prospect ? genuine trade union or nats department

[man friday]

i have just had a new watch roster system imposed upon me,17 days before it comes into effect, and have been informed that i can be changed from an afternoon standby shift starting at 1700 to a day shift starting at 10.30 with only 3 hours notice!, and busting my hours

apparently this was negotiated on my behalf by prospect and nats management and agreed without any reference to its members. also it transpires that my agreed overtime rate of time and a half man-fri has been reduced to normal time, again by good old prospect in another back room deal.

is this just a one off effect of them getting too much sun and cheap beer down here on fantasy island, or is it standard prospect policy to shaft its members without even the decency to offer a reach round!!!!!!

[radarman]

mf,
I warned you when I went off duty this afternoon that I was leaving you a time-bomb! I was astounded yesterday when I found that the three hour notice of shift change had been agreed behind our backs by the union. But to get back to the title of your thread - I think you know the answer when you consider that the Glasgow mafia that visit us from time to time for cheap Rioja and sunshine, purporting to represent us, actually turn out to be NATS employees! What is the phrase that NATS use to describe their working relationship with the unions? Something like 'working together', or 'working in harmony'. Says it all, doesn't it. :mad:

[BAND4ALL]

Stop moaning on here, become a rep and find out how difficult it is to represent people like you!:ok:

[Lon More]

What's this got to do with ATC?:}

Whatever happened to the NATS forum?

[Get me some traffic]

Why should this be on a NATS Forum? Prospect represents non-NATS controllers also, eg ME!

[Me Me Me Me]

also it transpires that my agreed overtime rate of time and a half man-fri has been reduced to normal time, again by good old prospect in another back room deal.

I'm no part of Prospect but I believe I would know if this was the case... and I have no knowledge of it. Find it extremely unlikely unless you have changed grade.

What is the phrase that NATS use to describe their working relationship with the unions? Something like 'working together', or 'working in harmony'. Says it all, doesn't it.

It's 'Working Together' and there have been murmurs within TU ranks to withdraw from it over past management behaviours

[notared]

If you are rostered for an afternoon standby don't answer your phone before 0730

[radarman]

notared,
I wish it was as simple as that. We've not had it properly explained to us by management (on leave), and the only information currently available has come from the guy who does our rosters. It's too complicated to explain it all here, but the crux of the matter is that NATS/Prospect have agreed a flexibility deal behind our backs. With typical NATS arrogance (no consultation, no explanation from management, no vote, imposed at 17 days notice), controllers are deemed to have accepted a scheme whereby if a morning controller phones in sick at 0730, the guy rostered for the third evening position is called in for a day duty starting at 1030. 'Deeming to have accepted' this deal means that the afternoon guy can't make any arrangements or commitments for the morning because he may get called in for 1030. That means he effectively does five/six hours standby before the start of his rostered shift at 1600. No compensation, just the perk that when rostered for the third morning slot he can come in at 0900 instead of 0730.What annoyed manfriday, and most others here, is the way we were taken for granted by this incestuous NATS/Prospect conglomerate. It seems that Prospect, far from looking after our interests, were in fact party to a back-room deal that benefitted only NATS.

[rab-k]

Ouch!

Not how things of that nature should be done by the sounds of it.

(Pssst...What's the script re. legislation and 'Wildcat Strikes' in your part of the world? Powodzenia! - :E)

