The offer is out to ANZ guys - thoughts?

[Craic Ore]

On a layover a few days back, got talking to an ANZ 777 Capt and they definately have the 3 year LOA offer on the table to move to Dubai.

How does everyone feel about this? Would the 20 or so guys coming be worth the 50 that'll leave because of it? And is there any talk that they'll be on bases down under?

As usual, shrug my shoulders, whatever. Not my airline, let 'em deal with the fallout.

CO

[CT7]

Nah, no talk of bases other than Dubai.

[MMSOBGYTAST]

Yes it is WRONG.

It will slow commands here and if the shoe was on the other foot, ie, ANZ booming and EK with extra pilots, the unions in NZ would NEVER agree to DEC captains coming in. It is HYPOCRISY at its worst. It is all well and good to say its not me its the company but at the end of the day it is the pilot who will make the decision to screw someone else over.
:yuk:

[BIKKERDENNAH]

HEAR HEAR!!!

seconded!!

NOT Quite Scabs But Almost!!!!!!:{

[White Knight]

Very definately THIRDED.... Looks like the cracks are showing with 45 380's still to come:eek:

[GMDS]

News travels fast. Just got a mail from a buddy back home telling me not to organise the party, as he and another guy will not come down for the assessment. Upgrading way too uncertain now.
Well done EK! :D :yuk:

[Mysalami]

Grit ya teeth,
I think I remember some Ansett NZ guys complaining about fellas taking their jobs a while ago. Very small place this world.

[CT7]

Er from what I understood from the briefing, the positions were for F/Os with only in exceptional circumstances would there be DE commands.
And that would be for a set term contract not perm.
Same conditions (F/Os) as the EK chaps and if they want to stay, so be it.
Air NZ would prefer to get rid of the 767 drivers. It's that fleet that is over staffed.

[ernestkgann]

What exceptional circumstances would be acceptable for an Air NZ captain to join our merry band? Unless he permanently resigns from his union protected position at home then I don't believe there are any.

[CT7]

Pass. Training role maybe. I dunno, me not captain.
It's you guys that are looking for drivers.
And what's the union got to do with it anyway?

[BIKKERDENNAH]

So all these boys and maybe girls thinking of coming to play in the sand for three years on a contract!! Will they be subjected to the EK assesment like everybody else ORRRRR just sign up and head over like a contract pilot and then those boys ORRRR girls after 3 years decide to stay do they then have to do the EK assesment.:confused:

TECHNICALLY NOT SCABS BUT GETTN SMELLY!!!!!!:sad:

[zk-dxb]

I've seen the paperwork sent out to Air NZ pilots, offering leave-without-pay and the opportunity to work in the ME, but it is for Etihad, seen or heard nothing from friends regarding a package from EK.

[Craic Ore]

You may know more than me, but I got it directly from an ANZ Capt that they are essentially being offered a 3 year contract to come to EK. DECs and FOs alike. The cheeses are getting desperate I guess and fishing in any pond they can find......

[zk-dxb]

The paperwork I have seen is a package developed between EY and NZ and offered to 767 and 320 pilots who, if judged suitable by EY, will be offered 330 ratings or work on the EY767 for between 1 & 3 years. The package comes attached with lengthy briefing document from Capt GN, who recently left EK to join EY flt ops mgmt.
There are positions offered for 12 320 F/O for 3 years, they will join the seniority list and keep the seniority if at the end of the 3 years they resign from ANZ and join EY. No upgrades unless you resign NZ and join EY.
There are 7 F/O and 7 Capt 767 positions on offer for a period of 1 year, (extendable by agreement between EY & NZ), with the same seniority/upgrade provisions and 330 ratings if they resign from Air NZ.
The HR Manager at EY has the same name as a guy who used to be in HR at ANZ a few years back which may be relevant!
This is a package available as part of the measures to 'rebalance' pilot number on fleets as the B767 is withdrawn downunder. A pilot in the appropriate fleet/ranks can apply for the 3 years LWOP for any reason so there is nothing to stop a pilot coming to EK, that is EXCEPT the EK requirement that a pilot must have proof of resignation from their previous employer. I've no idea whether that is a requirement written in stone or in water.
Most things in aviation seem written in the latter...

[CT7]

Same recruitment process as any other person applying to EK. Im just saying what the 2 Ricks said at the briefing. They prefer to promote from within. Ay DEC would have to go through a tougher selection as well.
Was your 777 capt actually at the briefing?

[fo4ever]

If they come I go

[TangoUniform]

Ah, but the question is, what will their pay be?

[logan]

I was at the briefing by the 2 Ricks for Air NZ pilots to go to EK (FO). In essence the ONLY difference we were offered was the fact that we don't have to resign from ANZ. We have to stay 3.5 years to work off the bond. NO upgrade unless resign from NZ. EK's hope being that at the end of 3.5 years some may choose to stay and then take up command if in seniority,Etc, Etc.
Sounded to me like they were aware of the grief DEC's were going to cause and did not push it.
Hope that helps the Ready, Fire, Aim brigade!!

[LHR Rain]

No DECs now or ever again. Not from NZ or anywhere. How much more direct do we have to be?
The geniuses at EK should realize that they bring in 30 ANZ they lose 50 EK pilots. Does that work for the airline?
Also it now can be confirmed as of late Feb EK had a net gain of 7 pilots. That is right they only gained 7 pilots with recruitment going full on. How many more resignations are going to push them over the edge?

[atiuta]

There are some very sad people out there.

What issue should an Emirates pilot have with an NZ pilot joining EK under the LWOP deal?

If your only bitch is that they don't have to bring a resignation letter, then get a life.

If you don't want to see DEC's, then grumble at AAR (if you have the balls) but guess what? DEC's will come regardless and taking it out on an individual contract pilot (and that is what we all are) is nothing short of pathetic.

I'm also assuming of course that the anti-DEC knockers would never take a DEC position in another airline themselves. I'm also assuming that if they are an FO in EK, then they are one of the very few remaining that joined prior to DEC recruitment becoming active again. That's right "again" because EK has always hired DEC's. Do they need to? Now that's a different story, but whinging against the individual will achieve squat.

However, I doubt very much that we will even see a DEC joining EK (ex NZ)on this deal especially if he takes tax into account. So I guess we're only talking FO's and I go back to my original question.

[NO LAND 3]

Yup, if we are all honest, just about the only realistic option to get out of this place is as a DEC somewhere. I certainly would. So lets not get too sanctimonious. My original point about Air NZ DECs though relates to the fact that while on LWOP they are still a party to the NZALPA negotiated contract which includes a scope clause effectively preventing DECs in Air NZ. IFALPA does have a history of expecting even non-involved non-union pilots to respect a principle. For example the Cathay hiring ban a few years back.
Just pointing out the double standard, I find it of academic interest more than anything.

[ernestkgann]

Philosophically speaking, what's wrong with this argument? In ek the pilots (and all other workers) rely on the benevolence of management to change terms and conditions, flight time and duty limits, fatigue management and pay. Generally speaking managers will always provide the minimum in these areas because their mandate is maximum profit.
Given that this is the case then a lack of workers willing to engage with the company because they feel that items of the whole package are not up to scratch would lead to managements having to address the issues that need resolution. Personally my beef is mostly about fatigue and FTL issues and the long term viability of a job with ek.
It follows then that a group of pilots who are still effectively employed by another company (although not being paid) and who have some labour representation will work against the interests of the larger group. I assume also that the ANZ contract chaps will still be represented by their old union as they still have links to ANZ.

[atiuta]

The so called "contract" pilots will actually be Emirates pilots with a thread back to NZ. The only difference to other EK pilots with the same options is that the EK/NZ link will be official. I don't see any sledging of the other pilots on this thread.

As for NZALPA representation, I heard the board were on there way to Dubai next week to hold discussions with AAR about terms and conditions for their members.....

Serioulsy, I guess they will have representation in NZ and globally through IFALPA should they ever require it. Nothing stopping any of us from joining an afilliated body and paying the appropriate fees but I doubt that you will get value for money if you require representation in a Sharia court.

....as for

work against the interests of the larger group

Now which unified group would that be?

Why does the tone have to be so animostic towards a group of predominately FO's trying to gain employment with Emirates. Just like you and I did.

[BIKKERDENNAH]

ATIUTA

You are either an idiot or missing the point entirely!!

They are NOT EK FOs being gainfully employed they are NZ pilots on loan via a seperate contractual agreement for 3 years in which time they can be used by Emirates as a stop gap for their stupidity and shortsightedness!!

SCABS not QUITE but ALMOST!!!!

[PITA]

Looking at this thread...... the big question I ask is just WHO is going to What airline?
Are the AZ guy's going to EK or EY or both, cause I can't figure this out from all of the Scab calling and slagging being bantered around?
WTF over.

[ShockWave]

Atiuta did not miss the point and his points hardly make him stupid. Every one's ranting, raving, bitching and windging is another matter however.

Why does every thread with the slightest mention of DECs and new recruitment schemes result in such childish over reaction? Yes we all know you may have had your command delayed by your perceptions and are p_ssed off. Get over it. Life is short enjoy it while you can and don't buy into pointless, hateful diatribes.

Try and keep the big picture in focus guys and not be so insular.

So, what if you manage to scare off all potential recruits for the next year?

Do you think that you will get better conditions or an earlier upgrade?

If so at what cost?

How many aircraft will end up getting parked up against the fence?

You will not be able to do your upgrade until an F/O has been hired and trained to do your job first. By exaggerating the DEC situation beyond reality you are not doing yourselves any favours at all, in fact you do more harm to yourself and the rest of us working for EK than good.

The one constant in EK is it's expansion if we can't support it and aircraft have to be parked, sold or delayed then the whole thing comes to an end and we all end up working for a company that is stagnant. Then you will have to wait for people to die, retire or resign before you get an opportunity to upgrade. Most of us have been there and hope to hell never to see it again.

EK is simply trying to recruit for it's needs and plan for it's future requirements, as it can. If you plan on sticking around for any length of time then EK's future is your future. Don't f_ck it up. They make enough mistakes without your help.:ugh:

[NO LAND 3]

Ahhh...point of order! Only one or two extremists on this thread, the rest are having a relatively mature philosophical discussion. You are supposed to ignore the idiots Atiuta.

[atiuta]

I know, but it felt good making the case regardless!

Animosity towards the DEC policy (not the individual) while competent FO's were left behind was understandable. To continue the same sentiment towards FO's on an Emirates contract is beyond belief.

Bikkerdennah

Using your analogy, we are all stop gap measures!

Looking back at one of your previous posts, you asked if the NZ pilots had to go through the EK selection process or not but then proceeded to lambast them for good measure just in case they didn't. Common knowledge being the only difference for these applicants is that they will not need to produce a letter of resignation from their current employer. It is highly likely that some will not pass the selection process, lucky for them they have a job to go back to.

Comparing them to scabs without all the facts is dangerous territory especially considering their collective work with NZALPA and IFALPA on national and international issues. Can you make the same claim? Before you bag any of them to their face, it may pay to check if they are actually on LWOP or if they have resigned outright because you won't be able to tell otherwise.

At the same time and to ensure a consistency of applied animosity, I assume that you will apply your questionable principles to all of those that may be in a similar situation.

By the way, lay off the name calling and emotive speak least we mistake your intelligence and identity for someone else.

[Go You Good Thing]

An interesting but also sensitive thread. Having been an expat for a number of years you tend to take advantage of the tax free benifits that are available to you when working in a so called tax free country. To receive these benefits you have to be a non resident and taxation authorities normally produce a large document detailing what is required. Short term contracts can pose a few problems if you do not meet non residency status and you will normally be taxed on the income that you earn. If you are flying down under then you are lucky as you enjoy the benifits and protection that your union offers. If you are a kiwi and are considering taking up a short term contract in the Middle East then I am thinking you may want to become non resident. One of the requirements is that you must resign from all clubs and societies that you belong too. LWOP is great if you can take advantage of the offer but this place can be frustrating and is some what over rated. If you are looking for a change then come and have a look and decide for yourself but to take advantage of the tax free benifits you will have to leave your protection behind.

[imatomatoe]

My thought is that ShockWave is being deliberately inflammatory.

If EK want to have satisfied crew then they need to make the job attractive to its present and to its prospective employees. Dissatisfied crew are not going to endorse or keep quiet about a shrinking employment package.

Its not so long since EK recruited mainly from first world countries with almost zero wastage, now it recruits mainly from the third world with wastage rising rapidly through 10% per annum.

The EK job maybe attractive to people from South America, Africa and parts of South East Asia but it now attracts few people from Europe, North America, Australia and parts of the Far East. In fact its the people from these last mentioned backgrounds that are now leaving EK. The poacher has become the poached.

Lets say that 30 ANZ F/Os come to EK and in 3 years when the contract ends 25 of them go back to NZ then EK will have done nothing but defer the problem for 3 years.

These Band Aid solutions don't cut it, and if EK won't pay the right price to attract and retain the right people in the right numbers, then they will pay a greater commercial price in the months and years to come.

And ShockWaves pretence that EK is following the right commercial path is naive in the extreme. A competitive salary package is needed now.

[411A]

It really doesn't matter what current EK guys think, the upper management, which apparently has not been the brightest, past or present, finds themselves in a pickle.
They need more bodies, yet the ones they have (some anyway) are not especially satisfied.
This very same situation was also at SV years ago, and the management there was quite open about the subject...don't like our policies, quit and move on.
Many expats stayed, some moved on, but nevertheless the airline, which is the olderest in the middle east, survives to this day...with or without complainers.
If EK can recruit new Commanders directly (with perhaps an increased salary incentive) and the First Officer hiring pool is full, why would EK then pay extra to upgrade present First Officers?
Hiring outside has been, and always will be, the more cost effective option.
And, by doing so, the EK management has another tangible benefit...it weeds out those who might otherwise be a thorn in managements side.

[Not from here]

Its all a bit academic as having just returned from the land of the long white cloud, as part of the deal the ANZ guys have to pay tax in NZ so as not to lose there super,
The salaries offered by EK after NZ tax is less then they earn now, so talking to the guys down here very few if any will be heading to the sand pit.
They also have some pretty attractive offers from Jet Korean and Japen etc
So don't see to many heading North

[MTOW]

An EK salary paying UnZud tax? Gawd, the psychs should take a close look at the sanity of anyone signing on for that package.

The only people likely to take it would be someone doing a runner from some personal crisis. I suppose some could put a positive spin on it - anyone taking the package to get away from alimony or maitenance payments could easily prove he was making la LOT ess money in Dubai than he was in UnZud.

[med757]

I've been a quiet reader on this forum for a while, just trying to grasp info on flying in the Middle East. I currently fly in North America, and I am one of those applicants interested in joining EK. I've been reading this thread and, besides all the mudslinging, I'm still sorting through the posts to get the following questions answered.....


1) Why is Emirates not upgrading the 3 yr FO's that they have on property? I figure EK does a thorough screening process, that they would have the qualified individuals to become captains after 3 yrs.

2) Why is EK so deeply involved on getting pilots from NZ, what is the incentive for both companies to provide this work exchange? Regardless of some of the negative views on this forum towards EK, doesnt EK have a large enough pool of applicants wanting to join from other countries?

3) Besides personal reasons and potential lifestyle, what incentive does a NZ pilot have to take this offer to go to EK?

Thanks,
Med757

[atiuta]

1. Gulf Air had an accident a few years back. CFIT into the water on an A320, all were killed. As a result of this accident, it was decided at a very high level in Emirates that FO's should serve 4 yrs (since reduced to 3 yrs) in the company before upgrade. Current time to command was < 2yrs at the time. An incredibly arbitary and pointless limitation and one that is still in force.

2. Many questions in one. Emirates is short of Captains, FO's and trainers....probably short in every other department as well. Incentive for Emirates - they need pilots now, even if they come on LWOP from NZ and may go back. An assumption has probably been made that a number (??) will stay. Incentive for NZ - much better to give LWOP for overstaffing than downtraining and furlough.

3. Everyone has their own reasons but I doubt leaving NZ for lifestyle would be one of them.

[Marooned]

Med757:

The current situation is a sad reflection on the internal management of the company. We have had the short term gain and are now beginning to suffer the longer term pain.

The management were warned several years ago that the current pilot shortage would happen unless we implimented training programmes to recruit more pilots and to bring our 'own' pilots through and get ahead of the game. This was not done and we ended up with DECs as a result and now the spectre of contract pilots.

NZ pilots are a symptom of the crisis EK is in. Long term underinvestment in the training department has led directly to the lack of capacity to train enough pilots. The shortage of pilots is exacerbated by the problems of recruiting and a steady stream leaving.

We have now signed a multi million £ deal with BA to train our pilots ironically because we could not attract trainers internally due to the pay. We have offers on the table for contract crews. We have aircraft waiting to be delivered for new routes to be flown. Q: How much is this costing? Surely more than it would have been to try and have foreseen the problems in the first place.

But this is EK. 'Reaction' not 'proaction'. This short term view at the expense of its employees is one of the reasons EK as an employer has suffered so much and so publically here and elsewhere. Its word is worthless and any assurances given are equally worthless especially when considering a career here.

NZ pilots to EK? The main incentive would be that they can go back home and that any length of time spent here they would soon realise how well off they are back at home.

Their introduction however will create a great deal of anger and consternation 'disadvantaging' many F/Os awaiting their chance of command. They could do us all a favour here by staying over there.

[MR8]

I can't really see the problem of those NZ guys coming over if they want to. On the contrary, I think it could be a blessing for all of us, on the condition that NO NZ Captains can come, only F/O's.

The company is desperately looking for quality pilots, but only a few are still coming. This means harder work for all of us, since we are not enough to fly those planes. So, the more people can come to help us out, the better.

Also, if these F/O's come, they get a place on the EK seniority, and will not bypass a single person who joined before them. That is of course if EK plays the game as it should be played (which it probably won't). Oncde their 3 years is done, they can decide, either to stay, or to go back to NZ. I can not see any difference with a 'normal' applicant, except from the fact that these guys can go back if they wish to. Well, a lot of us can/could go back to their former employer if they wished to, even though we officially resigned to come to EK.

As for the union thing... makes me laugh. The NZ union boys have absolutely nada to say in this. They might fight their battle with Air NZ for conditions for the boys who take up the offer, but what can they possibly do towards EK? These boys will sign each an individual contract with EK if they pass the screening... not really different from us. Or do you really think that if all the UK guys suddenly joined BALPA, that they would have representation?? No way...

So kiwi-boys, you're more then welcome as F/O's, but leave those damn DEC's in the land with the long white cloud...

