Shocking Atns Service Yesterday?

[CALCULATOR]

Yesterday at ORT INT between 16.00 and 19.00 (local) only one runway was in operation at ORT (WHY I ASK ? WHAT WAS THE PROBLEM)

Due to 1 runway in use (03L) for take off and departures two of our incomming smaller light twin turbine aircraft were Held at Okpit.
The king air 200 for 45 min and our BE19 for 40 min.What seemed totally frustrating is the schedule trafic were not even held or possibly were held but for a few minutes only.

The above delay is not acceptable on Clear VFR late afternoon EVEN WITH ONE runway.It transpires that we were late on our arrival slots.Thats called charter, often you are in the bush somewhere and you cant re book an arrival slot. Pax arrive late, thats charter.It seemed that because we were late its now time to penalize the the small boys and lets get the slot arrival sheet out,blow the dust off it and use it.(I would love to see ATNS hold a SAA flight from New york for 45 min-JA right!! .Most days its hardly referred to and we never have problems, its simply a guide to manage the amount of incomming trafic.
Please could somebody at Atns provide us with some insight into the delays yesterday or was it a case of short staffed because everybody was busy watching the cricket? :* and that was a waste of time as well!!!
It must be said that normally the Area and Radar pool offer a excellent service in general, perhaps somebody was having a bad day.!

[nel31369]

morning. runway belongs to acsa, as per notam they closed the runway for rubber removal, as per most saturdays. we are restricted to work 8nm between arrivals to allow departures from 03l. you are invited to come and view the tapes to see if any space had been wasted between arrivals. due to the amount of arrivals and 8nm rule to allow departures, vmc or imc, we had delays. it works the same as a shopping centre car park, if only 100 bays available only 100 cars can park there and it works on first come first service basis, if we could have 4 more runways i will land traffic on them, but since i had one only yesterday, well i am happy to report we did mighty fine thank you. :D. and for the cricket :\ .

[CALCULATOR]

Thanks nel31369, please see last words I added to my post.
First come first serve? Im sure we were there long before some other traffic in fact im happy to bet even before some jets were airborne from Durbs?
Ja might just come and see the tapes(beter than the cricket)
Anyway the guys normally do a awsome job we cant have it our way every day, just seemed if the delay was one of the longest weve had EVER.?Keep up the good work.

[CJ750]

:rolleyes:The previous reply can only be be an airline pilot.

Remember business aviation is allowed to use your airspace as well as you are. Also some of those passengers that earn a lot more than you ever hope to require our services to pick them up at Johannesburg International and take them to destinations that you and i can only dream of staying at. So brighten up and share the airspace. The tourists are here to provide everyone with employment not just airline pilots and ATC.

On the original thread general/business aviation is finding it increasingly difficult to use JIA with respect to Slots. And do not speak about Cape Town. You can never get them on the phone either. ATC have a difficult job but somehow we need to meet in the middle somewhere and somehow.

ANY ANSWERS...............:ugh::ugh:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Bit of ATNS teddy throwing at FAWB as well.:hmm:

[makeapullup]

funny thing this....why is it straight away ATNS and the controllers faults? the runway is ACSA'S and therefore they can do as they please with it.. If you consult the arrival and departure slots around those times they are full so it does not take a rocket scientist to work out that that just won't work.EVERYBODY got to do their fair share of holding yesterday, the 2 small aircraft mentioned were not victimized in any way! they could have had it much worse...
Maybe you should put pen to paper to ACSA if you are unhappy and stop blaming the messengers...AGAIN..we do the best we can..and if you don't have an arrival slot you have no foot to stand on...
Welcome to Africa!:ugh:

[Zenj]

Nel31369

Just curious , of late when you give us arrival into OKPIT why are we also given headings to steer after passing overhead OKPIT ?

Its something new thought it was just on a particular day, but saw it twice when I came in from Epsek

Zenj

[makeapullup]

Zenj - to answer for King ..