[man friday]

me,me,me, we became part of the greater nats empire,with its dreams of world conquest, in jan 2006.the changes of which i speak wont affect you as you work for nats uk, not its poor back street relation nats global domination
as part of our integration into nats the unions have achieved the following for us
overtime reduced from time and a half to normal time(mon-fri)
changed working practices( detrimental to us)
a mickymouse rostering system
not enough assistants to run said michel mouse roster (unless no one takes leave or goes sick!)
WHAT they have failed to negotiate
same leave entitlement as nats staff( couldnt take it even if we got it due to staff shortage+micky mouse roster)
UHP ( not enough profit in contract)
the allowances that uk staff recieve( see above)
fixed times for shifts to end( rostered till 23.00 but expected to stay till 0000 plus if scheduled flights run late)
correct manning levels for unit to run effectively + staff able to take leave
the union officials swan down here, stay in the best hotel, wine and dine on expenses, and then provide us with a smoke and mirror presentation, to disguise the fact that theyre cherry picking the best T+c's from the nats handbook for nats management's benefit, and ignoring whats beneficial for us,there members.
forgive my naivety on buisiness matters, but to claim theres not enough profit in the contract to pay for sufficient staff to run said contract is a pretty F'#/.@g sorry excuse, a sorry excuse that were getting verry tired of hearing.
prospect claims to be a trade union,start representing your members,and not NATS

[eyeinthesky]

Economics are economics.

If there is not enough money to support a competitive contract, then that contract may well be won by another company next time around. If part of the cause of the unacceptable cost of the contract is because the union has dug their heels in for the rights of the workers and those workers are now not employed, how would you feel then?

That does not detract from the rights you have to be properly informed of the changes to your working practice.

[man friday]

eyeinthesky,
economics are economics true, my gripe is that for 12 years serco ran the contract with a sufficient number of assistants to run the watches,take leave, and even be able to take a day off sick if required, and presumably make a pound or two out of the deal. we run a 3 watchsystem, 2 assistants per watch
since nats has added us to their empire the numbers have been culled( as per nats policy as a result of new technology) we now have 6 fully trained and 1 partially trained assistant. the only way leave can be taken is if overtime is worked, and i for one am getting tired of badgering people at 7.30 on their days off to see if anyone is prepared to loose a precious day off to cover for sickness. the other alternative is shutting the airport.
as for new technology 16 months down the line were all still waiting!!!! it appears the robotic assistant is still in the development phase, or are clone's growing in test tubes somewhere!
the unions claimed theyd show the staff how to make a roster work with the new numbers, their roster guru came down, got a tan, had a beer or two and then left. suprise suprise even he couldnt produce a working roster. nothing has been heard from the unions on the subject since.
in this post thatcherite world i appreciate contracts are bid for and won for profit, but somewhere someones dropped a bollock on this one

[BDiONU]

in this post thatcherite world i appreciate contracts are bid for and won for profit, but somewhere someones dropped a bollock on this one
With all due respect it would appear not to have been NATS. The airport is still open and NATS are making money.

BD

[man friday]

BDiONU,

sadly the airport has had to be closed due to lack of staff, and will i fear close again, as goodwill is becoming as scarce as assistants themselves.this never happened in 12 years with serco.

as for your second point i have no doubt nats are making money,but at what long term cost?

[feinwerkbau]

According to PCS (the assistants' union) the assistants @LXGB have no goodwill!!! Or words to that effect....they really know how to keep their paying members happy!!!:mad:

NATS are lucky the airfield hasn't had to close down in the past couple of weeks due to sickness. I'm sure having the airlines banging on their door won't be pleasant when this 'lack of goodwill' from the assistants becomes even worse!! I'm sure management have some master plan somewhere that us mere mortals don't understand......then again it might be in the same place as the magic assistant roster where everyone can have leave and we can run on half an assistant........:ugh:

[BDiONU]

NATS are lucky the airfield hasn't had to close down in the past couple of weeks due to sickness. I'm sure having the airlines banging on their door won't be pleasant
Having upset customers will certainly be a wake up call as, from everything I've read so far, the staff are content (apart from some belly aching in this forum) to continue to work the hours etc.

