Who to fly for... no mud this time.

[yoohoo748]

Hi there gents and ladies... that 'who to fly for in canada' was probably started with good intention, but then it got to be a mud slinging contest. I'm an overseas expat, that for one reason or another has avoided WJ and AC, not sure why, but at the time I had a bad taste in my mouth for each of them. That being said, I went overseas with the family. Not a bad gig, but in then next couple years it will be time to come back so that my son and future daughter/son can grow up in normal land. The choice I have is to find a good commuting gig out of the sand box or the orient, a frieghter job based in canada, but again with lots of time away from home. On the flip side there is working for a canadian outfit... WJ and AC seem pretty secure, advancement is slow, as are pay scales for the first few years. (I could be wrong, that is just what I have been told). Or a canadian charter outfit that may offer a quick or direct left seat, yet is here today and gone tomorrow.
Although it would be great to skipper a widebody, in the end it really boils down to lifestyle. Do I really want to spend MOST of my time on the road... My heart is split in two... decent cash and some fun overseas, or take the financial hit and work for a decent canadian carrier and spend more by the lake with the family. (as far as I see NOW... both AC and WJ have their merrits and I am sure have their own problems too.... let's not sling mud)
Guys/Gals that have been around since Christ left moosejaw as well as those that are still a little bit wet behind the ears are invited to reply. Again... let's keep the mud out of this...
Talk to you soon.... Happy Landings!!!

[bzh]

try Sunwing, they seen to be doing fine, avoid HMY and CanJet, Zoom should be adding airplanes too. I don't know about Skyservice, haven't heard anything recent....anybody else know more?

For Turboprop, most are looking for pilots with times. lots of direct entry captain needed for Medevacs too...

[yoohoo748]

Hmm... didn't know zoom was hiring... Sunwing is a great option, I've heard a few very good things about them. If everything else were the same, flying a beaver on floats would be tops, but the cash just isn't there to support a hungry family and a wife that likes nice shoes... lots of them!!!
The list is short for canada... but most of the companies are good. I just want to be sure about job security in the world that we live in. Nothing is guaranteed, as 9/11 proved to us.
I think for me right now it is boiling down to a bit about cash, and a whole lot about being at home more than I am on the road. month on, month off on a freighter contract would do that, as would working for most canadian outfits. Out go the CV's and let the offers (if there are any) help me decide. Not in any rush right now, just want to be settled back home in the next few years.

[Slapshot]

I did the oversea's thing for a number of years and when I found it "time to come home" as you seem too now, I joined WestJet.

Flying oversea's I found not conducive to the "Family Life" and the kids are better off (in my opinion) here at home.

You have your reasons for avoiding Air Canada and WestJet, I'm sure they make sense to you, but if those reasons are worth re-visiting, WestJet is looking for about 140 guys this summer and I think it's a great place to work...

Cheers.

[Johnny767]

Take it for what it's worth...

I think a job at Air Canada will (down the road) be not that bad. Your comment about slow advancement, doesn't apply here.

At the moment it is rapid promotion on the EMB. Sadly, for the time being it is terrible pay. Although we can hope for the best in '09.'

...that is IF (?) ACPA ever gets over itself.

There has been so much hiring that the young crowd should be able to punt the old ACPA guards, fat ass, over the horizon.

Or better yet, get a real Union.

Best wishes in your decision.

[yoohoo748]

Thanks guys;

Johnny... how bad is the pay??? how long till upgrade on EMB (taking experience etc. into account)? western base for that? ie: winnipeg and west? (or way east of T.O.?(not fond of T.O.!!)) AC has many great reasons to be with them. I wonder if I am too old to make a proper choice with them though. (at the 40 mark; feeling like 26)

Slapshot... WJ is right up there. The more that I learn, the more I like. I have many friends there and I am thinking that there must be more than Kool-aid that keeps people happy there. Nothing is perfect... but something keeps them happy.

Any thoughts from someone working a commuting contract?

[Johnny767]

I'll have a look on the last bid, but, I think there are un-filled vacancies in the left seat of the EMB?

Max pay is around 125K / year, again I'm not sure what it would be for someone in their first couple of years.

Pretty good job, Aircraft equivalent to the DC9 / B737. The bottom EMB Captain in Vancouver is 10 years and no EMB's in Winnipeg. Not sure about that other 'satelite base.'

Toronto (The Masterbase) is it.

Stand-by for further....

[Johnny767]

Jan. 1 / 07 Seniority List has 3226 Pilots

YYZ Bottom Captain EMB = 3115 (hired last week....;-)
YYZ " " 320 = 2783 (hired sometime in 2000?)
YVR " " EMB = 1957 ( 10 years service )


Crude, but gives you a rough idea. As for the entry level pay on the EMB, I'll have to leave that for someone in the know?

There was some conjecture about what to pay a Captain, who was still technically on 'flat salary.'

