London Fis - How Do You Manage?

[BEagle]

Having had the occasion to use London FIS recently, I cannot imagine how they manage to keep their cool when dealing with the stunningly appalling level of competence shown by many users of the frequency. It doesn't help that there are so few available frequencies, but the RTF discipline of all but a few users is beyond belief. For example, it took nearly a minute to get some thick idiot to understand what 'Squawk 1177 Mode Charlie' meant....

It was so bad on Saturday that we left he frequency and were able to get a RIS from East Midlands and climb into IMCinstead of battling it out with all the 'lunch at Le Touquet' brigade.

Could we not have a dedicated frequency for the Channel crossers - to allow the rest of us the access to a flight information service when needed? At the moment London FIS seems to be being used primarily as a reporting system for the South East Lunch Club!

But hats off to all the good folk at London FIS for keeping their tempers when dealing with so many total idiots!

[chevvron]

There used to be not one, but two agencies which were part dedicated to channel crossers, one from Lydd Approach (in the days when they had full time instead of part time ATC) and the other from Kent Radar (Manston) which was a civil element provided by NATS working in the RAF Approach Radar room. I think Lydd only had a Decca 424 so they were unable to provide radar service to crossers, whereas Manston used to have an AR1 (could have even been a 1b) followed by a Watchman.

[ComJam]

BEagle,

Just go VFR, lookout the window and don't talk to anyone, much quieter and you don't have to listen to people's life stories on London! :}

[BEagle]

Normally I would have done. But this was a training trip and I wanted the student to cope with RT, beacon bashing and IF as she is working up to starting her CPL/IR course.

Yesterday a student on a solo navigation exercise had difficulty with the aircraft radio on the way to Leicester (had forgotten how to dial up 25 KHz frequencies). He couldn't get a word in edgewise with London FIS to ask them to let Leicester (with whom he'd booked in prior to departure) know he was non-radio. So, sesnibly, went to D&D to ask for their help - then phoned in after landing to be rebriefed.

It would be soooo nice to be able to obtain 'information' on London Information instead of having to listen to Golf Alfa Lunch Le Touquet and his pals passing their life history! Normally in that 'Norman the gnome' John Major-esque accent.....

[fisbangwollop]

QUOTE..."Just go VFR, lookout the window and don't talk to anyone, much quieter and you don't have to listen to people's life stories on London! "


OR


Just fly north to Scotland and get the usual friendly service from the guys operating 119.875mhz.

[ShyTorque]

Agree with you, Beagle, it's certainly getting no better. Seems to me that the 'plummier' the accent, the worse the R/T is on those particular frequencies (perhaps some of these radio calls are recorded messages or spoof injects, for the benefit of ATC 'Trappers').

I don't use the service unless there is no alternative at all. :ugh:

[aluminium persuader]

Hey CJ!

Y'might say "Gonnae no dae that!" :E

[Heliplane]

Slightly off topic, I know, but if you think the radio chatter on London Info is bad, try listening at Le Touquet itself. There's a mixture of French and English spoken, people cutting others off at every turn in the circuit, dreadful airmanship and generally a very dangerous situation all round - so much so that LFAT is not high on my list of lunchtime destinations any more.

[fireflybob]

What a sad state of affairs that we cannot get pilots to use the RT correctly! Bit of a reflection on the "system" I say. What with CAP 413 as amended from time to time, RT training and the RT test, one hours "instruction" required to maintain a PPL (unless you renew by test) - surely the standards should be better than they were? Doesnt say much for the CAA system either!

Perhaps we should have RT "police". This system was used in the military for a while (maybe still is) at flying training airfields. One (lucky!) instructor would have the job of sitting in the tower for the day monitoring all RT calls. If anything was non-standard he would contact said pilot after landing to discuss same in a "friendly" manner. Very often the pilot was quite unaware of what he had actually said. After this system was introduced RT standards rapidly rose to a high standard.

[FantomZorbin]

Fireflybob,

"Perhaps we should have RT "police"."

Reminds me of the days of IRIS (Inspectorate of Radio Installations and Services). A Valletta would cruise around and, amongst other things, ask fatuous questions of military ATC units just to check out correct RT phraseology and use of the Flight Information Publications - until the day they left their transmitter on permanent TX:\ ... it all seemed to "die a death" after that (a coincidence more than likely!)

[Kirstey]

While I agree with your sentiment in general Beagle.. Crossing the channel should be a time to call London Information. Although a Flight INFORMATION Service isn't required on a general basis.. an ALERTING service accross the channel is vital.

