GAR comments and improvements

[Fuji Abound]

On another thread there has been some discussion about the GAR procedure about which I was critical.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=270784

In consequence I wrote to the local constabulary.

Complete credit where credit is due because .. .. ..

The local officer responsible for these issues actually took the trouble to telephone me and we had a very constructive conversation about the current arrangements, how these work and the specific error in the form mentioned on the other thread.

He then suggested we should meet to discuss the arrangements from a pilot’s perspective and also their ideas for improving the current arrangements. I said I would be delighted to assist.

Well done to the local constabulary - it seems to me it is often amazing to get the courtesy of a reply these days from so many companies and organisations, let alone a personal call.

SO, if you have any thoughts about how the present arrangements could be improved please let me know and I shall be only to pleased to pass them on and hopefully we can secure an improvement in the way the system works.

[dsandson]

My view on this, and its a purely local view, being based in Northern Ireland, is that its an anachronism to need to inform the SB of a flight from NI, to the mainland UK. In all fairness, it is a purely domestic flight, for which a mandatory flightplan would be be adequate considering the overwater leg.

As for flight to the Republic of Ireland, their authorities require neither notice of arrival nor departure as long as flight is within the common travel area. Whilst the old reason of 'Prevention of terrorism' is always used, in reality the risk of weapons/people smuggling, etc is now relatively low. Even without the GAR, it would still be much easier and simpler to do using surface transport, for which there is no requirement for Id.

The reality is when you give the police a power, they are always highly reluctant to let go of it. The only real means of changing their minds is bringing it the attention of the public through the media. Unfortunately the flying community just wouldnt have the clout... but try bringing it to the attention of the local CBI and that might change!

In this day and age, a flight plan 1 hour in advance should suffice.
dsandson

[IO540]

The least they could do is an online GAR website like this one

http://www.wiltshire.police.uk/portsunit/garform.asp

Any half good web designer could knock this up in a few days from scratch, and have the server printing off the form on some printer on the internal network.

Ideally, the notice period should go down to a few hours or go away totally.

I don't see any logic in this because no terrorist is going to declare his intentions! The only possible explanation is that (a) "dodgy people" are not aware their activities are known and (b) they travel under their real identities (always the easiest way) and this makes it easy to track them.

[BackPacker]

I'm busy planning my first flight from mainland Europe to the UK, and the whole concept of the GAA is very daunting. Depending on where you fly from and where you fly to there are four different notification periods (3, 4, 12, 24 hours), three organizations (Customs, Immigration, Police) that may or may not need your details, a zillion fax numbers and there's another thread here somewhere suggesting that half of these fax numbers are outdated anyway.

For starters, why not include two simple tables instead of the masses of text there are now. One table about arriving in the UK, the other departing the UK. Horizontal axis: to/from a customs airfield, a GAA airfield, a non-GAA (private) field. Vertical axis: To/from the CTA, the EU and non-EU countries. And then in the table you list which organization needs to be involved and their notification period. (And in a few cases, such as non-GAA to non-EU, forbidden altogether.)

But my preference would be a single web site where I input my origin and destination, and it determines automatically who needs the info, and gives me the notice period required. Failing that, a pdf form which can be filled in on the computer and an e-mail address to send the filled-in pdf to. And failing that, a single fax number to fax the form to, and someone at the other end to sort it out.

My experience so far is that if you're flying in from mainland Europe to any field in the UK, your best bet is to fax the form to the field you're flying to. They'll send it to the proper authorities in time.

From a design point of view, the "Home Address" field is on the smallish side and why is the "via" important on departure but not on arrival. What is required in the "via" field anyway? An airport, a VOR or other waypoint? And why do you use three different fonts (and ugly ones at that too)? Oh, and on the back there's a big grey bar. Initially this looked like a divider between two sections. I only found out much later that it contained the most important fax number of them all.

Also what needs to be made clearer is what happens if your flight is delayed for some reason. Do I re-fax another form, is there any way I can cancel a GAR form once sent? Or are customs waiting for me needlessly, or do they have access to FPL data with my revised ETA?

