tips for landing a Piper 28 cherokee

[jonnyboy102]

Does anyone have any good tips for landing a PA28-151?

Is it better to approach quite high and then pitch to 65KTS later than usual?

Thanks.

[1a sound asleep]

I am not excatly sure what you mean but here's my advice.

If you have flown a Cessna the Warrior 1 doesn't float like the Cessna does. I always maintain 65-70 knots on final with a trickle of power (around 1000-1200RPM). That provides a nice final descent profile.

65 knots on short final and then a slighly more "fly it on approach" for roundout. If your airspeed is too high during the flare it will of course float like a Cessna

[BEagle]

Fly the aircraft the way an instructor teaches you. Don't listen to old wives' tales and personal bad flying habits.

[Fuji Abound]

My first instructor was an old wife - well she was older than me anyway and she was married.

Always told me some types need you to nail the numbers on the approach others are more forgiving, after that you cant go too wrong.

So that would be an instructor's old wives tale .. .. ..

[Genghis the Engineer]

Read the Piper POH, and do it the way that recommends.

G

[Miserlou]

Easy. Fly level along the runway with the power off. I promise you this works.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Had an interesting day out yesterday looking at all those aircraft whose pilots had failed in their attempts to land without wiping the nose gear out..... :ugh:

2 airfields visited, 4 aircraft damaged and sitting on blocks of wood!!!

And I thought it was easier in an aeroplane with a training wheel on the front!:rolleyes:

[Final 3 Greens]

Johnnyboy
Are you by any ch
ance a flight simmer looking for tips? If so, please let us know as I expect that you will get more specific help.

If not, then in general terms, you need to manage the energy on a Warrior carefully.

This does not mean that it is a difficult aeroplane to land, but it does like the right speed for this phase of flight, or it tends to float (if too fast.)

Floating eats up runway and we all know that runway behind us is of little use when landing.

I have over 120 hours on PA28s, but I am not an instructor, so I won't try and instruct you.

But I will set you a couple of questions to think about.

1 - If you approach high and then have to set a sharper (nose down) attitude to compensate, does that sound as if it will help you to achieve a stable approach?

2 - What challenges will you face in rounding out from a very steep approach?

Now what I used to do (assuming medium weight) was to approach at 800' (the circuit height), on base get the revs in an Archer back to about 1600-1700 and start slowing down from 90 knots, letting the airspeed come back to 80 knots, when I would take the first stage of flaps and start descending after the initial tendency to pitch up has subsided.

I would then let the aircraft settle and take the second stage at about 75 knots, turning on to final and reducing revs to idle (check carb heat hot) for the final of appx 1 mile.

A this stage, I would be around 700 feet, about double the altitude to fly a standard 3 degree approach. Then again, I could also glide in if the engine stopped.

As I was flying down final, I would gently decelerate to 70 knots, trim and take full flap/carb heat cold at about 300 feet, setting the power as necessary and then ease the speed back to 65 knots using the yoke, from which a reasonable arrival usually resulted. (The descent rate on final needed to about 600-700fpm.)

At the time, I had a few hundred hours total time and was okay on attitude flying due to some good instruction received.

Please note that anything I did is not necessarily good practice and is certainly not presented as being instructional advice, which I am not qualified to give, in any case.

Best to spend some time with an instructor learning properly, but perhaps the above gives you a feeling of ONE WAY that the job can be done.

[Dysonsphere]

are we talking about a Cherokee or a Warrior as there quite differant in landing due to differant wings

[tiggermoth]

The "1" at the end of PA28-151 does imply a Warrior (a zero would be a Cherokee slab-wing). Otherwise http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=30817 may be of help.

[Final 3 Greens]

Dysonsphere

PA28-151 Cherokee Warrior, PA28-161 Warrior II.

The poster quite clearly stated PA28-151 and is correct in referring to it as a PA28 Cherokee, too, for it is both.

And having flown slab and taper wing versions, they are both easy to land if flown at the correct airspeeds, using a sensible approach to a trike single.

