BA delay Delhi flight. Crew fatigue

[lizardking]

In a midnight ordeal lasting more than 12 hours for 225 passengers for London, a British Airways flight failed to take off from here when its pilot expressed his inability to fly complaining he did not have proper sleep.

Flight BA 143 was scheduled to leave Delhi at 2.30 am this morning but did not take off after the pilot, Captain William, said he would not fly as he had not had enough sleep, airport sources said.

The pilot said he could not sleep as there was some disturbance in his hotel, the sources said.

All the passengers, who had boarded the flight, were offloaded, leaving many of them fuming.

The airline could not make alternative arrangements for the passengers and the flight was delayed till 3.20 pm today when it took off for London.

British Airways spokeswoman Radhika Raikhy said "the crew hadn't had enough rest. The safety regulations of British Airways doesn't allow them to operate in such conditions.

"The entire crew had a disturbed night," she said.

British Airways apologised for the inconvenience caused to passengers, saying their safety was "paramount" and could not be "compromised".

Sunil Thapar, a traveller on the delayed flight, said most passengers felt British Airways was negligent in its handling of the matter.

"There were hundreds of people going back but they basically asked them to board some buses and just left us to our devices," he said.

[Albert Driver]

So why, exactly, is it a fiasco when a Captain makes a good, safe command decision?

[Middle Seat]

Sounds like the fiasco wasn't the Captain's decision to not fly, but rather BA's handling of the situation. Since what was posted appears to be a news story, its merely sensationalized. It appears the message they're trying to convey is 'How dare they inconvenience 225 passengers?'

As ambulance drivers frequently say, "There's nothing to look at here, people, move along"

[wiggy]

Just a guess but perhaps the DEL flight was supposed about to carry on to somewhere else on the sub-continent/had come in from somewhere else and the "boarded" pax were in fact transit pax.

Incidentally The 143 flight number that lizardking has posted is not the correct one for a flight "for London", I wonder what else in the report is in error :mad:

[TopBunk]

BA only operates point-to-point flights to/from India. The BA143 is LHR-DEL returning as the BA142, at about the time the original poster says.

As to scurrilous, unsubstantiated rumours by the same poster in a later post, I think they (and indeed the poster) are best ignored.

I think that the BA crew rest (certainly for one of the 2 daily services, if not both) has recently moved hotels. It would not be unusual in BA for the company to seize on a cheaper hotel deal only to find out that the hotel is about to embark on a major renovation programme that they neglected to tell the company about, and hence the reason for the cut-rate deal!

Pre-flight rest in the form of good blackout, quiet rooms and temperature control are not a luxury to have but essential for crews operating across multiple time zones.

Unfortunately it is only the message that a cancellation conveys that the company understand if not fully rested, this is what will trigger a full review of the hotel contract and hopefully result in minimising the risk of disruption to future passengers.

[Sallyann1234]

Concise Oxford Dictionary:
"fiasco - noun (pl. fiascos) a ludicrous or humiliating failure."

Very appropriate, it sums up the entire post in five words.

[TopBunk]

Sallyann

A ludicrous or humiliating failure of what or by who? BA, the hotel, someone else? A pretty pointless posting, imho:ugh:

[Sallyann1234]

The original post was a fiasco.
It contained nothing more than gossip and speculation about the BA Captain's sensible and straightforward decision.

[karma mechanic]

I read SallyAnn's post as relating to the original poster's attempt at drumming up a story when there wasn't one. But then what do I know, I'm new !

Oops, crossed posts...

[oildrum]

Albeit my career has come to an end I spent a good few years as a "flying spanner" for an airfreight company, yes thats right mostly flying all night and have suffered just about every indignity hotels have to offer for daytime sleepers.Its really time aircrew only hotels were introduced, totally dark quiet cool rooms, where "DO NOT DISTURB" means just that,and also a 24/7 full breakfast cafe is not really too much to ask for in todays world.I would support my captain 100% in this decision he made.

[wiggy]

Have to agree, the sleeping requirements of most crew involve daytime rest, which often conflicts with the clatter of housekeeping trolleys,hum of vacuum cleaners and the yells of "see you in the lobby" from the guests leaving the adjacent room.
However rumour has it :ok: that the main source of noise in the DEL episode was the racket from a cricket match taking place just outside the hotel....