"Golf Charlie Romeo Alpha Papa - Headcorn to Headcorn via Headcorn currently abeam Headcorn, estimate Headcorn at 12" on the other hand could manage with a listening watch!

[fireflybob]

Kirstey I think Beagle was really referring to the poor standard of RT rather than the legitimate use of the FIS frequency.

[Kirstey]

Well I have to agree there too!!

It's not just London that has to deal with this though. All units that deal with light aircraft have to put up with this don't you think?

I have a friend who goes to France a lot and insits on giving an estimate for the IFR boundary??????????????? when giving a position report she usually gets the town name correct.. But north south east west? she has a 1 in 4 chance of getting it correct!

her problem.. she pushes the tit makes the straightforward part of her call...THEN reaches the complex bit and has no idea what to say!!

the solution? make it part off the biennual revalidation process in the PPL.. get the examiner to do a mini exam before they sign the paperwork,

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<with unfortunatly, bad bad bad radio skills used,>>

What, on a par with your written English skills??? :O:O

[Toadpool]

It's not just London that has to deal with this though. All units that deal with light aircraft have to put up with this don't you think?

Agree with this 100%

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Perhaps we should have RT "police". >>

There is such a system for controllers. Every so often one's competency examiner will have a copy made of one's recent R/T and telephone conversations and there follows a debrief when any problems are discussed. It doesn't happen for pilots though!

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

<<Perhaps we should have RT "police". >>

There is such a system for controllers. Every so often one's competency examiner will have a copy made of one's recent R/T and telephone conversations and there follows a debrief when any problems are discussed. It doesn't happen for pilots though!

Hey Bren try telling my cadet F/Os that and they will disagree :) I try to do my bit to improve R/T with our rookies!

[LEGAL TENDER]

It doesn't happen for pilots though!

Perhaps because their priorities are aviate navigate communicate in that order.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Good on yer, Sir H. Keep it up.

[fireflybob]

Some of the R/T I hear from some professionals makes me cringe!

Here is an example I heard recently:-

"London Airline XXX on Daventry departure passing 2,500 ft"

"Airline XXX London what level are you climbing to"

"Seven Thousand"

"Do you mean Seven Thousand or Flight Level Seven Zero?"

"Ah yes, Flight Level Seven Zero"

Then again I wonder which Daventry departure he was on!

I don't know how you guys at ATC remain so patient!

[LEGAL TENDER]

I don't know how you guys at ATC remain so patient!

It's our job to check cleared levels etc.. if we are not satisfied with the initial call. Nothing outrageous there at all. We forget stuff sometimes, pilots forget stuff sometimes. That's what we are paid for.
And the London Control boys and girls are paid significantly better than other ATCOs around the country, they can manage to check cleared levels and SIDs every now and again ;)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<"Airline XXX London what level are you climbing to"

"Seven Thousand">>

Or a much better one when a foreign airliner bust it's SID climbing out of Heathrow:

London Control: "xxx to what level are you climbing?"
XXX: "Er, nothing special"

[FragRad]

When I first started in ATC at West Drayton (1973!) there were 3 controllers working 'the FIR', East, West & North, one for each frequency - now just 1 FISO working all 3 frequencies together. I think you guys & gals do an excellent job - some of the standards of pilot r/t are indeed appalling these days!

[fireflybob]

It's our job to check cleared levels etc.. if we are not satisfied with the initial call. Nothing outrageous there at all. We forget stuff sometimes, pilots forget stuff sometimes. That's what we are paid for.

Legal Tender, I agree and that's a very professional attitude to take. Yes we can all suffer from the occasional omission etc but as professional pilots (with an R/T licence!) it's our job to consistently demonstrate and practise correct R/T Procedure. Some seem better than others at doing this.

[SwanFIS]

Maybe I have just got used to GA r/t over the years but I reckon there has been a marked improvement in the content and delivery this year. Still a number of time wasters but on the whole it is improving and I have thanked pilots on many occasion this year for good r/t :ok: We always remember the bad incidents allowing the good, proficient ones to melt into history.

FragRad is correct in what he says but I would add that we regularly split the freqs when it starts to get busy and this year have often utilised a third person overseeing the other two and handling phone calls.

All ATSOCA units are liable to get overloaded at times, we cannot put on restrictions as the airways sectors do if demand seems to high. Not a bad idea though :rolleyes: slots out of Popham to do a thirty minute local. You pilots wouldn't mind, would you?