Atlantic L188 3 eng emergency at STN

[Global Pilot]

There was a full emergency at STN on Friday 23rd March. Timing was about 2100.... bet that kept ATC busy with two emergencies at the same time into two major London airports.
Anybody got news on what happened at STN. Just interested as it delayed our crew transport from the hotel :rolleyes:

Edited to relect YachtNo1s comment re the correct date... at least it wasn't Friday 13th:-)

[TOM_Pilot_286]

I heard it was something to do with an Atlantic Airlines L188 Electra coming in with 3 (yes 3!!) engines shut down!!
Not confirmed though, just what I heard.

TP

[Global Pilot]

"I heard it was something to do with an Atlantic Airlines L188 Electra coming in with 3 (yes 3!!) engines shut down!!
Not confirmed though, just what I heard."

Not sure about this as I was on the Alpha stands when the Electra taxied past and it had more than one engine running at the time...even my top of the range ear defenders are no match for that old beast :p
It was turned around pretty quickly and off again with Royal Mail on board. Would have thought after a full emergency that it would have had a few spanners look at it prior to despatch.

[Avman]

I would imagine that it was the number 3 shutdown, and not 3 engines shutdown.

[Global Pilot]

Without turning this thread into something bigger than it should be and diversing from original question but would a four engine aircraft with one engine shut down warrant a full emergency at STN?

[TOM_Pilot_286]

was told it was something to do with 'pitch-lock' on 3 engines, so they were shut down before the props wound themselves off, the RMP's were going nuts!!
After landing the CB was pulled and thus cured the problem in the short term, so the aircraft could get looked at while at STN, where the fault was found and sorted.

Again, this is only what I've heard.

TP

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

Think the aircraft can only be ferried on less than 4 engines, rather than dispatched on a commercial flight - so I imagine the problems must have bee sorted before it was sent out again.

[Airfreighter]

It is correct that the Atlantic Airlines L-188's engines were not rotating in sync and DID come in 3 engines DOWN!! The rudder was full over and yet somehow, the Electra still managed to land :D I've heard that after hearing the contents of the Tech log, other skippers where amazed that a) the crew were still alive and b) that the aircraft landed safely.
The aircraft was back in service for the royal mail operation the following night

[yachtno1]

Err Friday was the 23rd ..:rolleyes:

[Daysleeper]

Anyone got further info on this?
Did they actually have 3 engines pitch lock - or are we talking a SYNCH-PHASE fault so being back in K1 which results in some big RPM changes with power lever movement. .... ... and as for only 1 engine running if true its been done before on the electra by other companies. Anyhow sounds like another fairly typical night on the lobotomiser.

[rjay259]

Hi all,

the TOM had fluctuation in power on no.1 engine. from 80% down to 20% then back to 70% power. A/T disengage and held at timba for 15 min.

Flap 15 precautionary landing performed a heavyish landing but within limits and held for RFS on taxi J before going to the allocated stand as said 135.

259:ok:

[A and C]

Three engines pitch locked !!!!!!! If this is so the cockpit workload would have been very high !

That is the time when you need a flight engineer!!!!

[Ancient Observer]

With this type, it would be worth the historians amongst us getting out their history books. I seem to remember that it has had problems that sound like this in the past. There can't be many in the UK, are there?

[lordsummerisle]

Why need a flight engineer? Think they managed to land safely without recourse to a cup of tea!

[Pan Pan Splash]

Sounds like just another day at the office if you are an Atlantic Pilot..:p

[lordsummerisle]

What is wrong? The landing safely without a flight engineer? Tell me of a single incident with the Electra two crew that has been down to lack of a flight engineer?

[tapow]

Credit where it's due...this crew obviously done good!! As we would expect from whence they came.... one of the last producers of real AVIATORS in the industry.:D

[A and C]

Having not flown a two crew Electra I can't comment on the exact number of inccidents that happened because of a two crew policy, however with over 2000 hours on the type as both pilot and flight engineer I can assure you that the workload when things go wrong with the props is very high and approaching levels that could well overload the crew.

Unfortunatly the "happenings" that did not turn into problems because the flight engineer had them sorted before they became problems will never be recorded.

The makers built the aircraft for three crew and I for one (with my pilot hat on) think that flying the aircraft with two crew is at the very least errodes the margins of safety. It is for those who fly the aircraft short of one crew member to judge the safety issues, but the other two UK companys that opperated the type would have flown it two crew if the accountants had won the day, but the view in these companys was that the advantage of having a Flight Engineer was worth the cost.

[ironbutt57]

Cant recall...whats the available horsepower with a pitch-locked eng...1200?? and must be e-handled below what airspeed/resultant rpm to prevent 5th-10th stage bleeds from opening and roasting the whole eng??

[PaperTiger]

...and as for only 1 engine running if true its been done before on the electra by other companies.Indeed:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19900714-1&lang=en

[Daysleeper]

Every time something happens the cry goes up - Bring back the FE-the electra was "built" for 3 and so on--, As far as the electra goes the role is dead and has been for a long time, live with it and move on.

Meanwhile we are still trying to find out what actually happened - did it indeed shut down 3 of 4 engines or is this simply a case of miscommunication and in fact all that happened was the falange broke?

[JW411]

I know not a lot about the prop system on the Electra but what I do know is that my old company hired a lot of ex-Atlantic pilots from the DC-3 right up to the L-188.
Without exception, they were all bl**dy good aviators and all of them, without exception, went on to have good careers in aviation. Most of them are now TRI/TREs for major airlines.
If my arse was ever on fire, I would like to have a product of Coventry sitting beside me!

[Casper]

Ah, the Electra "bomber." Four (air) screws beat two blow jobs any day! And the plumber was worth his weight in gold, especially when the props did not behave.

[ABUKABOY]

Just had 5 years of nights with a 3rd pair of eyes behind, young and old, and its definitely the way to operate when the fan is flinging, or you're losing the fatigue-fight. Having said that, those who disagree have probably never had the opportunity to work with a maestro of the panel whose tech knowledge of the aircraft always puts your own to shame.
As for JW411, couldn't agree more. Coventry has produced some of the youngest mature masters of their art you will ever meet, and I've flown with many of them in their subsequent careers. Forget all the psychometric babbledegook; if a guy has Atlantique or Atlantic in his CV, you should hire him.......simple as that. He has probably already been to corners of the professional aviating envelope his interviewers have only ever read about.
I've no side to this, just speak as I find!

[airsupport]

Obviously not an ideal situation. :eek:

However, IF you are going to do it, the olde faithful Electra would be the aircraft to do it with.

We used to ferry them around on 3 engines all the time, and of course the military version (Orion) flies around all day on only 2.

[Flight Detent]

Hey, 'lordsummerisle' what silly, uninformed comments you make!!

As far as pitchlock is concerned, it depends at what blade angle the pitchlock occurs. The SHP can be quite high at p'lock, forcing the shutdown of the engine at quite high airspeed, because as we all know, with a p'locked prop, when the TAS decreases, the SHP increases, and will exceed max limits during the descent if not canned.
Also, the L188 does not have pitchlock reset capability, or an negative torque switch protection system to protect in the case of a prop control malfunction during air restart, so airstarts are rare.

Operating this airplane without a flight engineer is madness!

So there, I've said it!

Cheers, and good luck Atlantic pilots, and anybody else operating a two-crew L-188.

FD :confused: :uhoh: :mad: :\ :bored:

[gulfairs]

Pitch lock usually occurs because of an oil problem, but once pitch locked the fuel governor controls rpm with in power authority, at 14330 to 14530 rpm.
Standard prop governing is 13820 +-2.
So if power is reduced to below 13820 that is when the 5 and 12 stg bleed could pop and then Brown is in rotation unless they are are feathered.
I am glad I was not on it having only seen one PL in about 4000hrs, and it is scary.
A good job done by a couple of Chaps.

BBG

[flap15]

When the Electra was originaly designed it was intended to have just the two seats and no engineer. However at the time the FAA were looking at the new fangled jets such as the 707 and 727 and felt that these complex types should have an engineer station and passed rules to govern this. The L188 was included, so late in the design stage the third seat was added a few switches were added to give him somthing to do and conformity with regualstions was achiedved. If the L188 had been a true three crew aircraft it would not have been possible for Atlantic to do away with the third seat.

[gulfairs]

I am not too sure about that, but having operated for 6 yrs as an FE then progressed thru the other two seats, The FE's job is more than worth his salary in maintenance cost reduction, and enhanced safety when there is a tech problem in flight.
Most F/O's have little interest in the technicals of an aircraft except for what they have to know, their prime objective is the seniority list and how soon can they get a command!
Admittedly I fall into a minority category where I did 4 years as a ATC at a then International airport before moving along to the F/E seat and so on.
But a couple of years min.:= in the third seat sure brings one up to speed in technical knowledge of the equipment one is operating.
The few extra switches comment, is raw untreated sewage.
BBG.

[freightdoggy dog]

3 engines out on an Electra, no problem. I've seen the tech log, I am amazed they walked away from it. And yes its been done before, see the piccie
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f169/freightdoggydog/-15.jpg

[argon18]

Wouldn't say that 3 engines out is 'no problem', but the crew did an excellent job.

One engine e-handled in flight, 2 engines winding down on short final. Landed with only one engine producing full power.

[freightdoggy dog]

Don't forget the jammed rudder and over temp on the remaining engine ( no 4 )Argon! I think they were glad to have the dead heading ground engineer sitting in the middle that night than the usual flask of coffee!

[biggls]

OK as an ex AAT employee having operated D3 and DC6,. I can appreciate the achievement and say well done. It is the norm with the 6 to have one engine out but threes impressive. Well done by, a competent crew, just goes to show theirs is no substitute for a well trained pilot, better then some of the other training Establishments.

[Daysleeper]

As an ex electra skipper I have now heard through the grapevine most of what happened and just how much mortal peril the crew were in. How they recovered the aircraft I have no idea and I look forward to the opportunity to hear the whole story and buy the crew a beer at some time in the future. Boys you've done us proud just by surviving and I would hope that if the same had happened to me I would have survived - though I doubt it.


I would think there may be candidates for the "HUGH GORDON-BURGE MEMORIAL AWARD" here.

[woptb]

In the twelve years I spent on Electras with Channel only ever experienced single engine shutdowns & fortunately was not on board 285 at SNN when it suffered its 'mishap'.If they ended up having to try to deboost the rudder & fly the aircraft on one,the fact that a GE was sat in the middle seat was EXTREMELY fortuitous.I take my hat off to them!

[JDB1052]

There was also a case in Shannon in 1999 where the L188 touched down without the gear, bent three props before initiating a go-around and did a circuit to land on 1.5 engines. A P3C pilot I spoke with later felt this was an impossible feat but the guys pulled it off. The aircraft never flew again and was scrapped in Shannon a few years later.

http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/3973-0.pdf

[freightdoggy dog]

JDB,

The picture posted above is of 285f the morning of the gear up landing at SNN.
To the Atlantic Crew, welcome to the 1 engine club:ok:

I hear the para chutney in EDI has been showing you his pictures, as he was on board 285f when it went around on 1. He survived 285 and never flew again

[heathwick252]

Obviously a great bit of flying by these two guys :ok: but does anyone know what the cause of this near accident was?
I know they had to shut down No.2 engine because it was running eraticaly but why did No. 1 and 3 flame out?

[Chuck531]

I used to fly the L-188 with Hamilton Standard Props and never flew the L-188's with the other type of props in fact I cannot even remember what they were called. I wonder what kind of prop they have on their electra's?

Chuck

[lordsummerisle]

That particular aircraft in the incident did have Hamilton standar props, the only one on the fleet that has them.

[TOM_Pilot_286]

Ah, that'll be the great 'ZU' then!!

[EAL747]

Anyone who ever flew the Electra would agree that it was one of the finest airplanes to fly that was ever designed. I flew the model with the squaretip Aero-Products Propeller, but I suspect the round tip Ham Standard had all the same bells and whistles, 11 safety features on just the prop! It was a faster airplane across the ground (VMO 410) than the 707 or 727 (VMO 390) until the two "whirl mode" crashes. After those two (Braniff and Northwest), one of the fixes was to re-angle the engine mounts and slow the plane down. It was still immensly fun to fly. Flight Training routinely shut 3 engines down and cruised along on one, inboard or outboard (for demonstration purposes).

[the_aviator]

"Ah, that'll be the great 'ZU' then!!"

Yep, ex KLM. Series 2000 aircraft (can tell by two overwing exits).

The Ham Std props have better performance at low level flight, which is why the P3 Orion has them fitted. The Aeroproducts prop is thought to be better in the cruise at altitude, which suits the role of the Electra at Atlantic Airlines.

Also, back on topic, well done to the crew :D You can be my wingman anyday!

[Tonka Toy]

'Appy days' that your both still with us chaps!:ok:

[bomarc]

one of the best threads ever on pprune.

one L188 crashed in reno, nevada, USA shortly after takeoff about 22 years ago.

an access door had been left open, vibration distracted crew , and they crashed...it was not a freighter but a charter flight full of people. no one came out as I recall.

[Airbubba]

one L188 crashed in reno, nevada, USA shortly after takeoff about 22 years ago.

Here's the NTSB report:

http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR86-01.pdf

[Airbubba]

one L188 crashed in reno, nevada, USA shortly after takeoff about 22 years ago.

no one came out as I recall.

Actually, one guy survived.

Here's the NTSB report:

http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR86-01.pdf

[Ignition Override]

Another Electra flight, a Zantop Airlines "Logair" flight near Ogden, Utah, crashed after a Flight Engineer made a major mistake(s) during an electrical fault in IMC. Because the FAA, under the 'grandfather clause' never required many or most older Part 121 aircraft to have a standby horizon, the plane crashed.

Another Electra disaster was during a badly-coordinated instrument approach into downtown Kansas City after an all-night cargo flight from Florida. During the missed-approach, a crewmember stated that a bright tower was in the distance. The Captain overreacted, lost awareness of airspeed and/or bank angle on the control yoke and stalled/spun the plane into a sewage treatment plant.

Other than often very brief NTSB summaries, for interesting reading one can look at online P-3 articles from the US Navy's "Approach" magazine collection. There are interesting prop malfunctions etc and colorful results.

[stringbender]

Interesting read. Props are quite special on the Electra, Aero Products and Hamilton Standard. I've always approached these issues with great concern. Used to fly a Aero Products version and the mechanics would over fill the prop reservior. As you may be aware you must not overfill because you need expansion area, I've heard a suggestion that this prematurely wears out the prop seals? TPI International Airways had some interesting maintenance practices, personnel. I recall prop vibrations can lead to catostrophic results several weeks later if not attended to. I recall of two in flight incidents which turned a four engine aircraft into a one engine manual reversion in-flight emergency. When a prop comes off it generally goes through the fuselage just missing the flight control cables and then knocking out the other reduction gearbox/propeller assemblys. There was one incident in Curacao and the other? This was a fantastic machine to fly but the quality of maintenance / parts / made me very un-easy, and thats coming from someone with a maintenance background.

[gimmesumvalium]

Not the dreaded 3-engine approach nd landing!!!

[underread east]

Read it again. 1eng op 3u/s not the other way round. Theyre very lucky to still be with us.

[gimmesumvalium]

Re-read the thread, still not sure if its the dreaded 3-engine landing or not! can anyone enlihten me?

[captjns]

If they don't have more than one L-188, there was a healthy one departing EIDW last night at about 20:00 UTC. A truly beautiful sight to watch those huge paddles spinning in the reflection of the landing lights.

[hingey]

Re-read the thread, still not sure if its the dreaded 3-engine landing or not! can anyone enlihten me?

Three engines out, only one still turning at full power. Aircraft in question was the only one in Atlantic's fleet fitted with Hamilton Standard props.

h