[Jazbag]

Some companies (like mine) make contracts without consulting the crew representatives and this results in an unfriendly environment for crew. Some hotel staff think they can shortchange us with bad or no service as the company defaults on payments etc. What people who handle the admin dont understand is that a badly rested crew is a flight safety hazard. I have a great respect for a person who knocks out the "why" of an accident investigation due human error before it happens. Kudos for the captain who took this decision!!!!:ok:

[20driver]

Pretty hard to know what really happened here but I have being at the passenger end of similar situations several times.
The vast majority of passengers are not going to quibble with a regulation or a safety issue if it is clearly explained and a course of action with a time frame is offered.
People get worked up when the airline treats them as mushrooms (SLF), kept in the dark and feed sh*it.
There is a lot of emphasis in flying on collecting information, making a decision, evaluating the result and moving on.
Airlines seem to be incapable of doing the same on the ground. No one has clear authority. The check in people usually are the worst informed, (willfully by their employers). Many a time I’ve stood at a gate, no plane in sight with a board announcing we are leaving in 10 minutes!!!!

If the crew was tired and not ready to go, it is a legal issue and that is that. There is no reason that a plan cannot be developed from there. I’d suspect BA does not keep back up crew in Delhi so right away the time frame for a new crew has a minimum dimension.

Makes me wonder what these so called station managers do.


20driver

[TopBunk]

SAllyann

I would appear to have mis-interpreted your posting, it wasn't clear to me your intention, for which I apologise.

20Driver

I’d suspect BA does not keep back up crew in Delhi so right away the time frame for a new crew has a minimum dimension.

BA frequently has no backup flight crew at LHR, and certainly none in Delhi! Even at home base they rely on people answering a phone when not on call and then 'force' them to work on their days off. You don't become one of the worlds most profitable airlines by having spare flight crew.

[The Greaser]

The noise in the Intercontinental over the last 2 days has been dreadful. As mentioned there was a cricket match going on with attendant noise all day and loud music into the night. The hotel is also right next to a railway line and the hotel is undergoing extensive refurbishment. It was a close call as to whether the 256 was also delayed for the same reason as the 142.

[No longer ATC]

Austrian do.....the Greaser is correct, loud cricket match with associated PA/music , combined with much noise from nearby railway conspired to keep most of the crew awake. Other flt nearly delayed for same reason....good call IMHO

[Nov71]

Perhaps the Judgement of Soloman would have been to require the hotel in question to overnight the pax free of charge and let the pax know it was the crew hotel. Not feasible I know and some pax would still want their compo.

I agree with driver22's sentiments re keeping pax reliably informed, otherwise known as customer relations. I too have known the smell of bs and the route it has taken.

[Absolutely Fabulous]

hmmm, is all pax were onboard does that not mean the crew were also onboard? If this is so, then why choose this moment to make a decsion ablut not flying due disturbed rest. Surely that decision should have been made before even leaving the hotel??

[Farrell]

I am sure there have been situations in the past where crews have had disturbed sleep and then got on the crew bus feeling ok....however, other factors between hotel and cockpit can increase fatigue levels to a point where a no-fly decision has to be made.

Getting stuck in traffic on the way, the heat of a place like DEL, stress, pre-flight workload.......the list is endless.

[merlinxx]

The Commander made the correct decision. Check your rules & regs. It is about time that all crew hotels are made to understand & brief all staff as to the requirements. Hotel management are the folks responsible for this situation. Crew (both Flt Deck & Cabin) should have been placed as far away as poss from the external/internal disturbance. BA Country Manager/VIDP Station Manager are the ON SITE folks who should take the can. When acting as overseas SM it was my task/responsibility to ensure that crew rest hotac rules were applied, I had to check & clear for use, the allocated rooms.

Good on ya Captain :ok:

[parkfell]

It would be interesting to know what the Scheduling Agreement has to say about HOTAC arrangements, and why clearly there was non compliance of it.

Penny wise, pound foolish ??