[IRRenewal]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3224892&postcount=3

[Kit d'Rection KG]

Simple...

Just land it like a Fokker 100.

(Sorry, I just found it easiest to land the Fokker 100 the same way that works for the PA28 - so it must work in reverse, no?).

[jonnyboy102]

thanks for all the help,

I'm currently learning on the PA28-151 and really struggling with landing the bugger! I've spent a good 11 hours now just on the traffic pattern and it just won't click. My approaches are reasonably constant but I just need to work on the timing of the roll out and flare.

Having a great time in Sunny California! Jon.

[englishal]

Look at the far end of the runway. Works in any aeroplane ;)

[Saab Dastard]

I've said it before, but:

Aim for the ground but miss for as long as possible ;)

SD

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Can anyone here fly at two feet above the runway and maintain two feet for the whole runway length by looking at the far end of the runway?

[Final 3 Greens]

Can anyone here fly at two feet above the runway and maintain two feet for the whole runway length by looking at the far end of the runway?

No - they usually have bumps in the middle.

Serious answer - Chuck, why don't you explain your technique, I know you have done before, but it will be a good refresher for some of us and new learning to others.

[Miraz]

Can anyone here fly at two feet above the runway and maintain two feet for the whole runway length by looking at the far end of the runway?

Yup - great exercise for working on your landing technique

[Genghis the Engineer]

How do you tell if you are at exactly 2 feet?

Okay, you can tell if you are at zero feet, but frankly I think I'd struggle anywhere in the bracket 1-5 feet to know exactly where I was!

G

[FullyFlapped]

Johnny,

There is one way to guarantee a perfect landing every time, as follows. This technique works in all variants of PA28, so no worries about type.

Fly a normal down wind leg, but once you have made your normal downwind radio call, start gently humming the theme tune to The Dambusters.

Keep flying downwind until your instructor (or ATC) asks you if you ever intend to turn base, as which point, just smile bashfully and say, “aww, sorry, I forgot what I was doing there for a second”.

Take no flap on base leg, and – most important, this – do not lose any height as you turn onto finals, but as you make the 80 degree banked turn, point out of your window and ask the instructor if he’s “ever noticed how the dappled sunlight plays on those gloriously golden wheatfields down there? It’s beautiful …”

Hopefully by now you’ll have a mile or so to run, so tighten those straps, turn your baseball cap backwards, look over at your instructor and say ”waddya say, bubba, let’s go whup sum ass, huh ?”.

Now pitch the aircraft nose steeply down whilst at the same time smoothly adding power. Be careful not to exceed 75% power. Make the confident radio call, “G-XXXX touch and go runway 37”.

At about 400 feet, just before he loses the power of speech, your instructor should manage to screech something along the lines of “ferchrissakeswotchafeckindoin?” in a very high pitched voice. Just tell him you’re “waiting for the PAPIs to turn green/green“.

At this point, your instructor will shout “I HAVE CONTROL!!!!”, kill the power, sort the attitude, and probably side-slip to a great landing just after the numbers. The bells you will hear ringing are the emergency services, but they will stop shortly, so you can ignore them.

Now, having achieved a great landing, clean the aircraft up, smoothly add power to full and continue your take-off roll.

Simple, huh ? Works every time ….

FF :ok:
Ignore what you read on here. Listen to your instructor. It will come!

[Fuji Abound]

Fly the aircraft the way an instructor teaches you. Don't listen to old wives' tales and personal bad flying habits.

Read the Piper POH, and do it the way that recommends.

I know these are commonly made assertions and they are a good place to start. However I think to suggest they are the only solution is wrong.

I dont see why people shouldnt express their own experiences - some you may well be wise not to follow, and if you are new on type you will want to use tried and tested techniques.

However, there are those with a great deal more experience on type than instructors and even the guy who wrote the POH. Listen to what they have to tell you as well, because it might make some sense!

[Kolibear]

Can anyone here fly at two feet above the runway and maintain two feet for the whole runway length by looking at the far end of the runway?

No - they usually have bumps in the middle.

Chuck calls those bumps - 'Waves'.

