night manning

[ifaxu]

announced at lacc that as of 1st of may all sectors will have four controllers rostered for night shifts as a result of safety research conducted and views expressed at safety days. What do we all think of this move. personally I applaud the move and am pleased that the embarrassing situation of closing portions of uk airspace due staff sickness will be fewer.

[Turn It Off]

I am Nats, but not a LACC bod, How many do u normally have per sector on nights? Is it 3?

TIO

[Standard Noise]

Prolly 3 more than you have doing procedural approaches on a night shift TIO.:}

[Gonzo]

Is that going to mean more flow and delays during the day?

[ifaxu]

gonzo- hopefully not. but if so then so be it. We need to be fully staffed both day and night as I am sure you do. dealing with the oceanic rush and domestic outbounds at 0600 after being up with minimal rest is no fun.
As for one person doing procedural approaches at night I have no idea what the implications of that are but if you feel it is detrimental to safety then air your concerns as controllers at lacc have been doing.

[Gonzo]

By no means was it a criticism, ifaxu. Just curious. :ok:

[ifaxu]

gonzo- no criticism taken. I respect the jobs that all Atco s do regardless of unit. I would imagine that yours is particularly demanding!

[London Mil]

:D Uberlingen.

[Lon More]

Uberlingen
If that's linked to it then it's taken a hell of a long time to filter through. Most places in Europe reconsidered night-staffing arrangements within days of the disaster.

[London Mil]

I don't know whether it is linked or not. I just think that Uberlinger should be something we constantly consider when we talk about allocation of human resource. In this circumstance, things appear to have gone in a positive direction.

[flower]

As for one person doing procedural approaches at night I have no idea what the implications of that are but if you feel it is detrimental to safety then air your concerns as controllers at lacc have been doing.

If the airport won't pay you simply don't get.

[BDiONU]

I don't know whether it is linked or not. I just think that Uberlinger should be something we constantly consider when we talk about allocation of human resource. In this circumstance, things appear to have gone in a positive direction.
Nothing to do with Ueberlingen, there were a number of recommendations which NATS implemented but staffing was not the issue. There were many other factors which are in the report (http://www.skyguide.ch/en/Dossiers/DossierUeberlingen/).

Could not find any announcement about additional night manning at LACC, nothing on the EBS either. :\

BD

[250 kts]

If this is the case then a very well done to the Swanwick reps.
This has been a major bone of contention on the unit for the last couple of years and although it will mean more nights for most, the "easier" regime on nights will be most welcome.
For you guys not on the unit, this will mean 2 hours on and 2 hours off for all of the sector groups and therefore no handling of, in some cases, 60 movements/hour by staff on minimum rest. :ok: :ok:

[DTY/LKS]

Hopefully this will come in although i have heard doubts as to whether it will actually come in. Heard the GM is still looking into it.
With 3 ATCO's on the combined sectors then you are on minimal rest periods for both nights & therefore could be stuck on radar from 4.30am-6.30am at the end of the 2nd night-shift with a busy eastbound flow of transatlantics. A recipe for disaster.

[tribekey]

Have often wondered how lone night working is still allowed.At abcd airport the night shift is a one person shift (i mean one person-no assistant). Movements vary over the months between 6 and 12 per night( a mixture of cargo and pax flights). They are usually spread out through the night but occasionally 2 or 3 happen together. Procedural control, obviously. Often feel dog tired at the end of the night.

As someone pointed out, if it's not legislated against then why would an airport authority pay for the extra staff?

[BEXIL160]

BD is being slightly economical here..there were a number of recommendations which NATS implemented

NATS response to the Uberlingen report was kept confidential to the NATS board only. Copies were, and still are, not available to the great unwashed, unless BD wants to furnish one. ( At the time I ASKED for a copy, and I have ASKED subsequently and been denied, twice... so much for "open and honest")

Also....staffing was not the issue. .Except that at the time of Uberlingen NATS was trying to reduce night manning at Swanwick to a single Tactical controller per sector (documented by the union and here on PPruNe). This was hastily dropped, but there's no getting away from the fact that NATS management at the time seriously desired to implement single sector manning.

