Busting FTL limits - Emirates Airline's latest trick!

[Plank Cap]

Coming soon to the airspace near you........... London, Australia, US, Europe, Asia etc; an Emirates aircraft with very tired pilots flying well over 100 hours in 28 days, or 900 hours per year.

The UAE's favourite(!) airline has decided once again to instigate FACTORING of pilots' FLYING HOURS (as opposed to duty hours) for augmented flights. As advised this week by Flight Crew Instruction, as of May 1st 2007, augmenting pilots of heavy crew flights are only to log 66% of sector time on a 3 crew flight, or 50% on a 4 crew flight. This is NOT just for personal log books, but for the calculation of 28 day and annual flying hour limits as well!

The logic to the company is plain to see - why struggle to find enough pilots in a demanding recruitment scenario, when instead everybody's absolute flying hour limits can be arbitarily raised. This has been done before here, and subsequently dropped, but is now on again apparently at the behest of the local CAA. Some insiders suggest that Emirates have the CAA here in their back pocket, but one couldn't possibly comment on that allegation.......

Can this be safe, right or sensible? Do you know how your airline calculates flying hour limits?? Opinions please ladies and gentlemen....

[quickturnaround]

It is NOT safe nor wise to do so. Personally I am more tired after a dead headed sector than one operating.
Unfortunately, incidents must happen first in order to change this (new and unwise)policy.
Fly safely QTA.

[Lord Henshingly Croft]

simple,do'nt work for the fu$kers.

[Coastrider26]

This has been done before here, and subsequently dropped, but is now on again apparently at the behest of the local CAA. Some insiders suggest that Emirates have the CAA here in their back pocket, but one couldn't possibly comment on that allegation.......

Isn't the head of GCAA (also head of DXB) the owner of your airline?? :ugh:

[Zenj]

Amazing part, the Head of the CAA is also the Chairman of Emirates !

How can you win ?

[winkle]

What happens if you are bonded and the rules change! Smacks of the ol days of slavery and fuedalism.
I know its a bit off the mark but I have to rid the airline world of this bondage stuff. either you pay for your own type rating from your own funds or you dont. and stop this poncing about with bu77sh1t. if the airlines are so great to work for then you dont need it and IMHO its NOT enforcable. what you gonna do come round to my house and take my telly or sue me for every penny i dont have. come on folks lets stop this bonding nonsense for once and for all. all those planning to leave their crappy company just do it and move to the next crappy company and dont pay a penny. just stand your ground. todays world- license+hours+ringpiece=job

mr very angry from north of the border.

[Plank Cap]

Thanks for the replies so far. For the record, the head of Emirates Airline is not the head of the CAA here, though that is a commonly held misconception.

The idea of a pilot just leaving and the problem going away is slightly missing the point. It may well go away for the individual concerned, but not for the many who can't due family circumstances, bonding, being a national here etc etc.

Certain carriers come to the attention of other state authorities for flying aged aircraft of questionable serviceability (PIA come to mind) and get banned from European airspace til things are fixed. Yet how many hours a month does a pilot from the United Arab Emirates have to fly through your airspace before the UK CAA (for example) take notice - 110, 130, 150?? All possible under the new rules.

So folks just remember, the next time you see that huge new football stadium, all the cricket advertising, the Americas Cup and indeed the model A380 in Emirates colours where once Concord stood at the entrance to Heathrow, the company that asks you to "Keep Discovering", is now asking their pilots to "Keep RECOVERING" from excessive monthly and annual flying hours. Lets hope it's not your family in the back.......

[Coastrider26]

Ah common this is nothing new EK did it in the past and is doing it again. It was when they put the H.A.R.T. or H.E.A.R.T.H. in and then got rid of it as soon as they got a pilots shortage.

As far as the sheikh of Dubai forgot his name being head of GCAA that story is going around for years and if he's not head of that ministery surely his brother, cousin, uncle or good friend is head of the department. You should by now know how these things work in the sandpit.

On the other side GCAA approves a lot of things for other operators as well it's not just EK.

If you can not leave for whatever reason get a sicknote if you're to tired to fly this is covered under the regs.

As far as locals not being able to leave EK not sure why.... Do they get punished if they come back into the country? Do they get a sightseeing tour from ATC? or is it something else....

[Desert Driver]

The point of this thread was, does anyone else have factored hours for absolute Limits?

As for the head of the Airline having anything to do with the regulatoy Authority, this is just a myth. The head of the airline is the Chairman of the DCA (Dubai Civil Aviation) This is actually the AIRPORT not the GCAA. this would be the same as saying the Spanish guy in charge of BAA (British Airports Authority) is the head of the UK CAA.

:ugh:

[Coastrider26]

ok point taken, We do not have factored airline neither did I hear any other airline than EK using them.

[AHRS]

My condolences mate!What's a ring-piece?(English aint my first language)

[kotakota]

AHRS

It rhymes with your moniker , and you are sitting on it !

[Backwater]

Plankcap - Not wanting fact to ruin a good story, if you read the FCI they effectively say that only Logged hours count toward the absolute maximums. Therefore as augmenting pilots are only allowed to log 'time in seat' or 'stick time' then it is those pilots with a lot of augmenting flights who will be affected. That is the 340 F/Os mainly. Also anyone nudging 900 hours can expect rosters full of JFKs, SYDs and MELs. The 66%/50% figures you quote are for planning but don't relate to what you can actually fly - you can actually fly a lot more!
Clearly EK (and if we are to believe EK, the GCAA)are wrong in doing this as logged hours are different to 'flight time' as defined for the purposes of maximums.
Can I suggest you write a politely worded email to mgmt asking for clarification of the FCI.

[merlinxx]

Heavy crew time accounting. All Duty Time is Duty Time, time at controls is irrelevant. This break down of Time at Controls & Time on Duty was a practice used some many years ago by US FAR91 carriers, I saw many a time where one crew (Capt/FO/FE + Cabin) operated ETAR/RMS Diego Garcia live and logged. 2 hr T/R then return as a backend ferry. Nothing logged for the return sector, just a pay log. No FTLs for FAR 91 ops.

Also have seen OEDR/DHA-ETAR/RMS-KSWF/SWF-KAOK/OAK in one hit with only the RMS/SWF sector logged, this again with one 3 man crew, long day what.

I had thought that these practices had been torn apart, seems not, I'd hate to be one of the front line crewing folks in your little bit of the NEW Sandpit-High Rise-Car Park-Shopping Mall, what was a good beach/creak areana.

I was in the original!!

[Airbus Unplugged]

Did TCAS get this idea from his old mate LCG at Big? He always thought that bunk time should be treated as annual leave.

Where do they get off?

[australiancalou]

From my point of view I see no reason to apply in such an "airline".
Emirates used to be one of the top airlines and it's a pity to see how things are changing. I do think that even though they increase the salaries and improve T&Cs in the next futur nobody will forget.
They are reaching the point of no return.
Should we ban Emirates?..............:ouch:

[Desert Driver]

If Flight Engineer time only counts for 25% towards licences or ratings, perhaps he is allowed to fly 400 hours in 28 days and 3600 hours in the previous 12 months. P2, P3 etc. time can be factored the same way.

However pay is still calculated on total time in the Aircraft so there could be a lot of rich widows.

DD:hmm:

[unablereqnavperf]

Its all very simple don't work for this airline! Every one that does has gone there to fly nice shinny toys and have lots of cash. ie you take the Shieks shilling you take the Shieks Sh1t. You don't like it, you move on.

[Paris Hilton]

This is a flagrant violation of FTL's. Clearly for the purpose of not hiring more pilots. (Maybe no one applied!)

Plank Cap, I think you hit the solution already. Get the regulators in destination states to blacklist the airline until back in line.

As an aside, a previous employer tried to push an 8 hour positioning flight as 'rest period', to then operate an 8 hr flight. F***ing amazing.

[Dan Winterland]

8 hours rest in flight followed by 8 hours duty. I think MK used to do that. Not any longer!

[Fly747]

EK will stop it too but only after they have their MK moment.

[nolimitholdem]

The rumbling on the street is that it's coming...all trends point to it. Swiss cheese, error chain, call it whatever you like...guys are just...plain...tired.

[mujan]

Dan & Paris,
What about those of us who chose to live many miles from base and commute, arriving before flights, in many cases long-haul? This has always been something that has been ignored, both by the airlines and the regulatory authorities but I think it's just a matter of time before an accident happens that reveals that the pilot left home (perhaps in another country) several hours before his report time, with none of the travel time being taken into account before his 14 hour duty day.

[Artificial Horizon]

Mujan,

Surely that is your choice to live a distance away from your base and have to commute. If your airline is anything like mine then they expect you to present yourself for duty sufficiently rested to perform the subsequent duty. If your commute is really so far that this new measure will affect you in such a way perhaps you should travel earlier to allow a period of rest before duty... or .... move closer. I get quite sick of the guys at work who have chosen to commute and then moan about how hard done by they are.

[Dan Winterland]

A long haul commute immediately prior to reporting is a choice. Not a good one, but a choice. I know one guy who used to commute out on the very same aircraft he flew back to his home airport. He was sacked when found out, so in some cases the company does take notice.

I used to have a 3 hour drive to report for a long haul job. That was my limit. But when you have no choice such as in the case of the MK guys who died at Halifax, that's a very different matter!

[Cuillin]

When a friend of mine knew he was going to be leaving Emirates he had to round down his hours and hope that the UK airline he was applying to didn't do their sums too closely when they examined his logbook!

First time I have ever heard of a pilot saying he had done less hours than he had actually done.

[bear11]

Oh, I think you'll find that that quite a few pilots (outside of Europe) have a similar experience. Without pointing any specific fingers, I have friends who have flown in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia who have way under-reported hours on their logbooks.

[mujan]

AH,
you appear to have misread my post or not read all of it. I am not one of those that choose to live a long way away. But there are many of us that do, in all parts of the world, and the regulators and airlines turn a blind eye to it.

[wiggy]

Please don't give the powers that be an excuse to legislate yet more of our lives. What next? We all have to live next to the airport ( Is Hounslow - West, or Hayes close enough:eek: ) and forced to take drug induced sleep to ensure we are rested before that 2000 Local report? Perhaps pilots will not allowed to have children/husbands/wives/domestic minor crises because they may interfere with preflight rest.

In my experience Shorthaul commuting (by air) is less stressful than battling traffic on the UK Major roads and maybe the longhaul commuters may be better acclimatised than the locals for the late night reports and departures, though I'm not advocating jump straight off the longhaul commute and into the Flight Deck.

[Skytrucker]

Sounds pretty much like normality in aviation today. You wont believe what we put up with. Any one know when the next Emirates open day is and where?

[sky9]

Surely the maximum number of hours flown in a month is not for Emirates to decide but the local CAA.
Could someone confirm that this instruction has come from local CAA in a legal rule change; if not you could be breaking the law.

[Gillegan]

Surely the maximum number of hours flown in a month is not for Emirates to decide but the local CAA.
Could someone confirm that this instruction has come from local CAA in a legal rule change; if not you could be breaking the law.

It appears that in an act of desperation, the management here has interpreted the regulation that deals with the logging of time as an augmenting crewmember to also apply towards the FTL's (ie. time spent in the bunk cannot count towards total time for the purposes of attaining a license). Never mind that when they tried this before, the GCAA intervened. It is well known that we are facing a severe crewing shortage this summer and this appears to be their solution. What is not known is whether the GCAA is going along with this or not.

They have tried to tell us that they are being "forced" to do this by the GCAA and that they "really don't want to". Of course, when asked why they don't simply apply a more conservative approach and state that they will only roster crews to the 100 hours in 28 days, (including augmenting operations) they are silent.

[phantom menace]

What medical evidence is there to support such a blatant disregard for safety..:= ... start a union, they can't sack all of you.

[411A]

Could it be that many (or at least some) of the comments here with negative waves are actually from folks who have approached, and been rejected from, EK?
Perish the thought.:\
Now, when you do apply for a job, any job, you are asking for work.
Is it not then reasonable to expect the airline, when they hire the pilots, to expect those pilots to actually adhere to the terms and conditions, even if one of those conditions means sitting/resting in suitable crew rest areas?
Augmented/double crews have been used for years, so get used to it.
However, if on the other hand, some already at EK, and don't like the 'factoring', have a clear path...quit, and find other employment.
Been done before...:rolleyes:

[A-3TWENTY]

What a good job I have....

(80 Hours a month , every night home , 12 duty days...

[sky9]

the management here has interpreted the regulation that deals with the logging of time as an augmenting crewmember to also apply towards the FTL's (ie. time spent in the bunk cannot count towards total time for the purposes of attaining a license). Never mind that when they tried this before, the GCAA intervened.

Surely it is up to the individual not to exceed the mandatory legal limit set down by the local GCAA. Unless the company can show that the law has been changed it would have ramifications both for the individual and the company concerned.

Ask to the the GCAA approval for this change in the law.

[nolimitholdem]

Is it not then reasonable to expect the airline, when they hire the pilots, to expect those pilots to actually adhere to the terms and conditions, even if one of those conditions means sitting/resting in suitable crew rest areas?

Is it not reasonable to expect the airline, to actually adhere to the terms and conditions in force when they hire the pilots? There's a concept.

"Just quit". Ah, the catchall solution. Why didn't I think of it. :D

[Gillegan]

Surely it is up to the individual not to exceed the mandatory legal limit set down by the local GCAA. Unless the company can show that the law has been changed it would have ramifications both for the individual and the company concerned.

Well the big question is whether this is the company being aggressive without the acquiescence of the GCAA in which case we may see a "clarification" or whether they have the approval to apply the regulation as they have. As far as individuals asserting their own interpretations of the CAR's, that's where it gets fun being an expat with "limited rights". Even if guys do refuse to fly 120 hour months of "factored" time, I'm sure there will be plenty more who will be only too happy to take the paycheck. I just hope I'm not in the back of their airplane.

[Ancient Observer]

Anyone know who/when invented the FTL numbers in the first place? Where is the research that says that any one number - 900, is better/worse than another - especially with current fatigue-inducing rosters??
The military in the UK used to research this sort of stuff, but I have no idea whether or not they still do.
I'm not after the law, more the bright spark/team/cttee who invented 900 and the research behind it.

(UK law below)
The reference for UK law is the Air Navigation Order, Section 1 Part VI, Paragraph 74 1 (b)

(1) Subject to paragraph 2, a person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the UK if at the beginining of the flight the aggregate of all his previous flight times:
(b) during the period of twelve months expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 hours.

It then goes on to talk about exceptions in paragraph 2.

[sky9]

shall not
I think that you will find at the front of the ANO a definition of shall i.e that it is mandatory, other than of course the exceptions in para 2.

[flyby797]

Can somebody explain the "MK moment"?
Thanks

[Taildragger67]

Flyby797,

MK Airlines (a cargo carrier) lost a 747-200SF with the loss of seven crew at Halifax, Nova Scotia in 2005.

The report by Transport Canada (http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/2004/A04H0004/a04h0004_sec3.asp#3) concluded that fatigue - on the part of the operating crew and others - was a contributing factor, as was lack of oversight by the Ghanaian aviation authorities, rapid growth of the company and flight crew turnover leading to a shortage of flight crew and a failure to follow company SOPs with a lack of company and regulatory enforcement. (see especially points 3.1 5-8; 3.2 6-12, 14, 16.

The report noted that it was not the first time in the preceding few years in which MK had lost an aircraft. The report as a whole makes for very sobering reading and should be required reading for scheduling/rostering people and their bean-counter masters.

[knackeredII]

I would have thought it was the regulatory authority that determined what was logged and how. It's not for the airline to decide!

Correct me if I'm wrong (but I don't think so).

[flyby797]

Thanks a lot Taildragger. Very instructive document.