[englishal]

Can anyone here fly at two feet above the runway and maintain two feet for the whole runway length by looking at the far end of the runway?
I did on my CPL skills test, when after turning a tight base the examiner says "flapless landing".....doh I crossed the threshold at about 90 kts and floated for about 5000' (he wouldn't *let* me go around and he said that if I touched down before we stopped flying then I'd fail)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Fly the aircraft the way an instructor teaches you. Don't listen to old wives' tales and personal bad flying habits.

Read the Piper POH, and do it the way that recommends.
I know these are commonly made assertions and they are a good place to start. However I think to suggest they are the only solution is wrong.

I dont see why people shouldnt express their own experiences - some you may well be wise not to follow, and if you are new on type you will want to use tried and tested techniques.

However, there are those with a great deal more experience on type than instructors and even the guy who wrote the POH. Listen to what they have to tell you as well, because it might make some sense!

Maybe, maybe not. I've seen an instructor teach 75kn approach speed on a 28-161, when the POH recommends 63kn. The results - about twice as much runway being used as necessary - that instructor was teaching on a 2km tarmac runway - fancy trying that at Popham?

For that matter how many instructors teach use of carb heat in Cherokees on finals, when the POH recommends that you don't unless carb icing is actually detected. Does anybody really believe that Piper, in the litigation conscious USA, would recommend NOT using carb heat unless they were totally sure of their ground?

Of-course there are people with far more knowledge and hours on type than the flight test crew, who had a brand new aeroplane. But I'd always start with the POH, then listen to an instructor, then to other pilots.

But, frankly, anybody telling me to fly an aeroplane other than as per the POH, had better have some damned good explanations why - or I for one will ignore them and do it "by the book".

G

[Wessex Boy]

I am being taught 90 downwind, 80 on base (stages 1+2 together), 75 on final (Stage 3), 70 over the fence in a 161

[A and C]

As usual a lot of "tips" & advice on speeds etc but the key to a good landing in any slab tail Piper is to have the aircraft loaded with the C of G in the centre of the range.

That way you don't run out of pitch control authority at low speed.

With two people and fuel to "tabs" most pipers are loaded near the FWD of the C of G range (& put full fuel in a PA34 with two people in the front puts the C of G FWD of the limit).

In short the best way to get a good landing is to use the POH speeds and put that big "pilot case" in the aft baggage bay.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

O.K. once again I shall try and simplify the task of landing an airplane versus arriving with it.

There is no substitute for being able to accurately judge your height above the landing surface....height is the third demension that differs driving an airplane from driving your car, therefore you must be able to judge height to know where you are in relation to the surface.

So here goes again......

*******************************************************

O.K. I will try and describe how I teach correct height judgement for the flare and height judgement after the flare.

First the flare:

I use a definiable point on the runway as the flare point, usually the first big hash marks and runway numbers. This is the aim point on final, during the last fifty feet in a small airplane the aim point will start to grow in size and also appear to spread out in your vision, at about twenty feet the picture will become quite clear that you are about to fly into the runway. It is at this point that I start the flare with most light bug smashers.

Note:

Rather than describe to the student what I am seeing I have them memorize what they observe at the flare point, this avoids any missunderstanding of what I am trying to describe. By using this method the student will quickly imprint the picture that she / he is seeing.

Once the flare is started you then look straight ahead down the runway to the point where apparent movement of the runway markers stop.

What is................... " Apparent movement of the runway " ..........

There is a point ahead of the airplane where the eye will pick up the movement of the runway towards the airplane. This point will change with the speed of the airplane.

For little Bug Smashers that approach in the 50 to 70 knot speed envelope the apparent movement of the runway,,, runway marks, will be approximately five hundred feet ahead of the airplane.

That is the distance ahead of the airplane that your center of sight should be aimed at. This will give you the proper picture that will allow you to best judge height.

The reason that this works is you can "see" the runway get closer in your peripheral vision as the runway movement close to the airplane changes. Also you can "see" the far end of the runway in the top of your peripheral vision, this is your attitude guide that allows you to change the attitude as speed and lift decays.