This week HGV was off the air, this affects the OKPIT Arr, as a result Okpit HDG 210/190 was used.
Could also be for 21 shorter routing if the sequencing tool says you are next in. ie OKPIT HDG 240 probably to intercept the LLZ.

Cheers

[Zenj]

Thanks for explanation, ATC in Joburg is the best in AFRICA !

[Q4NVS]

Thanks for explanation, ATC in Joburg (& SA) is the best in AFRICA !

Haha - They are the ONLY ATC's in Africa I guess...

The rest is "Self Service" - Rodgg :E

[B Sousa]

All this delay and in Class C Airspace, unbelieveable... I fly from Class B daily and the best I have seen with major carriers is about ten minutes with maybe 10 carriers in line.
As helicopter driver, I rarely get a delay of more than a minute while all the other stuff is going on and Im in a string of 5-10 helicopters.
The reason is we have pleanty of controllers and Tower operators who can control, and have the toys. They do some wonderful coordination. If I am correct things in Africa are very thinly staffed.
Based on this and other threads, I guess Im not telling anyone anything new. You need better Ground equipment, Radar and trained Controllers/ Tower Operators.
Correct??

[bamboosnake]

Surely the time to do the rubber cleanning and runway maint is off peak hours, like they do at all busy Int airports.....early hours of the morning.
Acsa may own the runway but ATC has to release it to them..tell them when the best time is to do the maint..probably cheaper than having jets spin all afternoon...if there was another airport to go to guess what would happen to your buissines.

[makeapullup]

Hey snake-in-the-grass.
Yoy'd think it was like that. However ACSA have the final say. (i'm sure all users and affected parties are consulted)
RWY 03R used to close on a Sat at about 2, now its 1630, soon it will have to be 1830. The thing is they need a certain amount of time to do their thing.
With all the other scheduled closures on the other days it only leaves Saturday night.
As this is notamed and has been ongoing for a while (and not being an expert) why do the charters do extra charters on a Saturday afternoon. Sure the client in the end dictates but then should also be made aware of the risk (arrival slot availabilty etc)
Oddly enough the calculator man kills his own story by admitting they missed their slot anyway (not that making it would've guarenteed no hold)
WB was also mentioned - surely this is a similar point, too many operator's (charter or training) for the airport. New operator sets up anyway knowing about the congestion and then complains about the service.
Oh well that's capitalism i guess.
Cheers

[nel31369]

thanks for the support bull.
the durban chaps did a spin or two at bebas and then one at stv on black saturday.:eek: . It is true that we are not fully staffed and had not been for more than a decade, and alas there seems to be more atc's leaving soon. So brace yourself for more holds, director sector opens only on days that we have enough staff and with the pending resignations we will not be enough atc's to run the sectors and that is a cold hard fact. i can honestly say that fajs atc's cook with gas:) .

[nugpot]

i can honestly say that fajs atc's cook with gas

I can honestly say that a pilot with that much ego will be flamed mercilessly here..... ;) , lucky you are an ATC.

BTW, the Shift key can be used to introduce capitals to your posts. Whole new horizons lie before you. Next time I will tell you about the Enter key for paragraphs. ;) :p

[CALCULATOR]

This reporter did a bit of digging around today and asked quite a few questions.
The main problem after having spoken to a few contacts at ORT tower are: ACSA demands that 03R be closed from 14.00Z and after this single runway ops are put in place ie all traffic on finals must be seperated by 8 miles so that the tower has a chance to launch departures.

The main issue is with now only one runway in use your capacity at ORT is halved BUT according to the arrival and departure slot sheets no provision is being made for single runway ops.The slot sheet is still allowing the same amount of arrivals and departures as they would for 2 runway ops.'Hello" any rocket scientist will tell you that with no reduction in arrival slots how can you manage the same traffic with only one piece of tar?

Looking at that time of day its not so much the departures that are the problem but definatley between 14.00z and 16.00z there are many arrivals hence the problem.
Stuaght Rudcliff from Atns(in charge of slots) should be reducing the amount of arrivals over this time and possibly departures.This would certainly mean less traffic inbound over that time and mean less win and spin around the TMA. Also all operators should be putting pressure on ACSA(Brian Thompson-ex Atc and one of the best in his time-to move the closure of the runway to much later at night when ORT can handle single runway ops.
Until something is done jointly by ATNS(slots) and ACSA we are going to have the same drama every Saturday between 14.00z and 16.00 z.
A final point well taken is that yes make sure you not only book but UPDATE your arrival slot before coming to ORT especially for us "charter boys." :ok:

[Goldfish Jack]

Calculator
Interesting comment about your charter and the pax being late etc etc affecting slots.
I can remember a few years ago that same problem arose in Europe with charters being late and Eurocontrol simply told the operators that a slot is just that - it is up to the charter operators to educate their pax and impress on them the need to arrive at the time they want the a/c. You only need to catch a few big fish and everyone learns. By impressing on your charterers the need to be on time it is going to make it a lot easier for you.
I remember the classic case of a SA businessman a few years ago who arrived late at Le Bourget to go to Luton and when the crew tried to get a new slot the earliest they could get was 6 hours down the line. Well said businessman threw his toys and demanded to go and they just ignored him. But now he has learnt his lesson and when he flies in Europe he is always on time.
So the slots system is a 2 way thing - you be on time and it works and ATC handles you, but you need to ensure your pax understand that. And once they learn how it works they will always be on time.

Oh and if you get a pm from Springbok 702 about questions be careful what u say - it is Radio702 in disguise - you have been warned!

[126,7]

Maybe the folks at ATNS should realise that flowcontrol is not a precise science. There are so many factors which might affect the punctuality of a flight. Lets just start with the baggage handler.....rough night last night and he is surely not in a hurry to expedite carrying a massive suitcase while suffering from that monster hangover. Just have a chat with anybody at CFMU in Brussels.

Can't believe Calculator's report on the flowguy's procedures at JNB. How can they not reduce capacity when there is only one runway? Maybe somebody should chat to this guy or ATNS should change the way they do business.

NEL31369
Maybe you worked your 8nm between arrivals, but who is the guy that took over from you. Did he work to the same standard or was he from team 5? IE the sick and tha lame. And I'm sure that ACSA will be buying snow clearing equipment way before anybody from the public can view any tapes. Ever!

[springbok702]

"Oh and if you get a pm from Springbok 702 about questions be careful what u say - it is Radio702 in disguise - you have been warned!"

Nothing in disguise, you have nothing to worry about unless you have something to hide.

Your colleagues were all very helpful in doing the story on the Atc's who are all leaving to greener pastures.

[flying paddy]

Hi

We flew into FAJS last Friday on a medivac in our little king air 200 from Botswana. I would like to thank all the controllers (particularly Approach) for accommodating us to the highest degree, as an ex British Pilot working in deepest darkest Africa it was very refreshing to be served in such a professional manner, and would like to extend my deepest gratitude to all involved.

Just goes to show that the system does work sometimes.
:D :D :D

[bitchflying11]

Shame just another FEDAIR pilot moaning!!!

I feel for you tho, cause you guys are not getting paid for what you do. And any delays, well just a waste of time!!

I have no idea why you guys do not strike!!! I think you al have no
b:mad: lls

Happy flying, and enjoy getting paid peanuts!! You pay peanuts, and you get monkeys up front

[Pux]

Happy flying, and enjoy getting paid peanuts!! You pay peanuts, and you get monkeys up front


eish!! thats a bit harsh:} they gonna hunt you down:ouch:

[Avi8tor]

The problems on saturday started way before the closure of 3R. Due to wx in the morning aircraft were still backed up at 1030Z. The queue for start was getting longer not shorter!!! It was a clear skys day with both runways in use!!!

I know that the 'purple couch' team have implimented some silly station rules. But its time that ATNS had a long hard look at how and what it does.

I know the boys and girls behind the screens are going the best they can and very professionally too.

But they need all the support from the rest of them at ATNS. Also a change in attitude would help. Asked a tower controller why they dont use the left more for landing, answer was a peach:

"we are too busy crossing traffic from the right" :ugh:

[RadarMaggot]

Avi8tor

"we are too busy crossing traffic from the right"

What do you suggest then - landing 03L and departing 03R?? :zzz:

There is a very fine line between using 03R for landing as well as 03L...
The delay times for departing aircraft increase a few minutes every time someone lands on 03L and this has a snowball effect when if there is a long queue waiting for start.

Landing on 03R and waiting to cross 03L (between departing aircraft only!) has the least overall delaying effect.

"It was a clear skys day with both runways in use!!! "

Why do all (sorry - some people actually think before making an assumption) pilots think that there will be no delays when Smuts is VMC?? Ever heard of the "Bigger Picture"? And before you go on and rant about ATC's always saying the "Bigger Picture"... well it's because we DO have a bigger picture on our screens.:} :}

Have to go land some more traffic on the right :suspect:

[asianeagle]

Just my 2 cents worth, Heathrow often lands on both runways with all departures. Including crossing traffic to Terminal 4 on 27L / 09R. That is a busy airport, I am not so sure ORT is in the same league. :E

[Avi8tor]

I wish the 'big picture' excuse would stop being used. As i have been flying out of ORT way before it was ORT, i kinda know that when i can see from the cockpit that nothing is taxying for 3L that it can be used for landing.

Just a thought, if u landed more guys on the left, there would be LESS to cross from the right. Use it, dont use it.

No screen needed when mark one eyeball is available. Also clever thing this handy TCAS/ACAS.

Please, this is NOT aimed at the guys behind the screens downstairs, I KNOW they are way short staffed and need more sectors.

But the system has to punish the tar more often if u wanna push more traffic. This requires the tower/ground controllers to get with the program. 3miles is NOT a late landing clearance!!!

[nugpot]

This requires the tower/ground controllers to get with the program.

Amen brother! :ok:

[RadarMaggot]

"Also clever thing this handy TCAS/ACAS"

Then why do some pilots still do go-arounds on short final because of helicopter traffic (which TWR TOLD them about AND they acknowledged it)? Maybe forgot to switch to TA instead of keeping it on RA?

"This requires the tower/ground controllers to get with the program. 3miles is NOT a late landing clearance!!!"

IT is in ATNS!! If you want to punish the tar - it can be done and has been done in years gone by. Unfortunately we cannot go back to the good 'ol days without getting in trouble with the Boss.

It would also help getting things changed on our side if ACSA finished all the Rapid Exit Taxiways (AND we may actually use them!!), without which our hands are tied...

"I wish the 'big picture' excuse would stop being used"

Then stop yapping about landing on 03L...:ugh:

[nugpot]

Hmm, now who's flying the aircraft?

Then why do some pilots still do go-arounds on short final because of helicopter traffic (which TWR TOLD them about AND they acknowledged it)?

From the authorities (FAA in this case, AC120-55B):
ATC may not know when TCAS issues RAs. It is possible for ATC to unknowingly issue instructions that are contrary to the TCAS RA indications. Safe vertical separation may be lost during TCAS coordination when one aircraft maneuvers opposite the vertical direction indicated by TCAS and the other aircraft maneuvers as indicated by TCAS. As a result, both aircraft may experience excessive altitude excursions in “vertical chase” scenarios due to the aircraft maneuvering in the same vertical direction. Accordingly, during an RA, do not maneuver contrary to the RA based solely upon ATC instructions.

Unfortunately, the mere fact that ATC warned us about traffic does not remove the responsibility to act on every RA. An acknowledged aircraft can kill you just as dead as an unacknowledged one. A midair will spoil my day much worse than the ATC's day.

Maybe forgot to switch to TA instead of keeping it on RA?

Almost all a/c installations automatically inhibit RA's below 1000' AGL. In any case, the choppers usually don't have mode S transponders, so you cannot get an RA, only a TA.

Finally, a go-around is a very expensive exercise and causes a lot of paperwork. It won't be done without good reason, usually good safety reasons.

[fluffyfan]

Then why do some pilots still do go-arounds on short final because of helicopter traffic (which TWR TOLD them about AND they acknowledged it)? Maybe forgot to switch to TA instead of keeping it on RA?


On the 737-800 RA's are inhibited below 1000ft, and as Nugpt says Almost all a/c installations automatically inhibit RA's below 1000' AGL

Will have to take his word on this only know the 800 myself.

However, no pilot will ever select TA only due to an ATC advisory message about traffic, and we are trained that when you get a RA, you comply imediatley, no negotiation, no ummm should we......if you get a RA you do what the aircraft says without question, if the crew of the Russian Airline over Europe had complied with the TCAS instead of what the ATC told him 100 something people would be alive today

[Pux]

Almost all a/c installations automatically inhibit RA's below 1000' AGL. In any case, the choppers usually don't have mode S transponders, so you cannot get an RA, only a TA.



the express aircraft in question that day claimed she had a full RA and HAD to go around. while the heilcoptor pilot said, and the radar picture showed clearly that the helicopter passed well behind the F28 on finals for RWY03R!!!!!!!!!!!!and the F28 was below 1000'!!!!!:ugh: :ugh:

as for tower/ground controllers getting with the program??? come sit in for a few sessions and then you'll SEE the bigger picture we talk about! in between pilots nagging for numbers in a que, we deal with restrictions from radar, area(route seps wrt times) and believe it or not even apron that messes up parking bays.not to even to speak about weather, and dont give me that crap about londen weather!!:* :mad: :mad:

3miles is NOT a late landing clearance!!! then don't nag, "im short finals", if you are within 3miles (as if i would forget about you???) and have not received a landing clearance yet due to the fact that the preceding landing aircraft has not yet vacated!!!:ugh: :ugh:

[nugpot]

as for tower/ground controllers getting with the program??? come sit in for a few sessions and then you'll SEE the bigger picture we talk about!

It would help a lot if communications with controllers were taken seriously. After a particularly frustrating encounter with TWR, I called the controller involved. She refused to take my call but promised (via the assistant) to call me back. Obviously after 2 weeks I am still waiting. Three days later I ended up next to your COO (our previous CEO) on an SAA flight to CPT and dicussed the whole issue with her. Although I am not holding my breath, I hope that some action is taken.

The fact is that ATNS is a service provider to airlines and aviation companies. The charges are exorbitant and as customers we have the right and the obligation to complain when the service is not up to scratch. With departure and arrival slots becoming the be-all and end-all (and a convenient excuse for delays), a 4 minute delay at the hold because of dicey planning in TWR becomes a problem for the captain who has a responsibility to his pax and company to be on time and save fuel.

I have found that ATNS JNB has some world class controllers. They are compentent, friendly and awesome under pressure. They are also mostly on Radar and sometimes on Area. Then there are the others.....

In cockpits you find the same spread, so ATNS is not alone here. What I find galling is that the ATC's are defending their collegues blindly while I sincerely hope that they realise there are some of them that are clearly not up to scratch.

I am now done with my JNB stint and will be out of your airspace for (hopefully) a long, long time. I'm going back to where the controllers know my voice and I know theirs. Complaints are listened to without agressive retaliation and sorted out over a beer.

Thanks ATNS ORTIA. Some days I was overawed at the excellence displayed by controllers, other days I wondered how the idiot could find the transmit pedal without assistance. I know about your staff and Ops problems.

Good luck and thanks for not killing me. ;)

[RadarMaggot]

nugpot and fluffyfan

VMC by day and TWR ATC can see you. Both aircraft were told about each other and I guarantee that the chopper had the aircraft on final in sight!!

Now don't come barging in about the Russian in Europe - first of all it happened at night at cruising altitude!! (ref VMC by DAY and in VICINITY of Aerodrome).

Quote from nugpot

"Almost all a/c installations automatically inhibit RA's below 1000' AGL. In any case, the choppers usually don't have mode S transponders, so you cannot get an RA, only a TA."

You only need mode C information for the RA to be activated - not mode S. You will however get a TA only with mode A.

Oh, and if you havn't noticed yet - JS ATC's don't give instructions if a pilot reports and RA climb/descend.

[nugpot]

You only need mode C information for the RA to be activated - not mode S.

I apologise, you are quite correct. Both need mode S for coordinated RA's.:ouch:

[RadarMaggot]

Glad to be of service to you nugpot.

We'll probably speak again sooner than you think...

Cheers and enjoy!:ok:

[Avi8tor]

I think we are getting somewhere at last!!

IT is in ATNS!! If you want to punish the tar - it can be done and has been done in years gone by. Unfortunately we cannot go back to the good 'ol days without getting in trouble with the Boss.


Now we are acknowledging there is a problem, not running around denying it. Lets accept that ATNS has a problem and it leads to sh:mad:t service. I don't care who is to blame, lets just find out WHAT is wrong, not who, and fix it.

[OverheadOrOverheard]

Hey Nugpot

You still have to leave the FIR so we got one more chance.:eek: Bon Voyage.

Triple O

[Pux]

It would help a lot if communications with controllers were taken seriously. After a particularly frustrating encounter with TWR, I called the controller involved. She refused to take my call but promised (via the assistant) to call me back. Obviously after 2 weeks I am still waiting.

thats very unfortunate that she (who ever this in question might be) didn't call u back. understandable if she was busy and could not take your call, but the person should have called you back. (so we are not blindly defending collueges) if you can remember the person and still want to talk please call.

i wish you could elaberate on the "others" as you refer to them. feel free to send me a private message but i would like to know more. i am though glad that you acknowledge the fact that the spread are on both sides of the fence. we get equally frustrated with some pilots and are sometimes reminded it might be a student in the cockpit, please bear in mind that we also have students sometimes. They are sometimes nervous and unsure of themselfves, as are all students across the board. so i dont know if these are the "others" you refer to, please correct me if im wrong:ok:

when we wrong we admit it, and i speak hopefully for many collueges i have come to know as distighuished ladies and guys. but we will defend our ground when silly statements are made while we do our utmost best to make the system work within the set restrictions.

i wish you well on your future travels and may you find yourself longing for the friendly professional service of ORTIA ATC's.:ok:

God speed to you.

[Avi8tor]

It would also help getting things changed on our side if ACSA finished all the Rapid Exit Taxiways (AND we may actually use them!!), without which our hands are tied...
......so how did u do it in the old days?

I wish the 'big picture' excuse would stop being used"

Then stop yapping about landing on 03L...

Talk about the big picture!!! The reason we 'yap' about the left is cause it means its 5 less miles everybody has to fly!!! If in a sequence of 10 aircraft every 3rd one landed on the left, aircraft 3 to 5 would save 5 miles each, 6to 8 would save 10 miles and 9 and 10 would save 15 miles!!!

TOTAL saving to industry = 75 miles .

15 miles is not a huge saving from LHR but from PTG its 10% of the trip.

P.S. heard of global warming?

[anatc2]

so how did u do it in the old days?

quicker pilots?

The reason we 'yap' about the left

you yap more when you're the guy waiting to depart!

