CRI and microlights - escape CPL?

[xrayalpha]

Hi,

This was put to me.

Train a potential light aircraft pilot in a three-axis microlight - Ikarus or Eurostar. Use a microlight instructor from an unlicensed airfield.

Then, post NPPL issue, do three hours with a Class Rating Instructor (since the student now has an NPPL) on a light aircraft Ikarus or Eurostar, and so get a NPPL (SSEA) without any instructor having a CPL or using a licensed airfield.

Ideas?

To declare an interest, I do own an unlicensed airfield and an Ikarus and have a microlight school.

Personally, I think the Ikarus is a Sportflight aircraft and not what I would call a microlight. It is also not what I would call a typical flying school light aircraft. (I used "flying school" light aircraft because PFA two seaters have similar performance.)

I wonder if the above will be the outcome of the new NPPL changes planned. A back door way of training from unlicenced fields?

Very best wishes,

[BEagle]

Partly correct - except that the training towards the SSEA Rating would need to be conducted on a SEP Class aeroplane with a Public Transport (or whatever the Euroword is) CofA from a licensed or government aerodrome.

Also you could not receive remuneration as a CRI unless you held a CPL.

[ifitaintboeing]

Partly correct - except that the training towards the SSEA Rating would need to be conducted on a SEP Class aeroplane with a Public Transport (or whatever the Euroword is) CofA from a licensed or government aerodrome.

Not if you own it....Also, flying in a 3-axis microlight counts towards the totals required for the issue of a NPPL(SSEA). All of the info you need is on the NPPL website.

http://www.nppl.uk.com

The info about converting from NPPL (Microlight) to NPPL (SSEA) is here:

http://www.nppl.uk.com/documents/NPPLXCREV061.pdf

The training could be done, as you say - xrayalpha, but from a LICENSED airfield ONLY for the SSEA flying. The flying is a MINIMUM of 3 more hours (1 hr instrument appreciation / 2 hrs Stall/Spin Training) PLUS tests. Also, to do the NPPL (SSEA) section in a Eurostar or similar, they would have to be a sole owner of the aircraft, since it is on a Permit to Fly as a SSEA; it is fairly simple to arrange to learn to fly in a permit aircraft. Contact the PFA coaching scheme for advice.

To do paid instructing (i.e. someone paying the dual rate) in an SSEA, whether the instructor is paid or not, still requires a commercial licence. For a non-CPL to instruct (CRI or instructor), the flying instructing must be unpaid. There are proposals for this to change, but not yet.

Additionally, to obtain an NPPL (SSEA) would still require a total of 32 hours flying for initial issue - a combination of microlight and SSEA flying. Since the costs of operating are the same, there is little saving. My advice would be to go for the licence you ultimately want.

Regards,

ifitaint....

[BEagle]

The current version is actually http://www.nppl.uk.com/documents/NPPLXCREV063_000.pdf

REV07 is in draft; I will release it when the ANO changes become law.

There are indeed changes being proposed for NPPL (SSEA) instructor requirements, but it is very unlikely that there will be any changes this year.

[xrayalpha]

So,

As I understand it - and this is from a potential operator of a light aircraft flying school hat, not as a potential student - someone can do their NPPL microlight in 25 hours (and pay the hourly instruction rate). This is all looking at legal minimums, rather than practical ones.

Then they would have to have more instruction to get to 32 hours (in microlights or light aircraft. If in microlights, could be mountain flying, advanced navigation etc etc and so the school could charge.)

Then there are three hours in light aircraft. And if using an Ikarus or Eurostar, the performance and controls are identical between micro and light varieties.

These three hours must involve the lesson starting and ending at a licensed airfield and a light aircraft instructor who can only be paid if he'she has a CPL and the permit-to-fly aircraft is solely owned.

So why would anyone want a CRI if they can't get paid? And how are PFA coaches allowed to get paid, if I understand right?

Now, if one wanted to stretch the rules, one could be a PPL with a microlight instructors rating and a CRI. If one then took cash off the student for microlight training for 40-50-odd hours and then offered to give them - free-of-charge, not even something for the petrol - 181 minutes of further flying in a light aircraft from the local licensed field, then that would be legal.

Since some schools give a 10 per cent discount for paying in advance, if you didn't give the discount, but hinted that you might get some free flying, but with no promises, then it would be financially sound for the school.

It might be for the student too since costs are not the same. Flying from an unlicenced field like mine, for instance, is 200 pounds a year for as many landings as you want. At Perth it starts at 12 pounds per landing!

From talking to the CAA, this is how "clubs" offer flights in Chipmunks and Jet Provosts - stretching the rules by making sure the flight is not "guaranteed" and is instead just something that you might be offered as a member!

Finally, it is not that I plan to offer such a scheme, more that I want to be commercially aware of what any competitor could offer (since I have been approached by a light aircraft school wondering about operating from my field for some training to cut costs, except that they may try to look for another site etc etc.).

Very best to all

[ifitaintboeing]

xrayalpha,

You have asked a lot of questions in your post. I will try to answer them!

So why would anyone want a CRI if they can't get paid? And how are PFA coaches allowed to get paid, if I understand right?

Firstly, the PFA Coaching Scheme do not do any ab-initio training, and so would not undertake a Microlight to NPPL conversion. Any questions about the Pilot Coaching Scheme, PM me.

The minimum of 32 hours for an NPPL [SSEA] includes the 1 hour Instrument appreciation, 2 hours SSAT, and the NST/GST. So, most of the additional time over and above a NPPL [Microlight] would be used up with training/tests anyway. Please appreciate that these are minimum times required.

Now, if one wanted to stretch the rules, one could be a PPL with a microlight instructors rating and a CRI. If one then took cash off the student for microlight training for 40-50-odd hours and then offered to give them - free-of-charge, not even something for the petrol - 181 minutes of further flying in a light aircraft from the local licensed field, then that would be legal.

Yes, provided the student owns the aircraft or the aircraft is public transport, and the airfield is licensed. The CRI needs to be affiliated with a flying school also [change under JAR]. The student would still have to complete an NST/GST to complete the NPPL [SSEA] requirements.

since I have been approached by a light aircraft school wondering about operating from my field for some training to cut costs

You say your airfield is unlicensed. This would prohibit any ab-initio training at present. However, training for add on ratings like the IMC or Instructor Rating, or indeed Differences Training may be conducted from unlicensed airfields.

Regards,

ifitaint....

[xrayalpha]

Ifitaint wrote

>>Firstly, the PFA Coaching Scheme do not do any ab-initio training, and so would not undertake a Microlight to NPPL conversion. >>>>

Actually, it wouldn't be ab initio training since you get an NPPL, albeit (microlight).

On the other point, you can do ab initio traning on an unlicensed airfield for an NPPL (microlight). And, if I recall right, any hours flown on a microlight from an unlicensed airfield can count towards the 32 hours for a NPPL (SSEA), which does have to be finished from a licensed field.

However, NPPL training hours on a microlight from an unlicensed airfield used to gain a NPPL (SSEA) then do not count if going for an ICAO recognised license! But ones on a weightshift microlight from a licenced airfield do - or perhaps don't if flown in an evening after the published licensed hours end?

Complex, huh? Logical, eh?

Hence my inability to completely digest the ANO and Lasors to answer my own questions.

And my lack of knowledge of what is in the pipeline.

Very best, will PM you about PFA coaching for interest, although I am a weightshift man myself.

[Whopity]

You seem to have missed the point that a CRI is a JAA Instructor rating and is subject to the conditions stated in JAR-FCL 1.005(a) (2) Applicability of licences, ratings, authorisations and approvals. A CRI can only give instruction to a licence holder which must be a JAA licence not a sub-ICAO licence.

[BEagle]

Well, you're wrong on that one.

Several schools are using CRIs for the addition of SSEA Class Ratings to NPPL (Microlight) Ratings and this is known to your masters at the Authority, Whopity.

[ifitaintboeing]

Whopity,

A CRI is entitled to instruct as previously specified, for the NPPL Class Rating conversion from NPPL [Microlight] to NPPL [SSEA]. They cannot, however, instruct ab-initio. JAR 1.375 states a CRIs priviliges.

JAR FCL 1.005 (a) (2) states that the rating is issued in accordance with JAR, but does not limit it's use to solely within JAR.

Regards,

ifitaint...

[Whopity]

JAR-FCL 1.375
The privileges of the holder of a CRI(SPA) rating are to instruct licence holders for the issue of a type or class rating for single pilot aeroplanes.

JAR-FCL 1.005 (a) (2)
Whenever licences, ratings, authorisations, approvals or certrificates are mentioned in JAR-FCL, these are meant to be licences, ratings authorisations, approvals and certificates issued in accordance with JAR-FCL. In all other cases these documents are specified as eg ICAO or national licences.

Then where does it specify that a CRI may teach for a NPPL?

[ifitaintboeing]

Cap 393 - The ANO

It defines the NPPL [Microlight] as a Class Rating, and the NPPL [SSEA] as a Class Rating in Part B - Ratings and Qualifications. It also states:

Class rating instructor rating (single-pilot aeroplane) shall entitle the holder to instruct licence holders for the issue of a type or class rating for single-pilot aeroplanes.
Section 1 Schedule 8 Page 20

Since a NPPL [Microlight] pilot is, by definition, a licence holder, they require tuition on the [SSEA] class, hence require a CRI or greater.

The ANO covers both the JAR-FCL licence and the National licence.

You seem to have missed the point that a CRI is a JAA Instructor rating and is subject to the conditions stated in JAR-FCL 1.005(a) (2) Applicability of licences, ratings, authorisations and approvals. A CRI can only give instruction to a licence holder which must be a JAA licence not a sub-ICAO licence.

The FI rating is a JAR rating also, yet we are allowed to instruct for the NPPL. :)

Regards,

ifitaint...

[S-Works]

So on this basis, adding an SEP to a ML licence can the conversion be carried out from an unlicenced field?

[BEagle]

No.

IMC training, SLMG and Microlight training all have exemptions from the requirement that states that any training towards a licence or rating must be conducted from a licensed or government aerodrome. SEP and SSEA training does not.

But watch this space...........

[xrayalpha]

BEagle,

Is that true?

I understood that seaplane ratings on SSEA are carried out from unlicences airfields, as can taildragger conversions, aerobatic training etc?

To sum up again,

I can fly for a NPPL microlight from an unlicensed airfield and then change my mind and finish off with a CRI (or, indeed, a light aircraft instructor with CPL) for the final three hours to get a NPPL (SSEA), provided as always we meet the necessary hours minima. In fact, this appears to be already the case according to be a previous post.

The only question now is whether the hours with a CRI (or a light aircraft instructor with a CPL) need to be from a licensed airfield.

Many thanks for all your help - it really is good to see a proper debate which is clarifying all these points.

[BEagle]

I am not sure about how 'seaplane' ratings are conducted - but probably not from airfields of any type, I would think.

The other activities to whic you refer do not add 'Ratings' to a licence, so are exmept from any requirement to use a licensed or government aerodrome.

The ANO change will list those items for which 'differences training' is mandatory; to add Class Ratings to an existing NPPL will require 'conversion training', not 'differences' training. But any SSEA training for a Class Rating must be conducted from a licensed or government aerodrome..........at the moment.

[Pjbracer1]

Hi guys bit late in on this one but I am trying to get as much info as I can, Im after my PPL with a view to becoming and instructor later on and CPL to possibly move abroad and retire with a nice little flying number in the sun with little pay!

My local school have said the best route for me is NPPLM and then get some experience as a pilot and not just a license holder and then move up to the NPPLA and possibly on to PPL and further as he said that unless your pockets are deep GA is becoming difficult at main airports and it is cheaper gaining the experience and then uptrade, there is no point in paying the cash for a 4 seater PIPER or the likes until you need it.

I would appreciate your views on this as to if this is a good option, I wanna get in the air as soon as I can(used to fly with the old man in AA5 and Tobago 90 but he doesnt fly anymore due to cost etc.... and possibly being more tight in his old age)

Cheers appreciate the advice I know there is a stigma about microlights but if it is a good way to start without blowing too much cash then it will make her indoors a bit happier!

Cheers guys

Paul

[S-Works]

What I don't understand is how a CRI with an IRI can teach an IMC from an unlicenced airfield buit can't teach a night rating at all?

[Say again s l o w l y]

All seaplane trainers I know have got dispenstions to operate from Unlicenced areas. There aren't exactly many licenced bits of water nowadays.

Colin, just to let you know at Perth it is £12 a landing, but if you pay £200/year then that's it. Same as you!:p