Pax cockpit access - are there rules?

[takemehome]

Folks, I apologise if this is in the wrong forum room. This is my first post, though I've been an interested SLF member here for many years and thus I value your sage opinions immensely.
Last night I flew Nok Air (DD), the budget arm of TG, from Krabi to the recently re-opened Don Mueang airport in Bangkok, and was surprised to see a civilian go into the cockpit while we were on the ground prior to departure. I mentioned this to the cabin crew, who told me it was OK because "he's a captain".
That was an acceptable explanation and I thought no more, until we had just started descent into Bangkok and he walked back to the cockpit with his two sons (probably around 14 and 12 y.o.) and took them in and closed the door.
At this point I became concerned, because we now had 5 people in a 734 cockpit, and the crew were obviously running through landing procedures.
I voiced my concerns to the cabin crew and asked them to pass them to the Captain, which they did, and this guy and his two kids emerged some minutes later. As he walked past me he smiled and handed me his business card, which had him as a senior employee of Nok Air.
Apart from what appears to be an abuse of his position with the airline, are there any international rulings about having passengers in the cockpit in these days of heightened security, or should I just put this down to idiocy, particularly as he waited until we had started descent to wheel in the kids? Or perhaps it varies by airline?
As we were collecting our baggage he came over to engage me in conversation about where I lived (unfortunately for him, in Bangkok) and what we'd been doing in Krabi. I told him straight out that I thought he'd acted irresponsibly, to which he replied that it was OK because his job is making sure the crew are working properly (though what that had to do with showing his two kids around an operating cockpit escapes me!)
I'd be interested to know if anyone knows the rules and regs pertaining to pax in the cockpit, particularly in Thailand where the rule of law seems to be discretionary at the best of times.
Cheers.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

What issue exactly are you troubled about?

(a) Are you worried that a 14yr old or a 12yr old might be a terrorist?

(b) Are you worried about distractions for the operating crew?

To the first worry - well, I think we all know the answer to that...... :hmm:

To the second - pre 9/11, it was never, EVER, allowed become a problem. If such visits DID become distracting they would be (politely) asked to leave. Simple. Did that a few times.

We have become a sad, pathetic, frightened, species, terrified of our own shadows.

Mate - good on the Captain, as far as I'm concerned! Couldn't do such a thing in this pathetic country (Aus) as I'd get sacked.... :suspect: How sad. Children no longer allowed to be inspired....

The way things are going, there will be NO new pilots in the future, as all our youngsters will never have been inspired and enthused about the profession.

But that's ok, because guys like me will very soon be able to negotiable multi-million-dollar contracts for our labour! :ok:

[Gary Lager]

Rules vary from state to state, and are enforced in varying degrees. It all used to be fine pre-911, which IMHO was a one-off, and I would be certainly happy to have visitors back in the flight deck, would the CAA and my company allow it.

I wouldn't worry about it, concern over things like this may just mean you've been reading the Daily Mail too much!;)

[takemehome]

Point taken. Thanks lads. 'Tis true that more than once when I was a lot younger I was allowed up the front by some of your friendly peers and that piked my interest in flying greatly.

This was more a question about whether there were hard and fast international rules about cockpit access these days post 9/11, and whether Nok Air were flaunting the rules. After all, the sign on the door says "Crew Only".

If so, then it's not out of the question that they could do the same with other regulations and requirements, thus requiring a judged decision as to whether they are the best carrier option to fly locally.

With the likes of Phuket Air and Adam Air popping up from time to time around the region I find it's helpful to one's longevity to stay informed.

[Sky Wave]

Any pilot will tell you that we have had people sitting behind us watching what we're doing regularly from day 1. When flying light aircraft the pax are next to you and right behind you, it's no different than a car. In the airlines it could be new pilots learning the ropes, Cabin Crew seeing how it's done, ATCO's seeing what we do on the flight deck or of course other captains checking/examining your flying. It's no more of a distraction than having someone sat in the car with you when you're driving along the road.

I'd welcome flight deck visits, and would love to have my mum and dad sit on the jumpseat for a flight, unfortunately I don't see it happening, which is a great shame.

[INNflight]

It is so sad to see visits on the 41 000ft office are hardly possible anymore, especially for children.

I got onto the flight deck on my 3rd flight, probably at the age of 6 or 7 and was thrilled from the very first second.

Passion didn't stop over all the years.

[cargo boy]

There are a myriad of rules and regulations regarding access to the flight deck whilst airborne. Sadly, the ones that allowed many of us to have visitors were irrevocably changed after 9/11 even though that had nothing to do with 'visitors'. The knee jerk reactions, especially by the Americans even though they never allowed 'visitors' before 9/11 anyway, caused us over here in the UK many problems.

The powers that be do not think that we or our cabin crew have enough common sense to decide whether someone shuld or shouldn't be able to visit the flight deck. Their main argument was that opening the flight deck door would give an opportunity for every terrorist to dive in and take over control of the aircraft. They based their fear on their paranoia that every flight was a target.

As far as NOK Air is concerned on an internal flight, I have no idea and I sincerely hope that they haven't totally capitulated to the US blanket ruling that is tragically based on a single bad experience even though their own fairly lax security checks were partly to blame. Without a doubt, any flight to or from the USA is sublect to the TSA ruling that only authorised personnel with a flight duty are allowed in the flight deck. How other countries enact their rules, if they have any at all, is open to their own interpretations.

Unfortunately here in the UK, there is no discretion for us to even have parents, spouses or siblings on the flight deck during flight, never mind total strangers unless they are crew qualified and work for the same airline. The DfT have succumbed to the US method of blanket banning. For us pilots, especially on longer flights there is no longer the opportunity to explain to wide eyed visitors what everything does and for them to enjoy the vistas that we do.

For many of us, myself included, it was the opportunity to visit the flight deck that kindled the desire to take up the profession in the first place. Subsequent visits only enhanced that desire and led to a passion that, after a lot of hard work and expense eventually led to a career which many envy and less and less aspire to.

The ramifications of the new regulations that forbid flight deck visits whilst in flight will have their biggest effect approximately 15 years after they were introduced as the dearth of qualified and experienced pilots dries up due to there being insufficient new applicants to the profession because not enough of them know enough about it and never had that inspirational visit to the flight deck that kindled their dreams. That and the relentless security regimes we have to go through just to get to and from work as we are suspected of being terrorists thanks to inept and ignorant decision makers who make rules based on what looks effective rather than what would be effective.

As was mentioned above, too many people believe what they read in the newspapers and have little or no understanding of what is a security threat. The odds of a 9/11 style attack happening again are slim to none. The next attack will come out of the blue and everyone will wonder why they hadn't thought of that before. Then watch all the stable doors being closed AFTER the horse has bolted again. :ugh: The nanny society demands that we live in perpetual fear so that those that govern us and approve the rules can better control us. The rest of us have to put up with the bovine excrement and hundreds of thousands of people will never get a glimpse of what inspires us to do the job we do.

Roll on 2016. If it wasn't for the pay we'll be able to demand by then I'd have thrown the towel in long ago. :hmm:

[firstchoice7e7]

whats the big deal? as long as the captain didnt let the kids have a go with the controls. (a certain Aeroflot A310 incident comes to mind):eek:

[fantaman]

Personally I dont see any problem here. I'm sure if the crew felt they were a distraction and were hampering their efforts to complete all their pre-landing checks in a suitable time frame, they would have asked the visitors to leave the flight deck. I'm also sure that the vice president of flight crew training is experienced enough to know when it was suitable to make a visit to the flight deck.

Its sad that pax are no longer allowed to visit the flight deck, my first memory of flying was a visit to the flight deck of an Air UK BAe 146 from Glasgow to Edinburgh.

As an aside, do airlines (pax or cargo) allow people to fly in the jump seat? I'm an ATCO (Mil) and wouldn't mind seeing what the cargo guys do on a shift :ok:

[Danny]

fantaman, I don't see why mil ATCO's can't have the same privileges as civilian ATCO's do. In my airline we have exchange liaison visits with the RAF where we get to have a go in one of their jets and they come with us on a long haul trip on the jump seat. It just requires a letter from the relevant person to approve the flight deck jump seat.

The same applies to civilian ATCO's who want to experience our job from the jump seat. They need to get in touch with the company and make the request. Probably has to go through your own management first though.

The more on the flight deck, the merrier, I say!

[621andy]

When I'm in Myanmar in the winter, we regularly jumpseat.:ok: It helps if we hand our business cards to the hosties. My misssus went up the sharp end of an ATR on our last trip and stayed for the landing.:) she came back raving about it- this is someone who 'humours' my interest in things flying normally;)

[old,not bold]

How things change...

In the Middle-East airline where I learned the trade prior to 1990, the jump seat was where the overbooked/important last-minute passenger sat.

[cwatters]

In many walks of life there need to be rules, but it's impossible to write rules that cover all eventualities. These days we seem to have a "rules are everything" attitude. People are becoming scared to do anything because they are afraid of breaking the letter of the rule rather than the spirit of the rule. I'm not sure what the solution is but perhaps a right to a defence of "reasonable behavior" is what's required?

It's interesting that our attitude to risk differs from country to country. I spent some time in Belgium recently and one winter we arrived at our kids school to find the teachers lighting braziers in the school playground. I think they were roasting Chestnuts. I can't imagine that happening in the UK where playing conkers is banned in some schools unless you wear gloves and eye protection.

[ABX]

Quite a while ago as a youngster of 18 I was allowed to sit in the jump seat all the way from the terminal at BNE to the terminal at SYD on an Air Niugini Airbus, an experience for which I am very grateful and will never forget. Such visits certainly help fuel the passion.

[Homepage]

"In many walks of life there need to be rules"

I agree.
This has come about as a result of experience: Experience has shown it is a GOOD IDEA to have people perform some of their tasks/duties in a uniform way. These Good Ideas get formalised in to rules. Rules evolve just like airline SOP's or a countries national legislations.

The evolution of rules must, in my opinion, employ an understandable logic.
The same idea of logic that we are expected, indeed demanded to employ at every step of performing as pilots.

For me, this logic is missing in some areas of being a pilot today, particularly in the area of security. In one breath logic is demanded from us, in the next breath we are demanded not to seek logic.

This situation is a contradiction.
That contradiction requires patience to live through. Patience of course is demanded from us too. Indeed it is becoming of a professional.

By our contracts and as professionals we must adhere to the rules which are ushered in to enhance the security system - unless we have a very good reason not to. And no, "logic" is not a good enough reason. Yet we are aware of glaring weaknesses in that system every day we take part in it.
This is another contradiction.

The spirit of evolution means to me that things should improve year after year, decade after decade. This shoud be easily identified by looking at the system which has evolved. Some recent "evolutions" really leave me wondering....

[Load Toad]

I think it should go back to pre-9/11 days. Lets face it then the hijackers gained access to the cockpits because they were threatening people & worse with weapons they had smuggled on board aircraft through security systems at airports which were - a little lax.

One of the first things said after a terrorist attack is: They must not win; we must not change our way of life / be scared / loose our freedoms.

And darn it but if after the attack the first thing our governments do is act scared put in draconian security measures and change our way of life.

[Witraz]

I believe we could have some flexability with the 'Rules'
A couple of years ago I had my father as a passenger and he would dearly have liked to join me in the flight deck. But like all he is considered a threat after 50 years in aviation, having being an engineer, training captain and finally chief of air accident investigation. Oh, not forgetting him having the Legion Merit of Honour presented for his work on 'hostilities by terrorists against civilian aircraft'. Can he please visit the flight deck..................sorry NO!

[virga67]

Pre 9-11 our company had the cockpit door open all thru the flight-great way to meet the people in back as many would just wonder over to have a chat. Now we can still let passengers up front during flight, however not during t/o n landing. I really miss the easy going attitude of the olden days. For the chap starting this thread CHILL OUT!!!!! Flying an airplane is not some kind of magic that needs total concentration for the whole flight. Let the kids enjoy it too! Hopefully it will be a lasting impression for them.

[Dogma]

Very sad state of play.

The bottom line should be.... " ITS AT THE CAPTAINS DISCRETION!"

At the end of the day "Trissha", he/she is carrying the can.

:ugh:

[In trim]

I fully understand "appropriate" security restrictions in this day and age, and none of us would want to see security compromised by having an "open cockpit" mentality.

I am a Senior Manager in airline ground handling. I was extremely lucky that in the first 10 years of my career I was welcomed into the cockpit on multiple jump-seat trips, including into a number of very interesting airports.....terrain, steep approaches, etc.

Aside from it being of great interest to me (as a participant in other aerial sports) it was also a great education......and critically I know that I am now a much better and stronger Airline Manager (ground services / operations) as a result of those experiences. I have very good understanding of flight ops issues, the workload during weather diversions and go-arounds, etc. and this is of huge benefit in my role, safety meetings, etc.

As I said at the beginning, none of us would want to see a degradation in the required security levels. However, I'd like to think that the management of the future (i.e. the youngsters in the industry today) would get the same opportunities as I had.....but sadly I don't think that is the case, and the industry will suffer as a result.

In trim

[411A]

I decide who enters the FD, and if I say 'no entry' it is enforced without fail.
OTOH, if I want a guest, he/she is allowed...period.
NO ONE tells 411A who is allowed on the FD, and THAT is the way it is...full stop.
Any questions?:}

[old,not bold]

NO ONE tells 411A who is allowed on the FD, and THAT is the way it is...full stop.
Any questions?:}Bravo. But it must be simpler when you own the airline, as you obviously do.

[Earthmover]

... but he does have a point. Prior to 9/11 there were one or two 'senior managers' (non-operations) in my previous airline who thought it their absolute right to occupy the jump seat without having the courtesy to ask.

I said to one of them one day "how would you like it if I drifted into your office unannounced and sat in the corner watching everything you did and listening to all your conversations? Think that's a reasonable thing to do? - because that's precisely what you've just done here today"

He was a bit surprised - and then, to his credit, conceded the argument.

[rmiller774]

This thread reminds me of a certain U. S. submarine off the coast of Hawaii which was flashing by having a dozen or so civilian guests aboard during practice dives and surfacing. Some said that the guests distracted and crowded the crew and thereby may have contributed to the accident and the fatalities that resulted. Is such a distraction, even if very unlikely aboard an aircraft, worth taking the risk just to please an adult or some children who otherwise would not know the thrill they had missed? I don't know the rules re visitors to the Flight Deck, but I side with the first poster and would feel more comfortable if I could read official rules that state that an adult can take two children into an active Flight Deck with him.

[veloo maniam]

Airlines want to save money..yet not willing to allow flightdeck visits to the very people who can help save millions for them.please..please allow ATCO's to visit cockpits so that it will be a win-win for both. If the crew feels it's time for the jumpseat guy to go back we are more than willing to do so but don't deprive us of the excitement of being in the cockpit for awhile. cut all the red tape and stop using 9/11 as an excuse for licensed ATCO's.:ok:

[Xeque]

I echo what was said earlier in this thread. We have become terrified of anything that does not conform to the norms now set by those we 'elect' to (supposedly) look after our interests politically.
I haven't even bothered to ask for a visit 'up front' since 9/11. Before that I was a regular visitor. I always took my PPL with me and sent it up front with one of the cabin attendants when I made my request.
I sat in the jump seat for a BA Tristar arrival at Dhahran Saudi Arabia. I did the same on Cathay Pacific for an arrival at Hong Kong Kai Tak (sadly not the checker board approach). The late Captain Harry Gee let me sit right seat in a Brymon Twotter from LHR to Newquay via Plymouth. I've seen the Alps on a crystal clear moonlit winters night and my first visit to the Maldives was up front on an Air Lanka 737 with a superb low level trip aound the islands close to Male before landing. I got the jump seat as an 'extra' passenger on the way back to Colombo too.
In every case I was made most welcome by the crew.
Now? I don't know. I don't want to ask in case I embarrass the Captain because company SOP's now deny him/her the opportunity to welcome visitors. I know it does still happen. A member of the Thai Flying Club was a recent visitor on a Thai Inter 777 flight from Shanghai to Bangkok and stayed for the landing at Suvarnabhumi. Lucky chap.
What with this and the insanity of airport security restrictions it's about time we collectively told Dubya to stuff his War on Terror where the sun don't shine and got back to normal.

[flyer_spotter]

My friend was in the cockpits several times when he was flying with his dad (Airbus training captain for a certain major asian carrier)...so I guess family members are still allowed in.

[despegue]

In my company, we often take our friends/family on the jump for the whole flight. B737.
No problem. Security babboons often make a fus about it but hey, it is the Flight crew who decides who comes onboard and sits where and no-one else.
And yes, I fly for a Western European based carrier.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

despegue, mate, where do you work? Do you need pilots? Where do I sign?!?! :)

[old,not bold]

but hey, it is the Flight crew who decides who comes onboard and sits where and no-one elseOK Despegue, everyone's entitled to a view, but that's a remarkable take on how an airline works. I hope you understand your own job (whatever that is) a bit better.

That aside, I have believed for 30 years that Airline Directors should either travel economy or travel in the jump seat, and for some years was in the happy position of being able to enforce it, not as a Chairman, I hasten to add, but as the petty Hitler on the ramp who frequently had to tell Directors of one of the many airlines we handled, during a transit, that their safe-from-angry-customers, cosseted 1st Class seats had been re-allocated to a last-minute customer paying the full fare. Notably, only BA Directors and Captains would normally seek - unsuccessfully - to insist on their 1st Class rights, usually loudly and right in front of passengers, but I'm sure that this probably no longer happens as realism takes hold.

Economy travel provides a very good education for non-operational Directors about the difference between their advertising and the actual product; flight deck travel, especially long-haul, is an unparalled opportunity for two-way education. Both sides can learn a hell of a lot, if they are willing and able to listen.

PS Before someone leaps to chastise me, yes, we did ask the Captain before putting a Director into the jump seat. They universally saw the opportunity for what it was, and welcomed it.

[Wessex Boy]

As a lad in the '70s I went up to the flight deck on almost every flight with my Dad, quite often we came across people that had worked with my Grandfather at Channel Airways. The last time I managed it was Britannia B767 to Cancun in '98, where I spent over an hour up there chatting to the crew (Captain was a SFO on his final check ride before becoming a full Captain)
I would love to do the same for my Kids, but I daren't even ask nowadays, they will just have to be content with the RHS of a Warrior....

[papa juliet]

After reading this thread it seems that the people at the pointy end could still have time for the SLF, HOORAY.:D
My flying adventure started as a result of many,many hours spent travelling Australia and NZ and was ignited by an Ansett WA crew inviting me to take the jump seat in a 146 from Perth to Darwin.
I was so envious, the best view,the best seat "well not really" greatest office and they even got paid.
In the late nineties it was commonplace to be invited to the cockpit for landings and the occassional take-off, as a forty odd year old business owner doing rather well I decided to learn to fly.
Flying is a fatal attraction, you never stop learning, you never stop enjoying.
Back on track, the current rules are as stated a reaction to events which would be unlikely to arise again ,I am sure most of you would be happy to have the eight year old in the cockpit again,not much chance of him/her overpowering you is there.
Bring back the Captains discretion, it breaks the monotony of a long trip and even now I could enjoy FL39 as much as chugging around at 10,000:ok:

[Tigs2]

Takemehome
Having read your initial post and being a very frequent visitor to Thailand myself and understanding the culture completely, i really believe that the biggest distraction on the flight was you!
You were right to air your concern when the adult initially went on to the flight deck, but you were told that he was a Captain.....end of story. The kids going up would not have interferred with the landing checks, but you sending the cabin crew to inform of another complaint would have done. Rather than focusing on the job in hand, they spent the last few minutes either vocalising or thinking 'Who the f*** does he think he is, i am the Captain its my decision, i've been made to look a d***head in front of the VP etc etc etc'. To top it all, after admitting you don't know if there is a rule concerning this, you tell a repected member of the airline who comes over to you in the baggage hall and politely talks with you that you think he has behaved irresponsibly!!! I also think it a little unfair on a public forum that you identify him by name and appointment, particularly as you insinuate that he was an idiot. A bit of discretionary editing might be appropriate. You say you live in Bangkok which amazes me even more that you delt with the situation as you did. I hope you dont deal with the Thais you work with like that. Don't be suprised the next time you try to get your cheap flight with NOK the 'computer says noo'.

[Bushfiva]

On my very rare visits to the cockpit, alas unlikely to happen again, I've absolutely loved it, and for one main reason: the astonishing quality of the view. Good glass. I remember a flight down to Honk Kong, flying above an electrical storm for hours, with black sky and stars above. I've sometimes thought you could charge a couple of passengers a lot of money on a 747 if the forward locker was replaced with a seat, a curtain behind an good glass in front. I've been flying for 30 years and I still have my nose pressed against the window. I've marked changes in river course with the seasons over Siberia, had a very, very kind guy change course slightly so I could see a comet, and generally loved my time in 1A or 1J on 747s.

[CDRW]

My two cents worth and some drivle. Has this "security" issue not gone totally out of control - from the screening after immigration and what you can and cannot take on board to this secure flight deck issue!!

Alot of posts about impressing the youngsters but this is what happened to me.

I can remember doing a flight into Kai Tack a few years ago - well quite a few years ago - and during the cruise we had the usual load of visitors peering into the flight deck and asking the usual questions. At the back of the group was this elderly man, and as the youngsters cleared out, he came up and started asking questions to do with the IGS, the chequer (sp?) boards, the final turn. I asked if he was a pilot and he said he wasn't, but loved flying. Medically he could not be a pilot. So for his 65th birthday his wife had bought him and hour in a BA simulator (747 I think) and all he had done was "fly" the IGS into Hkg. And now here he was on a flight into Hkg, 3 months after his sim session. The inevitable question came, and I think he knew he was asking alot, but he asked if there was any way he could sit in the flight deck for landing. The FO winked at me, and the look on his face when I said yes was worth a million dollars. Never got his name, and I would think he may well be flying his 747 for the almighty, but I will always remember him.

[swordsman]

I suspect Despeque is a pilot for Air France who have different rules to those of British carriers.

[TDK mk2]

It's my opinion that visits to the flight deck are at the discretion of the captain, but I would take into consideration the following:

1. The crew. Obviously everyone has to be in agreement and that includes the cabin

2. The company. Most companies in the U.K. will specifically preclude anyone in the flight deck except those specifically allowed by U.K. legislation enforced by the DfT. But in our company I suspect that is to expunge themselves from responsibility if someone is caught by the authority, i.e. the DfT.

3. The DfT. This is where a good working relationship with your ground handling staff comes in useful. There's usually intelligence regarding DfT activities and it's in the interest of handling staff to have it.

4. The passengers. It's folk like Mr takemehome who believe it is their business to monitor that which isn't and could decide to report their observations to other interested partys. I suspect that is why the Vice President Flight Crew Training of Nok Air was so friendly toward our contributor in an attempt to disuade him from taking the matter any further.

I would advise employing sensible procedures such as preboarding your special guest and getting them settled in the flight deck wearing a high visibility vest and then keeping the door closed as much as possible. They can then leave when deplanning is complete or nearly complete and most passengers will be completely oblivious. Obviously this doesn't cover the ad hoc situation.

One should also be aware that should the DfT catch you red handed with unauthorised personel in the flight deck they could (I understand) seek a criminal conviction which would then (again I understand) preclude you from holding an airside pass. So be sensible, and I'll leave that to your interpretation...

[swordsman]

TDK there are rules laid down by the DOT as who can travel on the jump seat.The cabin crew have no say in the matter only the Captain.This extends to jump seats in the cabin.Rest seats (for the cabin crew) are a seperate matter.

[Kurtz]

"I don't see why mil ATCO's can't have the same privileges as civilian ATCO's do. In my airline we have exchange liaison visits with the RAF where we get to have a go in one of their jets and they come with us on a long haul trip on the jump seat. It just requires a letter from the relevant person to approve the flight deck jump seat.
The same applies to civilian ATCO's who want to experience our job from the jump seat. They need to get in touch with the company and make the request. Probably has to go through your own management first though.
The more on the flight deck, the merrier, I say!"
Then 411A said I decide who enters the FD, and if I say 'no entry' it is enforced without fail.
OTOH, if I want a guest, he/she is allowed...period.
NO ONE tells 411A who is allowed on the FD, and THAT is the way it is...full stop.
Any questions?
Erm, you're both actually incorrect, (ie WRONG) and probably in breach of DfT direction 21, which is very specific. ATCOS, Civil/mil are NOT allowed for fam flights without CAA permission. (Can anyone HONESTLY suggest anything significant which could not be explored in a sim? If it were truly an operational request regarding a specific new piece of airspace, then a request would presumably be granted by the DfT/CAA because it would genuinely be operationally required.) Mil exchange flights as described by Dan are NOT allowed - at least in the way described, (us getting jollies in a Typhoon is OK).
Airline Managers are NOT routinely allowed onto Flight Decks - for example Richard Branson was famously refused permission to do this a couple of years ago. A Captain may prohibit whomsoever he wants, but he cannot legally allow Flight Deck Occupancy without reference to the rule book, and there are very few exceptions, basically it must refer to direct operational relevance, or be crew within the airline or group positioning when there is no cabin seat available. This latter applies to management also again only when no cabin seat is available.
We may not agree with the policy, but there is no point misleading people as to its content. It applies to ALL aircraft flying within UK airspace.
For those interested, the policy is aimed at reducing the total number of occasions when the door is opened for any reason at all. hence "nice to do" visits are a complete no-no. It is not aimed at upsetting people, although I do think sometimes that the opposition to the policy stems more from a reluctance to accept that wives/kids etc can no longer get a seat when the plane is full. Blame 9/11, and accept that once politicians and civil servants take a stance on Security, it takes a lot to persuade them to reverse a judgement. Additionally, anyone who has seen 'United 93' should squirm at the moments showing the Captain decide whether or not to open the Flight Deck door, and sympathise, and wonder whether a so-called 'blanket ban' might have made a difference.
I hate it too, I hate so much of the security regs and procedures, so much of the attitude one meets....I could go on. However, times have changed, and disliking something is no alternative to making a logical as opposed to an emotive or juvenile (411A;) ) case against it. I would, however, have expected a better informed quotation from Danny - unless he flies outwith the ICAO signatories most of the time.:=

[bear11]

I have a very simple view on this, and it has nothing to do with your rights as a Captain - if you have any business being there, you should be allowed in a controlled fashion (covers Danny's gripe) but be very discrete about it. If you don't, buy a flightsim, get over it and stay out - a cockpit is not for satisfying the curiosity of aerosexuals, it's a place of work. I-FORD is spot-on. Every other industry has over the years tightened up completely on access for legitimate reasons, and it has nothing to do with the Twin Towers - try walking up to any factory or office and asking to go in for a wander around, and neither equate to what could happen in a cockpit. The most you get now is an "open day", and half the time it's just a video rather than see the internals for yourself.

If 9/11 hadn't happened, there would still be no access to cockpits these days, mainly for insurance reasons.

[BALLSOUT]

I think you will find that it is mostly the UK and US registered airlines and aircraft that have a complete ban. Most other authorities have differing levels of restriction. My company allows staff, and also friends or family, if acompanied by staff member, to jump seat travel. pax visits to the flight deck are only allowed on the ground, pre and post flight. all at captains discretion. (Major european carrier)
Most other countries can also even trust the crew with such things as a bottle of water!

[takemehome]

Thanks Kurtz. Facts, not emotions, was what I was originally asking for, and though they don't necessarily relate to Thailand, your contribution helps me understand some of the official views of the industry.

I find some of the mild abuse and brush-offs to my story quite amusing, particulary those who think that passengers like myself are being nosey by concerning ourselves with what's going on up front.

As I see it, it's us nosey SLF who are more likely to assist Cabin Crew if ever then is another 9/11 attempt, heaven forbid, and when a sign on a door clearly says "Crew Only" it means just that, to us. After all, the sign isn't placed on a cockpit door for the benefit of the crew, is it?! None of us like the many layers of security being imposed on us but we recognise that it's in our best interests, until we see it being applied in a discretionary manner.

Most people I know take an interest these days in that door being opened, and who's going through it. And as we're the ones paying the bills I think we have an absolute right to have some interest in our safety and to raise questions when something is obviously in doubt (such as civilians walking through a "Crew Only" door).

That's not to say we think we're experts and are casting doubt on the Captain's authority or ability; but if I have passengers in my car and they are concerned at the speed I'm driving at, they too have a right to comment, don't you think?

Having said that, I realise that most contributors to this forum are passionate professionals, for whom I have utmost respect, and I completely understand the views expressed about the desire to have visitors in the cockpit just like the old days. Now, I'll take my leave and go back to being a silent observer. :ouch:

[DaveO'Leary]

I've always found that if you ask a hostie to page the f/d, ask if any pilots post on Pprune, one can get certain advantages. Try it. Doesn't always work, BA flight, the skipper had the desire to thump me (from past post) Thank God for the f/d door security.

[Shuwi]

Good evening,

For me, this is one major issue (not mentionned yet i think).
This author wrote 5 people in 734 cockpit...
As far as i know, there aren't enough jumpseats and oxygen masks in a 73S flight deck.

So, for me, yes it's definitely irresponsible, regarding his children's heath ! :ugh:

Cheers

[stator vane]

why blame the yanks for what the UK and other european CAAs legislated? and yes i am a yank. not by choice though. no one asked me where i wanted to be born. but i didn't have anything to do with your country's reaction to 9/11.
and a bit off the subject, but do you want to discuss your ATP test system and why we have to pay through the nose every 5 years to get a small book long licence!!!
who are you going to blame that on?
our company employees on blue tickets and their co-traveler can sit in the flight deck where i currently fly-UK based. anyone on my blue ticket-family, etc-can sit in the flight deck.

[TDK mk2]

Mr takemehome: you wouldn't be the gentleman who wrote in after a flight with our airline to report that the cabin crew hadn't asked him to confirm the identity of his bag in the overhead locker on a transit turnaround, as they are required to do by the DfT, are you??

[Re-Heat]

takemehome - you were neither the pilot, nor in receipt of the full facts & rules. Raising a valid concern is fine, but we can't be jumped-up if there is no reason to be so.

I spent whole flights in the flight deck as a fascinated pre-teen in the 80s until an adult pre-9/11 - if I were ever a distraction I would have been asked to leave. Fact is that it is not your decision to make, and the professionals in front will know if and when to make such a decision.

Is flight deck access restricted in Thai-registered aircraft? I don't know, but if the rules are the same as UK/US, clearly they are acting inappropriately.

I don't think it is appropriate for you to raise such suspicion and type someone's real name if you don't know the exact rules yourself.

[Hogg]

And the problem is???????????????????????
So is a kid a terro threat.... or is he carrying a little bottle of water..... jesus wots in the comic.
Come on if we cant take kids in the cockpit......had mine there quite regular from young age to now 18, shes now doing atp studies, u wanna let terros win??
To me paxs do and can go sooo overboard. Time to let kids in again me thinks along with the nice mums ha ha.
Id never have bothered with being interested in this job/career/nightmare/ wotever only for a transasian B707 skip who let me in jumpseat at 12 to agp and montana B707 capt who taught me the radio on way back.... Learned lots, was 12 and i would luv to do same again other way around.
Cant see a locked door policy would actually do nething. ..........It just gets in the way of alienation, loada b&****()() if u ask me

[MarlboroLite]

The good old days

Speaking as a SLF


1. Sitting on in the flight deck whilst doing the checker board approach into Kai Tak

2. Being up on the flight deck of a BA744 from WSSS to YSSY for 3 hours over the outback, whilst Capt and FO explained to me what all the different systems did and showing just how computerised it was

3. Being on the flightdeck of an Air France F28 landing into Toulouse

4. Kendall Airways Saab 340, they used the jump seat to carry an extra pax from Melbourne to Devonport....being handed a set of DC headsets and allowed to listen on the 1hour flight

5. Sat on the flight deck of a BA742 from San Francisco to Heathrow, extra special because the plane was named after my home city..."City of Peterborough"

6. Flying on numerous Britannia 732s and visiting the flight deck whilst getting the capts signiture in your young flyers log book

7. Being allowed to visit a Dan-Air 727 flight deck (i believe the Capts name was Rolf Harris?)


Magical memories from my childhood/teen years, just a shame we now live in a society that promotes fear, and knowing that my children (when i have them) will never be able to experiance what i did:\

[stilton]

A previous poster raised a significant point.
Under Thai Civil aviation rules are visits to the flight deck allowed ?
There may be no prohibition.