Ideally the airplane should contact the runway in the attitude that the stall occurs. ( Except wheel landings in taildraggers. )

If the nose blocks out your view ahead as you increase the nose up attitude during the hold off all you need do is move your head and sight line to the side and look along the side nose at the runway still using the same distance ahead that gives the picture that you need. Where apparent movement stops.

Note as you slow down the runway movement picture moves progressively closer. ( About three to five hundred feet ahead is just about right at touch down.


I have an excellent movie that was taken at Airbus Industries during my A320 training and I use it when describing what to look for when determining where the apparent runway movement stops. The beauty of the movie is I can stop it and show the point on the runway where this occurs, then start it up again.

Also the movie is perfect for the flare picture, the A320 approaches at a higher speed than a light aircraft but the picture remains the same when looking at the flare point, it just happens faster. ( oh by the way you don't actually flare an A320 like you do a Bug Smasher but the height judgement is the same. ( aided by the computer voice giving you exact height. )

I am willing to keep answering any and all questions about how I teach height and speed judgement, all I wish to do is make flying safer and easier for those who fly for the love of it.

My system works because I have been perfecting it for fifty years and I used to teach crop dusting where if you do not know how to accurately judge height and speed you die.

So if you all want me to keep explaining my method I am willing to type until everyone understands how I do it.

By the way:::

I use a camcorder for all my advanced flight training, when the student fu..s up it is easy to review it right after the flight and explain where it started to go wrong and how to prevent repeating the fu.. up.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I am being taught 90 downwind, 80 on base (stages 1+2 together), 75 on final (Stage 3), 70 over the fence in a 161

Whilst the operators manuals says 70 on final, and 63 over the hedge (reduced slightly at lower weights). Has your instructor explained why he prefers to have you coming in faster particularly since you are probably flying 2-up with half fuel, or in other words fairly well below maximum weight (which should bring the speeds down another couple of knots).

Also playing devils advocate here, has your instructor ensured that you read the Piper manual?

G

[Not just being pedantic, I've about 100 hours on -161s, flying at POH speeds, my only major screw-up in the aeroplane being early in my time on type, when I flew significantly faster than the POH, probably at about your instructors speeds, and overran a runway which the operating data said I should have been okay on!]

[Wessex Boy]

G the E:
I did most of my original flying in Cessnas 150-182, so am used to pitch-down when adding flap, I think at this point my instructor wants to maintain some margin until I get it through my thick skull that the PA28 pitches up:\

Things are improving and I have dropped from 80 originally to 75 for final now. I imagine that when I get stuck into circuits properly on my lesson after next then the speeds will drop again.

[englishal]

Thanks Chuck.....

I know your method works in fact it took me a while to master it but it is foolproof in any aeroplane. Instructors seem to have a hard time getting it across to students, but once you "get it" you never have to "think" about landing again.

On a flight a few days ago I realised that when I was a PPL student I used to really "think" about landing and almost get sweaty palms, and then breath a big sigh of relief when I pulled off a greaser. Now I bearly even think about it, a quick glance at the ASI on short final, and from that moment on, eyes out of the cockpit feeling how the aeroplane is flying, watching the runway. Doesn't even matter if there is a crosswind, the principle is the same, keep parallel with the rudder and stop drift with the ailerons.

Regarding "over the hedge" speeds - I don't really believe you should a) pay too much attention to them and b) should be looking at the ASI at that moment. I prefer to set myself up for a nice stable approach early on, slower if for a short field, then feel how the plane is flying on the approach (rather than rely on ASI) so that at the right point, you are at the right height and right speed. Once you know you're going to land then proceed as above.

[pulse1]

Some excellent descriptions of the landing process here. But one fundamental element which has been given very little attention is the importance of TRIM, especially for the final approach speed.

englishal,

I liked your description particularly but I'm sure that you can only take such a relaxed view of airspeed because you have trimmed properly. I have been amazed by how many new PPL's don't seem to understand how important it is.

What got the message finally across for me was sitting in the jump seat of a B757 into Heathrow. The captain took over for the landing and, as we crossed the M25, he took both hands of the yoke and turned to me and said "Look, pefectly trimmed". Since then, I always make sure that I am perfectly trimmed and my landing performance has improved a lot.

[Wessex Boy]

Pulse, I have found trim to be the secret too, makes huge difference to workload all of the way around the circuit.
I used to be able to grease the 152 every time on feel, so am hoping that I will be able to do the same once I get the 'feel' for the 161 and it becomes second nature

[Final 3 Greens]

pulse1

Re trimming, which part of the following did you have trouble reading?????

As I was flying down final, I would gently decelerate to 70 knots, trim and take full flap/carb heat cold at about 300 feet, setting the power as necessary

As for...

he took both hands of the yoke and turned to me and said "Look, pefectly trimmed".
Autoland is a wonderful thing :}

[Chuck Ellsworth]

" once I get the 'feel' for the 161 and it becomes second nature "

Feel without sight is not going to do it.

[pulse1]

Final 3 Greens,

Probably less trouble than you had understanding "given very little attention" - it doesn't mean that nobody had mentioned it.

[Fuji Abound]

Autoland is a wonderful thing

Yep the one I am using is cleared down to 200 feet, but I left it in to 100 feet, didnt have to do anything all the way down the approach - cant see what the problem is :confused: .


Feel without sight is not going to do it.

Did you read the article in Flying a year or so back. I think it was an Arrow - no deice and unfortunately ran into icing conditions - with the family on board. The screen was solid apparently - couldnt see a thing. He flew it all the way down the G/S localiser by hand, flared at what he hoped was about the right point with which partial visibility returned as some of the ice was knocked from the screen with the bump of the tyres agreeing with terra firma. Who needs sight?

[Love_joy]

Jon, with practice and correct instruction this will eventually click. I know your pain.

In the -161 we fly the downwind at 95kts in the clean config. The rest depends on the type of circuit/landing we want - i.e. normal, flapless or glide. All speeds are for the 161, apologies if they differ.

For a normal landing, fly the downwind leg until the threshold is behind you - about 45º when you look back. Start your turn to base and hold it level in the turn, as you do reduce the power to 1500rpm and watch the IAS. As you roll out of the turn, the speed should be about 80 kts ish. Take 2 stages of flap. Pitch and trim for 75 decending. (rate is not important yet).

You now need to work out if you are high or not, with this spacing you need to be at 550 AGL as you pop out on finals to be on the 3º GS. (I know you wont be doing ILS, but it will work for the PAPI's too). If your too high, reduce power. Too low, add some more. Make sure you nail 75 at all times though.

When you turn final, put the touchdown zone about 1/3 up the windscreen above the combing. Adjust height using pitch this time and speed with power (opp to base). Once stable, go for full flap and the speed should bleed to 65 (if you had 75 to start with). Dont play with the power too much on finals, it unstabilises it quite a bit.

For the flare, your instructor is the best to show you this. I just hold the approach attitude till about 1m off, reducing the power slowly to idle as I pass the top of the numbers. As you touch, you should have the cowling 'covering' half the visible runway ahead of you. Depending on the width of your runway, you might be able to use your periperal vision to assist. You will feel the runway coming up to the level of your shoulders and this helps with the last few inches.

Let us know when you get your first 'greaser'! ;)

[BackPacker]

Love-Joy, is there a particular reason why you're flying the circuit at 95 knots, up to the end of downwind? 30 knots of speed difference (95 -> 65) is a lot of speed to bleed off while descending. If your circuit is 800' AAL and in a Warrior it can be done (as you say, 1500 rpm or less), but if you go to a more slippery airplane (like a DA-40) and a higher circuit (depending on traffic, we sometimes have to maintain 1500' AAL until end of downwind) you might not be able to do it anymore. Even with full flaps, sideslips and zero power.

