PPL Revalidation (5-10 years out)

[gfunc]

Hi Folks,

First off let me say a hello to the community as I am a "long time listener first time caller". Secondly, let me apologize in advance if this has already been dealt with in other posts.

I got my good old (pre JAA) UK PPL back in 1998 and I've barely flow since (I've been a career student for most of the last decade), the last flight in my logbook was in 1999. After years an years of wanting to do so and some flirtation with gliding, I've got the opportunity to commit aviation once again.

Does anybody have any sense of what hoops I might be expected to jump through to get my PPL revalidated?

I'm not fully up on the requirements (I hear my old PPL is better than the JAA PPL) and the relevent paragraph in LASORS is rather abrupt and unhelpful. Does anyone around here have any similar experiences or useful links?

I'm living in the US, but I managed to come across a tremedously helpful ex-pat instructor nearby who believes I can just shoot down to florida, get my CAA medical (there's a few approved docs around) and do a few hours at a CAA approved flight school (e.g. Ormond or Naples). My plan is to get my UK ticket revalidated then pop to my local FSDO and get a restricted FAA one issued on the basis of that.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Cheers,

Gareth.

[Whopity]

Getting your UK licence back is quite simple, obtain a medical as you suggest. Pass a Skill Test with a JAA examiner, plenty in Florida, this may require a bit of dual training as you suggest, thats it then send the paperwork to Gatwick for reissue of your SEP aircraft rating (assuming it has expired by more than 5 years.)

Popping into the FISDO is not quite that simple as you now have to get the CAA to verify your UK licence before the FAA will issue you with a Restricted Pilot Certificate
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1160.PDF

[IO540]

On the assumption that one has been flying lots in the meantime (say, under FAA) how long does the JAA PPL have to be expired for before one has to re-sit the 7 exams? Plus the exam for the IMC Rating?

[Whopity]

Under the current JAA rules you do not have to resit the PPL exams ever again you only have to pass the Skill test. The IMC written exam has to be retaken if the IMC rating has expired by 10 years or more.

[IO540]

Thank you Whopity. It then appears that the worst case penalty for the JAA PPL expiry is the skills test.

What is the minimal route for preventing having to reset the IMCR test? For a current pilot, it's easy enough to take the IMCR skills test every 2 years and combine that with the PPL skills test. On that basis, can one keep going, or does one have to send off the payment for the JAA PPL every 5 years too, and get a CAA medical in order to keep the JAA PPL valid in order to keep the IMCR from expiring?

Still, having to reset the IMCR skills test after 10 years is not a huge burden, in return for having saved 2x the JAA PPL fee and 5x the CAA medical fee.

[BEagle]

The renewal test is actually the SEP Class Rating renewal LST, not the Initial PPL Skill Test. You never need to repeat that once you've passed it once.

The SEP revalidation LPC/renewal LST can indeed also be combined with a IMC Rating revalidation or renewal test if you wish. In fact combining a IMC Rating revalidation with a SEP Class Rating revalidation is quite a cost-effective solution for many folk - and you don't then need to fly the VFR navigation element of the SEP Class Rating LPC! Yes, I'm certain of that because I asked the CFE to rule on it.

The IMC Rating (in the absence of IMC Rating privileges conferred by other licences or ratings) is always revalidated by test. Up to 5 years from expiry, just the IMC revalidation flight test will suffice for renewal. 5-10 years and it is discretionary instruction plus the full IMC Initial Flight Test, more than 10 years and you'll need to pass the exam as well.

BUT - if you hold a valid UK national CPL or ATPL, you have automatic non-expiring IMC Rating privileges (not so with a JAR-FCL licence :rolleyes: ). So, even if you hadn't seen a cloud since you passed your UK CPL, if that licence is still valid then so are your IMC Rating privileges......:hmm:

In theory, you could wait as long as you like before having an expired JAR-FCL licence re-issued to avoid that ridiculous re-issue fee. You merely need to have a non-expired Type or Class Rating and a JAA medical valid for the date of re-issue. So, in the most extreme case, take discretionary instruction, pass the SEP renewal LST and an oral exam with the Examiner, pass the IMC Initial Flight Test and the IMC Rating exam. Send it off to the CAA with the appropriate fee, and that's it.

[IO540]

Thank you for that, Beagle - very clear.

I do wonder if there is a way into the JAA PPL + UK IMCR route for a holder of an ICAO CPL or ATPL...

There used to be a route into the JAA Class 1 medical system, for an ICAO Class 1 holder with an ICAO CPL/ATPL, whereby you got in using the renewal (not initial) limits, but the CAA quietly pulled this last December, coincidentally ?? weeks after it got some publicity on pprune.

[Whopity]

What about the old UK lifetime brown card?No different from the Credit Card style licence, the white paper licence or the JAA licence. Aircraft rating renewal criteria are the same; the brown card does not expire as a licence so they can only charge you for the rating even though you will get a new paper licence.

An ICAO IR valid in the past 5 years exempts you from the IMC ground exam.

[BEagle]

They, Whopity, they???

:p

[IO540]

An ICAO IR valid in the past 5 years exempts you from the IMC ground exam

Is this meaning "valid" as in "valid" or as in "valid only if you had an IPC"?

The CAA reportedly gives you the IMCR based on an FAA IR only if you had an IPC in the last 2 years.

[Wessex Boy]

Gareth,
I would recommend a thorough revision of Air Law as well, JAA has changed 1 or 2 things, as has 911, so a brush up would probably help.
It's just sooo much fun as well:hmm:

[Displcd Brit]

I'm living in the US, but I managed to come across a tremedously helpful ex-pat instructor nearby who believes I can just shoot down to florida, get my CAA medical (there's a few approved docs around) and do a few hours at a CAA approved flight school (e.g. Ormond or Naples). My plan is to get my UK ticket revalidated then pop to my local FSDO and get a restricted FAA one issued on the basis of that.

If you aim simply to get an FAA certificate on the basis of your lifetime UK licence (though if one of the tan coloured ones you'll need to get the CAA to re-issue it so the number on it is valid) then you do not need to get your UK licence revalidated first.

When the FAA speak of the need for the underlying foreign licence to be current and valid they mean not surrendered, suspended, revoked, or expired instead of what we might think current means.

With your FAA certificate on the basis of your CAA license there is no need to satisfy the experience requirements of your UK licence as long as that license is not surrendered, suspended, revoked, or expired (which includes changes in the licence numbering scheme). You will, of course, need a valid FAA Flight Review (formally known as a BFR) to exercise the privileges of your FAA certificate.

By the way, to get your FAA certificate on the basis of your UK license an FAA medical is sufficient.

This is explained in Chapter 29 of FAA Publication 8700.1 which is available at
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/

A question: would it be legal to fly in the UK using an FAA certificate issued on the basis of a UK PPL when that UK PPL was not current (in the sense that we understand the term)?

[gfunc]

Hello everyone and thanks for the rapid replies.

Displcd Brit, the route you speak of sounds the most intruiging (not to mention cheapest!) - Do you happen to know of the top of your head how I get my lovely old brown book swapped for a new one?

I'll go in and bother my local FAA office (luckily 5 miles from my house!) and see what they have to say.

Wessex boy, how did you know I am a Air Law addict? :ok:

I'll update you all (or y'all in the local dialect) as to the results.

Cheers,

Gareth.

[agapilot]

SoCal is correct, I have been doing BFR's in Germany for folks who have the FAA stand alone license and the FAAcert based on their german license. I always have to make sure that the folks have their FAA medicals, and such as well as their german medicals and currency. Only those with stand alone FAA cedrts do not have to have their German certs current to get a FAA BFR and such. Its really not a big deal to keep the faa certs up to date. But each time I look into the reqirements of JAA and the germans license requiements always seem glad I haven't gotten mine! lol
keep the shiny side up!

[IO540]

I always have to make sure that the folks have their FAA medicals

There are different views on this. Most people think that FAA piggyback licenses don't need the FAA medical. Some think that the FAA medical is required only if you also have the FAA IR.

The FAA FAQ (latest version is c. 2004; not on their website any more but I have a copy) doesn't deal with this old question.

Any supporting references for the above?

[englishal]

The CAA reportedly gives you the IMCR based on an FAA IR only if you had an IPC in the last 2 years.
They will exempt you from the written exams if you have passed an ICAO IR within 5 years (or other IR test, like IPC). They will also exempt you from the flight test if you have passed either the ICAO IR flight test or an FAA IPC (and probably some other foreign equivalents) within the last two years. The date of the IMC rating will run for 24 months from the date of the IPC or checkride.

[Displcd Brit]

I think you will find that this is incorrect - regardless of how you interpret Ch 29.

From Chapter 29:

The term “current” in existing §61.75(a) and
(b) as it relates to a foreign-pilot license is really
intended to mean that the applicant’s foreign-pilot
license and medical license have not been surrendered,
suspended, revoked, or expired, and that AFS-760 has
issued the applicant a Verification of Authenticity
letter as a result.

It also seems clear given the discussion of restrictions and limitations in Chapter 29 that these are intended to cover such things as no night flying (if that's a restriction on the underlying licence), or being restricted to certain makes and models of aircraft (in the case of our antipodean friends), etc.

When I went through this process, I checked this with a local flight school, a Designated Examiner and with the local FSDO.

[Displcd Brit]

Some more information extracted from the FAA Part 61 FAQ:

Ref. § 61.75(e)(3), A person may still exercise the privileges of his U.S. § 61.75 pilot certificate provided the person has met U.S. Part 61 currency and recency of experience requirements. The exercising of a person’s U.S. § 61.75 pilot certificate is not contingent on whether a person has completed his U.K. proficiency check. Only when a person’s foreign pilot license has been “surrendered, suspended, revoked, or expired” does it effect the privileges of the person’s U.S. § 61.75 pilot certificate.

Ref. § 61.75(e)(3), Even if a person’s foreign pilot license bears a lapsed proficiency check it would not effect the operating privileges of that person’s U.S. § 61.75 pilot certificate.

Section 61.75(e)(3) states, “Is subject to the limitations and restrictions on the person's U.S. certificate and foreign pilot license when exercising the privileges of that U.S. pilot certificate in an aircraft of U.S. registry operating within or outside the United States.” The FAA intends this rule to apply when a person’s foreign pilot license has an operating restriction, limitation, or privilege. Examples of operating restrictions or limitations on a pilot certificate/license include a night flying limitation, aircraft rating limitation, instrument rating, operating privilege, etc.

[Displcd Brit]

The three points come from the FAA's own Part 61 FAQ (all 19 pages of it).

The author of the FAQ was
John D. Lynch, Certification Branch, AFS 840, Washington, DC
[email protected]
(202) 267-3844

The frontispiece to the FAQ contains the following from the Director, Flight Standards Service, FAA:

"There is a disclaimer statement at the beginning of each of these websites that state the answers are not legal interpretations. Only the FAA's Office of Chief Counsel and Regional Chief Counsel provide legal interpretations. However, it is important that our personnel be aware of these websites. I want it understood that the answers and information provided on these websites are official FAA Flight Standards policy about Part 61, Part 14, and Part 142."

Unfortunately, none of the FAQs referred to in the above are now publicly available, presumably because the FAA recognized that the FAQs were in a legal middle ground, not legal interpretations but nonetheless official FAA Flight Standards policy.

The copy I have is dated June 2004, and I think it unlikely that FAA interpretation of 61.75 could have changed so much since then. Some evidence that it hasn't is provided by the proposed changes to 61.75.

If you Google Part 61 FAQ you'll be able to find a downloadable copy somewhere out there.

[IO540]

I have a copy of the 2004 FAQ - email me if you want a copy.

[Whopity]

In order to be valid a UK or JAA licence must have:

The Licence in date
The Medical in Date
An aircraft rating in date with the appropriate certificate.
Without these, the privileges of the licence cannot be exercised in which case any licence that is dependent on the validity of you UK licence is also invalid. It really doesn't matter what FARs say, if the UK ANO under which it is issued says its not valid.

[Displcd Brit]

The problem is that the regs refer to numerous words - "Effective, Current, Expired" etc and that really needs to be cleaned up.

I could not agree more!

Given one message from Oklahoma and another from the Certification Branch in DC no wonder we have differing viewpoints.

[gfunc]

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one confused by the regs either side of the pond.

In my experience of living here a number of years and having enjoyed the delights of the federal government bureucracy throughout, the safe answer to any reglatory matter appears to be: take the most logical pathway and invert it.

My original thinking was that the FSDO would issue me with the exact equivalent of my (UK lifetime) current licence, which is essentially dormant, requiring a current US medical and an appropriate FAA skills test pass to reactivate. Some of the regs quoted seemed to support this.

However, using my rule from above it is more than likely I'll have to go down to Florida (not a day trip from upstate NY) and then send a load of paperwork back and forth across the Atlantic.

I'll visit the FSDO and let you all know what transpires.

Thanks again guys and gals!

Gareth.

[gfunc]

Hi Folks,

Just an update as promised....

I paid out my thirty-odd quid to the CAA and submitted the appropriate "valication of foreign licence" form to the FAA in Oklahoma.

A month and a bit later, I get my certificate of authenticity from the FAA saying my PPL is still valid and current (got to love the old lifetime brown books!). My CAA medical has long gone, but a note of the cert of authenticity says I can just show up with a current FAA one. I spoke to a nice lady at the Albany FSDO and emailed her a copy of my certificate and she says once I have the medical (booked for next monday!) she will issue me an FAA ticket.

So fingered crossed that my body doesn't degenerate within a week I'll be flying again (with an instructor until I'm ready for my BFR)! :ok:

Inccidently the flight school I'm going with say that the big bad federal government check (Alien flight student program) is not required as I already have a licence - all I need is some New York specific fingerprinting from the cop shop around the corner.

Now the question is can someone direct me to a good resource for R/T differences between the UK and US (I think MS flight sim is not up to the task!)?

Thanks for all your help guys,

See you up there!

Gareth.

[gfunc]

Hi Folks!

Just to let you know that I took a trip to my local FSDO with letter of authenticity and my shiny new FAA class 3 medical (say ahhhhhh) and I have emerged with a temporary Airman certificate (Private pilot) - the 'real' one will be in the post in about 3 months.

I've got hold of a AIM/FAR 2007 book and I'm busy burrowing my way through the AIM part.

Because I haven't flown for ages, I'm also going through some fairly hefty Trevor-Thom alike (not quite as in depth) manuals that I found are freely available on the FAA site:

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/

These are actually quite decent publications and I'm surprised they don't demand cash for them! I might even look over the instrument flying for kicks and giggles if I really have nothing else to do......

I know I've got a loooong way to go, but at least I've got a step on the ladder!

Thanks once again for all your input.

Gareth.

[Wessex Boy]

Good one GFUNC!:ok: I went solo for the first time in 17 years last Saturday:cool:, so if I can do it, anyone can!

[gfunc]

Hi folks,

Latest update - I've passed my BFR!

2hours 35mins (2 flights) in a C172 and I've completed a conversion to the 172, my BFR and the club rental checkout. Not bad for 7 years out - all those 'silly' computer games seemed to help, although my touchdown are best described as 'safe' right now. Sorry to be blowing my own trumpet a bit, all I get from the Missus is 'that's nice dear' - I'm sure many of you can relate....

I have to point out the complete different attitude to private flying this side of the pond - in my time with the instructor we just covered the essentials (stall, steep turns etc) and concentrated on the bits I needed (controlled/uncontrolled airfields etc). My recollection of the UK is that I would need to spend an equal amount of time ticking every box, making it an all around less safe experience.

I also love the flight planning services - call a free number and get a full weather/notam briefing and the ability to file a VFR flight plan. No scrabbling around in a dank portacabin for illegible faxes! Throw in zero landing fees and rental at half the UK rate and I'm happy!

Thanks everyone,

Gareth.