BD

[man friday]

depends on your interpritation of content. i always thought it refered to someone who had a joy or happiness about their day to day life,a feeling of well being
not someone whos told that they do have 36 days leave but cant take it not when they want,but at all.
or feel obliged to cover if someone goes sick, thus giving up a day off and working 9 days out of 10.
or openly look for another job because they're at the end of their
tether,having worked like this for 16months with no sign of improvement.
belly aching, us,it must just be a sign of how content and happy we all are down here on fraggle rock

[BDiONU]

openly look for another job because they're at the end of their tether,
This is what I was alluding to. Whilst you guys continue to work as you are what impetus is there for NATS senior contract manager to change things? None. I can just imagine her counting her bonus saying "Those guys in Gibraltar, all fart and no follow through!"
I realise you're in a catch 22, no changes on the horizon until staff start voting with their feet. But if you vote with your feet you've got no job.

BD

[man friday]

which brings me nicely back to the start of the thread.i always thought that trade unions looked out for their members, and provided them with backing against management when they needed it.

as you so nicely put it prospect dont even seem to want to fart for us let alone follow through.

[BDiONU]

as you so nicely put it
I'm an ex-military ATCO, the military have always enjoyed employing rather colourful phrases of speech :)

BD
You don't manage people; you manage things. You lead people. - Admiral Grace Hooper

[feinwerkbau]

Stand outside the tower and watch all those happy faces walking into work:E :eek: :oh: :* or then again you might not spot any happy, cheerful NATS employees @LXGB............

[Startrek]

I thought all the ATCOs at Gib and the ATCAs at Gib voted strongly in favour of your 3 year pay deal and were pleased to take the NATS pension terms?:confused:

[radarman]

We may have 'accepted' the deal, but it was offered on a 'take it or leave it' basis. NATS screwed up the bid for the contract, and once overheads are added there is no profit. :\ The pay deal was offered on the basis that the extra pay would have to be offset by natural wastage losses for the assistants. Those losses are now filtering down to the point that the airport is currently staying open only because assistants are working overtime. Came within a hair's breadth of closing last Sunday and Monday when one went sick.
Under SERCO they were paid peanuts, got no overtime, and were generally treated like dog's droppings. But they all pulled together as a team and were always willing to stand in for a sick colleague. Now NATS/Prospect have given a welcome pay deal, and are paying overtime, but everybody is p1ssed off, on the verge of refusing to work overtime (= airfield closing) and couldn't give a damn about the company. Probably because NATS have spent nearly 18 months p1ssing us about by cherry-picking various terms and conditions to suit themselves. One moment we are told we should be proud to be part of the company, then when we refer to the staff handbook we are told it doesn't apply to us. Except when the company wants something from us, and then conveniently refers us back to the handbook. Neither NATS nor Prospect will give us a clue about where we stand with the company, and there will be a rebellion soon.

BD - if you are reading this, my compliments to Admiral Hooper, but there's no point in leading people if they don't follow. Maybe I should point this out to PB, but he hasn't got the guts to come out here and sit on a bar stool.

[man friday]

startrek,

of course we are happy to have a pension, but bearing in mind we had one with serco of a similar benefit level forgive me for not overdoing the gratitude.

as for the pay deal as radarman said it was a take it or leave it. also tied into it were,

disciplinary/grievence procedure,
maternity/paternity/adoption benefits
attendance policy
equal opportunities policy
notice period
mobility
drugs/alcohol policy

if we didnt accept the pay deal the above would be withdrawn.

[BDiONU]

Seems to me, from the little you guys have written, that you want your cake and eat it. You wanted the paydeal etc. and knew there was going to be a downside and now the reality has come home to roost.
as for the pay deal as radarman said it was a take it or leave it.
Ahem, no-one held a gun to your head or twisted your arm up your back. You made a choice.