;)

[wiggy]

AFAIK the crews only recently moved to the hotel in question. There had been some issues with hotel renovations and noise from a nearby railway Station but I understand these problems had been resolved. However the noise from the cricket match was an unforseen, or do I mean "unforheard", problem.
Well done to the Captain for making the wise decision. It looks like the blame game has now started, no doubt everyone from Press to the suits trying to pin the delay on the crew.

[lizardking]

“Ours is a five-star hotel and not some local hotel that there would be disturbances.

There was no disturbance on Saturday night and the entire crew was partying that night and this could have been the reason for them not being able to take off,” said Intercontinental Grand Hotel spokesperson after the British Airways crew alleged that the flight to London was delayed because they could not get proper sleep due to disturbance in the hotel.

Two hundred twenty-five passengers of British Airways to London were stranded at the Indira Gandhi International Airport for more than 12 hours on Sunday as the entire crew of the flight BA 143 allegedly indulged in a boozing binge and when it was time to fly the aircraft, they were not in a position to fly.

The flight was scheduled to leave Delhi at 2.30 am yesterday but did not take off after the pilot, Captain William along with his entire crew refused to fly. The crew reasoned that they did not have enough rest due to some disturbance in the hotel.

British Airways spokesperson Radhika Raikhy, however, refuted the allegations. “The safety of passengers is our prime focus and as the entire crew had not slept well because of disturbances in the hotel, the flight did not take off.”

Radhika added that the crew did not have to through medical tests as they had no doubts about their claims.

All the passengers, who had boarded the flight, were offloaded after the midnight drama, leaving many of them fuming.

The airline could not make alternative arrangements for the passengers and the flight was delayed till 2.30 pm on Sunday.

Radhika said that one crew that comes with the flight flies it on return journey. “As the entire crew could not take rest, the flight had to be delayed.”

http://www.mid-day.com/news/nation/2007/april/155545.htm

[wiggy]

Here we go: the blame game, and the very nasty allegations that go with it begin....

[coolkiller13]

My company makes the contarcts without asking to the people who stays in those hotels and we are suffering of the smae problems as well.Allthough i am not fliying on the Er routes making a lot of nightstops all around the country(TURKEY) and some outside stations.Hotel managements think that they can treat crews like as they wish and they have no concern about their rests and comfort.
Noisy hotels hosting big wedding parties,meetings,even aquaparks full of children shouting and screaming on summer season and etc.
Complaining about those issues mostly ignored by the company management and crews are dealing with these problems by their own and starting the duty with their nerves stretched.
Sometimes the location of the hotels are so isolated form the town and when the crews have some time to spend they stuck in the depressing hotel rooms.
We,the flyers must have hotels designed by the needs of the aircrews and accepsts no guests other than flyers.These needs are 7/24 breakfast and dining cafes and restr. laundry services and quite,clean rooms.
Hope we get that in the near future:)

[TopBunk]

“Ours is a five-star hotel and not some local hotel that there would be disturbances.

There was no disturbance on Saturday night and the entire crew was partying that night and this could have been the reason for them not being able to take off,” said Intercontinental Grand Hotel spokesperson after the British Airways crew alleged that the flight to London was delayed because they could not get proper sleep due to disturbance in the hotel.

Sounds to me like the hotel trying to save face.

Q. Is there a main railway lime and station next to the hotel?

Q. Was there a large cricket match with a loud PA system in close proximity to the hotel on the day in question?

Q. Was there loud music being played late into the evening?

I suspect the answer to all the above is YES

Q. Does the hotel have any evidence (signed receipts etc) on crew drinking alcohol in bars within the prohibited period?

I suspect the answer to the above is NO.

You decide the likely cause and who is being economical with the truth and trying to deflect attention. I know where my money sits......

Well done Captain W for making the difficult but correct decision, something more of us should do more often imho.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

“Ours is a five-star hotel and not some local hotel that there would be disturbances...."

If I'd received a dollar for every occasion I've been disturbed by by something/someone in these "five-star" hotels, then I'd have retired from this nonsense a long time ago!

[M.Mouse]

BALPA and BA's hotel procurement people have an excellent working relationship. BA are as keen as the pilots that hotel rest is suitable and able to give proper pre-flight rest for the obvious reasons which are amply demonstrated by this fiasco.

