Pilots admit they took a nap on air

[F4F]

In a subject rather similar to this one http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=272105 Anubha Bhonsle of CNN airs his concerns:

New Delhi: Details from voluntary information reports handed over by pilots to their flight safety departments cite extreme fatigue.

"I was tired. My mind had stopped functioning. I took a power nap,” a
pilot said.

Another pilot added, "There was a point in my flight today when I could see
nothing. I lost focus. I had dozed off.”

The reports shown exclusively to CNN-IBN are anonymously dropped by pilots and co-pilots in a Debrief Box, in which many of them admitted to taking a nap on air.

"Flying is a complex job. After all a pilots body is similar to any other
human body,” says Former Indian Airlines Chief Operation, R S Anand.

The number of hours a pilot flies is governed by Flight and Duty Time
Limitation or FDTL. According to the DGCA rules – no pilot can fly more
than 125 hours during a period of 30 consecutive days, and not more than 30 hours in week. However, within this any permutation or combination is
possible.

These regulations were made to make sure men flying these machines were never tired. But in times of crisis, these rules are often overlooked.

"We know of instances during fog days when pilots come in early but actually sign in only when the fog clears out. So they have been on duty for long, but the paper work shows something else,” says Sudhakar Reddy of the Air Passengers Association.

Meanwhile, officials have admitted of instances when both the pilot and
co-pilot have left the cockpit while the plane was on air. It was later
opened with a secret code that the pilot has.

The incident is one of a kind but also reflects the flip side of the open
skies policy that aviation discipline is not what it used to be.

So the onus is on pilots, and the British Airways (BA) pilot who refused to
fly because he was sleepy after a disturbed night at the hotel may have
inconvenienced a lot of passengers, but was reinforcing high standards of
air safety.

May I ask, whose fault is it?
Flying now for my 4th company, ALL of 'em had what's called "controlled rest" permitting one pilot to take a short (up to 20 minutes) nap whilst the other manages the ship.

Far better land with a pilot that had the chance to take a nap during cruize than one that didn't :ok:

Does your company also allow controlled rest?

[Krueger]

Yes it does. It is advisable to rest while the workload is low, so when the approach comes , everybody will be wide awake.

There's a lot of studies that advise and regulate the way these "control naps" should be taken.

I see nothing wrong in aplly these naps. What the journos imply when this subject comes on the media is that everybody is asleep and the aircraft is on it's own.

Check Six krueger...

[dwshimoda]

I'm not yet flying commercially, but I have read a CAA article on this:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/2003_08.PDF

It seems the UK CAA are also of the opinion that, in the right circumstances, "power napping" is beneficial.

DW.

[Dani]

I think it's a cultural thing. Airlines of western descent tend to have implemented it, while in the East it's absolutely forbidden (although everyone dozes off). It goes hand in hand with other elementary but rather new methods like CRM and new managements skills.

Dani

[iqit]

someone once wrote something about stress that could easily apply to fatique.
he was talking about the wrong path people are taking as far as stress is concerned ....."modern" man/woman is looking for ways to increase its own capacity to handle stress instead of looking of ways to bring stress down to acceptable levels.
same ,i say,can apply for fatique,and i wonder why r we so blind to see it ...
instead of us pushing companies /regulators to reduce the hours we are flying ,the opposite happens ......
i do not want to take a power or any other kind of nap on the air .....
are we two crew ops or not ?
from personal experience ,i had two tcas alerts ,so far, during cruise ,one of which i had to initiate avoidance action because the other one was still trying to figure out what was going on .....
whats the point of two crew ops if one is taking a nap?
dont passively accept little "clever"sugestions("power nap") as part of a solution....the solution can be found elsewhere ....
and lets not forget the multi sector part of the aviation .....they dont have ,much time to take a nap .....but i guess they are always on alert ,so they dont have time to feel tired ,do they now?
we are on a spiral dive and things are only getting worse because we are not puting a stop to all this ....take your power nap now ,and whine about it in 10 years from now ,when the companies will accept it as part of our rest period in an efford to extend even more ,the allready saturated ftl.

[dash6]

So Capt. iqit what happens to your two crew operation when you go back to the rest room? (or don't you do that either?):) :)

[White Knight]

We have controlled rest during flight at the big airline in the sandpit - gotta say that it makes a HUGE difference to alertness at the end of a 9 hour night flight:ok: Bear in mind Iqit that most accidents/incidents are in the take-off or approach/land phase and NOT in the cruise.....

[Dream Buster]

If one is being encouraged to sleep as a Captain or aircrew for example during 4 short sector flights it seems to me as though something is wrong and the passengers are simply not getting what they paid for or expect.

The thin end of the proverbial and unnecessary wedge?

The thought of waking up at the begining of one of those "react now incidents', which we all know sometimes happen, is one of those totally avoidable situations too far;the CVR mightalso make for some uncomfortable and inconvenient listening, at any subsequent inquest.

The Captain was... asleep. WHY?

Long haul maybe, short haul - are they serious?

:=

[TopBunk]

DB

What is being said here, is that flight safety benefits by crew members annunciating their physical state. That raises awareness which is good.

Draw the analogy to your first sector after 3 weeks leave - you tell your colleague that you may be a little rusty - that is positive CRM, no?