BD

[man friday]

Choice..................
remind me again of the concept of choice
all i would like is to have the correct number of staff to run my shift.i do not want to have to call staff at 7.30 on their days off to try and cover a rosta that doesnt work
it would be greatly appreciated to know where i stand in relation to my terms and conditions. all i have is a letter dated jan 2006 welcoming me to nats. and that its the staff handbook only aplies to me when it suits management.
i once again will not be able to take my leave entitlement as we do not have the staff to cover.
and finally if i'm rostered to work till 23.00 i would like to go home to my family at that time and not be expected to work extra hours for gratis becouse the operators cant make their schedule.
correct no one held a gun to my head, but also no one is going to pay my mortgage

[feinwerkbau]

As for the culling of assistants (part of the paydeal), we were told it would happen once new technology was introduced that would mean less manpower would be needed. To date I haven't seen any new technology @LXGB, unless is invisible to the naked eye............:ugh:

Doesn't matter........people just won't go sick or take any leave.......:mad:

[BDiONU]

Choice..................
remind me again of the concept of choice
You choose to do something, or you don't.
all i would like is to have the correct number of staff to run my shift.i do not want to have to call staff at 7.30 on their days off to try and cover a rosta that doesnt work
Obviously it does work, you're making it. So no 'pressure' on management to change things.
it would be greatly appreciated to know where i stand in relation to my terms and conditions. all i have is a letter dated jan 2006 welcoming me to nats.
In the UK its the law to have an employment contract. But you're not in the UK so I don't know where you stand.
and finally if i'm rostered to work till 23.00 i would like to go home to my family at that time and not be expected to work extra hours for gratis becouse the operators cant make their schedule.
If you had a contract you'd know your hours. If flights were delayed due staff shortages that would grab management attention.
correct no one held a gun to my head, but also no one is going to pay my mortgage
I say again, choice. Your choice to continue to work as you do and your remedy seems to be whinging about it in this forum. :=

BD

[radarman]

BD,
Reading between the lines of your posts I could almost say you are inciting us to strike! Yes, we are making things work by stretching the elastic to breaking point. But at least that shows we are professional enough, and sufficiently considerate of passengers, not to throw our toys out of the cot and close the airport, which is what you seem to want us to do. Is your surname Scargill by any chance? :E
Unfortunately, being professional plays right into the hands of management, so the only way my colleagues can let off steam is through the auspices of PPRuNe.

[man friday]

bd,

at least by "whinging on this forum" as you so eloquentley put it, i can now add the quotes of Admiral Grace Hooper to my cocktail party reparte.

Got any other good ones?

[radar707]

Quote:
and finally if i'm rostered to work till 23.00 i would like to go home to my family at that time and not be expected to work extra hours for gratis becouse the operators cant make their schedule.

Then just close the airfield and have doen with it, what better way to get the attention of NATS senior management! Other places do it, why not Gib?

[flower]

Unfortunately the only way NATS management may take true note of your grievances is to work to rule, that doesn't diminish your professional standing in the eyes of other ATCOs or at least it shouldn't.
A certain unit did that a few years ago regarding overtime, shut the airport for short periods of time on a number of days, problem very soon got addressed. Working to your hours and terms does not mean striking which I think most of us would only do over a very significant issue ie pensions , just doing your proper hours and not making it work at whatever cost could well be the best way forward for you at this stage. NATS doesn't like headlines in the newspapers.

[BDiONU]

BD,
Reading between the lines of your posts I could almost say you are inciting us to strike! <snip> Is your surname Scargill by any chance? :E
God forbid, with that hairstyle! ;) Actually I'm very sympathetic to your plight and have been playing Devils advocate to some extent.
Unfortunately, being professional plays right into the hands of management, so the only way my colleagues can let off steam is through the auspices of PPRuNe.
I think the posts from other NATS staff following yours says it all really.

Regards
BD

[BDiONU]

i can now add the quotes of Admiral Grace Hooper to my cocktail party reparte.
Got any other good ones?
"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Sir Winston Churchill

Leadership is a potent combination of strategy and character. But if you must be without one, be without the strategy. Anon

It doesn't take a hero to order men into battle. It takes a hero to be one of those men who goes into battle. Anon


General Norman Schwarzkopf's Eleven Commandments for Managers
You must have clear goals. - You must be able to articulate them clearly to others.
Give yourself a clear agenda. - Every morning write the five most important things to accomplish that day, and get those five done.
Let people know where they stand.
What's broken, fix now. - Don't put it off. Problems that aren't dealt with only lead to more problems.
No repainting the flagpole. - Make sure all the work your people are doing is essential to the organization.
Set high standards. - People won't generally perform above your expectations, so it's important to expect a lot.
Lay the concept out, but let your people execute it. - Tell them in the clearest terms what you want done, but let them suggest the best way to do it.
People come to work to succeed. - So don't operate on the principle that if they aren't watched and supervised, they'll bungle up the job.
Never lie. - Ever.
When in charge, take command. - Some leaders who feel they don't have adequate information put off deciding to do anything at all. The best policy is to decide, monitor the results, and change course if it's necessary.
Do what's right. - The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it.

If you quote those at a cocktail party you'll probably come across as some sort of military cabbage ;)

BD

[radarman]

flower,
Thanks for your advice about working to rule, and working our hours and terms. The trouble is we are so confused by NATS/TUPE/Prospect all telling us different things that we don't know which rules to work to. :confused: Nobody is willing to give us guidance on hours (apart from the overall 50 hrs in 6 days), and we've got two often contradictory sets of T&C's. So, nice idea son, but (like most things here on Monkey Rock) it ain't going to work.

[radar707]

Radarman, if your shift ends at 23:00 then it ends at 23:00, you can close the airport and go home end of story. If traffic is en route to you to arrive after that time then it's just tough and they will have to divert.

[45 before POL]

i sympathise with the guy/girls @lxgb, especially when the goalposts are moved to suit management. Somewhere must be a list of contracted hours(Nats seem to be hot on this at the other units) Lacc shifts are based on hours over a year rather than days. yes working 2 hours later than plan is not what anyone expects, and secondly, do your shifts in Gib come under schratco or have they dodged that? :suspect: Worth looking into the smallprint. And as to the contract of employment? it is a legal right and requirement!!! call Hr for a copy, if you not seen one you will be amazed what can be hidden within.(sometimes to your benefit);)

[Me Me Me Me]

Just as a point of interest... NATS are actually making next to **** all money from the contract. They do protest that the belt must remain very tight due to such tiny profit margins. However (bit off topic):

1. If it makes any profit at all its doing better than most of their airports
2. It'd make a much bigger profit if they accounted for the actual cost of pension provision, rather than the inflated theoretical cost that they dont pay due to the solid performance of a scheme they want to close.

I know one PCS rep who was appalled at some of the T's & C's out there when we took over. Had hoped things would be improving for you guys by now. :confused:

[man friday]

things have just got interesting, one of our atcas has resigned, so keep your eyes open for those lxgb closed due to staff shortage notams!!!!

[feinwerkbau]

Can I send the 1st lxgb closed due to staff shortage notam?!?!?! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!! I've always wanted to send one of those :E :E :D I'll even come in on my day off just to send the notam :ok:

[radarman]

feinwerkbau,

The deputy GM called you a communist. Now we know it's true! :E :E :E

[feinwerkbau]

Radarman

Just thought I'd live up to my communist name!!!:E :E :E :E

[man friday]

the revolutions coming comrades, wheres my red flag

[rab-k]

wheres my red flag

Not the red and yellow one, surely...:E

[man friday]

your a bad man rab-k !!!!

[rab-k]

Sorry - couldn't resist.

Borrow one of these instead - just as likely to cause a riot:

http://es.geocities.com/aingast/index23_archivos/image057.gif

[man friday]

just had a memo from management announcing that the plan to cover staff shortages is for the relief controller to cover switchboard and help with the flight planning, whilst the solitary atca of the shift covers the local position! a direct violation of an agreement between management and prospect,no doubt once again the lack of profit in the contract will be cited as the reason. at the same time weve just had a notice put up announcing 18 GMs from nats are having a nice meeting in gib ( 18 x airfare, hotels etc) and are taking the staff out for meals and drinks at the rock hotel( not the cheapest place in gib) for a company with no cash to cover the required operational positions, theyve found a few grand for a jolly boys,

at least ill have some small talk for them with your quotes BD

[MrJones]

at the same time weve just had a notice put up announcing 18 GMs from nats are having a nice meeting in gib ( 18 x airfare, hotels etc) and are taking the staff out for meals and drinks at the rock hotel( not the cheapest place in gib) for a company with no cash to cover the required operational positions, theyve found a few grand for a jolly boys,
Yes while T&C for staff are being screwed down left right and centre NATS does seem to splash cash about on everything else.

To get back to the original post; I'm no longer a member of Prospect so at least I'm not subsidizing that particular NATS department.

[feinwerkbau]

Don't forget there's also a meal at Bianca's with drinks at The Ship. Much cheaper than The Rock Hotel though....:suspect:

[stag1]

first thing u should do is resign from prospect,I did years ago it was the best prospect has done for me nearly 200 pound annual increase!They are useless and only look after some of their members,it all depends where you work.
I would work until 2300 and then close.Join a gib union TGWU or something as a group,resign from prospect now.

[niknak]

Very clever idea Stag - you're not NATS Management are you?

Joining any other union would utterly pointless, as, as far as I am aware, Prospect are the only Union which NATS give official recognition to when it comes to ATC staff.

Prospect are by no means perfect, but instead of bitching here, members should bitch directly to Prospect HQ (you don't have to go through the local Rep).

[stag1]

I am aware of prospect being the only recognised union by NATS,but its obvious that in Gib the ATC staff isn't being treated like the staff in the UK.I Know Gib and how things work there.If all controllers seeked help from a local union and went to NATS asking for clarification about their T's and C's they'd get it.Serco recognised NO unions and more than once they had to answer to union requests.Not all countries have spineless unions.

[man friday]

its just come to light that our unit Prospect rep has been berrated by prospect for refusing to work past the airfield closing time of 23.00. Aparrently overtime is NOT optional but compulsary

i think that just about says it all about this so called union

[flower]

Berated by the Union !!! not sure what to say to that except have you checked your contract to see if it is written down as compulsory attendance. If so someone wrote a real boo boo on that.

Not at all surprised you are having problems with the Union, I last week wrote to Paul Noon as I am getting nowhere with them, not even the courtesy or replies to questions or even acknowledgement of questions. I have been asking for some 6 plus months and as yet they haven't answered me. I am considering contacting Trading Standards to find out if the Union is in Breach of contract as i pay them every month for a service I'm not currently getting, but also am getting my MP involved. Maybe that will make them respond to me.

[radarman]

Stag1,

Thanks for your suggestion of asking NATS for clarification of T&C's. But I have already done that. Got a reply that they were having a meeting on May 14th and would let me know the answer during that week. You've guessed - not a peep. Then our GM announced that a HR person was coming out and would be able to answer my queries. Managed to speak to HR person for a couple of minutes before she flew back to UK on first flight. Hadn't a clue as to what I was talking about, took a few notes, and promised to get back to me. Three weeks later I'm still waiting. And this is in a company voted one of the best 100 to work for!

[radarman]

What manfriday didn't mention was that the union rep berated for not working overtime was the same one who was told by Prospect a couple of months earlier that overtime was not compulsory. The union has had to perform this rapid 'bout turn because they have just realised they have scored the most magnificent own goal. The MOD contract with NATS requires the company to provide ATC services outside published airfield hours to cover operational requirements and delays to scheduled flights. However, NATS and Prospect in their infinite wisdom have decreed that such extensions would be classed as overtime. Since there is nothing in our T&C's that requires us to work overtime, controllers have the choice whether to work the extra time or not. Some have recently refused, and this has led to perfectly justified protests from the MOD and airlines that NATS are reneging on their contractual liability to provide these extensions to service. Hence the belated turn round by Prospect.