BA pilots are fortunate that hotels are inspected by BALPA reps. prior to contracts being signed and BA does not book a hotel regardless of any concerns BALPA may have. The problem arises when we are not given the rooms often specified in the contract. Hotel managements will lie through their teeth and pretend they are unaware of any special clauses in a contract when they are busy or full and unable to comply. BA will and do cancel a contract and move crew should a hotel prove unsuitable or not adhere to the clauses in the contract.

The captain concerned would have suffered great anguish in complying with the law by not flying without being sufficiently rested. As a fellow captain I can honestly say that none of us willingly disrupts hundreds of fare paying passengers nor gives our long suffering station staff untold grief by causing a delay or cancellation without good reason.

The comments of partying by the hotel management are a disgrace. The days of crews living it up at wild parties only hours before a flight are long, long gone. Awareness of responsibility, awareness of the dangers and the fact that nowadays you will be caught have all contributed to a major change in attitude and behaviour in the last 20 years.

I know for a fact that BA and BALPA are both fully behind the captain who has had the misfortune to be at this storm not of his making.

[reduce to minimum]

I´ve had my fair share of the DEL Intercontinental experience myself.....
Yes, the hotel IS located next to a very busy railway line. If you get a room on that side you can enjoy the train horns every 3-5mins. 24/7. I´ve always refused the suite on that side and moved to a standard room on the non-train side. Don´t need a big room and flatscreen TV - need to get some rest!
The windows in that 5-star Hotel are not of the noise-cancelling type either :ugh:

About half a year ago - when there was heavy construction work going on for a couple of months - we were welcomed with the question when it would be OK for us to endure the noise of the works in progress. Knowing that it´s hard to get the sleeping habbits of an entire crew under one hat, but also understanding the hotels need to get the work done, we agreed to 1pm - 5pm "noise time". Of course, the next day the noise started at 10am and was still omni-present at 7pm (pick-up was somewhere near midnight). Phone rings and the F/O tells me he´s got the manager in his room and if the noise doesn´t stop in 10mins. he´s moving to the Hilton for the next 12hours. Went down to dicover that they were literally working next door to his room with heavy machinery. Talked to the manager on duty - noise diminished after 20mins. Back to my room and in bed - guess what? Noise starts next to my room, but even in better quality than that of the F/O.
That day, we were as close as cancelling the flight for lack of sleep as I´ve ever come so far....

Couple of weeks later: getting some afternoon sleep when being thrown out of bed by the mighty subwoofers outside the hotel lobby. Fearing the worst I tumble down to the front desk, ask for the manager on duty. He tells me not to worry, there will be no noise to disturb our well-deserved sleep. And smiles that Indian smile.
Half an hour later, the party starts with full volume.....no comment....


I know, that noise IS a big problem for crews needing to get some rest during daytime - but for me, Delhi and especially the Intercontinental beats the rest of the world (even those club hotels in the Caribbean).


Good decision by that CPT!

[merlinxx]

Check out their web sit reviews, the one from some folk in ZRH gives an indication. For lizardking, that's just perhaps your Intercon indoc crxp coming out, stay a lizard on my wall and keep the mozies off.

[Profit Max]

“Ours is a five-star hotel and not some local hotel that there would be disturbances.

There was no disturbance on Saturday night and the entire crew was partying that night and this could have been the reason for them not being able to take off,” said Intercontinental Grand Hotel spokesperson after the British Airways crew alleged that the flight to London was delayed because they could not get proper sleep due to disturbance in the hotel.
If the Intercontinental spokes person is telling the truth, BA should start disciplinary action against the crew. If he is not telling the truth, I suggest that the crew and BA sue Intercontinental.

Either way, this needs to be cleared up. By the way, in a thread of Flyertalk, a passenger reports: http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=682931 - the main complaint seems to be that they were more or less left to their own devices and were forced to share rooms, and some even beds in their hotel accommodation.

[Slickster]

Ah, right, so some of the crew met up for a couple of drinks (no doubt in the crew room), having flown all day, and now it has become "the entire crew were partying that night". I flew the Jumbo for 4 years with BA, and, only once had an "entire" crew out. So a group of people, who have just had long and hard day can't meet for a drink?

The impression that press release gives, to me, anyway, is that the crew cancelled the flight because they all felt too shabby after their "partying", the night before, and that, I believe, was the intent of the release. Just deflect the blame somewhere else. Hey! I know - airline crews have been in the news lately for drinking too much, so lets just hint that's that what happened here.

I hope BA cancel the contract, and extract maximum penalties from the hotel. Too many hotels take the p***. Happy enough to accept the crew in the low season, and the guaranteed income, but resent them when they don't spend all their money in the hotel, and when they know they could fill their rooms with different paying customers.

[Big Tudor]

I have had the misfortune to find myself in the bar of this particular hotel. I can't believe that anybody except Bill Gates could actually afford to 'party all night' in there; the prices are ridiculous! :=
It seems from most of the later reports that the passengers main gripe was not what the crew did, but rather the inefficient way the ground staff dealt with the problem. This does not seem to stop certain tabloids from insinuating that the crew packed it in "'cos they were a bit tired." Maybe food for thought for anybody considering using the press to highlight the current issues surrounding work loads, work patterns and fatigue. You probably won't get a sympathetic ear from much of the mainstream press. :hmm:

[Puritan]

Have had same problem at our hotel in Accra (more than once)... i.e. trying to get some pre night-flight sleep whilst a band tunes their instruments (i.e. for a reception being held at the hotel) in the courtyard area directly outside our bedrooms :ugh:

End result? Both us drivers sticking out the zzzz's during the early hours somewhere over Algeria. :eek:

Imho, this was a good call by that Captain! :D

[parabellum]

As the BA crew are certain to know it is a criminal offence in India to drink within twelve hours of a flight so whether they had a party or not is likely to be irrelevant as it would have been all over long before it could be a consideration as to the crews fitness to fly.
Never understand hotels that will pander to a single guest who spends a few nights a year at their hotel but go out of their way to stuff up a crew who are on a very lucrative contract and who are often the sole reason for keeping staff employed during the winter months.
Actually I do understand it, the hotel keeps the local airline staff happy by giving them cheap deals for their families, inviting them for free meals to 'test our new menu' etc. etc. and in the case of India, no doubt money changes hands or jobs are given to family members, though probably not at BA's station manager level.

[apaddyinuk]

Lets also not forget that Crew into india are not allowed to take off alcohol with them so its not likely that the crew simply drank their crew purchase or duty free booze dry in the 24 hours!!!

[Golden Ticket]

The media choose to believe that it was the crew living it up rather than a hotel in a poor location flinging the dirt around. The railway, noise, building work, cricket match is all provable, there's no proof the crew were unfit due to alcohol but you can bet your life the direction the reporting will have taken.

The only thing I believe to be true in the tabloid media these days is the horoscopes.

I think it would be cheaper at our destinations for the company to buy a big house, employ staff and security and keep the crews there. Staff are direct employees of the company, so have vested interest in keeping crew comfortable, no other guests and the company can offset the running costs with increases in property value.

[swordsman]

Well done to the Captain for taking a decision to put the safety of the aircraft number one and ignoring commercial considerations.Well done to BA managment for giving him 100% support.
I trust the pilots will sue the hotel for substantial damages for their defamatory remarks.

[BombayDuck]

A pushier, nastier, grabbier, wanting-wanting, more demanding, ill-mannered, rude and irritating bunch of "passengers" (considered inserting a different adjective there) you'll not easily find.

I agree with that sentiment of Delhiites in general, not just "passengers"

*ducks* :}

Seriously, how stupid are the folks at the Intercontinental to have chosen a site next to the railway station in the first place? As for service, the ones in Bombay are fine, maybe its that thing about Delhiities again!

On the other hand, I cant understand the bit about the cricket match. The premises of the hotel must be large enough for any noise from a match being played - even on the street outside - to be sufficiently lowered.

[John Eacott]

Even more timely is this week's Flight International Editorial, Still dead tired (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/04/17/213258/still-dead-tired-us-safety-agencies.html), revisiting the FAA and its lack of fatigue management.

Good to see the BA crew stand up for commonsense :ok:

[overstress]

The Hotel's slanderous remarks are all the more foolish given that both the pilots in question are in fact teetotallers for various reasons..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: