19 to 33 seater turboprops

[royskaria]

Which are the suitable aircraft in the 19 to 33 seat range? Necessary parameters:
1. Range for 300nm missions fully loaded.
2. Ability to take off fully loaded from 4000ft runways, some at altitudes of 8800ft above MSL. high altitude operations not very important: some load restrictions fine in that case. But ability to operate from short runways at lower altitudes is a must.
3. Enclosed Lavatory (IMPORTANT)
5. Single FA (yes for 19 seat as well).
6. Galley with/without oven capable of handling atleast one round of box-meals/snacks. Hot-Jug ability would be a plus. (IMPORTANT: Indians love their food!)
7. MOST IMPORTANT: Currently in Production.
8. Min Baggage per passenger 15kg
9. reliability, sturdy, easy maintenance, good economics yada yada....

Single aircraft type upto 15 aircraft spread across 3 stations: Aircrafts are to fly missions linking Tier-3 and Tier-2 stations directly eliminating the need for stops at intermediate Tier-1/2 hub. Typical flight length 01:30.

Aircraft I can think of:
1. Dornier/HAL 228-212
2. Embraer 120
3. Saab 340B
4. Beechcraft 1900D


Your thoughts?

PS: How come there are so few good options in the 18 to 30 seat range? :ugh:

[Treetopflyer]

Hey royskaria

As far as I know, Saab SF340 and Beech 1900D are no longer produced.

The best aircraft I can think of that meets your requirements would be the DHC8-100 or -200.

Too bad you need the airplane to still be in production, as there are some potent used aircraft no longer produced on the market. And cheap, too.

TTF

[royskaria]

The Embraer 120 and B1900D are NOT in prodn? I can see the Embraer still listed on the company website!

Do the galleys on the E12) and DHC8-100/200 have ovens for hot meals? How many meals can be carried on the galleys in these?

[Treetopflyer]

Read again. EMB120 still in production, but Saab SF340 not. Beech 1900 definitely not produced anymore, check Raytheon's website.

No idea about the galley issue on the EMB120 and DHC8, I guess it is optional and I've never seen it. But the good thing about airplanes still in production is you can ask the manufacturer directly... :8

Btw, given your requirements: take full pax load with 15kg bags each, a toilet, a flight attendant and a galley, you can already rule out most 19-seater airplanes... They will be way over max zero fuel weight...

[royskaria]

oops! me bad! Sorry I misread!

That pretty much leaves the E120 as the only viable option in prodn at this time!

Any details/inside gossip on the performance, maintenance and economics of these aircraft?

[PaperTiger]

The Brasilia is nominally still in production; if you order one they'll build it for you but I believe it's several years since anybody did. Not surprising as there are scores of second-hand examples available.

[Cyrano]

royskaria: why is it so important that the aircraft is still in production? Why does that criterion win over - for example - lease cost, operating costs or reliability?

Yes, an in-production aircraft may be the ideal situation, but you'd be excluding several potentially good candidate aircraft by imposing that condition. Aircraft such as the B1900 and Saab 340 were popular enough, and enough are still in service, that they are still supported by their manufacturers, even though they're not in production. (In many cases, e.g. Saab 340 or Jetstream 41, the manufacturer owns a lot of the aircraft and leases them out, and therefore has a strong incentive to keep the type flying and supported.) I think where a greater support problem lies is in the case of aircraft whose original manufacturer is no longer around (e.g. Dornier 328).

Brgds
C.

[royskaria]

Name is roy!

Cyrano: you certainly have a point! The point behind stating the "currently in prodn" clause was to ensure continued support. Imagine starting off and then facing a situation of an aircraft lying around rustin in a corner for lack of spares etc.

Two queries at this point:

1. is it feasible to have these aircraft operate for upto 13 hours a day.
One plan would have upto 6 aircraft overnighting in 6 separate stations operating on round robin concept via a central hub where the 7th aircraft would be based as standby/maintenance reserve. The 6 aircraft would be operating betwwen 11 and 13 hours a day. Does this look feasible from a maintenance and operational perspective for an aircraft like the E120 or SF340?

2, Can we do a comparitive analysis between the E120 and the SF340B looking into the points mentioned in the first post as well as economics, comfort etc.

[crj705]

The Dornier 328 sounds like it would work for what you are looking for. The only prop that would outrun it was a saab 2000 or Q400 and by far the most comfortable and quiet ride you will get in a prop. I dont know if they are still in production though. I "herd" that part of the program was sold off to another company when Dornier had its financial problems.

[stankou]

Hi,

I have worked on Beech1900C/D for a long time, and I'm affraid you can remove that aircraft from your list for the following reasons:

1/The A/C is no more produced by Raytheon and there is no sound that will change shortly
2/On that A/C, the toilets are an option,and they are installed in the Cargo bay, so you cannot operate with 19 seats AND toilets. (the 19th seat is located at the last line of seats as a triple seat, and you have to install a hard partition with to separate cabin and cargo)
3/In case of you will operate with 18 seats and toilets, you must also install a partition ( either Hard or a crashnet) in the cargo bay witch cut the half of your cargo area.
4/ For your galley, you have to make a choice:
- A aft galley, located after the toilets, but but you have no more cargo bay ( but you can join a Beech200 just for the baggages :) )
- A forward galley, located instead of the normal wardrobe, located juste in front of the paxdoor, but that device is very heavy (150/160 lbs) and that could be a problem if you mix the MTOW and High and short Runway.
5/ The B1900D is equipped with Collins proline radio and nav system. Due to the type of operation with the Beech1900 ( short legs and a lot of switch "on" and "off" per day), the avionics systems suffering of that, and you must have a consequent avionics spare parts available. In fact, the Beech 1900 is a 19seats A/C but the maintenance cost is nearly the same that a 30/36 seats per flight hour.

The good thing is the very reliability of the PT6 engines, and the A/C is certified FAR and JAR 23 asa single pilot aircraft...
So I don't think that A/C is good for your kind of operation. :=

Salut

[Treetopflyer]

Totally agree that the 1900 will be over weight limits for the operations described. Also, a 30 seater will be only marginally more expensive to operate.

Stankou: just for the record... The 1900s which have a toilet (or a door leading to the aft compartment) can be equipped with 19 seats, with the forward wardrobe being converted into a side-facing seat... :8

A+

[royskaria]

I think i understand now why the 19-seater market has kinda died out: atleast the production part.

For a more airliner like experience, 30 seats would be a minimum. Unfortunately that rules out service to many of the stations since they wouldnt commercialy support anything larger than a 19 seater and a common fleet type is necessary to keep costs down.

[PaperTiger]

There are a couple of conversions of the Beech King Air. The Beech 1300 is a 13-seat version of the King Air 200, and the USAF uses a 15-seat King Air 350 (C-12S). Both basic airframes are still produced by Raytheon; I don't know who holds the STCs but Raytheon should know. Used B-1300s would be available.

[Capt Chambo]

The Shorts 360-300 ticks just about every one of your boxes, except it's no longer in production as far as I know.

[coolcaptain]

check out the let420.

http://www.let.cz/?sec=17

Or the Bombardier Q200 might fit the bill.

For the record, I flew a 1900D with 19 seats and a toilet in the front.

[AtoBsafely]

I think the Dash 8-200 might be a very good option. I've flown the other dashs, and I think you would find it very reliable and economical. I am not sure of the specific galley etc, but I believe it could haul 37 pax within your requirements.

[lotman1000]

The Shorts 360-300 ticks just about every one of your boxes, except it's no longer in production as far as I know.

If you're a start-up without bottomless pockets, a search for good 360's could pay off well. Reliable, cheap, pax-friendly, and - I would imagine - there's still a qualified pilot and engineer pool. I'll take Capt Chambo's word that it satisfies your performance needs; I haven't done the sums.

I would advise avoiding old and small Dash 8s like the plague. Could be a maintenance and parts nightmare.