In the Warrior, I was taught 80-85 knots clean on downwind (2000-2100 rpm), reducing to 65 knots (full flaps) on final (~1700 rpm). In the Diamond, cruise is 115 knots (70% power), downwind 90 (clean; 50% power) and final 70 (full flaps; ~20% power). In both cases, speed difference between downwind clean and final full flaps is a more manageable 15-20 knots.

In addition to that, if you go from something like 2200-2300 rpm on downwind (95 knots) to an almost instantaneous 1500 rpm for the base turn, aren't you shock cooling the engine?

[Final 3 Greens]

Well I can't speak for Love_Joy but I would fly downwind at 100 knots in a PA28 unless there was slow traffic ahead.

Efficient use of the circuit is appreciated by following twins and a PA28 is very easy to slow down.

If you fly an aircraft that requires a different technique, then one uses that technique - I don't fly a Piper like another aircraft or vice versa.

Shock cooling a normally aspirated 0-320 or 360 would not be the top of my list of concerns.

[Wessex Boy]

We normally have a lot of C150s in the circuit so 90kts is better for spacing.
I will let you know how tomorrow's landing goes!
(4th attempt to do stalling due to Wx/Vis!)

[Final 3 Greens]

Wessex Boy

Good luck with your detail - fyi, C150s are okay to follow, but someone in a Cub intent on flying slowly can really drag their heels :-)

As ever, courtesy to other traffic should be shown and I'll always slow down or extend so I don't get too close or put pressure on them

[Wessex Boy]

Thanks F3G, I originally learnt at Norwich in the mid '80s, then flew with Marshalls at Cambridge so was used to sharing the circuit with a variety of types, orbits and extended downwinds were a daily occurence (You always took your maps on circuit training, just in case!:) )

[Love_joy]

Indeed - we share our circuit with a lot of other aircraft, including twins. I believe this is where the 95kts comes from. It might just be a local procedure.

In saying that, it goes without saying that its only good Airmanship to adapt your speed with the traffic of the moment.

I am pretty sure a reduction in 500-700 rpm runs nil risk of shock cooling.

[EastMids]

Whilst I accept its beneficial to rapid learning that a specific set of speeds are flown initially, I can't help feeling that a sticking to a very rigid set of numbers doesn't necessarily help in the long term (on downwind / base / final at least, although I accept touchdown is different). At some stage, fitting into circuits with slower and faster traffic is going to be necessary, and IMHO its always better to adjust the speed where possible and safe, rather than extend or orbit or go around. Likewise, when ATC requests your "best speed due following jet traffic" its useful and helpful to be familiar with how fast and to how close you can safely fly the final whilst still being able to get it slowed up to the book figure over the numbers.

Andy

[Final 3 Greens]

Andy

I agree with your post and would like to add that if following jet traffic is catching up, there is always also the option of going around, which can be a good call under certain circumstances and trade a few extra minutes in the circuit for lower workload.

Staying current on flapless landings is a good idea too, as there is always the option of flying a flatter, faster approach and landing off it, but probably not something for the original poster to worry about at this stage of his training ;)

[Wessex Boy]

Well, I did 4 circuits today, not all ended as successfully as I intended...
I still haven't got the 'feel' or the 'picture' yet but the circuits and aproach certainly improved....just the last 30 feet to sort:)

[Final 3 Greens]

Well done Wessex Boy.

As the sign in my flying club used to say

Learn to fly - £200

Learn to land £1,900 (well, it was more than a few years ago!)

It will "click" - just keep going :ok:

[DBisDogOne]

Stick with it mate, I still can't get it right all the time (wish I could) and I've got my PPL!!! It will come, take your time and carry on practicing. Best advice I was given which works for me was "Fly it down to a few feet off the runway" and leave a tiny bit of power on, then power off and gently stick back and it'll land smoothly consistantly (unless I'm flying but that's due to my incompetance....).

[Sideslipper]

Always close the throttle and eyes together.
Works for me:ok:

[Glasgow_Flyer]

Mate - I've had a totally awful day - came home and read your top tips for landing the PA28 - cheered me up to no end - thanks a million!!