Stop trying to tell ATC's how to do there job. Strap in, shut up and do your job!
(remember thats the one where you turn all those knobs and order tea):{

bye:ok:

[Avi8tor]

That very large tea room I sit in all day burns less on the ground that it does tooling around at 25 miles on finals. Its that global warming thing again.

I am firm believer in not telling others how to do there jobs, but get the feeling that u guys are too busy 'with the big picture' than punishing tar. I have been doing 50 take off and landings a month, for the last decade.

Again, this is NOT the blame game, if u boys and girls need more eyes in the glass cage on the pole, then employ them!!!

Agreed that ORTIA has some particular challanges due to its good old SAR&H railway station history. But time has come to make it work!!!

I acknowledge that your remarks are in good spirt, but the sentiment is wrong, my airline pays ur salary, i have every right to bitch about the service your company provides or give me the freq of the other service provider.

This is NOT an US vs YOU GUYS thing. Lets make this work, u move more metal, u make more loot, we make more money, we get more loot. Lets look for the win/win here.

[4HolerPoler]

Great post Avi8tor :ok:

4HP

[asianeagle]

an old bold aviator once said, "are we up here cos you guys are down there, or are you down there cos we are up here?????"

remarks like the ones anatc2 made make me wonder whom is where cos of whom.

you werent perhaps trained by the second best ATC`s in world were you, namely CPT. :8 :E

[nugpot]

Also please remember that unless you are an aircraft owner, which pays the bills, then you are in fact not the ATC customer!!! You are merely the employee of the customer much as the ATC is the employee of the service provider!!!
Please don't stop throwing your stones...just throw them in the right direction is all I ask??

When I get incompetent service while placing an order for the company I work for, I am quite entitled to complain.

But you are right. I can see that the attempt to solve this in an informal manner is a waste of time. From now on crappy ATC service will be followed by a phonecall to Boni Dibate. There are some advantages to knowing her from her SAX days.

[anatc2]

Nugpot....and you are obviously confident that Ms BD will actually do something?...i don't think she even knows where the centre is....good luck though..

[BlueSkye]

Reading this whole sorry saga of a post just cements the decision to abandon the good ship ATNS. Not just from the quality of people and service that gets churned out but also the incessant whinging that takes place on a daily basis. Pilots complain about crappy service and ATCs complain about crappy pilots. Round and round we go with no end in sight to this perpetual orgy of moaning.

I have made my views clear in the past on how to solve the problem from ATC side. As for the users of the service one of two choices:
1. Shut up and suck it up.
2. Do something constructive AND effective. e.g. Create an escrow fund into which ATNS fees are deposited and only to be paid out when a commitment to better service can be secured. It works when you do it correctly/legally.

All said and done one has to keep in mind that traffic is ever increasing and the good ol' days of Dct no speed (;) ) Rwy03L is maybe gone forever.

We had joy, we had fun, we had seasons in the sun.....

[BlueSkye]

Isn't crappy service a bit like a hot woman? It's in the eye of the behold-her. A call to Bonni will serve absolutely no purpose. Everything after "Good evening" will be passing FL330 with a good rate of climb.

[nugpot]

the kind of impotent friends

Who are you calling impotent? ;)

[kismed]

ha ha ha

Think u should remove this before every body realize that u dont have a clue.

[Trawler]

ATNS = All Tariffs NO Service.
Complaining to Bonni Dibate, GOOD LUCK!!!!

For the ATC's if you give me a slot time, is that the landing time in JNB, my time over the entry beacon or time for JSV in event of radio failure??What does the following clearance mean "route ESTED to HOLD , NO delay expected!!

Please help me out of my misery.

[I.R.PIRATE]

Plus real corporate flights are not dictated take off times to. You take off when it suits the boss. Not ATNS.

[Malagant]

AMEN to that..the Boss doesn`t understands slots..time is money..and switch to TA..only supposed to do that when you lose a donkey..?