Just the same scenario wrt state of alertness.

As in all things you then have to make a plan as to how to deal with it.

Scenario: Western Seaboard USA en route Europe at 0100Z.

Pilot A feeling tired. Pilot B OK at the moment, 5 hours to landing, all quiet on board.

What do you propose? Both stay awake for 4 hours until landing, or controlled rest.

Note: Power napping in seat up to 40 minutes is beneficial, getting into REM sleep is not.

IMHO and my company, controlled rest breaks are desirable to increase awareness at the 'business' end of the flight. It is not seen as a 'weakness', and nobody is suggesting that if you are both feeling fine that rest is necessary.

As to dealing with an immediate TCAS-type emergency single crew - what if it happens when the other person is in the loo? The tolerance allowed is significant for all but GPWS terrain events , and that is not being discussed here.

Maybe when you start flying worldwide, rather than on your one hour 146 sectors you will see the bigger picture?

[F4F]

Few interesting replies, thanks guys!

Mike Jenvey thanks for the JAR-OPS extract. I didn't know it was anchored in those as well.
As for your point of view iqit, I have to agree that the problem (or the solution...) of having the possibility of taking controlled rest is, once again as often the case in aviation, a compromise :cool:

[iqit]

dash6 ....another frastrated first officer that feels they should have offered him left hand seat ,because he so damn good! does your company ,if you work for an airline that is,includes arrogance in their crm courses or does it come out naturally?
i was a junior first officer then ,and the reason i havent mentioned that ,was ,THAT was not important ....the important thing was that one of the two was not acting and the other had to do something.....2 crew ops!
i do support taking a nap ......my point was that we ended up needing a nap during cruise .
a uk busdrive told me a few years ago that they are not allowed to drive for more than 9ish hours a day and that they have to take a rest after 4 hours of continues driving .
i do understand that they have no autopilots ,but still.....how do they manage to secure their working conditions ,and in extend provide a safer enviroment for the people that travel with them?

[Dream Buster]

TB,

I was trying to make the point that for short haul pilots it is virtually impossible to get that 40 minute sleep which I am sure that everybody agrees is so desirable, yet totally unattainable.

Short haul pilots often feel knackered too and would welcome a nap.

Dream on.

:ok:

[taildrag]

This has been discussed earlier in these posts.
A NASA study some years ago :rolleyes: of short haul pilots on the US East Coast involved pilots being "wired" with sensors, and accompanied by technicians on flights. There is a film somewhere in which a technician is standing behind the two pilots in the cockpit, and exclaiming with some amazement that "These two guys both know I'm here. This one fell asleep for 10 minutes, and that one for 5 minutes," or words to that effect.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! HUNH?

[dash6]

Dear iqit. such vitriol! Love to hear how much you you value other folks comments though. I agree;power naps are,and have always been a good idea.Not all us normal humans can sleep to order prior to a trip. Better a short zizz before top of descent,than microsleeps during a manually flown approach.I hope my fellow aviator will be more up to speed than yours obviously was,if there is a problem,especially if I allow him a "shuteye" (Long haul skipper;only 35years experience,still learning.Thanks for the input):) :)

[PantLoad]

I knew of a guy who purposely wore Depends (adult diapers), so he didn't have to leave the flight deck during flight.:yuk:

Now, I call that dedication.:D


PantLoad

[HotDog]

iquit, get your shift key fixed; must be very frastrating for you to have to type everything lower case:ugh:

[ekpilot]

Power naps? Come on guys, who's kidding who? I've taken 6 hours on an 8 eight sector. Power nap? Not that one. FOs have been asleep all the way to London whilst I've been awake. Power Nap? No, there's some serious heads in sand where I work and nothings gonna change until....

Night, I'm off to bed. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz :zzz:

[islandhopper]

(6hrs rest on a 8hr flt) is'nt that what a co-pilot is for?
Youngsters these days think they can have it all....me I know what I can have.:)

[Brian Abraham]

DC-8 frieghter years ago flying middle of the night east to west coast overflew destination not responding to radio calls. Selcal finally woke them up. Mate on C130 on a long day relates waking up to find the other three crew members fast asleep. One skipper used to carry a 30 minute egg/cooking timer which he used to clip to the glareshield so if everyone dropped off the most they would get was 30 minutes.

[411A]

Proper airline pilots do NOT take naps, they just ah...rest their eyes.:E

[glhcarl]

I was on a ferry flight YYZ to CBG, we had been in the are about several hours (it was about 3:00am) and I went up to the flight station; the pilot was asleep, the flight engineer was asleep and the co-pilot was reading a magazine. Everything was under control.

[Dani]

Quote: Brian Abraham
"One skipper used to carry a 30 minute egg/cooking timer which he used to clip to the glareshield so if everyone dropped off the most they would get was 30 minutes."

Some airlines have built in such "egg timer" in the cockpit, and take it as part of their procedure, that you are only allowed to do control rest if you set your alarm clock (so you're not going to exceed the 20/40 min). Very useful!

Dani

[das Uber Soldat]

doesnt EFIS bleep at you if you dont touch/alter/input data etc after a certain amount of time?

