American Leaves CO for CX...

[Mark Skid]

As an American, would I be crazy to leave Continental to go to Cathay? If what I read here is true I would make a lot more money and have more vacation initially, but I could never upgrade to command on the Cargo fleet, would have to pay extra taxes (HK), would be discriminated against for being a Yank, and could lose my job for sneezing in the wrong direction. Can anyone enlighten me as to the reality of what goes on over there? I am trying to decide what to do while the offer is still on the table.

[Millstream]

Is the offer on the Pax fleet or the Freighter fleet? I would be careful about accepting a freighter offer at the moment - would be a shame to miss out on a far superior pax job.

Milly

[Mark Skid]

Either US freighter in the 4th quarter or UK freighter early next year (wife is English).

[baseddude]

Mark Skid:
Take Milly's comment for what it's worth. If you're offered a DEFO job on the passenger fleet, take it. I haven't heard of any offerings for North American passenger DEFO's, but it wouldn't surprise me.

It pays a lot more (at least until the conditions of service change. The last effort to try to "align" the conditions of service for passenger/freighter pilots didn't work out too well. The pilot group wisely rejected it, recognizing it for what it was - a shafting for the new guys AND the current SO's.). I disagree with Milly that passenger F/O is a better job. If I could have passenger pay for flying the freighter, THAT would be the best of both worlds in my view.
Having said that, here's my reply:

Take a lot of the negativity re: Cathay with a grain of salt. While (that's "whilst" for the Queen's subjects reading this post, hehehe) there is some truth to the negative comments, the conditions here are not at all as negative as some would have you believe.

For my part, I'm very happy here. :ok: I'm based in JFK on the freighter, by the way.

Most Americans who have joined Cathay in the last couple of years are airline refugees. Of those refugees, some plan to return to their old jobs when recalled, some are trying to get hired by UPS/FedEx, and some hope to make Cathay their long-term home. As an aside, it appears that lately the pool of high-time oldster refugees is drying up, and Cathay has begun fishing in the regional pilot pool.

Cathay is NOT for everybody. I should repeat that: Cathay is NOT for everybody!! From my perspective, the key to success is to try mightily to just "fit in". That means simply recognizing that Mister Swire owns all of the toys in the toybox, and has the right to tell you EXACTLY how to play with them. And if you play with Mister Swire's toys EXACTLY as you're told, everything will be fine. However, if you don't, your shortcomings will most likely be brought to your attention with varying degrees of diplomacy. Rather than thinking about what an undiplomatic dick the guy next to you is, it's probably best just to focus on eliminating your errors. It'll make your next sim ride easier anyway.

The bottom line analysis needs to focus on at least 4 issues: money, benefits, quality of life, and job security.

1. Money: The money might be a "wash". If you get on a widebody at Continental early, you might even make more money over a career. The uncertainty of WHEN you will upgrade to captain at Cathay makes the determination of career earnings a little tricky.

2. Benefits: The medical benefits are fantastic (at least while you're working). (Oddly, however, pap smears, breast exams, and vasectomies are not covered.) There is no dental coverage. And perhaps most importantly (at least to an old guy like me), there is no medical coverage for retirees. This might be because most CX pilots have some form of national health coverage available in retirement. I'm just speculating on this point, because I can't imagine why else this would be the case. The 15.5% Provident Fund kicker (whether you take it in cash, or in the Provident Fund) isn't bad either.

3. Quality of life: As a freighter F/O I have a TON of time off. Plus vacation. But quality of life includes the quality of your work life. The quality of my life in the cockpit is very, very good. I enjoy virtually all of the crewmembers I fly with (whether they are diplomatic or not. Most are, by the way.) The training environment is another story, perhaps. I've come to realize that the problems with the training at Cathay are mostly systemic - that is, Cathay "training" culture is really just checking - but this is made MUCH worse as we pay attention to the whining of our colleagues. While in training, your colleagues are your WORST enemies. Without the infectious stress they spew around, "training" here would be much easier.

4. Job security: This is a bit of an irony: Cathay is probably one of the most financially secure airlines in the world. And they're determined to remain that way. So from that standpoint, this is a VERY secure job.

However, the company can "sack" you at any time, for any reason. You'll get 3 months severance (after you've been here a year), and you'll get shown the door. Period. Having said that, Cathay is in the business of running an airline, not terrorizing its employees. So from my perspective, they would only fire a pilot for cause.

Now, before the other ppruners jump on my face, I suppose I should make the obligatory mention of the 49'ers. I've flown with 3 freighter 49'er captains - all magnificent chaps, by the way. And I'm convinced that these were good men, and good employees. Not flawless employees, but certainly not the sort of persons deserving of summary dismissal. They were, in my view, "collateral damage" in a pissing contest between the company and the AOA. In any event, the one thing you have at Continental that we do NOT have at Cathay is the Railway Labor Act. There is enormous protection for airline employees under the RLA. If you're not familiar with it, you should be. The RLA, in combination with your contract, almost make termination from a U.S. airline impossible.

None of this directly answers the question of whether you should leave Continental for Cathay. Part of the calculus that's missing here is personal to you: How old are you? What's your experience level? How willing are you to just "fit in"? - (which for me, requires LOTS of continuous study - something I'm not used to doing for my flying job. This, by the way, is partially necessitated by the small amount of work I'm required to do each month. It's easy to forget even normal procedures when you only perform them a few times each month.) Are you interested in living in Hong Kong? (Not a requirement, as far as I'm concerned. From where I sit, it appears you could stay on a U.S. basing your entire career, but HK is where the real money is.)

If I were in your situation, it would be a difficult choice for me. Having been on both sides of the question, the grass is greener on both sides of the fence! They're just different flavors of grass!!! For me, Cathay would be perfect if I had retirement medical benefits, a "train to proficiency" culture, and the shield of the Railway Labor Act. But at Continental you won't have the opportunity to have a crack at command on a 747 after a couple of years, either...

Good luck making your decision!

[BusyB]

Baseddude,

Good brakdown of the pro's and con's,:ok:

[Sike]

Wow, that was probably the most informative post I've read here in the last year. Thanks!

[BuzzBox]

Mark Skid:
I agree. Baseddude's analysis is the most balanced and informative post I've seen here for a long time. You'd do well to ignore the juvenile rantings posted elsewhere on this forum.

Good luck!

[cpdude]

I'm impressed Baseddude! You have painted a very accurate picture which simply explains each point of view depending on "fitting in" or not.

For those that do...it's a good job and for those that don't...it's hell! :oh: ;)

[Cpt. Underpants]

That post should be mandatory reading for all wannabees.

Well done, dude. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Dixi Normus]

What is the roster like on a LAX base F/O? How does the CX LAX cargo job compare to the NCA job base in SFO?

[Betsy & Nikki]

As mentioned by others, Excellent post baseddude! :D

Much appreciated

[Mark Skid]

Thanks Baseddude, I really appreciate the information. As this is a big decision for me to make, it's nice to get an even-handed view of Cathay with out the usual rhetoric. I am waiting for some more information, such as where my basing will be, and just how much will I enjoy flying for CO (I'm still in training).

I have a military/regional mixed background which means I'm programmed to fit in as well as to display some masochistic tendencies. Also, I'm and oldie as well with an English wife who wants to move to the UK while the kids are young (if possible) so I do have some thinking to do.

I have some friends in training over in Cathay City that will be able to give me some good feedback 6 or 8 months down the road when they are online.

Once again, thanks.

- Mark Skid

[stilton]

One other detail to consider.

While working in HK for CX you will be subject to very low tax rates.

As an American Citizen , however you are always subject to federal tax.

No matter where you work.

[Gillegan]

Regarding Expat Americans being subject to U.S. Taxes, the gentleman above is sort of correct. As an American citizen, you always have to file but if you actually reside outside of the U.S., you may be eligible for the foreign earned income exclusion (first $84,000 of foreign earned income is excluded from taxation for overseas residents). In addition, if you are residing in a country that taxes your income, you may be eligible for a credit for foreign taxes paid if that country has a tax treaty with the United States. I'm not sure if Hong Kong has a tax agreement with the U.S. or not but as with anything else concerning U.S. tax law, it can get complicated and it might be worth your while to research the issue to see exactly how you would be impacted by the various scenarios that you are researching.

[cf680c2b]

several times I've seen references made to the difference between Pax DEFO pay vs. FRT DEFO pay but I have not been able to find the Pax rate anywhere. Can someone enlighten me as to what it is or where I can find it. Also, Are they now hiring DEFO pax N. American?

[Cruiseclimb]

Thanks Baseddude.. Great posting !!!

[Rice bowl licker]

Cf, here's the Cathay scale for both pax & freighter fleet based in Hong Kong or the USA hence figures shown in US dollars.

If highly volatile fx currency markets are taken out of your 'bring home pay' equation, CX looks like a fantastic place to work. HKG is definitely where the money is at...


Cathay Pacific Passenger Fleet
Note: An officer’s rank reverts to “Step 1” upon promotion.

SR. CAPT
STEP 17 USD $17,440
STEP 16 USD $17,120
STEP 15 USD $16,810
STEP 14 USD $16,510
STEP 13 USD $16,210
STEP 12 USD $15,920
STEP 11 USD $15,640
STEP 10 USD $15,360
STEP 9 USD $15,080
STEP 8 USD $14,810
STEP 7 USD $14,550
STEP 6 USD $14,290
STEP 5 USD $14,040
STEP 4 USD $13,790-
STEP 3 USD $13,540-
STEP 2 USD $13,000
STEP 1 USD $13,070

CAPT
STEP 2 USD $12,840
STEP 1 USD $12,610

SR. F/O
STEP 6 USD $10,170
STEP 5 USD $9,913
STEP 4 USD $9,660
STEP 3 USD $9,420
STEP 2 USD $9,180
STEP 1 USD $8,960

YEAR F/O
STEP 4 USD $8,660
STEP 3 USD $8,520
STEP 2 USD $8,380
STEP 1 USD $8,240

YEAR JR. F/O
STEP 2 USD $7,100
STEP 1 USD $6,340

YEAR S/O
STEP 4 USD $5,800
STEP 3 USD $5,180
STEP 2 USD $4,640
STEP 1 USD $4,140



Cathay Pacific Freighter Fleet
Note: An officer’s rank reverts to “Step 1” upon promotion.

CAPT
STEP 11 USD $13,380
STEP 10 USD $13,120
STEP 9 USD $12,860
STEP 8 USD $12,610
STEP 7 USD $12,360
STEP 6 USD $12,120
STEP 5 USD $11,190
STEP 4 USD $10,970
STEP 3 USD $10,750
STEP 2 USD $10,540
STEP 1 USD $10,330

F/O
STEP 10 USD $8,620
STEP 9 USD $8,490
STEP 8 USD $8,360
STEP 7 USD $7,940
STEP 6 USD $7,501
STEP 5 USD $7,253
STEP 4 USD $6,750
STEP 3 USD $6,290
STEP 2 USD $5,790
STEP 1 USD $5,290

[sisyphos]

Why are there still so many guys out there who think CX is paying a decent salary even when looking at the figures ????

take the cpt salary freight U.S. e.g. ( I won't get into the discussion here how hard it is to even get to this point, let's assume you are a lucky guy, and you get your promotion after 5 years in the company) :

10330 US $

- Tax 35 % ( you have to pay US tax in any case!!!!)

= 6715 US $ net ( that is 5200 EURO or 3400 Sterling net !!!! ) :suspect:

there is no medical when retired, no dental and, if you don't live at the base ( and how could you afford to live in New York with that..) substract another 300-500 US a month travelling expenses. profit share ( with record numbers) was a whopping WEEKLY pay, there is no 13th month salary, no housing /school fee on base, no pay rise the last...., jesus,I can't remember,the only bonus you get is a humiliation in the sim every 6 month:hmm:..

with paye in force in Europe soon, the figures there look similar ridiculous !!

[Rice bowl licker]

The attraction to CX (or the value the rest of us appreciate for that matter) is that in addition to your bring home pay CX pays a non-taxable housing allowance for officers based in hong kong, about 4,500 Euro p/month which equates to about USD $70,000.00 annually on-top of your salary (tax free).

As far as retirement schemes, CX has one of the best pilot retirement schemes available. Here in the States, B Plans & A Plans are disappearing fast as a result of airlines bankruptcy’s and being replaced with "matching" programs like 401k but require deductions from your own personal bring-home pay. Some of the most competitive programs are offered by FedEx, UPS & Southwest Airlines but still only match around 6-7% of your own personal contribution.

At CX, they are setting aside 15% of your monthly earnings into either a provident retirement fund or pilots can just elect to take the money upfront for investing in a retirement account. So, instead of a just a 13th month's salary "bonus" or whatever it means to you at the anniversary of your contract, CX is “gifting” you, tax-free, an additional USD $20,000-25,000 specifically for your retirement.

Inclusive of your housing allowance, at CX senior captains probably averaging an extra tax-free $90,000 USD ontop of their salary which is more than any 13th month salary bonus guys are getting in Korea, Japan & Taiwan. I think the whole idea is that CX wants you to stay for a career and even if you're based in the USA (I think) it's still a fantastic place to work.


Here in Nevada after age 65, private healthcare coverage thru Blue Cross probably wont run you anymore than auto insurance, but again that's here in Nevada with our Casino's picking up much of the tab.

As far as taxes go, (also a joke in Nevada haha) in Hong Kong they're so low it's often been said that Hong Kong is a "tax haven." In the U.S. on the other hand where we're typically taxed on our worldwide incomes, we're given an $80,000 tax CREDIT for Income Earned Overseas (http://www.taxalmanac.org/index.php/Foreign_Earned_Income_Exclusion_%28General%29). So, if you're not already taking advantage of that or taking the discretionary factors above into consideration hopefully it's clear now why there are still so many guys out there who think CX pays a decent salary…

[404 Titan]

Rice bowl licker

in addition to your bring home pay CX pays a non-taxable housing allowance for officers based in hong kong,
Wrong. If you take the rental assistance as cash or have the company pay off your mortgage in Hong Kong it is 100% taxable at the highest marginal tax rate of 19%. If you take the rental assistance and register the rental property with the company you pay additional tax that is equivalent to 10% of your gross income at the highest marginal rate, i.e. 19%.
At CX, they are setting aside 15% of your monthly earnings into either a provident retirement fund or pilots can just elect to take the money upfront for investing in a retirement account.
Only those on a base will receive an additional 15.5% of their gross income in cash for them to invest for retirement. If you are based in Hong Kong it will be invested in the company’s provident fund. You will have no choice as to who manages it.

As for you previous post:
If highly volatile fx currency markets are taken out of your 'bring home pay' equation, CX looks like a fantastic place to work. HKG is definitely where the money is at...
What volatile FX market are you talking about? The HK$ is pegged to the US$ so those Americans on a HK base aren’t effected by currency fluctuations. If you are from any other country like me, Australia, my take home pay in Australian dollars has dropped more than 40% in the last five years.:yuk:

[Rice bowl licker]

Wrong. If you take the rental assistance as cash or have the company pay off your mortgage in Hong Kong it is 100% taxable at the highest marginal tax rate of 19%. If you take the rental assistance and register the rental property with the company you pay additional tax that is equivalent to 10% of your gross income at the highest marginal rate, i.e. 19%.You're kidding, 19% MAX tax? those poor Cathay pilots, can't think of any airlines in the U.S. who make a housing allowance available to their flight crews. It all goes to the top. Even if they did, the highest marginal rates in California are so high it's almost cheaper to file for bankruptcy.I think the idea that you'll get something at all to offset cost of living underscores tremendously, the value in working at CX.


Only those on a base will receive an additional 15.5% of their gross income in cash for them to invest for retirement. If you are based in Hong Kong it will be invested in the company’s provident fund. You will have no choice as to who manages it.Fair cop, I don't pretend to work for Cathay but I figured I got the info straight from the horse’s mouth. Allegedly (thanks 404) if you’re based in Hong Kong you have no choice in where to put your retirement so cross your fingers.Like most everyone else in the world, my retimrement & health care benefits are deducted straight out of my paycheck every single month.What volatile FX market are you talking about? If you are from any other country like me, Australia, my take home pay in Australian dollars has dropped more than 40% in the last five years.

The statement contradicts itself...Evidently at least someone else besides me viewing this thread knows how volatile FX markets really are. Based in NYC? I'd leave CO for CX anyday. Good luck, Mark Skid.~R~

[404 Titan]

