Looking for a long-range a/c

[Pilocol]

Hey Guys ...
May be you can give me a word of advise.
My boss is looking to buy a bird that can make Riyadh to Boston (non-stop) :E with at least 8 pax. Now we operate a 900 but the stoping in London all the time is getting to him. We will be doing this leg once a month, so a confortable bird (For pax and CREW) will be the requirement ...
Looking in to GLX, G-550 and Some of the Boeings.
For comfort I have suggested the 757 .. any coments or ideas are very welcome ..
Keep it safe :)
Pilocol

[mutt]

What about a 767-200? 1 available in Europe in VIP configuration, 757's are harder to find.

Mutt

[Pilocol]

Will tell the boss about it .:hmm: . and keep my hopes high ...:}

Thanks ... and if anybody has a contact ... I will be greatfull ..;)

[mutt]

Sorry, gave you a bum steer... just got told that the VIP 767-200 has a 4200 nms range so it wont make Boston....

Mutt

[compressor stall]

ACJ? Plenty of room to spare then! Should do the 5507nm comfortably.

[Pilocol]

Witch one?? ...319?? Remember we need a lot of room ... bags and maids and kids and ...well you know ... plus rest area for the Bus drivers ... will it make it??

I just don't want to go to the head man 2 years from now and have to tell him "Sorry no more than 5 pax and 5 medium bags":E
Then there is the 50 :mad: degrees in Summer out of the Sand Pit ... to go that Long???

Hey Mutt, no problemo ... just found out myself it is not an ER...

Still looking ... see you around ...:cool:

Keep it safe ...

[FLEXJET]

AVPRO is offering one of GE's BBJs for sale.
The one featured has 17 seats, 6 tanks, with provision for a seventh, so it may match your requirements (with 5 tanks you have a range of 5'500NM).

http://www.avprojets.com/detail.php?planeID=92

[g4phil]

Gulfstream G550 (Gulfstream V)
Range 6,750 miles
passengers 14-18
Speed: Mach 0.88
List Price $46 million

Boeing Business Jet (based on Boeing 737)
Range 6,800 miles
passengers 25 (up to 50 depending on seat configuration)
Speed: Mach 0.82
List Price $48 million

Airbus A319CJ (Airbus A319 with extra fuel tanks)
Range 6,500 miles
passengers 25
Speed: Mach 0.85
List Price $45 million

Bombardier Global Express XRS
Range 6,150 miles
passengers 19 max
Speed: Mach 0.89
List Price $46 million

Alternatively it is possible to buy an even larger plane such as a used Boeing 767 which can be re-fitted to your precise specification. In fact, in 2007 Boeing will replace the 737 based BBJ by the Boeing 767-300ER, which will have 50 flat seats as standard.

[bogeydope]

Pilocol,
If you operate out of RUH now, you should talk to some of the operators with the various aircraft there.
A BBJ with even 9 tanks will not make that distance against the winds with that kind of payload.......

[Pilocol]

Hey Guys thank for all the comments...

bogeydope . thaks, I have done that and most of the operators say the same as all of you... I even think that the 73-700 will not make it with the amount of people and bags that we need.

g4phil. Good group of planes, 2 days ago I was in the back of the plane talking to the boss about all of them ... specially the Global ... he likes that one ... and I do too.

Thanks for the link (flexjet) will look in to it.

Still think that for that kinda trip will go 75 or 76 ... lots of room and operation is not that much higher that a 73 ... remember we will do long, long legs ... at least most of the time...

Thanks again ... and ... I will keep looking and listening to all of you..:ok:

Pilocol

[bogeydope]

A 762 will be your best aircraft I think. Put some aux tanks in it and you can go non-stop RUH-LAX......

Don't agree with your operating cost assesment of a BBJ vs 76, but for the difference in purchase price you can buy a lot of gas and parts....

Both are good aircraft and fun to fly!!

[mutt]

FLEXJET

Regardless of what the website says, i believe that aircraft was sold in March.

Pilocol.

There is a VVIP 747SP for sale @ $20m.... Alternatively, the Oger B777 @ $120.

Mutt

[merlinxx]

Suggest you give the guys over at ARAMCO Flt Dept a bell, they've being doing the DHA/HOU route for a very long time. They have obviously done all the eval work, no need to do it all again. Good luck.

[Global Warrior]

Just a thought but would an A320 with extra fuel tanks do it. I gather Cyprus Airways has one for sale. Its probably a high cycle machine but you could probably customise the layout and interior to your spec and have it NOW.

Im not really a long haul fan but if i were to do it i think i would prefer to NOT have a bl**dy great yoke sitting in front of me for all that time.

As an aside do you currently go to any airports where ex-airliners are too big? i guess that could have some bearing on any decision making.

GW

[Pilocol]

Well lots of input ... Nice.
Thank you all for the words of advise.
Global Warrior ... great idea not having a big yoke infront of you all the time ...I will give this idea a thought ...