[n8pilot]

Here is a good articlle http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070417/od_nm/india_flight_sleep_dc

I told one employer I was too tired to do another trip. They were quite upset:mad: . But after calling the FSDO the following morning, management quickly had a memo supporting fatigue awareness.:ok:

PAX may complain, but family members suing you after the airliner crashes is a bit more costly.

I say good on the BA mates:D

[Puritan]

doesnt EFIS bleep at you if you dont touch/alter/input data etc after a certain amount of time?
No, it doesn't (at least not on the B737's / B757's that I fly)

[wiggy]

Yes it does...on at least some 744's. It's called the 'Pilot Response" function. Can't remember the timings but do know it starts with a gentle reminder on the Primary EICAS with a "pilot response" message..if you don't respond it escalates the warnings to all the bleeps/ horns etc.

[TopBunk]

I think it's every 20 minutes.

Some see how many times they can get the caution to sound on a sector - you can just about manage 2 per 10 degree of longitude across the pond. If you have CPDLC can you get more?

[beechgal]

It seems that not only do the FDTL's need to be re-evaluated and pilot's schedules arranged accordingly in the case mentioned, but i tend to agree with what has been said regarding the taking of controlled naps. I think in the public eye it is not viewed in the context of what it is.. pax hearing a pilot took a nap would be alarmed naturally, thinking the plane is unmanned, without actually realising that there is another fully qualified pilot at the controls at the same time. However if the other crew member is in control during a cruise phase of flight (understandably not during takeoff/landing), everything should be fairly routine.

I can understand the long haul flights getting tedious when you have 5 hours till you land, but i would be interested to hear how the short-haul pilots doing several legs a day manage to cope with their fatigue. Flying, regardless whether long haul or short haul, can be draining. :sad:

[Dream Buster]

Short haul pilots don't, can't nap.

QEDZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...................

:ugh:

[A330AV8R]

well we get a bunk bed to even stretch our legs out and zzzzz would you imagine ? hehe but thats long haul for ya :E

[fyrefli]

I'm a bit puzzled as to why a couple of people have criticised the author of the original article. Read his concluding (and it is indeed a conclusion that he's worked towards in the rest) comment:

"the British Airways (BA) pilot who refused to
fly because he was sleepy after a disturbed night at the hotel may have
inconvenienced a lot of passengers, but was reinforcing high standards of
air safety."

Sounds like precisely the sort of journalist you need "onside".

[taildrag]

I talked to a wide-body F/E several years ago. His regular run was from NYC to the Pacific. He said "Many's the time..." (repeat, "Many's the time") he awoke to realize he was the Pilot Iin Command.

Great Jumpin' Jehosephat!

[Stone Cold II]

Dream Buster you keep saying short haul pilots don't nap can't nap, well I'm with a short haul airline and we are allowed to take a controlled nap! It's in our SOP no more than 20 minutes at a time and the reason that it is 20 minutes is that the cabin crew are supposed to check on us every 20 minutes.

When I say short haul I mean bucket and spade flights to the costa's or do you mean domestics? Domestics there is not enough time but going to Malaga there is plenty of time.

[captjns]

Actually the true professional does not even take a cat nap... they merely stare at the overhead panel to ensure that no switch moves on its own. Some times you need to look at those switches for almost 2 to 3 hours.

[Dream Buster]

Stone Cold II,
I never said that short haul pilots don't crave a bit of shut eye, just like everybody else - it's just not quite as easy to shut those eyes and maybe we fly in a slightly different ATC environment where, if you happen to have them shut and your brain turned off at the wrong time - you could be in for a real nightmare - on waking up.....:eek:

[pontifex]

I find the definition of long/short haul somewhat misleading. It takes 6 to 7 hours to get to JFK (that's long haul). It takes 5+ to get to Cyprus, an hour to turn round and 5+ to get back and that's short haul! This used to puzzle me as we struggled to keep our eyes open at 0400 somewhere over Austria or Hungary. In the end we (in our particular airline) decided to take power naps on the grounds that they were preferable to involuntary microsleeps on the approach. Boy did it work. 20 minutes kip was worth an extra 3 hours alert consciousness. It was a wonderful feeling. I am very glad that it now seems to have a degree of formal sanction. I cannot recommend the technique strongly enough.

[Dream Buster]

I flew 'short' haul for 15 years, 8 night and 7 day, never went to sleep once.

Not for lack of want, just didn't seem right.:ouch:

[Bob Lenahan]

Flew short-haul freighters for awhile, and we took naps when PNF.

[DA50driver]

I took a nap last night on a long return flight back to Europe. Works great, and certainly alot better than trying to stay awake till 0400 when your body just doesn't want to. Egg timer in cockpit, FA's aware, wide awake copilot. No weather issues, no turbulence, 385 nm direct across Romania. Why not?

[rubik101]

Long-haul, short-haul, makes no difference.
45 minutes on an eight hour flight, great.
5 minutes on a 55 minute flight, the last of four or whatever, also great.
I have done them all and if you need to sleep, sleep. Even 5 minutes will make a difference.
btw, I find that it is easier to nap when you are PF. The other guy is doing the paperwork and the 'phone so all you need to do is turn down your radio volume and kick back for a while.
Provided that you warn him/her to wake you if he/she feels tired or sleepy, all should be fine.