Rice bowl licker

Before you start trying to debate me about CX, I suggest you do a little research as to my opinions of CX. I am one of the few that don’t get on here and bag CX at every chance. What I do stand up for are facts. I don’t care if you are pro or anti CX, if what you are saying is incorrect and I know it is I will correct you. To come back with some snide remark about “those poor CX pilots” just illustrates to me that debating you is probably pointless. You made a statement that we don’t pay tax on our housing. That is wrong but you seem to have a problem that?
can't think of any airlines in the U.S. who make a housing allowance available to their flight crews.
By the way CX pays a housing allowance because most pilots here are expats. I and most of my colleges wouldn’t be here if housing wasn’t paid for. How many expat pilots work for the US majors? I doubt if it is more than 90% like it is here. CX isn’t alone in providing housing for expats. Most reputable airlines that don’t have a natural pool of home grown pilots all provide housing for expats. Airline like Emirates, Korean, Jal, Singapore etc all provide housing for expat pilots because they have too. Airlines aren’t alone either. Most financial sector companies in this region also pay housing for their expat employees. No one would come here for the long term if it wasn’t just because of the cost of getting something that is similar to what one would expect in their home country.
Like most everyone else in the world, my retimrement & health care benefits are deducted straight out of my paycheck every single month.
They do here as well. One must make contributions to their own provident fund as well and medical insurance isn’t free.
The statement contradicts itself...
It isn’t contradictory at all if you had read and pasted everything I wrote. The HK$ is pegged to the US$ so for an American working for CX and based in HK, he/she is effectively earning US$, just like their American based cousins. Americans though are definitely in the minority here. Most are from Australia, UK, NZ and Canada. All those currencies have significantly appreciated against the US$ and hence the pegged HK$. This has resulted in a significant pay cut for most HK based expats as most have significant debts and expenses in their home countries and hence home currencies.
Evidently at least someone else besides me viewing this thread knows how volatile FX markets really are.
By the way a volatile currency environment is one when the rates are all over the place. For the last five years though the trend has been pretty much in one direction for the US$, down. This isn’t the definition of a volatile currency market when I use to be a currency dealer in my last life.

Good luck though if you want to come here. I would be the last person to try and stop you or suggest otherwise. It isn't the bad place some make it out to be.

[baseddude]

Mark Skid:

Just for clarification: U.S. pilots don't pay for medical benefits. And I don't know of any other based dudes (sorry, I couldn't help it) who have their 15.5% provident fund money invested in Cathay's Provident Fund.

Personally, I invest my 15.5% (and then some) in the U.S. stock market every month. This means I pay taxes on it as income, and I pay taxes again on it when I reap capital gains (or if I'm not as smart as I think I am, I offset my taxes with my capital losses - ouch! I AM a pilot, after all...) The only regular deduction from my paycheck is U.S. federal taxes. I pay estimated state taxes, and no fica, medicare, etc. (although when I end up on the gov't dole in my dotage, I DO plan to collect).

Anyway, the Provident Fund vesting period at Cathay is 10 years. As I understand it, if you leave in year 1, you must return 90% of it to Cathay. Leave in year 2, return 80%. Year 3, 70%, etc... At year 10, you're fully vested, and the money is all yours.

From what I've been able to gather, this is because this 15.5% is WAY ABOVE the minimum Provident Fund contribution in Hong Kong. And I'm really going out on a limb here.... from my research a couple of years ago, I seem to remember that the Provident Fund in Hong Kong is mandatory (that's pronounced man-day-tuh-ree for my fellow unwashed Americans), and portable between employers. So the vesting at Cathay allows you to quit (or be fired), and keep at least the minimum contributions.

The real possibilities of one's sudden dismissal, one's dissatisfaction with Cathay, or one's recall to a better paying job, make "taking the Provident money in cash" a sensible choice - at least for Americans. A bird in the hand, as they say.

By the way, there are many, many sets of "conditions of service" under which pilots work at Cathay. The pilot group is very fragmented in this regard. 404 Titan is in a better position to tell you about his conditions of service in Hong Kong. My point of reference is from USAB freighter conditions of service.

On pay: Sysyphos posted an observation about the pay earlier in this thread, evidently under the impression that the pay is barely a liveable wage in the U.S.

While Cathay is, shall we say, a bit "deliberate" in the area of pay "rises" (don't worry, if you come to CX, you'll discover as an American that your mastery of your mother tongue is a bit lacking), I make a couple of (mainly obvious) points:

1) here in the U.S., we don't pay our mortgage in Pounds Sterling or Euros. We "live on the economy" in U.S. dollars. And first year pay at Cathay has not put me in the poor house. Would I like to make more? Of course. Is my current pay less than 1/2 my pay when I was furloughed from a legacy U.S. carrier? Yes. Am I happy at Cathay? Very happy. By the way, if you're an American thinking about taking a job in Hong Kong, you'd better "do the maths" first, however. Those Benjamins don't go as far abroad as they do here in the U.S. And because the HK dollar is tied to the U.S. dollar, it might not make sense for you.

2) You will make more money at Cathay in your first year (or two) than at almost all U.S. carriers in the first year (or two). After that, one might start looking again at the greener pastures - particularly if Cathay "training" proves not to be fun.

3) My rosters have been fabulous. My "bread and butter month" is 12 days. If I take 2 of my 6 weeks of annual leave in a given month, I'm likely to work anywhere from 3 to 6 days. You should NEVER have to go to HK just for training. This one saves you several days per year in commuting time. They build your recurrent training (RT/PC), Hong Kong medical exams, emergency, CRM training, etc. into your roster. My last RT/PC month was the worst month I've seen at Cathay. As I recall, the trip with the RT/PC was 10 days, and I worked another 5 day trip in that month.

disclaimer: some RPIC rosters and U.S. based command rosters REALLY SUCK. Lots of PX'ing (for you Yanks that's "deadheading"), and lots more work days. As Cathay is basically eliminating the RPIC distinction, that ****e may begin to flow downhill.

Having said all of that, while one may look toward command upgrade as an opportunity to fix the "money problem", the lousy command rosters present another problem. Cathay is nothing if not full of options, however. After 3 years from freighter f/o checkout you can opt to fly on the U.S. passenger fleet as a first officer, killing two birds (scheduling and money, but not the important third, command) with one stone.

baseddude

[Rice bowl licker]

Good luck though if you want to come here. I would be the last person to try and stop you or suggest otherwise. It isn't the bad place some make it out to be.

Took us a while to finally get here but thank you for finessing the point. :D

B.t.w. Basedude, heh thanks profusely for the GREAT perspective, CX sounds like a great place to be right now!

[sisyphos]

my suggestion, rice bowl : print out this thread and keep it.After 1 year in the company, get it out and read it again. THEN you will understand, I guarantee you will vomit into your rice bowl straight away.

But who am I to suggest that, I made the same mistake..:(

[HotDog]

Well sysyphos, after 25 years with Cx and another nine with a cargo outfit in HKG, which eventually became CX also, I consider myself in retirement, to have made an excellent choice to join CX.

[jtr]

HotDog, If I, or indeed almost all of the posters here had of joined CX 34 years ago, I imagine we too would feel the same way.

However... when you joined it was;

Not even A-Scale, since there was only one scale.
Profit share measured in months, not days
Doing 82 hours and doubling ones salary
Sitting in the crew room during a typhoon happy to help out
Renting your own house from yourself ad infinitum
Travel allowance
Expat travel desk
Visual approaches to Kai Tak
etc etc

vs.

Well, do I really need to start?

Don't get me wrong, I wish to take nothing away from you in your retirement, but things have changed a lot old chap, and the relevance of your post to present employment conditions are of no significance at all.

Nice photo by the way. I chuckle every time I see Wan King Path.

[BusBusBus]

Only those on a base will receive an additional 15.5% of their gross income in cash for them to invest for retirement. If you are based in Hong Kong it will be invested in the company’s provident fund. You will have no choice as to who manages it.
Fair cop, I don't pretend to work for Cathay but I figured I got the info straight from the horse’s mouth. Allegedly (thanks 404) if you’re based in Hong Kong you have no choice in where to put your retirement so cross your fingers.Like most everyone else in the world, my retimrement & health care benefits are deducted straight out of my paycheck every single month.

The 15.5% contribution are invested in selected Prudentials Funds (I think there's like 40 or 50 of them to choose from), and employee can make their own funds selection. Unless if you are lazy, the company director will invest the money according to your age/risk profile. So if you are not lazy, you do have a choice on your investment plan.

Also the funds is vested over 10 years period. You get 10% of the funds if you quit after 1st year, 20% after 2nd year, etc. So as long as you don't quit within 10 years, you should be alright. Just my two cents!

bus

[bailee atr]

Thanks for the info bus x3, I was wondering about that my self.

[jack02]

A great place to be in after my first training flight I was looking in the net for some more info. on the aviation issues and then I found this place, actually we are a team who enrolled ourselves to this and are now looking to take our careers to the peak where indeed the sky is the limit.