We operate big airports all the time ... to be honest with you guys, the shortest field we went to was Siegerland, but only because we did not get a place in FRA cause of the World Cup, and this is not going to appen again.

The shortest field that we operate in LUT (EGGW) .. and 75's and 76's operate there all the time, so anything else will do.

Talked to the boss again and he is on the idea of a big bird no matter the time as long as is well kept ... now .. the question will be Boeing or Airbus ..
Oh God I just started a big mess:E

Keep it safe.

Pilocol:cool:

[mutt]

The next question is do you want it now or in 2008/09?

There is a severe lack of mod shop availability, so even if you get a passenger Boeing, it will take over a year to modify it.

The only VIP A340 that was available has just become HZ-HMS.

The 767 VP-CME is back on the market but it would need additional tanks installed to satisfy your requirement.

The Oger 777 is still advertised on the net for sale.

Enjoy yourself :)

Mutt

[Pilocol]

Well boss already knows about the time for the refurb, so I will let him kow about the ones available now and we'll see ... hope for the best ...Wooo 777 :cool:
Thanks Mutt .. good info .

Pilocol:ok:

[g4phil]

Pls check your PM's

Phil

[Opslackey]

Did these during a quiet moment on a super duper planning tool. These used historical weather records for July and calculated to give the max available payload (AV PLD) for this distance and these weather conditions
G550 OERK-KBOS (M80)
FUEL TIME DIST ARRIVE TAKEOFF LAND AV PLD OPNLWT
POA KBOS 034449 12/33 5648 1233Z 091000 056551 005310 048000
ALT KPSM 000459 00/09 0044 1243Z
HLD 001060 00/30
RES 001722 00/49
XTR 000000 00/00
TXI 000000
TOT 037690 14/02

GLEX OERK-KBOS (M80)
FUEL TIME DIST ARRIVE TAKEOFF LAND AV PLD OPNLWT
POA KBOS 039656 12/30 5648 1230Z 098000 058344 005980 048600
ALT KPSM 000531 00/09 0044 1239Z
HLD 001250 00/30
RES 001983 00/48
XTR 000000 00/00
TXI 000000
TOT 043420 13/57

Neither the BBJ or A3CJ are making it with the standard fuel capacitys of
72200 & 42000 Lbs respectivley

[anthonyjohnson]

hi guys any one got a contact for a long range BBJ for sale (7 8 9 tank fit)
tony

[EMB170]

Pilocol,

We have done some research including , G550,GLEX,BBJ,ACJ .
You say you always carry a lot of luggage, so in my opinion you can forget
G550,GLEX and BBJ1(got the bigger range but smaller than BBJ2). BBJ1 uses most of it's cargo area for additional fuel tanks.

regards

EMB170

[Pilocol]

Hi EMB170.
Found out the hard way.
Have been bombarded with info about all those planes for the past 3 weeks, and came to the same conclusion.
Definetly looking for a 75 or a 76 both of them ER... will see what we can get, mean while I think it will be best to stop in the midle and change crew, OERK-KBOS is a little too long for two guys only ...

Thanks for the info..

Keep it safe:cool:

Pilocol

[TWIN BOY]

Why do you want to stop to change crew?

Carry a "heavy crew" and just change seats!

You could fly non stop around the world in a A345 or 346 with your payload. Airbus are falling over themselves to give them away.

[chornedsnorkack]

You could fly non stop around the world in a A345 or 346 with your payload.

You could not. The ranges are still under 20 000 km.

Does the wingspan category matter?

757-200 is popular for VIP conversions, with long range - including VC-32. 767-200ER with extra fuel tanks is a logical choice for a small widebody. And for a long-range small widebody only recently out of production, do not forget A310, either.

747SP, 777, A330 and A340 are in the 60 m wingspan category. Which may matter.

And with the range of A310 or B767-200ER, you may not need 7 pilots as the Worldliner record flight carried... 3 or 4 pilots means 1 or 2 in crew rest at any time.

[TWIN BOY]

Tonque in cheek...or...figure of speach chornedsnorkack (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=117795) vbmenu_register("postmenu_3276244", true);

Mind you, I regularly fly 14+ trips on a 345 with full payload and that feels like a bloody long way.

With a lighter load it will go for 18hours. Is that long enough for you ?

[Harburn]

I would suggest the G550 rather than the Global Express, which I hear is not very reliable.

[anthonyjohnson]

VIP 747-SP avail in the UAE for sale great condition

[chornedsnorkack]

Mind you, I regularly fly 14+ trips on a 345 with full payload and that feels like a bloody long way.

With a lighter load it will go for 18hours. Is that long enough for you ?

For what purpose? Certainly, few customers need more... One thing which people are trying hard to do, and cannot, is find a plane capable of flying from Sydney to London, reliably, with a commercial payload.

What is the endurance of 4 pilots? And how many are needed for longer flights - 5? 6?

[Pilocol]

Well I guess the wing span really matters, but ... we can always go to other airports ... anyway we always go to big ones ..

I'm leaning in to telling him to go for a slightly smaller one and just stop in the middle and change the crew, it really sounds better than just keep going forever. A regular 75 will do the job just fine and it will make him look good too. (It's all about looking good)

I just talked to him about the 777 that is for sale and he said he knows the guys and they are asking too much for it ...
The 340 that I saw is great, and will take about 1 year to be done .. so .. time to talk to the boss again.

Lets see how this will end, he still is pushing for the BBJ knowing it will not make it ...

Appreciate all the coments and PM's ... I try to answer them all ... but still have to fly most of the time ... forgive me if I take longer than normal ..

Thanks to all of you for the info, now I have a more clear picture of this Long Haul :} stuff.

Keep it safe ..

Pilocol:cool:

[mutt]

Lets see how this will end, he still is pushing for the BBJ knowing it will not make it ...

Are you sure it wont make it? The problem really is how luggage does to want to carry?

Mutt

[chornedsnorkack]

Well I guess the wing span really matters, but ... we can always go to other airports ... anyway we always go to big ones ..

Turns out it is connected to weight as well.

A330, B777-200 and others have MTOW of 230+ tons. A310 and B767 are in 164...179 ton range.

Which may affect trip costs, airport charges etc. etc.

I'm leaning in to telling him to go for a slightly smaller one and just stop in the middle and change the crew, it really sounds better than just keep going forever. A regular 75 will do the job just fine and it will make him look good too. (It's all about looking good)
A regular 757-200 has nominal range of 7200 km - with commercial payload and without extra tanks. Which means slightly over 8 hours endurance. You still have to carry extra crew and have crew rest - and in 757-200, hopefully there is space for it.

And in 767-200ER, too.

[Pilocol]

You are right chornedsnorkack, did not think about it ... better to go for a lighter one ..good point....
About the 757-200 I think we will go for it, and just send second crew to mid point 2 days in advance and change there, will do the same on the way back..instead of carrying duble crew onboard all the time ...

About the BBJ, still I'm not sure if we can actualy carry more than a cuple of little bags. The guy at Boing is working on it ... and at the end it will be much cheaper to get a used 75 and more room ... I will keep you guys informed on the result depending on todays meeting ... wish me luck.

Keep it safe

Pilocol:cool:

[chornedsnorkack]

About the 757-200 I think we will go for it, and just send second crew to mid point 2 days in advance and change there, will do the same on the way back..instead of carrying duble crew onboard all the time ...

About the BBJ, still I'm not sure if we can actualy carry more than a cuple of little bags. The guy at Boing is working on it ... and at the end it will be much cheaper to get a used 75 and more room

From
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/05/15/213806/low-risk-thinking-business-aviation.html
"The first available slot for either the BBJ, BBJ2 or BBJ3 is 2011." Hill says Boeing is continuing to look at the BBJC, which has a side cargo door, following strong interest from governments. But launch of the 737-600, a direct competitor to the Airbus A318 Elite, is unlikely for the time being, he says, due to the lack of production slots. "We are having to turn away sales," says Hill.

Nearly half the aircraft sold by Boeing last year were widebodies, including the 747-8 and 787-8/9, mainly to customers seeking to upgrade ageing 747s. "We have seven orders for the 787-8/9 and have sold out until 2014.

So... no new build slots for BBJ.

If used 757 has sufficient range and room, it does everything that BBJ could, and more.

Just how specific are the requirements for a crew rest, anyway?

Compare what can be done on a 707-330:
http://www.humesmccoyaviation.com/pages/aircraft/vip_707_18928.html
counting up to fourth bedroom. If you have children and nannies... can a crew rest be given to passengers when not needed?

[mutt]

So... no new build slots for BBJ.

This is certainly reflected in the 2nd hand market prices, similiar aircraft now cost $5m more than at the start of the year!

Mutt

[anthonyjohnson]

Hi Guys

One bit point to remember that due to the age of the 757 it does not need to meet the very restrictive 16g seat requirements so you cabin can be much lighter i.e. better range and much softer more comfortable seats as week -food for thought

Tony

[Gulfstreamaviator]

The fuel capacity of the G550, is 40500Lbs, with a variance of down to 39500, which I would use for LR planning.

There is the next problem, of payload: assume that with full fuel, and a slightly higher BOW then 4 pax is max.

Also baggage space, volume is limited. Tried to take 6 pax, and 26 peices from Luton, to UAE: had to refuse 14 pieces.

Whilst I love the G550, it does not have the volume for this trip.

Shame: gsa

[mutt]

I was doing a Google seach for some photos of our 340 when this thread showed up.....

Now im curious, Pilocol, did your boss end up buying anything?

Mutt