In any case, who does this ignorant ****** think he is, questioning the Captains authority.

I think that HE presented more of a security issue than a visit to the flight deck by family members.

As another poster mentioned, do we let the terrorists win and live in whimpering fear ?

Ridiculous, the Captain had every right to bring anyone he liked onto HIS flight deck and good on him for bringing those youngsters up, I'll bet they enjoyed every minute.

Like many other posters, my first real exposure to this business was in the jumpseat of a Cathay Pacific 707 behind my father around SE asia, and later in the amazing L1011.

It sparked an interest in aviation that has never dwindled.
I am a Captain for a major US airline now, flying the 757 /767 and despise the idiotic rules we have to put up with, invented by ignorant bureaucrats, but thats the way it goes, here in the 'land of the free'

I am glad to hear there are those still allowed to use discretion in the world of aviation.

'take me home' You might like to think of yourself as a do-gooder aviation policeman, but what you really displayed was unbelievable arrogance, ignorance and an attitude, that if diplayed in my aircraft would have resulted in you being removed from the aircraft.

[Tigs2]

Takemehome

I asked once nicely and you haven't done anything, so i will ask again. It is unfair to have the name and position of the person involved on a public forum:= := . PLEASE REMOVE his name and appointment from your first post.

Mods please note

Thank you

[411A]

<<Erm, you're both actually incorrect, (ie WRONG) and probably in breach of DfT direction 21, which is very specific.>>

Sorry, Kurtz, you are quite mistaken.
The areas in which I operate, and the registration/AOC operated under absolutely DO allow the Captain to decide, DfT direction 21, nothwithstanding.

Some might be surprised to learn that the airline world does not begin and end with the United Kingdom.:bored:

[gengis]

Takemehome: "I told him straight out that I thought he'd acted irresponsibly,"

If i had it my way, idiots like you would be on a no-fly list as being, next to terrorists, the next greatest threat to an airplane. What is your knowledge, expertise or experience to decide that he acted irresponsibly? CNN? BBC? You buy a ticket which entitles you to a seat to get taken from A-to-B. You do not get entitlement to question how someone else - who does have that expertise - does it. Don't like it? Swim/bike or walk there yourself.

[Dream Land]

I am glad to hear there are those still allowed to use discretion in the world of aviation.
'take me home' You might like to think of yourself as a do-gooder aviation policeman, but what you really displayed was unbelievable arrogance, ignorance and an attitude, that if diplayed in my aircraft would have resulted in you being removed from the aircraft Couldn't have said it better !

[Taildragger67]

The US has had a sterile flight deck policy for decades. It didn't prevent four hijacks in one day in 2001. Lack of security on the ground let those blokes (and there were NINETEEN of them) get on.

Much of the civilised world, on the other hand, didn't have such blanket rules prior to September 2001 and we managed to operate safely up to, on and after that date.

There are still some places where it's allowed - just ask the cabin crew chief nicely when you step aboard, explain your link to aviation and if it's not banned by the airline's country, in my experience crew pretty much always pass the request onto the Boss and let him/her make the call.

As it should be.

[fat_jimmy]

Gengis I couldn't agree more.
Takemehome you sum up everything that is wrong with commercial aviation and unfortunatly this website too..Too many nosey do gooder passengers who don't have a clue what they are talking about (exept what they have learned on flight sim of course) thinking that they know it all.Do the professionals a favor (for whome this website was designed for originally)and p@ss off and leave us to do our jobs in peace ....We are capable and we are trying not to kill you so sit back ,read the Daily Mail and mind your own buisness!!!!!!

P.S. Kurtz get a life your post sent me to sleep try and read something other than a manual from time to time!!!!!!!!!!

[what next]

Hello!

> fat_jimmy: We are capable and we are trying not to kill you so sit back ,
> read the Daily Mail and mind your own buisness!!!!!!

Or better: Come up front and have a litte chat with us in the cockpit :)
(which, in the case of the aircraft that I fly isn't separated from the cabin anyway - according to the theory of the thread opener we probably shouldn't be allowed to fly at all...)

Greeting, Max

NB: Lateley, I've done mostly express freight and really miss chatting with the guests, the stupid boxes won't talk to me!

[Taildragger67]

Jimmy,

Chill pill old son. You might also like to reflect that this website generally tries to respect a bit of decorum.

Takemehome's original question was a fair one. Whilst I think most posters in the thread disagree with him "taking affairs into his own hands" here, it's also reasonable to argue that interested punters can be a help: if the lady who noticed the cracks when boarding the Aloha 737 had piped up, the Maui Convertible might not have flown; if an interested punter had voiced concern about ice on the wings, the Air Florida 737 might not have crashed at Reagan National; since Sep. '01, there have been a few wound-up miscreants detained (at least in part) by other punters in-flight.

The art, my friend, may lie in being able to determine if someone is doing something which is actually dangerous to flight safety (eg. running towards the FD) and not (such as calmly being ushered into the FD with one's children). Some of us have that ability, some of us do not, but these days I'd prefer to err on the cautious side. Who knows if that non-flying pilot had the same things in mind as some other RPT pilots have been believed to have had in recent years? I agree that TMH's views don't count at all in the operation of the flight, but he's entitled to his views and to put them to the PIC. Were I the PIC in that situation, I'd have replied that when I sign the maint release, it's my a/c and within the law, on board my word IS law and that whilst I appreciate having vigilant passengers aboard, I knew the guy, appraised the situation from a flight-safety aspect and decided on an appropriate course of action.

Blasting away with such invective does nought to further your argument, mate. As SLF, I know that the pilot cannot have his/her own eyes over all of the airframe, so if I see something I consider amiss, I will share my thoughts with the crew. Just like you would, if you (for example) saw a light not working on a mate's car. I would expect cabin crew to pass my comments to the FD - there have been crashes where such information didn't reach the FD, with catastrophic results.

TMH simply asked what the protocol is. The answer to that question is: "there is no single international proticol; it varies amongst countries and carriers. If you want to know what the situation is on your flight, ask when you board".

[SLFguy]

Whoa fat jimmy...who p*ssed in your pot plant this morning...?

[Jools66]

From my point of view as a humble passenger and desperate wannabee, I was recently allowed into the cockpit of a 737 after it had landed at Malaga. I´d been back to UK to check out flight schools for myself and my daughter and this experience just topped off the whole weekend. We´re now even more passionate and, yes, desperate, to fly and should those wonderful pilots be reading this, our sincerest thanks! Next time can we come up there during landing and/or take off? Is this ever allowed these days?

[Flying Lawyer]

taildragger67

If TMH had "simply asked what the protocol is", I doubt if he'd have got the same reactions. "are there any international rulings ...... or should I just put this down to idiocy"

IMHO his behaviour on board was bizarre, and didn't improve in the baggage hall.

MarlboroLite The good old days
Speaking as a SLF
1. Sitting on in the flight deck whilst doing the checker board approach into Kai Tak I'm green with envy.
I went into Kai Tak twice with Cathay, and was fortunate to be allowed the jumpseat of the L1011 both times.
But, sod's law, on both occasions, we landed on 31. :{



I've never understood the logic for changing the rules as a result of 9/11 when, even before that, the FAA didn't allow pax in the cockpit during flight and the rule didn't prevent the atrocities.
Has there ever been an incident where a hijacker got into the cockpit by posing as an aviation enthusiast?


FL

[Few Cloudy]

The original post and subsequent one by the same author show:

Thirst for knowledge - "are there rules?"
Interest in flying - "I did it and it piqued my interest"
and predudice - "I told him I thought he acted irresponsibly"

You can't have it all ways!

FC.

[Re-Heat]

to check out flight schools for myself and my daughter
Interesting...two generations training together?!

[ACARS]

A certain Irish airline let my 3 yr old sit in the first office seat (after landing) with his teddy bear. Seeing the joy on his face will be with me forever (my son, not the first officer!).

In 1999 I had over half a dozen jump seat rides in 737-200's whilst doing my PPL. It's unfortunate it can't happen anymore, but rules are rules.:{

[Tigs2]

Takemehome
Thank you very much:D :D :D ! No hard feelings! (Just got back to LHR from BKK)

[Mike Mercury]

One has to wonder how the SLF would vote with their feet and chequebooks if the ranters amongst us were forthcoming enough to confirm which airlines they work for. Personally whilst I dislike the DfT and DHS and TSA rules, we are where we are - abuse never solves anything and the point about pax getting involved is very well made. Just think what might not have happened at Kegworth if the pax observations to the Cabin Crew had actually been passed on - but they were pax after all, what did they know? And yes, I remember all the subsequent holdouts against CRM as well.
Actually naming people on here is not such a great idea, but really, a Senior Exec should not use his position and privilege to abuse rules and regs in such a way. Or, if he does, he should not be surprised in this day and age if people make an issue of it.
Perhaps those with such strong feelings should air them during their next PA - but they'll probably just sit there simmering, stressed out about the effrontery of the people who pay their wages. Pathetic.:yuk:

[gengis]

Mike Mercury: "One has to wonder how the SLF would vote with their feet and chequebooks "
This kind would actually cause an accident given enough time, so if they wanna fly elsewhere, go for it. Let them endanger someone else's airline. If you think this is a rant, let me give you another example of some of these foolhardy twits who read a little and think that their ticket gives them right to do & say whatever they want:
Soon after the Iraq war, i flew from, SE Asia to Europe. The route was via Iran & Turkey - Saveh/Shiraz/Tabriz. Approaching the Ankara FIR, i was informed that a pax was giving the cabin crew grief because we were "flying near Iraq, and what the **** we were doing there", because he had seen the progress of the flight on the airshow. I gave the cabin crew instructions to firmly advise him that this was the road today, and if he continued to cause ruckus, i would have him arrested upon arrival.
Well, some of you may think it funny for pax who think they are smart to go on like this, in the name of keeping their "buisiness". I'll say it again - their ticket price does not entitle them to behavior like this. It does entitle them to know one thing, and only one: they are coming along for the ride with me, and i don't intend to die. So long as i keep my a** safe, they'll be alright. If you want to welcome them into the Flight Planning, Dispatch or any other part of the flight operation, that's your call. Not on my watch. Next thing you'll get somebody wanting to know why you're at FL320 instead of FL310 as per Semi-circular rules (just because he/she has read a little bit). I am not inclined to explain RVSM or anything else.
In the case of this idiot Takemehome, he asked the reason why, was given one, and yet CONTINUED in his line of stupidity. That's what i mean by "fool".

[flyboyike]

We have become a sad, pathetic, frightened, species, terrified of our own shadows.



Amen to that!

[rmiller774]

Isn't it the VIP and the cabin crew who should be keeping their heads down until this blows over. If Flight Deck access laws or regulations were actually broken, I doubt that the authorities will simply turn away and look in some other direction. The Flight Deck group are the ones who are at risk. They could be shielded from further exposure if this thread were removed rather than to allow it to grind on and on, day after day. That step would also please those who wish to have the VIP's name removed.

[Jools66]

That´s right Re-Heat, Mum & Brat training together (I was a young mum!). Although not at the same school, apparently that would just be too embarrassing (her words not mine)! Flying an instructor friends Yaks at the moment but can´t wait to get my hands on something more powerful.

[Re-Heat]

Good on you!

[hawker750]

old chinese proverb comes to mind "Rules are for the guidance of the wise and for the blind obedience of fools". That proverb very apt in our profession but the rule makers are trying to take "Captains's discretion" away. Operational SOP's are a must but does there really have to be an SOP for every activity??
Might get a few replies here, I think

[merlinxx]

Why, the boss is the boss in his own aeroplane (funny spell check here doesn't like aeroplane!) A captain has the ultimate say, or so we are told over and above all else. SOPs are there to be adhered to, unless of course there is an operational deviation to be acted upon.

[G-Dawg]

We had a visit in the cockpit only 2 weeks ago, my capo didnt seem to mind at all, loved it should have seen the little guy, his eyes were like saucers. Was my first experience of this and Im glad i got to see it as i doubt i ever will again.....

[redsnail]

We don't have doors and our pax aka owners pop in for a visit often.

[Shamrogue]

Cockpits visits in the days when they could be done were almost like Catholics getting to meet the Pope. We didn't want to be pests but I remember getting a jump with FCA on a 757 to Malaga - well it was one of those "isn't life great" moments.
In every walk of life, we seem to be making rules to save idiots and these are takeing over our lives. We have to have rules, but this is like taking the milk out of ice cream because it'll make you fat.
For the few of you that still "allow it" - we'll always need rebels. Well Done.

For the rest of us I'll hang onto my PPL as long as I can - and will continue to potter along looking up at the contrails and the glints of sunshine shineing off the sides as you pass overhead.

Cheerio
Shamrogue.

And to the Captain of Concorde who let me in in March 99. Your picture is on the wall beside the family.

[Mike Mercury]

another example of some of these foolhardy twits who read a little and think that their ticket gives them right to do & say whatever they want:


Not much learnt from Kegworth then. Sad.

Rules...Wise Men...etc, however to assume that therefore all rules we don't like can be broken is an interesting concept. The diatribe regarding Flight Levels and paths is disingenuous and smacks again of "Count these bars", pity, I rather thought the majority of the Atlantic Barons had retired by now. Communication is a keynote of CRM, evidently not one that counts for a lot with gengis. The whole deal with the security issue that most of us dislike is the attitude of the Security personnel on the ground. You know, the ones that will only let you take one bag on board, the ones that make you leave your nailclippers before assuming command of 190+ tonnes of alloy, fuel and pax. They're the 'jobsworths' who increase our stress levels, and don't know what they're talking about, "Take off your shoes...AND your belt", yeah yeah we've all been there, but I am finally beginning to see the other side of the picture, the perception of the arrogant overpaid know-it-all pilot who believes he's above the rules. It's no wonder that some of the Security guys on the ground behave the way they do if they receive an attitude such as the one displayed by gengis and others on this thread.
Big picture people, see the big picture. I'd love to be able to take pax on the j/s, but the world has changed irrevocably and wearing tinted glasses and living in the past won't change that. A passenger concerned about the routing effectively gets told to shut up because the Captain knows better. I'm sure the Captain probably does, but do we REALLY think that's the best way to handle the situation? I wonder how many points such a display of authority would be awarded on a Command Course - would it enhance the passenger / cabin crew relationship? Would it reduce the possibility of air rage? Perhaps if they'd had a map on the Korean 747 someone might have noticed that that the USSR was getting a bit close, but doubtless the Captain would have "known better" then as well!

Hmmm.:\

[Kurtz]

idiots like you would be on a no-fly list as being, next to terrorists, the next greatest threat to an airplane.
Would it be asking too much to explain precisely how a concerned passenger can be a threat to an aeroplane, let alone the most significant threat to the aircraft after a terrorist? It is this sort of ridiculous hyperbole which devalues our profession. Given the reliability and accuracy of aeroplanes today and their on-board systems, it is a fact that most aircraft accidents are a direct result of a misjudgement from the Flight Deck. i.e. the Captain, the one with all the bars, the one pronouncing "not on my watch". He's the guy responsible for most disasters - maybe HE should be banned too!!! It would be hysterical were it not so pathetic. (How the hell you get three people into the space between the door and the centre console in a 738 without causing a Flight Safety hazard I cannot imagine.) MM, you are bang on the money :ok: ! I sincerely hope any SLF reading this thread consider carefully and continue to alert any member of my crew to ANYTHING they consider untoward. I hugely regret not being able to allow you onto the Flight Deck during the Flight, I hope you understand. However, feel free ALWAYS to ask the Purser for a visit after we've landed, and for as long as we both have time, you can come and visit. If you have a camera with you, you're welcome to get a pic of yourself and/or family in the drivers' seats if you so wish - no problem!!:)

[gengis]

Kurtz:

A concerned passenger may raise his concern, not push it even after it has been noted. When it crosses this line, he becomes a danger to the airplane. As to how much of a potential threat that 'concern' may actually be is not the passenger's call to make - it's yours, yes the one with all the bars, unless you didn't know that Kurtz? Why? Because you're the one who's supposedly got all the training, experience & facts at hand. Is this not so?

MM:

Kegworth/KAL may not have happened if someone raised concern. Communications. Agreed. Raised, not pushed. I trust you know the difference between the two (and by the way, in the case of the Iranian route, that pax was told to shut up because he was creating havoc in the cabin amongst other passengers as well which in the opinion of the cabin crew was threatening to turn ugly in spite of having been told that this was normal. You were not there, i was).

Back to the issue of the j/s - if the airline has an SOP or the country concerned has mandated a flight deck entry policy, then it is abided by. In this case, it appears that there was none, which made it the Capt's call - not the pax or even the SVP. Do you dispute this?

"The pilot-in-command is DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for, and the FINAL AUTHORITY as to, the operation of the airplane." - definition

For the most part, thankfully, passengers are not this obstinate/self-opinionated.

[Doug the Head]

Can't get a stupid bottle of water past security, can't let anyone except crew into the flight deck.

Why don't we all just admit it: the terrorists have WON!

[Kurtz]

Thanks for the explanation, at least now we can agree that a concerned passenger is not a threat. Good to see we can also agree communication is better than telling people to shut up!
With ref national requirements, well, if a country wishes to ignore ICAO and IATA, I suppose that's up to them. (I would imagine, however, that "in the subsequent inquiry" a Litigator would earn his crust enquiring why an operator and a Captain did not follow established "best practice". Equally, that 'get out' would not apply to an American or a JAR carrier, any more than the requirements which came out of the BA multiple deaths at the Manchester fire. Are you suggesting that because they might not be part of a National Authority's requirement that those requirements were therefore un-necessary or ridiculous also?
I would never dispute whether in the final analysis things are the Captain's call, however I remain unconvinced that three extra people on the Flight Deck of a Boeing 737 apart from the operating crew, (none of the extra people apparently in a j/s and using the excuse that one of them, [an unqualified aviation manager] was there in an official capacity) is anything but a hazard to Flight Safety. I suggest you refer to the AFM and the max Flight Deck occupancy section if you doubt me. This is just another step on the road to the Aeroflot Captain's son at the controls - clearly the Captain used his judgement and was:
DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for, and the FINAL AUTHORITY as to, the operation of the airplane on that occasion too. Tell me, did that make him right?:rolleyes:

[kchaudhry]

tricky issue. a lot of factors determine whether this should really be an issue or not. i ll jump straight to my experiences here in pakistan. getting into the cockpit is very easy ONLY if you are a cockpit crew ( doesnt matter if you are OFF DUTY) or you know the operating crew personally. but but if you arent either one of them, the probability of getting in is around 5-10 %( my own statistics over a period of around 2 years of frequent flying and as many requests for a cockpit visit ).

here according to the company rule, cockpit visits have been banned for all. but people get in regardless. so they are violating. but the law is not for every one. i mean either every should be allowed to visit or nobody. so there is a bit of law-breaking going on here. therefore, the chaps in the western countries are far more professional in keeping the company rules intact and i think they must be appreciated. if the book says No. its No. For every one.

i personally agree with a lot of posters here that cockpit visits are a source of inspiration for the young. i , myself, got into this field just because of a merely "simple " ( at that time ) cockpit visit that later turned out to become my passion. so its a source of inspiration. why ? because i think its a relatively uncommon field. every one can drive a car. few can fly. you defy gravity. may be i am wrong. but i think they should have never become so difficult as they have these days.