[overstress]

How come the -400 seats don't recline as far back as the A320's?
Can't get decent kip in the seat in the -400! Although, blanket, eye jobby and floor and window heaters to max helps, as does winding the rudder pedals forrard.

In my company we encourage it and SOP it, so we all know what's going on.

There are some who stil don't "embrace" this concept, yet they still 'nod off' until one 'formalises' it by suggestion!

[Fatboy Ginge]

as a non pilot I but having been sat in the back of the aircraft I would rather have you guys alert for descent and landing. If that means that you need a 20 minute shuteye during the cruise then so be it.

As an LGV driver I frequently take power naps as starting at stupid o'clock in the morning plays havoc with my body clock.

For the record we have to have 45 minutes break after 4.5 hours of driving. We are also supposed to have 45 minutes break after 6 hours work if our working day will be scheduled at greater than 9 hours. This applies to multi-drop work rather than trunking.

We are not allowed to drive for more than 9 hours but this can be extended to 10 hours twice a week. The extra hour must be "paid back" the following week.

Our working day must be no more than 15 hours from start to finish. If you are away from base on night out then a bunk must be provided in the cab, if there is no bunk then suitable provision for rest must be given e.g. a hotel.

We must have a break of 11 hours between shifts but this may be reduced to 9 hours 3 times a week and there is no requirement to "repay" this time" and we must have a 35 hour break between working weeks.

[TheGorrilla]

I think the "technical term" used for this in our company is "controlled rest". It is approved as an SOP. Personally, I've found some situations lately where the pattern of work has left me no option other to ask the other pilot if they mind if I shut my eyes for 20-30 mins/take "controlled rest". Very few object, some may say they need a physiological break first(take a piss/wazz/dump/coffee etc (:} )), though never refuse. I've flown with chaps who through no fault of their own have not had as good quality rest as me and vica versa. This situation hit me when following a SYD trip I flew to BOS. The trip downunder was long enough to move my body clock forward so far as to be a real problem recovering in 2 days off before going west. Thus I hit a brick wall of tiredness about 2 hours into the pond crossing. Had to ask for a couple of periods of controlled rest.

The roster was legal. Without this nap/controlled rest/zizz (call it what you like) I don't think I could have performed safely during descent, approach and landing. Some cabin crew seemed concerned that I couldn't hold a conversation with them of any depth without yawning or appearing to switch off at one stage (Well hey what's new!!!??). As such I think a napping policy is highly valuable when coincident with modern airline rostering systems.

In other words we are flying "single pilot" for periods of flight. I wonder what the travelling public would think? Though I'm sure if the need arose the napping pilot could be woken and back in the loop within a minute of all hell breaking loose.... Given 12 seconds of useful consciousness at FL400 this is clearly not a problem. Though I sespect the erotic nature of his/her dreams may cause him/her to suspect something was up and wake in a cold sweat!

I hope you can see where I'm coming from on this. Shorthaul pilots (I was one), there is nothing macho about staying awake when you're tired, it's dangerous, so don't keep posting that crap!! Same goes for any part-timers or pilots acclimatised or flying low hours a year. I would love to be able to complete a trip on my line without feeling tired to the point where I have to ask the other pilot if they mind me taking controlled rest. Sadly that seldom happens unless I have lots of time off or leave. Ho hum... :(

[powerless]

As SLF I am pleased to think that the guys and girls up front on a long haul are taking turns for a nap during the cruise so they are better able to handle anything thrown at them during the decent. Don't see why people should find this worrying! If I am driving a long trip I pull over and have a twenty minute snooze if I feel tiredness is an issue. Think Gorilla has the right attitude!

[fly real fast]

Does anyone else feel like taking a nap as soon as you put your uniform on getting ready for work?? My company has "controlled rest" on the flight deck. Needs to be written up and the hostie needs to call every so often. Probably the only time you hear from them :rolleyes:

[TopBunk]

Does anyone else feel like taking a nap as soon as you put your uniform on getting ready for work??

Absolutely! Put the uniform on = tired. The problem is when I take it off to go to the bunk I can't sleep:*

[captjns]

Uniforms?!?!?!!? Who wears uniforms? I wear my jammies and bring my teddy bear to work so I can cut to the chase and rest up for my layovers. Saves on the dry cleaning bills.

[Fil]

Some see how many times they can get the caution to sound on a sector - you can just about manage 2 per 10 degree of longitude across the pond. If you have CPDLC can you get more?

Love it TB....

[Fix Info]

Dream buster. I always fail to understand why "men of steel" can't understand that all jobs are not created equal. You didn't sleep because it didn't feel right????? That simply meant that you're either somewhat off your rockers, or you weren't tired enough. I'd much rather sleep on purpose while in cruise, than accidentally on approach.

In a normal cruise situation on any sector over 1.5 hours there's basically nothing to do at all. The aircraft follows the green line, if there's a system failure you'll get a warning, and you've ealready checked the particulars of all the available enroute airports on your previous umpteen operations in the area. Based on the rostering at my airline, there's no way I could be safe on landing if I didn't use power naps, or full on 4 hour sleep session.

You claim that the passenger don't get what they pay for??!!??!?!?! I wonder what you're smoking!!! They get exactly what they pay for. If the airlines would actually hire enough pilots to create reasonable rosters, there wouldn't be any need for sleeping on the flight deck. Then again, that means the ticket prices would go up, and surprise-surprise, the audience isn't willing to pay for that level of quality.

The ones that are willing and able use corporate jets.

[Dream Buster]

Fix info,

OK, so I prefered to stay awake when I maybe should have been asleep.

Perhaps that's part of the reason why I burnt out and had to retire prematurely from a once decent job, which became a nightmare towards the end.

Just keep snoozing, but don't be surprised that by doing so you are contributing absolutely nothing to the long term future well being of the industry or your fellow aviators.

I'm sure there's a fairly appropriate descriptive name for people like you, but I can't quite think what it is at the moment without being too rude.

All I try to be is honest and if something is not right, I try and change it - otherwise you all continue on the path to a predictably sticky end, not me - i'm out.

I remain very concerned for those who are left; but for the likes of you -
I ain't really bovvered. :yuk:

[TheGorrilla]

Not sure you understand the nature of long haul flying. Would be great to stop every 4-5 hours somewhere for a couple of days. This would probably mean getting to Oz and back would take about a month!!

[Fix Info]

Dreambuster wrote: I'm sure there's a fairly appropriate descriptive name for people like you, but I can't quite think what it is at the moment without being too rude.

I'd like to find out what that word is. You can say it to my face. You can also say it to the other 1800 pilots at my particular place of employment. If you suggest that we can actually do something about the problem, you're smoking way heavier stuff than I thought. Unless the whole industry walks off their jobs, and set up the picket lines, I don't see much change in the near future.

Another problem is naturally that it takes 15 hours or so to get to Australia from where I'm sitting, and that ain't going to change in the near future. Even if you do a stopover in SIN or BKK on the way, it's still 8hr sectors, with back of the clock flying. I would like to see you do a 9 day trip with flying somewhere for 8 hours every 24 (all of it in the "wrong" circadian zone) and stay awake the whole time. If you want a word for those people staying awake I would actually call them irresponsible.

I think you should take your colloquial snottiness and actually be very "bovvered" by the whole phenomena. Why do you think there's a constant debate on the subject? Why do you think that every single one of my colleagues end their sentences with "keep recovering"?

If you had to leave your job prematurely because you burnt out due to not sleeping on board, I would suggest that you didn't do much about the long term industry conditions either. You should've instead called in sick with fatigue at regular intervals in order to keep a reasonable circadian rythm going. But, alas, then you would've been fired... Oooops!!!!

[fox niner]

There is nothing wrong with long haul flying. I had a good 4 hour nap in the OCR last night from SIN to Europe. And hey, guess what? I can even write every single minute that I was sleeping in my log book.

[Codger]

Just think about the differences within that hour prior to a similar flight 10 years ago. Traffic is lighter and more enjoyable. Ground procedures are absolutely trouble free and last minute changes are a thing of the past.
The oxygen content of the air in the terminal is higher, and the numbers of nasty little bugs in that fresh air that your body has to fight have been reduced by two thirds. The friendly uniformed security staff don't want to accomplish anything other than to perform a cavity check in order to massage your prostate so that you feel better prior to boarding. Time just seems to fly by on those 8 hour legs and you feel ready for a good 2 hours on a raquet ball court after each one of those legs.
In case your brain misinterpreted the above because you are too stressed and tired, it was a dream.
The pace of life has changed and continues to become more stressful.
Stress tires you out. Take the naps. Admit it to yourself when you suddenly realise that you missed your exit on the highway, that you were asleep at the wheel and not "resting your eyes" or "distracted".

[Dream Buster]

Info fix.

Calm down - what are you on?

1. If you read my earlier posts on napping it was all to do with the only sector of aviation that I have been concerned with, SHORT HAUL, please understand that I bow to your superior status as a long haul pilot and I would appreciate some recognition of my sector and the difficulty of taking a nap on short sectors!

2. The fact that you believe that the present situation is set in stone is also deeply worrying for the future.

3. Again, I AM bovvered for the present victims but not for those who rant and then do precisely nothing. Hit me harder! Speak up man.

4. Not sleeping whilst Captain of a short haul aircraft was probably one of the factors which burnt me out. The other one which you may gather from earlier posts was contaminated air from BAe 146 aircraft, but I don't suppose you recognise that either. Kind of makes you feel sleepy.

5. I did elect not to fly on three different occasions due to fatigue. The last time was the final time and I now know that they were the best and hardest decisions I ever had to make. Why don't you try the same one day?

6. I fired myself I suppose - which was a unbelievably difficult decison at the time and I have reason to believe that I am not the only one to have done so.

7. For the record, I never failed a sim check (thanks mate) and I am actually 'doing something about it', which again is fairly rare, in this quite selfish industry.

We may have been poisoned, but we aren't stupid.

I respect everybodys point of view on this forum but some pilots understanding of other peoples issues and working conditions can be somewhat blinkered. I understand completely your fortunate position Info Fix but please try and open your eyes occasionally and understand what is going on under your nose reference to other pilots positions less fortunate than yours and your 1800 colleagues. :cool:

DB.

[shoey1976]

... or sleeping/napping at the controls, as critics would put it.
The research I'm doing for BBC News continues, and something which I've heard varying opinions about is the issue of sleeping/napping/controlled rest during less intensive phases of flight eg during the cruise, as opposed to approach.
Obviously, I'd imagine there's far more scope for this for longhaul pilots, than for shorthaul flight crews?
Is controlled rest etc etc becoming more widely used in shorthaul operations? Is this a problem? Do you feel fully alert as soon as you wake up, or do you need a few moments to regain full faculties?
I'm asking these questions because I genuinely don't know - I'm a journalist, not a pilot.
Very keen to hear your thoughts on this.
Best wishes
Ian Shoesmith
BBC News
+44 (0) 7769 977665
[email protected]

[Capt Fathom]

Sleep Walking is definitely frowned upon ... :E

[shoey1976]

cheers!
ian

[Dream Buster]

Ian,

I talked to a train driver today and mentioned that (short haul) pilots aren't entitled to any sort of a break during a 4 sector day - he could not believe it.

:=

DB

[cactusbusdrvr]

The NASA study that was referenced earlier was done with Northwest Airlines crews flying trans Pacific routes. The difference in alertness between the crews taking 20 to 40 minute naps and those not taking naps was phenominal. The crews not taking naps would go into microsleeps, dozing off for up to a minute at a time, even during high workload, high stress events like, say, an approach into Narita during WX.

Dr. Mark Rosekind was the author of the study, he has since left NASA and does consulting. He did a seminar for our airline years ago on behalf of our ALPA safety committee. Management was impressed but the beancounters said it costs too much to implement all the fatigue fighting countermeasures he proposes. We did get the company to agree to no "sunrise service", i.e., if you have flown all night and you land after 4 am home domicile time then you cannot be scheduled for another sector. We also have limitations on the number of days (nights) you can fly through your circadian low (3 to 5 am HDT). If you fly one all -nighter then the next night you must be done by 3 am HDT. Naps definitely help but not more than 40 minutes - you do not want to get into deep REM sleep and try to be alert right away.

[aerotransport.org]

somewhere in Asia := :
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/bluemax-1/DSC00944.jpg

[F4F]

aerotransport.org no no no, you got it wrong, the skipper IS NOT asleep, I write again not asleep...
He merely concentrates for the difficult approach to come :cool:

[avy-enthu]

I guess, rather believe that controlled rest has more pros than cons.Specially on long routes or on flights being taken at odd hours.

After all, we are humans....

Avy-yo

[BigBadBoy]

Hey everyone

Did you know NASA spent 20 Million on a sleep study concerning Pilots.

The results were a 20-40 minute power nap will help you regain up to 40% of your effective alertness.

Now how many of us could of told them that for say.....1 Mil.

[FlightDetent]

I have an issue with the 40 minutes timing. During my training I learned about the "NASA nap" and the maximum time permitted to avoid REM phase (45 min). Also, that the REM onset thershold is significantly reduced by: non-standard awakefulness paterns (red-eye) + tiredness + fatigue. Reduced by as much as 50%.
In my language, the saying "to have a nap" reads "to have a twenty", and so my long departed grandmother used to do. Ten minutes of voluntary nap brings miracles, 20 is a heaven. Personally, I am afraid of going over the threshold and have never done so (yet), have any of you experienced a problem with rest above 20 min?

[FullWings]

I find the comfort of the seats to be the limiting factor, really. If I can get a couple of pillows and a duvet then jam the ANR headset on top of it all, then several hours is possible... I often get the situation where both pilots are on completely different time zones, so one is nodding while the other is wide awake; why not take advantage of that?

All this business of REM and non-REM: How awake were you expecting to be at 4am, anyway? When doing ULR bunked rest, the changeover crew will probably have been in deep sleep until 10mins before. Never noticed much difference. I also suspect that ability to concentrate will return quite quickly in the event of a major problem - that's what that pesky endocrine system is for!

[L337]

When does the 40 minutes start from? From asleep? How do I know if the guy next to me is asleep? Or just got his eyes closed, and is trying to sleep.. If he takes 20 minutes to fall asleep, do I give him and hour from the point at which he closed his eyes. How do I know when to start the timing from?

I could wake him up and ask him if he has fallen asleep.

The 40 minutes is all OK when you are wired up in some NASA laboratory. On the flight deck the whole thing is a movable feast. The 40 minute nap rule is an idea thought up by some scientist and a paper pusher. Both of whom have never operated, week in and week out, long haul flights. Across multiple time zones with each bloke on the flightdeck in a different time zone.

[Fatboy Ginge]

Anything more than 20 minutes (unless I'm completely exhausted) and I'm useless for the next 30, I can't concentrate, my reactions are shot and on more than one occasion I believe I may have fallen asleep at the wheel.

When you're driving a 26 tonne rigid 6 legger with all the manoeuvring capability of a super-tanker this really ain't good.

I carry a kitchen timer with me with 4 timers to monitor my driving hours and use this as well as my personal mobile phone and the company mobile in the cab to make sure I don't over sleep.

For those of you who want to make sure they're not in my way when I'm driving, look for a 3663 lorry with me behind the wheel. The username gives my identity away. :O

[Fix Info]

I find it to be a pathetic practice to regulate nap time on the flight deck. It's highly individual. I've slept anything from 3 minutes, to 8 hours on board, and regardless of lenght of nap it's at least somewhat beneficial. However, in my case, the longer-the better. Sometimes sleep is taken in my seat, sometimes on the flight deck floor, and sometimes in bunk rest/first class seat. Generally I'm fully alert within 5 minutes of waking up. I could easily deal with an emergency within 20 seconds of waking, regardless of time spent snoozing.