[brucelee]

I don't think that salary should be the only consideration. Money has a funny way of working itself out. Life outside the big cities is still affordable even on the lousy starting salaries. If you don't have time to invest salarywise, then have a look at Air TransAt or WJ. They tend to pay better in the short term. If you are looking for long term benefits, ie. a pension, full travel benefits into retirement and the best salary on your last day of work, then AC might be worth a look. I can only speak for myself but I am no different than other Dad and husband earning a living. Canada has its benefits. Your wife and kids will thank you for it. In my opinion, avoid the companies that don't have any plans to expand or don't have any vision of where they are going. Go to the interview and ask these questions.

[Slapshot]

Everybody is based in Calgary. However, if you choose to live in one of the "ports" that we have set up, your flying will be a mix of flying out of your home "port" and Calgary with the rest of us...

This Port system is in it's infancy and still evolving, but seems to work well for those I have talked to who are a part of it. You can expect to fly 4 maybe 5 pairings a month (16 days worked soon to be 15) and two of the pairings should be from your home port.

As has been mentioned here many times, WestJet does not provide a pension. They match your voluntary Employee Share Purchase which can be up to 20% of your salary. After a year, you invest it where you decide...

We don't provide a pension, but then we don't have people who decide not fund it either...

One aspect I will agree with Mr. B. Lee... Ask questions, be satisfied with your answers... If you go to an interview, they are not just interviewing you, you should be interviewing them...

Good luck.:ok:

[cfmoverboost]

You can scratch HMY off the list, they're already gone. CanJet, very, very unstable. Zoom, again, a private owner and seems to be regressing with any expansion plans. SkyService, very strange hiring policy and actually laid off a few crews recently. SunWing, I'm hearing good things, but still young and unproven. TransAt, great airline, but you have to be bilingual.
Basically, you got AC and WestJet, if you're looking for stability. Neither company makes it easy for you during the first two years of service.

WestJet: year 1 - $40,000 CAD
year 2 - $45,000 CAD
year 3 - $75,000 CAD

Air Canada: year 1 - $38,000 CAD
year 2 - $43,000 CAD
year 3 - formula pay

Of course, these are approximate numbers, I don't work for either one of them and know these numbers through hearsay. The way I see it, AC will eventually pay out bigger in the long run but WestJet will give you a better lifestyle, especially when the port system works out (my opinion, of course).
The pay is fustrating which is why the original thread caused such a stir with Canadian expats. Overseas work is a small sacrifice to make for the pay and benefits to be made.
What ever you decide hope it works out for you.

Good Luck!

[brucelee]

AC management has recently dumped plenty of cash in the pension fund. AC pilots are enjoing one of the most highly paid pensions in retirement there is in Canada, averaging in the six figure income range. That is no doubt going to continue. I am able to get a very accurate prediction on what my pension will be from my union and the company. I don't think WJ can provide that benefit but I'm sure if you hire a highly paid stock broker you might do ok. Once again, the choice is yours. Either way, you'll do alright.

[yoohoo748]

Thanks for the good reply guys. I have some tough choices to make, and I think that looking for long term gain is the correct answer for me. I am not crazy about being based in YYZ, but I could always convince the family to hang out there for a few years until a different base opens up for me. That is IF I am successful. That is key too... it's all just a dream until someone signs me up. There is opportunity all over the place right now; the music is playing and it is high time for me to take a good seat.
I was seriously considering an overseas commuting type contract, but I do think that would be extremely tough on family life... being away more than I am home. Let's face it... for me anyhow, it's more about the family than it is about anything else.

[Johnny767]

Check-out;

http://www.avcanada.ca/

There is a link to "Air Canada / Jazz" that is fairly busy with new hire info.

You could also join the ranks, of Hundreds, commuting from Calgary to Toronto or do the R/P gig in Vancouver.

If you're a commuter the company gives you passes from day one.

[duster1]

748, I don't know yor personal situation but I'll pass on my experience with WJ.

I live in YEG and bid YEG overnights and YEG Port pairings - work an average of 15-16 days a month with about 5-7 nights away from home. Haven't missed a family birthday or special event in 7 years. Generally get 90-100% of my days off requests. A very important point to note is that that there is NO seniority in bidding and No reserve - everybody has pretty much the same lifestyle. I've worked three Christmases out of the last seven.

Pretty good variety of flying althought no overseas stuff (yet). Day to day work environment is very good, very positive (and most of us DON'T drink the Koolaid - more like a bunch of people who enjoy doing what they do - our company has a few warts like any other).

As far as pay - things have improved very much over the last couple of years - from what I've seen 3 year FO's are grossing about 100 per year and should top out at about 120k. As a 5 year skipper I make about 160k not including options, which this year will add about 60 k to my income. From what I hear from the training guys, time to upgrade is about 5-6 years based on the current fleet plan. As has been said before, there is no defined pension as such - just the stock purchase program - the company matches you up to 20% of the gross income. This means for me that at retirement (12 years from now) I'll have a very nice chunk in taxes paid money to work with (should generate about 120 - 150k per year income) and the government and pension rules can't tell me what to do with it However directing one's own retirement does take some diligence and discipline, and doesn't work for every one

Having said all that, WJ definitely isn't for everybody - I have some friends a AC who like what they have there and the opportunities to fly a greater variety of equipment and routes.

If you have more questions feel free to PM me and good luck on your choice.:ok: