OZ Tiger?

[Dixons Cider]

Whats the go? Anybody heard what the latest is?
It all seems to have gone a bit quiet...last I heard they were going thru the AOC process, so that'll take time I guess.

What about the EOI, anybody got any any feed back??

Just interested to see where they are going to place themselves in the supposed 'pilot shortage' market.

[pilotdude09]

They want the Aussie public to help 'create' their domestic route network.
Go here to vote: http://www.tigerairways.com/oz/ozwelcome.php

They have an ABN number.

But they will have to offer a decent service to stay alive.

We have:
JQ: LCC
DJ: Inbetween LCC and Full service
QF: Full service on some routes

So the question is where will Tiger fit in?:cool:

[alky]

There must be room somewhere for them. Jetstar just got another 9 A320s to counter Tigers start up and Virgin have hinted at an Ultra LCC offshoot.

If they offer the same service at a slightly lower cost, it won't take long to wrestle some of QFs 65% and a lot of VBs 35% away.

[Managers Perspective]

Looks like both current main players are gearing up for a turf war.

Not sure any of us are the winners in that process, sure there will be some cheap tickets for a while but it will put pressure on current operators and their staff.

M.P.

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

...........too bad jet* & vb won't be able to get any pilots to crew their increase in fleets. tiger will scuffle all the available drivers in oz with better t & c's and no paying for endorsements..................

[boocs]

TSI, have heard something similar.

If you or anone else out there is in the know, could you please comment on the medium term fleet expansion plans of Tiger in Australia. In particular the widebodies.

Thx.
b.

[alky]

I'm not in the know but from what they've said in the media, only domestic stuff with the A320s is on their radar.

However, and it's a big however. It's been mentioned on another thread that Singers has possibly got 5 340s they want to offload onto Tiger for long haul.

[Dixons Cider]

...........too bad jet* & vb won't be able to get any pilots to crew their increase in fleets. tiger will scuffle all the available drivers in oz with better t & c's and no paying for endorsements..................

Thats exactly what i'm getting at - If they need drivers, they are going to have to lure them....so whats the basis of the above? rumour control outa control? or something a bit more concrete??

[Guptar]

Theres hundreds if not thousands of GA guys who have missed out on QF, bombed out at stage one, dont know anyone from DJ so no Blue Star recomendation, missed out on REX etc, currently living in the middle of nowhere. I know of some top operators who have missed out. Currently flogging around in beat up GA aircraft making next to nothing. Many have thousands of hrs.

They, we, Iwould jump atthe chance to fly something decent or at least reliable. All it would take is a salary on the other side of 50K.

Pilot shortage...........pfffft.

[ScottyDoo]

operators ..... Currently flogging around in beat up GA aircraft making next to nothing. Many have thousands of hrs.

Thousands, you say... This is an outrage. These highly experienced drivers are being wasted. They should all be in jet-airliners NOW.

[xkred27]

Nice attitude Guptar, no wonder T & C at our airlines are getting worse. The airlines know of losers like you willing to fly jets for 50 K. Stay where you are..............D...head

[Guptar]

xkred27

I would contend that you, in fact have the poor attitude. It seems you are someone who has "made it", one of the chosen ones. Someone who is godlike and must be treated like royalty.

It is no wonder that pilots have become mercenary, with the attitudes of the haves versus the have nots. The I;m alright thanks jack attitude that some airline drivers have, is one a poor reflection on the state of the industry.

Its no wonder that Geoff Dixon is sitting back laughing to himself, watching the way the pilot group from GA to the airlines fragment into small pieces that are easily played off against each other.

Maybe T& C standards are falling because some the likes of you are spending less time in the books and more time looking in the mirror thinking " how dam good am I".

You cant have it both ways, fight for pay and conditions over the whole industry, yes even for the much despised 402 drivers and the untouchable caste.......instructors ..............or face the prospect of guys who will do YOUR job for 1/3 of the money.

[alky]

Play nice girls.

Can we get back on topic now.

[Alien Role]

Guptar...
Well,well; ever thought that your response to xkred27 may be just what one aspect of "stage 1" is designed to achieve - -personality profiling.
Ever thought also, that some who are prepared to do the job for 1/3 the rate may be only able to do it at something less than 3/3 the standard?

Role on...

[xkred27]

Guptar, I will be nice. I spent plenty of years is GA. All I wanted from when I was young was to be in Cathay. I was offered an interview during their recruitment ban. I rejected the interview, because sometimes you have to bite the bullet and respect what the current pilots in the airline are trying to achieve. I was never again offered an interview............Don't panic, you WILL get your chance. hang tight and don't except poor T & C for an airline job. You think your working hard now, you'll work harder in J* and VB.

[neville_nobody]

If you can't get through a regional interview in this day and age then you really are not prepared enough or your flying skills are not up to scratch. It ain't that difficult.

Even if Rex give you the boot there still is Skippers, Network, Jetcraft, all the QF regionals, O'Connors, Pelair......the list goes on.

If Tiger want to hurt Jetstar all they have to do is up the ante on the pay and they would be flooded with ready to go type endorsed pilots. I somehow feel that Tiger is not going to help anyone flying around GA in the bush. They will be looking for typed pilots, and failing that heavy turboprop drivers, not GA bugsmasher guys.

[Mr. Hat]

The day will come where the companies with the worst conditions will sink as they struggle to replace and train experienced staff that leave.

Supply and demand. Companies that have worked out that times have changed will survive.

[Guptar]

Xkred, thanks for ur post. I dont want T & C to get any worse, but unless the pilot community sticks together and acts as one entitiy, from 152 driver to A380, then the various airline managers are going to divide and conquer.

Then, if it become open slather, a 737/A320 slot at even 40K will be double what most guys down the bottom of the foodchain are on.

Has taken me 7 years and nearly 2000 hrs to get my first salaried flying job, even then I make $15 a week less than the chicks at Safeway.

Havent had a regional interview yet, havent applied. But does anyone have a guide as to what the interview proces is like.

[UNOME]

Please excuse my claim to suffrage however.....

Do you still really believe that TIGER_SIA.COM :} is really interested in domestic??

51% Aussie ownership after 1yr...where too then my friend??:ok:

heeelllooo weeesssttt cccoooaasstttt :E

[kellykelpie]

The pressure on terms and conditions is upward in the rest of the world.

Emirates are now rumoured to be offering 1 million as a ten year completion of contract bonus. This is no suprise in Asia as pilot retention is becoming a real problem.

Tiger is hiring pilots now for the Oz base but contracted for Singapore initially. It is going to be really hard for the LCCs to retain guys and this is bound to flow on to Australia as Jetstar, Virgin and even Qantas guys start to leave for Emirates, Etihad etc.

Once you get on the back of the drag curve as far as pilots numbers, retention, hold files, suitable applicants, training slots and costs, it is a vicious cycle. Standards are not as good-more training, less check out ratios - wasted training, people leave because they are worried about job security etc etc

Lets see what happens in Oz when this starts to bite!!

[Chocks Away]

The pressure is already biting in the Oz region... just that poor management don't want to listen to the warning signs, that have been evident for some time...:ugh:
...QF AND VB exodis to the Middle East, PB mass resignations, ANZ many "leave with out pay"... VB cancelling flights (+PB soon!?), Rex and Eastern losing many, as is Skips... Cathay/HK Airlines/Lion Air/Dragon ramping up more, if not already in high training mode... I could go on...
The call to management to "Wake up and smell the coffee" is being heard in many board rooms. :}
Happy landings, which ever path you choose:ok:

[IFF]

I asked the same question. See Emirates come to town page 5
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=265812&page=5

[tinpis]

Darwhine base Bus anyone?



Tiger pounces on Darwin den
EXCLUSIVE By ALISON BEVEGE
10apr07

LOW-COST airline Tiger Airways plans to use Darwin as its transport hub in Australia.

But chief executive Tony Davis yesterday refused to say if that meant the city would be the airline's national headquarters.

Mr Davis said Darwin would gradually be built up as Tiger's hub _ linking future domestic Australian services with Asian routes.

``Our vision for Darwin would be that it becomes a natural connecting point between Asia and the rest of Australia,'' he told the Northern Territory News yesterday.

The move means Territorians would have access to Tiger's expected low-cost domestic airfares once the services were running.

An influx of stop-over tourists is also likely as passengers may take short breaks between connecting flights to see what the Northern Territory has to offer. Tiger Airways uses Airbus A320s.

Mr Davis said the five-hour flying range made Darwin the logical choice as a gateway to Asian destinations. ``What we're not interested in doing is flying non-stop, say, from Asia to the east coast of Australia, as we'd have to buy different types of aircraft,'' Mr Davis said.

While he would not be drawn on where Tiger may base its Australian headquarters, Darwin International Airport chief executive Ian Kew said he expected it would be Melbourne or Brisbane.

``We'd be delighted for Tiger to set up an Australian head office in Darwin,'' Mr Kew said. ``But I don't think that will happen. I think they are planning to base five aircraft in one location _ Melbourne or Brisbane.''

Mr Kew said Darwin would still benefit from the increased services _ and said he thought the move could be soon.

``We're not sure of their timetable but it could well happen by the end of the year,'' he said.

Mr Kew and Tourism Minister Paul Henderson lobbied Tiger Airways in February for domestic services and to urge it to use Darwin as its Australian headquarters.

The airline gained approval from the Foreign Investment Review Board last month to establish a domestic Australian operation.

It is now working with the Civil Aviation Safety Authority to get domestic permits to fly, with services expected to start later this year.


http://www.ntnews.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,21530387,00.html

[Stubby]

I cant believe anyone actually still thinks that Australia is big enough for a third airline :ugh:

[GORN ROUND]

Third airline?

QANTAS, or should I say QAS, because they don't got to NT anymore?

JETSTAR.

VIRGIN.

I think that there is already 3.

Thankfully ANSETT fell over otherwise we would have had 4 airlines in a country that everyone thinks can only support 2 airlines.:ugh:

Bring on the Tiger.

Bring on the Kiwi.

The more airlines offering cheap airfares the better.

The road toll will be reduced even further.:D

[resboy]

for the millionth and first time Qantas STILL flies to NT ... :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

jetstar is yet to see the light of day in AYQ, ASP and GOV

JQ supplements QF on ADL-DRW and BNE-DRW

JQ replaced QF on MEL-DRW and DRW-SIN

QF/QFlink still offer ex DRW to CNS, GOV, BNE, SYD, ASP, ADL n PER

life is not over

[Lodown]

IMHO VB is the airline with most to lose. With codesharing, Tiger will be in a very strong position. VB has been too slow going international. I would expect a few pax to transfer from QF initially, but a far greater percentage will come from VB. The same goes for pilots.

[Luke SkyToddler]

So does anyone have any gen what Tiger T&C's will actually be?

[56P]

I can not see any VB or J* drivers leaving to join OzTiger!

[otto the grot]

Agreed 56P. Jetstar pilots are on a pretty good run at the moment (quick commands, new types coming, home at night on the domestic ops.)

Virgin pilots however, from what i hear, are very unhappy with their side of things and the prospect of getting into Tiger early before they tear VB to shreads could be a smart move. Even if they had to pay for a new type (A320)

However, the SIA boss has been reported stating that Tiger Oz will need to get there hands quickly, on as many narrow body aircraft as they can to support the expected growth. Airbus AND Boeing. So with 737s possibly in the mix, VB pilots may be looking at a free pass out.

[Trashed Aviator]

Whats happening about recruitment has anybody been contacted yet.

[harrogate]

It's interesting to see lots of this discussion about Tiger's prospects being based around where Australian staff and crews will take their careers, as opposed to where the customers will take their business. Yes - before anyone starts - I know this a forum for airline industry professionals, but the prospects for Tiger and problems they will have to overcome are plain to see. And they're significant.

Tiger's going to need a LOT of time and money to survive the knee-jerk reactions of VB and J*/Qantas. There will be a squeeze, which these other ailrines can sustain for quite a while, albeit hammering their bottom line (as hard as a 5 plane start-up can hammer its competitors). Such steps are often necesarry in the interests of longevity, though. That's not news.
In the current climate of massive, and frankly often unreal expectations in business, I'm curious to see just how far the Tiger benefactors will go to try and break into Australia.

Personally - and be assured, I REALLY couldn't give a **** what happens, afterall, I'm just a tourist in OZ, although I have a certain level of expertise when it comes to lo-co, for what it's worth - I think the true european-style lo-co model (yes, I know it's originally American, yadda, yadda, yadda) that Tiger are bringing to Oz with their retail-based franchise business model, won't succeed in significantly affecting the general landscape.

There's a whole heap of factors to consider, obvious ones being infrastructure, established frequent flyer initiatives, market knowledge, etc, along with other non-tangible, but nonetheless very real factors such as 'fans' and positive experiences with the existing airlines and their wider brands. Fact is, passengers in Australia get a hell of a lot of value for their low fare - definitely more than in europe. Tiger doesn't appear to be factoring significant benefits into its offering, other than dropping the price. A bit.

On the question of fans, Tiger can win it's own, but this will take time it may not have. I've flown with Tiger a number of times in Asia - they're really quite unremarkable, as you'd expect from a lo-co airline. There's nothing whatsoever to set them apart from a customer's perspective. If anything, there's a key negative factor that sets them apart, in that their seats are noticably more cramped. Clarification will be needed here on whether they intend to use the same config in the Australian franchise. And franchise or not, the name Tiger and experiences of it will transfer, regardless of how seperate the regional companies actually are. If one is failing customers in a particular way, a level of impact will be felt by the others - although this also works the other way, but the average human being is notorious for being quicker to criticise than praise (just look at these forums!).

I just don't think that slightly lower fares are the be-all-and-end-all (because slightly lower is all they can really be, given current fare prices), especially in an already highly value-centric, low fare driven market. This has been proven in other areas all over the world, notably the retail sector, so why should the airline industry be any different? I'm open to other opinions - this is a good subject to discuss. My mind isn't made up entirely.

This is just my opinion. I'm not looking to fight anyone who has a sworn allegiance to a particular airline here. I've experiened low fares with both Jetstar and Virgin Blue time and time again (I only chose to travel by plane when the price is right!) and I reckon that their offereing, particularly Virgin Blue's, is strong enough and adaptable enough to withold being 'torn to shreds' by Tiger, as someone said earlier.

Rather than Tiger blowing the market apart, I think at best they'll find a niche and exist alongside the VB and J*, if they survive the squeeze that'll come at the end - indeed hail the end - of their 'honeymoon' period. They might well slow the expansion of the other airlines and cause a few boardroom headaches (the Australian domestic market can only get so big, anyway), but I think it's all going to be quite unremarkable.

Future growth for Australian airlines in general looks set to be by way of complementing domestic services by evolving the lo-co model and growing the business beyond the limited domestic market, like turning an eye to long haul as i now happening, albeit belatedly in the opinion of some folks. This is the crux - the Australian lo-co model of VB and J* is already a considerable evolution of the classic low cost model, and that's why I think that Tiger's bare bones, no frills low-cost business model (with absolutely no plans to look to long haul, according to Tony Davis very recently) is not going to make waves, if survive at all for any respectable period of time. It's not bringing enough to the party for its own long-term survival, and slightly lower fares on limited domestic services alone won't win it for them in the long run.

I know it's largely PR guff, but I nonetheless was interested to see that Tiger have been asking Australian people where they want to fly to. What did they expect to hear? I can't think that this survey returned any major revelations for them. Most of the feasible destinations not served by the current airlines aren't served for a reason. They're either slated for future services already, aren't worth serving financially (even from an uber-low cost perspective) or can't accomodate a A320 or 737. If anyone's got the upper-hand here, it's VB with their clever addition of smaller Embraer jets. These jets may by committed to other routes already, but they nonetheless contribute to a considerably more reactive and flexible arsenal for VB, with their very existence in the VB armoury being yet another example of the ever-evolving lo-co model downunder - a key fundamental of the classic lo-co model is the restriction to 1 type of aircraft.

Tiger's scope for innovation seems to be somewhat limited, but let's wait and see. It's just how Tiger intened to adapt the lo-co model that's the big issue here. Jetstar's priorities seem to be on show, as they press on with more A330s and a suite of fancy 787s. This may work in Tiger's favour. Then again, it may not. Of the two existing lo-co airlines, it's Jet* that will have their work most cut-out as they are behind VB with their current offering, in terms of destinations and frequency. However, the Qantas take-over bods are clearly switched on to the significance of the budget market, so expect more cash to be thrown at Jet*. Especially now the Tiger is lurking.

Lastly, nobody with an ounce of common sense can believe that Tiger can sustain a serious, comprehensive offering of the 'single digit fares' it's crowing about in the build-up to launch. It won't happen - that's a certainty. Their low fares will pale into the general low-fare backdrop of the current market.

The upshot of all of this...

Competitors will adapt and things will change a bit.

Fares may come down slightly.

And that will be it.

(I could've just written that last bit, couldn't I?)

[greenslopes]

A Few facts

Emirates are not offering $1 Million for 10 years service
There is no shortage of pilots(ask Heather Jeffrey @ VB)Yes we are facing a long term shortage of pilots but sorry folks it may take 5-10 years to really bite at the top end.

[freddyKrueger]

I am having trouble imaging Heather Jeffrey@VB's motivation with a live EBA in progress.

[QF DRIVE]

I can't see many pilots going across to Tiger when they are not sure how long they will stick around. Tiger has lost money over the last 2 years and bringing only 5 A320's into the Australian Market is not going to raise their profits if they are forced to offer single diget fares to combat QF and DJ.

I am sure that Mr Dixon and Godfrey have already sat down over tea and bikkies to discuss the Tiger invasion and what they can do together to lessen the impact. I can see if Tiger run the main trunk routes SYD / MEL and BNE then QF will move JQ across to the these routes to counter the Tiger.

I don't think the new 7 A320's that JQ wil get will be to expand the JQ network. They will go where ever Tiger goes.

[joepatroni]

Where did the 45 pilots who left VB last month go?

[Stubby]

Just to throw it out there! I heard recently that tiger may buy into or have some future interest in REX!? true or false who knows, has anyone heard the same?:oh:
Apparently REX sydney slots with a regional feeder might be a good option for a new carrier.:hmm:

[assymetric]

Where did the 45 pilots who left VB last month go?
hosser,
Where do you get your figures from.
Assy.

[sinala1]

Just to throw it out there! I heard recently that tiger may buy into or have some future interest in REX!?
Aren't Temasek Holdings part owners of REX? There's your link!

[mention1]

Greenslopes,

Virgin Blue have announched a purchase of 20 Embraer jets as well as 5 new B737. BG said " We have done modelling to get to 13 B777 " (Australian Aviation May 2007 p 22)

Tiger airways will soon join our domestic market with initially 5 A320's raising to up to 30 aircraft (The Australian Friday March 16)

Jetstar has announced an increase in capacity of 40%.

Regional Express (REX) has announced a purchase of 25 Saab 340 B+ aircraft.

Qantas still to take delivery of A380 aircraft and up to 111 x B787...

I think your expected time frame of 5 - 10 years a bit too long. The shortage is here!!!!

[harrogate]

Don't really see the point of the last post.

What you mentioned isn't really here and now. A lot of it is a good few years off - especially the fulfillment of 787 and A380 orders.

Tiger isn't even operating yet, but already you're talking about expansion to the full estimated fleet.

Qantas and possibly Rex will be retiring aircraft too.

The 5 to 10 years estimate is entirley realistic.

[blow.n.gasket]

Pig's Posterior!
It will end up just like every other Pilot Shortage in the past,
SARS or a war or economic crash will occur and airline management will be saved by the bell ,once again and they can then go back to what they are best at, sucking the last vestige of marrow from the aviation bone.
It's the next cycle that they will be well and trulely be screwed over with.
Because of the crap T&C's around now and into the future you are no longer seeing the never ending conga line supply of hopefull wannabe's coming through the CPL pipeline anymore.
So yeah in retrospect it probably will be 10 years or so off for the big pilot shortage, but I truely believe we will need to see one more economic cycle for it to really bite.