known place (bigger town, aerodrome, navaid etc), eg, operating at Little Chucklebury on the Hill, which is 8 miles NW of XXX VOR etc. Maybe for the FIS guys give them a clue as to which county as well!

[loubylou]

I agree with RAC/OPS - give the exact position - followed by nearest large town - and use that when you're getting a FIS from any unit - not just the FIR. I may not know where Little Dunny on the Wold is - but chances are I can find the big places!!
louby

[jasperyellow]

Thanks for the good advice all. Very helpful - now just need some good clear weather again so I can go up and put it into practice.

[eyeinthesky]

If military jets are your worry, then the London FIS will be of no use as they don't talk to them. The only defence is eyes out of the cockpit and not lingering in their usual height bands. Put as many lights on as you can and keep changing your course as much as possible to increase the chances of you being seen. Leave the photographer to concentrate on the ground!

[tired-flyboy]

my question was more intended for times - such as the weekends

Well there is the obvious answer to your question, you don't need to worry about mil traffic at the weekend.

Don't know of any stations that fly at the weekends except maybe the odd in and out from Brize.

lol

:ok:

[niknak]

Whilst en route today I had box two tuned in to 124.6, on 6 consecutive occassions when the frequency was very, very quiet, aircraft called for clearances into Dutch and Danish airspace.

On each ocassion the pilot transmitted callsign, aircraft type, destination, and estimate for the FIR boundary, on each occassion the FISO asked for precisely the information the pilot had just transmitted to her to be repeated, on one occassion, twice.
Additionally, three of the aircraft reported that they were recieving a radar service form another unit and just required a crossing clearnace - on each occassion the FISO insructed them to squawk the FIR squawk without asking them if they were released from their previous unit.

What has happened to London FIS? They used to be staffed by ATCOs doing a very good job as FISOs, now they appear to be a bunch of wonks with no idea of what the real world of ATC is all about.:ugh:

[SwanFIS]

Harsh words niknak. I guess you heard EGSH - EHAM pilots requesting MOLIX joins to enter Amsterdams airspace, working London Mil on their other box. Standard call for us so there must have been another reason for the poor service that has riled you. U/t FISO, poor reception, background noise at LACC there could have been a number of reasons. A pity all the same.

The service provided by LACC and ScACC Area FISOs is of a very high standard. Yes I am biased, but reports from pilots and other ATC units support this view. You heard someone having a bad day or maybe affected by technical problems so you slam all the FISOs and the service they provide.

I watch and listen to controllers making a pigs ear of it at times but that is no reason for me to say that all controllers are rubbish. Luckily the majority of us work as a team and have mutual respect for those around us.

[AlanM]

Whilst at work the other day, and having cleared an aircraft through the Heathrow Zone, they failed to answer the radio as they were "just letting 124.6 know". They were at Burnham at the time and needed to come west slightly for separation vs LHR des

Pilots used to be switched on - now they appear to be a bunch of wonks with no idea of what the real world of ATC is all about.

Enough said Nikker Nakkers??!?!?!

Keep Smiling SwanFIS:)

[SwanFIS]

I never stopped :) :ok:

[eyeinthesky]

SwanFIS:
Absolutely right, the generalisation was a little harsh. However, there are those of your colleagues (and I'm sure you know who they are) who seem to do some things by rote, with little apparent understanding of why they are doing things or what to do with the information they elicit from every aircraft that they interrogate. It would give more confidence if relevant information was sought at the appropriate time (e.g report at one turning point is a good time to ask for the estimate for the next, and you don't really need to know my full route on first contact).

For example:
When I call London FIS and they ask me for an estimate for my destination which is some 5 turning points and 90 mins away, it makes me wonder what they are going to do with that information and how that will help with conflict detection. My level, next point and ETA for it are all that's needed.

I did hear a great call the other week where traffic which called airborne from Lydd for Prestwick via Dean Cross was asked for his estimate for Dean Cross some 90 mins ahead and that was it. No mention of the control zones or identification of intermediate turning points en route. I would defy anyone to provide a meaningful FIS on that basis.:hmm:

[SwanFIS]

Eyeinthesky I agree, fair criticism and something that does worry me when I hear it.

You use the phrase "meaningful FIS" and I wonder if your interpretation of that service is not leaning towards the Americans flight following. We do check along the intended route and look for potential problems but in doing so we lead some pilots into thinking they are receiving a higher service than a FIS. This can lull some into a false sense of security. A number of CAS infringements occur because plots think that they are being radar monitored and will be prompted if they stray too close to CAS, DAs etc.

The ETAs that we ask for are either to prompt us to take a certain action or just so that we can keep a mental picture of where you are on your route. We all have our different ways of achieving that.

[Chilli Monster]

I did hear a great call the other week where traffic which called airborne from Lydd for Prestwick via Dean Cross was asked for his estimate for Dean Cross some 90 mins ahead and that was it. No mention of the control zones or identification of intermediate turning points en route.

And there's already been one CAS infringement, by a Professional pilot, of a certain CTA in the midlands, doing just what was mentioned above. There was no prompt, to my knowledge, from the ground of who he should have been talking to.

[fireflybob]

Firstly my experience of London (and Scottish!) FIS is that they generally do a great job - thanks guys!

In the "olden days" we used to talk to FIS a lot more than we do now (remember the halcyon days of the Preston FIR and estimates for 5230N?) as there wasnt much CAS or LARS so both pilots and controllers were much more up to speed, I feel, on using the system. When as an instructor I suggest a pilot calls the FIS a big thinks bubble appears, often followed by some question as to "Who are they and/or what do they do?"!

I would like to suggest from the comments above that in order for us to get the best out of the system we need to become "team players". OK its not the FIS job to tell the pilot who he should be calling but a gentle nudge here and there can save a lot of heartache!. Bit like if a football teams loses 30 goals to nil, you wouldnt blame it all on the goalkeeper!
Fly Safe!

[SwanFIS]

"I would like to suggest from the comments above that in order for us to get the best out of the system we need to become "team players". OK its not the FIS job to tell the pilot who he should be calling but a gentle nudge here and there can save a lot of heartache!. Bit like if a football teams loses 30 goals to nil, you wouldnt blame it all on the goalkeeper!
Fly Safe!"

That gets the big :ok: from me.:D