My way of functioning is great for napping on board, but equally useless for sleeping in the non-flying world. I'm a light sleeper, and wake up easily. Once I'm awake, I leave the sleep-tired state quickly, and can't easily fall asleep again. To tell me I can only sleep for maximum 40 minutes is absolutely ridiculous, and serves no purpose from a post-sleep alertness/safety point of view. There are many guys I know who are the same. Let us sleep as much as we want, and for those NASA guys who require a 30 minute ramp-up period, make sure you don't sleep to much for your own comfort/safety level. Rules don't always have a proper place in the FOM. Guidelines would be a much better solution in many cases.

[Dream Buster]

Fix info,

Wouldn't it be fascinating to do some research, which I agree might be quite difficult to do......of having a Captain fast asleep in a First Class seat followed by a multi engine flame out in the dark (as has happened) and then see how long(er) it takes him to sort it out from being strapped in his seat and doing his job.

I am sure the passengers would find it most entertaining (depends which film they were watching.....)

Which airline did you say you fly for? :eek:

[BestonBoard]

Ok, I am not a pilot, merely one of those that deals with the SLF, but for you commercials out there you have hundreds of lives in your hands! As a member of those who work in the cabin, SEP guidelines state we have to check that you are ok every so often... so do you stipulate that you do not want to be checked on? ok, so maybe you or the FO is awake??? and the other alseep? heaven forbid something happen to the officer in control! I admit unlikely but heck it's possible! If you really are fatigued during these sectors, should you be operating? If it really is so hard going, would an observing pilot not be a help... sorry to be a moaner, but even on a fully loaded 1 class 738, 20 mins nap to you, decompression happens, Fo passes out and your already unconscious, thats 2 Flight deck, 4 crew, and 189 SLF all gone bye bye! just hope CRM training is up to date with you guys and your crew! Scary stuff! I would be that pain sccm that would not let you sleep I'm sorry... if you're tired... you're in command, don't take the flight out! :ooh:

[boeing_bananas]

Bestonboard,

In my company (and doubtless all others that allow controlled flightdeck rest), the policy is for us to tell the cabin crew that we will call them periodically (every 30 mins) instead of them calling us when one of us is napping. I always reiterate that they are to call us if we miss a call to them by a few minutes.

[BestonBoard]

Thanks for your responses, I honestly meant no disrespect... My life is in your hands! I would be happy if I am kept informed of your situation, would just hate to think you would not want to be disturbed... (I am aware that this has happened...) I fly mainly transatlantic routes with night flights on the return sector (STD not until 00.30z)... Your health and wellbeing is in my best interests... On a sector this long CC are not entitled to rest... yes we are not in control of the a/c, but if something were to happen to one of you it is our responsibility to deal with your incapacitation... I would not dream of tellinga senior officer what to do... just trying to understand the mentality... my apologies!

[FullWings]

Bestsonboard,

The idea behind pilots having "controlled rest" during the flight is that it is better for them to fall asleep then than at some point during the approach/landing. There are few things that require *immediate* responses in cruise flight and also involve both pilots. One of them is a rapid decompression but the only really crucial part of the checklist is to get on oxygen, the rest can be done later. It would be very difficult to sleep through an event like that with all the warnings, etc. going off, not to mention being shaken by a guy with a mask on!

Humans are diurnal mammals and it is against our natures to be awake and functional during hours of darkness (according to your body clock). You can lessen the effects of this by taking breaks and being well rested beforehand but it is difficult to get 'quality' rest during your personal daytime when your body is wide awake; being a professional in the same industry, I'm sure you are intimately familiar with this. However, our jobs differ in that the 'difficult bit' comes near the end of the flight for pilots (It doesn't stop until you're on the stand), whereas you have already coped with the peak in your workload.

Thankfully, the idea of 'superhuman' pilots soldiering on through the night, ever alert and watchful, never blinking and always vigilant has died a death. Not that anyone was actually capable of living up to that 'standard' anyway. :rolleyes: Have you ever been tired and driving a car late at night, then experienced a sort of 'twitch' where your head nods slightly in an involuntary way? Lasts only a fraction of a second? Well, that's called "microsleep" and there is a good chance you were 'out' for some while before that happened but you don't remember it... Imagine that happening to a pilot during the approach/landing phase. Scary eh? That's why most sensible operators have introduced SOPs for controlled rest during periods of low workload - it's probably one of the most cheap and effective ways of increasing flight safety known to man!

[Dream Buster]

Perhaps if 'controlled rest' was called 'asleep on the job' some of the previous statements might come across slightly differently. :confused: DB

[FullWings]

'Asleep on the job' is what you get on a long flight if you haven't had any 'controlled rest'...