MR8

[GMDS]

Well put Marooned.
Concerning this sad situation, greed and short term profit is certainly one of the main reasons, specifically on the owners and the lower accounting managements side. Looking at upper management levels, and this should be very important to realise for ek wannabees, there is unfortunately another reason which is the well developped hatred for pilots. The CEO can't stand us, therefore as long as this poor man is up there, we will i.e. never get the jump seat for us: THIS is a extremely serious deficit at EK. A little further down there is the VPO, a engineer without the slightest clue as to what our job consists of, with the universal envy of his breed of only beeing able to flick it's switches but never ever to fly the big bird itself. THIS reflects in the inhuman FDR's, as they are seen as eternal revenge for their graciously giving us the honorable oportunity to serve EK and its profit and leaving behind our own aspirations.

[Aircav]

Med757,

The simple and real reason (not Gulf Air A320) is COST.

The mismangement and accountants have worked out that it is cheaper in the short term to employ DEC's and contract pilots. If you are an MFF Airbus FO they need to replace both a 330 FO and a 340 FO as well as give you an upgrade, so work it out. Same for 777, two courses for upgrade as opposed to one for DEC, although as they are so short all 777 FO's are being upgraded at 3 years. Airbus is now up to 4.5 years as of last month!!!!

Also because of being CHEAP they failed to respond to the situation when they could by over crewing both fleets before the Aircraft started arriving. We are now in the stage that we require a lot of pilots on both fleets, but guess what, the Boeing is more desperate so they are all going there leaving another shortfall on the Bus:D . Catch 22:ugh: So what will happen when the A380 starts arriving????? Thank God for Airbus, becuse if they had been on time the whole pack of cards would have come down by now.

The sad thing about this fiasco is that they have learned nothing.

Keep recovering.;)

[Flying Spag Monster]

MR8 I can only agree with you that EK needs more pilots to ease the workload on the current crews but I can't agree with you regarding NZ guys coming here. Pilots at EK have no representation so we are at the mercy of management as far as Ts and Cs are concerned. There will never be an improvement if there is no shortage of crews. Supply and Demand 101. That is the only leverage we have to improved conditions. NZ guys coming on a 3 year "test drive" does not help us at all in this regard. It is very different to guys being recruited in the normal fashion. ie, if there are thousands applying, we get no improvement in Tand Cs but if they don't arrive than we do, the 6% pay rise would not have happened if there was no shortage...simple.

So as I see it NZ guys who have the right to negotiate their package at home, will directly effect the only option we have for an improvement in ours....simple.

[MR8]

FSM, I can see where you are coming from, and in a way I do agree with you. What you say makes sense, and indeed, without representation, the only way for our T&C's to improve is a staff shortage.

Having said that, I still cannot see a big difference between the NZ guys and myself for example. When I came to EK, officially I did resign, but I knew my previous company would take me back whenever I want to return. Although it was not written on paper, the company knew me and would take me back anytime.

As I understood out of the previous posts, the NZ guys would have to do the same interview to join, would have a three year bond and thereafter can decide if they want to stay or go.. Only difference is that it's written on paper for these guys.

Of course, if the kiwi boys get a different treatment than 'normal' EK pilots, then it's a completely different matter.

Something that would be unacceptable would be the hiring of contract Captains, but that's the same discussion as the DEC one.

MR8

[Flying Spag Monster]

OK I can see it from your point of view, but for me and many others there was no going back unless you went back to the bottom. So to come here there was risk, and to accept that risk there was reward, ie the package. Now to keep people coming, EK can increase the reward which we all benefit from, or reduce the risk, which favours only guys like those from NZ. I guess we will have to wait and see if the rumour becomes fact and what the details are. At any rate, I can't see it as a positive for me.

[atiuta]

Sounds like a case of "WIFM & The Green Eyed Monster".

One things for sure, I doubt that any professional reading some of the thoughts here would be that keen on joining Emirates....

Oh I get it now....duh....try to put applicants off, Emirates doesn't get pilots, package increases....

:rolleyes:

PIDGAS

[Flying Spag Monster]

Atiuta, you are wrong with your assumption, I would like people to come, I don't want to work 90-100 long/short haul hrs a month for ever. EK needs pilots to expand and that will help my life style. But market forces are our only tool for change in conditions and the cycle in our favour does not come around very often. It is here now and I would like to see it benefit me and the others who are already here, not to much to ask. On the balance I am happy here, happy enough to stay anyway. No one has to post here to put people off, the Ts and Cs are doing that for us and hooray for that.

[Marooned]

What I do not understand is why we constantly avoid tackling the issue of Ts & Cs and do everything else which is costing more?

One way or another EK is losing out by not attracting the pilots it needs, experienced pilots resigning, sub-contracting training, hiring contract pilots etc etc. I cannot believe that they have chosen the cheapest option.

[fatbus]

looks bad when you need to use the airlines you compete with to do your training ie; BA and SQ. do you get the feeling the fat lady is clearing her throat?oh but there never will be basings, i guess you should never say never

[scanscanscan]

Interestingly (possibly)... the managers dream of DEC Commanders occured in Gulf Air 1975 onwards.
Unfortunately it did not remain a dream and soon a whole raft of BA and RAF and Cathay retired and LWOP from other major career airlines were direct entried onto the new Gulf Air L1011 fleet as Captains,First Officers and Flight engineers.
Their daily allowance was more than twice the going rate for GF crews and their salery was started at the 10years of service increment level....when I asked why... the explanation was they expect more than ex Dan Air UK pilots!
Also they were given first crack at the better GF houseing.
To improve Gulf Air First officer morale further... the Gulf Air operations manager at that time a Mr Peter Bruce Souster issued a memo to the effect that all future Gulf Air Commanders would be Nationals or DEC.. BA or Cathay retirees... if there were no National was available...another board of directors dream that eventually turned into an operations department nightmare...this memo was cancelled after the number of excellent GF Captains and first officers resigned to go to airlines such as Laker, SIA and Cathay.
Even flight engineers decided to walk or resign and some joined BA for a career, life style, and pension....all highly ready trained previousely for GF by BA at great cost... on LVP on the L1011.
Some crew even went to Saudia..which showed just how peeded off people were as Saudi was not considered the ideal airline career.
Some Gulf Air Captains even took F.O. positions with Cathay.
Company loyalty just fell apart in three years thanks to DEC policy and other attacks on terms and conditions.
All this eventually proved so not cost effective that even the management noticed that quality career first officers and flight engineers now refused to join GF and to top it all off the BA and Cathay Commanders already here decided they did not like non union treatment much, or the min rest, and only 28day rosters, issued late and had the nerve to say so and when ignored resigned or jumped ship.....after about four years it all went away and things got back to normal....however the poison had been laid and the spirit of the operations department destroyed...now as soon as someone got a command they then went to SIA or basically anywhere....and to prove a point some of the fully funded from zero flight time local pilots did too!...
This GF management policy did continue in other areas of terms and conditions and eventually IMHO progressively ratcheting down the terms and conditions produced a series of serious incidents and eventually the A320 crash and has resulted in the past six years of misery and problems and caused Gulf Air to arrive at what it is today....I find it very interesting (seeing what these policies produced at Gulf Air) why other airlines now follow this same management style 30+ years on....maybe I do not see the management "bigger picture" and only remember the horror of the Gulf Air A320 crash shown on the BBC TV when I had been retired....I feel the first drop of GF crash poison was laid all thoes years ago....and I feel the results at EK could be the same....someone once said..."Forgive them father for they know not what they do"...maybe that is why they are called managers and not pilots and why I do not understand it all.:}

[Marooned]

To ignore the lessons of the past we condemn ourselves to make the same mistakes...

Sadly history seems to be repeating itself in EK.

[L1011]

scanscan,

The head-honcho at EK learned his craft as a manager at GF. Perhaps he was there during the cluster-$#@& you mentioned and has always thought it was a good idea.:ugh:

[Aircav]

Scanscanscan,

well said, please forward to EK mismangement, they need a history lesson.:D