[FullyFlapped]

:)

FF :ok:

[Gertrude the Wombat]

You always took your maps on circuit training, just in case!
Erm, isn't that routine on every flight? - you never know when some nana is going to block the runway and you'll have to go and land somewhere else.

[Cusco]

No It's just a legal requirement.

Safe flying

Cusco.;)

[j_davey]

i`m in the middle of my ppl training,started on cherokee now on warrior 2, i`m doing abour 5 landings everyday and they`re not getting any easier! i`ve got the approach nailed but the flare is where i`m messing up! the controls are so light that i end up over-flaring and ballooning and floating down the runway in ground effect and eventually coming to earth with an unsettling thud. hopefully practice makes perfect!

jd.

[Atlas Shrugged]

Good grief! 3 pages on how to land a Warrior. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

It ain't hard :mad:

[Final 3 Greens]

It ain't hard

It is when you can't do it ;)

[j_davey]

hey atlas, were newbies.... give us a break :)

anyhow, i`m doing my first solo circuits in about...... 2hours!!! so maybe between this morning and then i`ll have learned me how to land better and not do controlled crashes.:cool:

[tiggermoth]

Good luck with your solo circuits! From the time of your posting I reckon your training in the USA?

A good tip for the Solo is to talk yourself rigth round the circuit, and just pretend the instructor is right next to you. If you're too high (let's say) just tell yourself outloud, "too high" then go through the routine you are taught.

At the bit where you hold it off on landing, hold it off for ages, pulling the yoke right back until you are almost sat on the back seat. Your instructor can then have the pleasure of seeing you do a real good greaser!

There's nothing much nicer than that endless greasy float of a Warrior on a really long wide tarmac runway! Lovely stuff. Enjoy it!

[EastMids]

started on cherokee now on warrior 2, i`m doing abour 5 landings everyday and they`re not getting any easier! i`ve got the approach nailed but the flare is where i`m messing up! the controls are so light that i end up over-flaring and ballooning and floating down the runway in ground effect and eventually coming to earth with an unsettling thud.

Something not quite right there... A Warrior 2-up (student, instructor) is not light on the elevators in the flare - in fact iMHO it requires quite firm back pressure compared to some other types. That though can be part of the problem - a good pull can easily turn into too much pull, with the ballooon a likely consequence. A Warrior will go up again if the flare is too aggressive or the speed too high. Actually I usually end up with better touchdowns off flap-less landings - a little extra speed, the very gentlest of flares gradually increasing the backpressure usually results in the very gentlest of touchdowns when the aircraft stops flying, and fortunately we have the runway at home base to do that. That's not to say I don't do low-speed full-flap short runways too. I also prefer to put in a little nose-up trim to reduce the back-pressure in the flare - there are consequences of doing this though (i.e. do NOT let go of the steering wheel, and be ready to be fairly firm on the controls and to put in some nose down trim pretty quickly if you need to go around).

A

[gcolyer]

i.e. do NOT let go of the steering wheel


I have never seen a PA28 with a steering wheel.


a little extra speed


You mean a little extra power.

[EastMids]

The Pa28 has a stabilator not an elevator!!!

Whatever - the thing that makes the aeroplane go up or down!! :bored: :rolleyes:

You mean a little extra power.

Nope, I meant a little extra speed. If I'm doing a flapless landing (which is the context in which my comment was made) I will be carrying a little extra speed over the numbers compared to when I'm doing a full flap landing. Power at the flare is almost always idle.

Andy

[j_davey]

I`m Alive!

i had one greaser, one incredibly long landing because the tower called my base very early due to approaching traffic and one crap landing in which i came down on one main wheel followed by the nose and the other main!:eek:

the long landing was ok, i floated for an eternity and put her down half way down the runway and then missed my turnoff because i was a little too hot to make the turn so i ended up taking the last exit right at the other end of the 4000ft runway ..... oops!

so going for my first stage check now in a half hour! maybe i should be studying but my brain is melted.:ugh:

[Final 3 Greens]

Power makes it go up or down, speed is contolled by PITCH!!!

Don't start this one again.

The simplistic approach at PPL level may say this, but it does not mean it is a universal truth.