Hopefully things are more "enlightened" now. (and yes, I think they are!)

Best rgds
BEX

[BDiONU]

BD is being slightly economical here..
NATS response to the Uberlingen report was kept confidential to the NATS board only. Copies were, and still are, not available to the great unwashed, unless BD wants to furnish one. ( At the time I ASKED for a copy, and I have ASKED subsequently and been denied, twice... so much for "open and honest")
How curious! I'm not being economical, although I didn't say I had seen the report I said I had seen the recommendations. I seen them because I was given the task of auditing the units for compliance, with evidence. The audit report I compiled went to the NATS safety group and thence on to SRG.
Also.....Except that at the time of Uberlingen NATS was trying to reduce night manning at Swanwick to a single Tactical controller per sector (documented by the union and here on PPruNe). This was hastily dropped, but there's no getting away from the fact that NATS management at the time seriously desired to implement single sector manning.
Yes it was a certain, now retired, long time manager at Swanwicks aim. I don't know why it was dropped but it was not because of a recommendation from that disaster. To the best of my recall there was one about ensuring staff were 'together' where possible i.e approach located within tower at quiet times (would need to reread the audit for exact phrasing but I'm not at work for a few days). But that was it.

BD

[Roger That]

NATS response to the Uberlingen report was kept confidential to the NATS board only Except that a number of operational people were involved in at least 2 of the 3 phases of the response. I'd have to check back for completeness but I certainly recall an operational ATCO from Swanwick, ScOACC and MACC being representated and there being some work locally to address the recommendations that followed.
there's no getting away from the fact that NATS management at the time seriously desired to implement single sector manning
Withdrawal of single sector staffing plans and talk of Ueberlingen gives the impression of these things being linked, and of any decision not to proceed being an unwise [or indeed unsafe] practice. I don't see this as a true reflection of events or indeed of the principles of single sector staffing. I believe it is true that single sector staffing has it's place (irrespective of time of day, day of week etc.) and holding Ueberlingen up like a safety card to block changes is somewhat disingenuous.

If there is clear opposition to changs such as this, be clear about why it's not safe. If it's compelling it should be relatively simple to prove the case :confused:

[BEXIL160]

NATS response to Uberlingen still remains confidential. I have tried TWICE to get a copy. After much research I have been told twice (and have been told in writing) that it will remain so. My last attempt was in December 2006. Curious? (to quote BD). Why so?

Withdrawal of single sector staffing plans and talk of Ueberlingen gives the impression of these things being linked,. because They were

Nothing disingenuous. Single sector manning isn't safe. (unless you consider a tired, lone controller at their lowest ebb, in the middle of the night, much safer than one accompanied by a qualified colleague able to monitor any errors.... no, i thought not....:rolleyes: )

BEX

[SM4 Pirate]

How many sectors around the world are single manned - at any time, day or night. What is ICAO or IFATCA policy?

I believe that there should not be 'single controllers on station' by policy of the above, but that is very different from single controllers doing different jobs. i.e. 6 controllers for 6 very different sectors with no co ratings/endorsements.

If it is so dangerous to work that way in the UK, what about the rest of Europe and the world? And what can be done about it?

[Pierre Argh]

Night Manning?... hmmm very non-PC , or maybe its policy to let the totty go home in time to get the tea, bath the kids etc at your unit? (Not Mil/ex-mil are you?)

[tribekey]

keep 'pc' mania out of this

[DTY/LKS]

Anybody know the outcome of todays meeting regarding 4 on nights at LACC?

[Lon More]

Not just a UK problem (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/11/tower.break/index.html)
But 18 minutes? Did he take his lunch and a book?


(I feel that this was posted earlier but couldn't find it. Apologies if so)

[5milesbaby]

Had confirmation today that there will be 4 on nights on all sectors at LACC as from May 1st.

[DTY/LKS]

Yeh, just heard that at work today
Thanks 5miles

[BDiONU]

Had confirmation today that there will be 4 on nights on all sectors at LACC as from May 1st.
4 rostered or 4 working? Just wondering where the additional staff will come from bearing in mind how difficult it is to man a DD&C 5 or 6 nights a year.

BD

[Arkady]

No more S53's. Easy.

[DTY/LKS]

BDIONU
I don`t see what a DD&C has to do with anything. I have done them before with 3 people on nights.
From what i understand is that by only having 3 on nights then you are relying on the sectors being bandboxed by 11pm (when the 1500-2300 people go home) and then not splitting till 5.30am when the 1st morning person comes in. By doing away with the 5.30am shift & having 4 on nights then it gives you the freedom to keep the sectors split late in the evening & also gives the capacity to split early in the morning which with the increasing traffic in the summer then it is needed some days depending on the eastbound track structure.

[5milesbaby]

There will be 4 people rostered for each night pairing every night, therefore 20 ATCO's per night on radar duties. If that means that all 4 have to work for part of the night shift at the same time then so be it (been there before), we'll always ensure we stay within hours. On South and West at the start of the shift during the summer this will be the norm, additionally West splits at the end of the shift around 530am. Its not impossible to roster the extra bodies, although I have heard that the north bank may have to re-jig again to get the night validations syncronized to fit all watches. Haven't we been down this road before????

There isn't any problem rostering for DD&C's, only 1 extra ATCO was needed for South and that was always done. The problems came when one of those rostered went sick, trying to find cover short notice is not easy. However the ATSA's struggle sometimes to get their extra bodies needed for a DD&C, but thats not affected by the ATCO change.

[BDiONU]

The LACC Management Team has listened carefully to concerns expressed by numerous members of staff regarding the issue of ATCO numbers at night. We have as a consequence decided to undertake a complete review which will consider all aspects of the situation. Accordingly a small working group has been formed to investigate the requirement, form conclusions and make any necessary recommendations to LACC Senior Management.

There is an ongoing period of consultation which includes Prospect and the Operational Management team. To allow this process sufficient time and without prejudice to the conclusion we have agreed a temporary increase in the number of ATCOs on a night duty to 4 in each LAG for the month of May. It is anticipated that the above process will be concluded in sufficient time for any permanent changes to be made in time for the June rosters.

[5milesbaby]

Got that letter today BDiONU, seems isn't as clear cut as first thought. What is it with NATS management that they can't even tell the troops what the plans are, just release snippits and when everyone thinks they know what the score is, the goal posts get moved. Also heard that its a fact that some watches CANNOT provide 4 on every night shift every cycle every month and for it to work shift changes will have to occur or we wait for more single sector valid controllers to gain a night pairing. PSS will also get affected but don't understand it so have no idea on the impact but believe it'll come down to providing less bodies in the ops room during the day.

And this is the progress NATS have made over the last 5 years - think we need some more destinations to fail just to prove the ops room is the 'weak link' in the whole operation and maybe they'll cut us loose so we can go be part of a real air traffic company that focuses on the MAIN aim of the business. Is that starting to sound like a rant????? :oh: :mad: :oh:

[BDiONU]

Got that letter today BDiONU, <snip> Also heard that its a fact that some watches CANNOT provide 4 on every night shift every cycle every month and for it to work shift changes will have to occur or we wait for more single sector valid controllers to gain a night pairing. PSS will also get affected but don't understand it so have no idea on the impact but believe it'll come down to providing less bodies in the ops room during the day.
Was the point I was trying to make earlier, where were these 'extra' controllers coming from. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

BD

[250 kts]

So far we've managed to stand out, as Barron wanted, as a major ANSP. We were the only one to regularly have closures of airspace at night due to inadequate night manning.

This will certainly help ro reduce the amount of airspace closures as well as providing some sensible contingency-15% of overloads took place with minimum manning, and therefore no ability to get the sector split or the ATCO relieved.