Other than the rant above, I really do like the concept where you can fly into and out from the UK other than via a customs airfield, provided that certain criteria are met and a reasonable notification period is taken into account. And in an ideal world, the UK would subscribe to the Schengen agreement and all that would be required would be a flight plan sent 1 hour in advance.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

[ifonly]

Well Fuji's managed to get one constabulary to listen - only 42 more to go !!!

[Fuji Abound]

Thank you so far.

Please keep your views coming - I promise I will pass them all on.

The meeting is in just over a weeks time.

I will also let you know how it goes.

Some of the issues of course relate to out dated legislation. I have also written to my local MP (who I also happen to know well) to see if we can get such outdated legislation changed soon. I will let you know what response I receive.

Well Fuji's managed to get one constabulary to listen - only 42 more to go !!!

Dont despair their is also a promise of them sharing information and procedures in the future.

[Mad Girl]

I0540 said....
I don't see any logic in this because no terrorist is going to declare his intentions! The only possible explanation is that (a) "dodgy people" are not aware their activities are known and (b) they travel under their real identities (always the easiest way) and this makes it easy to track them.


I went to a talk on forced landings and we had our local police GAR man also add on to the talk, as he has a good relationship with our club - It was the first time I'd heard about this requirement as I'm only a student :{ .

One thing that came out of this talk was NOT that they want to keep tabs on us... the honest & legal people..... but that they wanted to "eliminate" us from the numerous tracks from abroad and therefore can focus on the "unidentified" to investigate under the anti-terrorism regs.

Just thought I'd add this slant to the discussion. :8

[IO540]

That explanation doesn't wash, MG, otherwise why the 12hr notice and why are flights to/from mainland Europe exempt?

I think this is a "jobsworth" scheme which goes back many years and the coppers don't want to let go of anything.

[dublinpilot]

Major improvement:
One central website where I complete the form online. It is then automatically distributed to the appropriate agencies (recognising the appropriate police authority from the airport code, or forcing me to pick one if it's an unrecognised code).

I should then get a confirmation page, with confirmation number and time, listing the agencies to which the details are distributed. I now have only had to complete the form once, and have proof that I have submitted it, and the time that I have submitted it, and don't even have to know which authority/district needs to get it.


Minor improvement:
If only a minor improvement could be made, then perhaps a list of each police area, and showing the airports that they cover would be VERY useful to us foreigners who don't know UK counties very well ;) It's often a struggle to find with district to send the form to.

dp

[flybymike]

Just for the record Fuji,and since no one else seems to have said it. Thank you for taking this initiative. I hope something good comes out of it for us all.:D

[englishal]

Can't some clever boffin set up a web site whereby we can enter our details once. Then the server determins our local police force (from airfield) and uses a fax gateway to send the forms? It would be a useful service and I'd pay for it.

Say charge a joining fee of £10 and then 20p per transmission with pre-paid accounts.

Maybe I'll do it.....though it may take me some time!;)

Edit:

If we had user accounts you could store most of the details for quick retrieval and make the process very easy. You could setup email confirmations and notifications etc..................................

Watch this space :)

[IO540]

A www/email to fax gateway is straightforward; a week's programming at most.

The problem is that there is no real confirmation of delivery, which you get from a direct fax which you send yourself. PC Plod won't give a flying **** if you show him an email confirming that the fax was actually sent...

This is why I send out the GAR from a laptop with winfax on it, and a GSM/GPRS card. It's a pain, but when it's sent you know it's sent. A PC fax like this is also dead handy for faxing foreign airports for PPR etc; many or most airports in Europe are actually PPR and the further south you go the worse it gets. Many are 5 days PPR, some longer.

[Fuji Abound]

1. Just wanted to get this one back on top in case there are any other comments before I have tea and biscuits with the boys in blue,

2. Englishal, if you will let me know what you have in mind by PM and I will pass it on,

3. I am also seeing my local MP next week who has agreed to consider what amendments may be needed to this whole area of legislation given the dramatic way in which the current threat has changed. I will pass on any views you may have.

[flybymike]

Great stuff Fuji. Best of luck