[BestonBoard]

Thank you for setting the record straight. I would much rather you be in control at the critical stages! Thanks again, and happy flying!:ok:

[danishdynamite]

And so it happened again....
A pilot took a nap last night on the flight I was on.
But I really needed it :)
20 minutes nap and I came over the yawning period

[25F]

As SLF I reckon you guys and gals are just as keen as I am on getting back on the ground in one piece. If a snooze in the cruise means you're actually awake on finals, that's good with me.
Let's not forget that an inherently dangerous mode of transport has been made remarkably safe. As Guy Gibson said: "If [...] an air line flew three flights a day to Italy for three years running and lost only two aircraft, they would consider themselves one of the safest air lines in the world".
(He was writing about the fact that they had 1336 Lancaster sorties to Italy in one month, for two losses. And don't blame me for his wonky maths).

[TheMaster2007]

Ooof, wrong thing to do, isn't it?:ugh:
They should've just rested BEFORE or AFTER the flight.

[Flying Bagel]

Some guys don't like to admit they've fallen asleep on the job. I've flown with a captain who said to me he's never fallen asleep in 20+ years of mixed long haul and short haul flying. I reckon that he was probably asleep when he was telling me this.

However, I must say that fitness levels do have a big part to play in all this. Some guys who are fitter tend to stay alert for longer periods of time. I find myself getting better also after hitting the gym in recent times, that it has helped my regular sleep, thus helping me stay awake on the job.

But on long haul sectors, where the outport rest is less than 24 hours, doing the return flight at exactly the opposite timing of the original flight (i.e. leaving base at 12Z for 8h flight, going back to base at 22Z for 9h flight), it's impossible not to be tired on the flightdeck, especially if your 'rest period' means sitting in a pax seat with a snorer beside you.

As they say, lack of sleep accumulates, better to knock off some of the 'missing' time before you go fishing during a LVP approach...

[Fix Info]

Dream Buster,

You continue to amaze me. If you actually had long haul experience you wouldn't continue to make some of your comments. NO Captain of a 21th century airline on a long haul flight would leave the cockpit and take controlled rest in the cabin. However, on EVERY long haul flight above a certain duty time threshold there is a legal requirement for additional crew, and consequently a legal requirement for rest outside of the flight deck (unless you're flying a C-141 Starlifter, and have bunk beds on the flight deck...). The time it takes for that Captain resting in a seat, or in a crew bunk, is completely inconsequential since the crew manning the flight deck are fully qualified and competent to handle any abnormal situation that arises.

There's a difference between controlled rest on the flight deck, which is a legal term, and sleeping on board as part of your in-flight rest period. The discussion on this board is chiefly about controlled rest on the flight deck. However, my previous post simply touched the subject of sleep intertia, and the highly personal nature of ramp-up time after sleep, regardless of place of sleep being cockpit/bunk/your own bed. Some people are fully alert on contact, and others need half an hour to get with the program.

If you're concerned with passengering on my airline I think you should stop flying as a passenger altogether since the practice of napping onboard is omnipresent in the flying world.

Sadly enough for you, you flew ultras-hort haul, didn't have the ability to rest properly, and unfortunately paid a big price for it. (Possibly also suffering from the infamous 146 fumes). For that I'm sorry for you having to leave flying, except that maybe now you get proper night time sleep, which is a huge bonus in life.

During my 20 year career I've spent the last 10 in long haul widebody operations, and sleeping onboard is a whole world in itself. However, even during short haul European and US operations napping was, and always will be, a must if you want to maintain a reasonable level of safety during the critical phases of flight. Unfortunately, coffee can only get you so far...

Once more, if passengers are concerned with tired pilots, they need to pay for the hike in ticket price from airlines hiring more crew. In the end, almost all people are only willing to pay bottom price, and then sit around and complain about the dangers. Money talks as usual, and unfortunately for us tube drivers, the bean counters know this all too well.

[Dream Buster]

Fix Info.

No long haul; you are extremely fortunate and I am very envious of your ability to take 'controlled rest'. Good luck.

QED

:ugh: DB

[yoohoo748]

Controlled rest in the flight deck is vital to us maintaining alerness. On longer sectors, I try to plan a 10 or 20 minutes 'eye rest' an hour or so before TOD. Just shutting the eyes and having a short break increases my alertness greatly. As far as short sectors, I use to fly in the canadian arctic, 10 sectors in a 13:50 minute duty day... helping with all aspects of paperwork, loading and unloading. Half way through the day, we would be sure to tilt the head back (longer sector... 1.5 hours) for a bit and take a good look at the inside of our eyelids... for 5 to 30 minutes... sometimes 45. Made for a much more productive and safe second half of the day.

To say that this practice is unsafe is crazy. As a pax, I would feel much safer and secure knowing that the guys in the pointy end were fresh and well rested as they drove it down to the sometimes hostile airport environment.

my 2 cents worth

[F4F]

Well, made use of the possibility this morning... flying into GMMX, 3:27 flight time each way, ending a serie of earlies.

Those 20 minutes of :zzz: were a fantastic boost to my energy level and sure helped me fight the onset of tiredness that still set in, although much later in the flight.

Thanks to airlines that permit controlled rest :ok:

[RoyHudd]

Controlled always better than uncontrolled rest! Airlines cannot forbid the latter, but should encourage the former. Even relaxation is of value, sleep does not always come easy. My issue is that Cabin Crew interruptions need to be avoided. (Obviously emergencies take priority, but many contacts are disturbing and un-necessary). A plan whereby the fully-awake PF contacts the CC every 20 mins works very well.