All recruitment at SAA on hold (The world according to JetNut thread) [Archive]

beechbum

20th Mar 2007, 06:33

Yep this is true for now, unless you have a letter of appointment then everything remains as is. SAA needs to trim the work force by about 3000 people it seems, and although the airline is currently short of crew it can hardly be seen to "try" and retrench 3000 employees and at the same time hire 80 or so pilots. So in the meanwhile recruitment has been put on hold.
As for loss making routes...????? Didn't know there was any...but as any consultants do when auditing or consulting for a company, everything is put on hold until such time as a plan is brought forward to try and stem some of the bleeding...........!!!!
Sadly i think its gonna be like all the rest, the 'fix' for SAA is gonna be so unpalettable that they all just go home after a yr, with a fat cheque
Hopefully this time it won't...........but it wouldn't be surprising in the least!!!!!

Deskjocky

20th Mar 2007, 08:58

Yes indeed, the hatchet men are in town. The Seabury team have been here for the last 2 weeks. Every department in the airline has been grilled on what they spend money on. Seabury will then cut where they feel is appropriate. Having seen this operation first hand -its ruthless and Im very sure they will come up with the required. reduction in expenditure both in SA and overseas. This is the first step in the restructure- once the results are quantified, the staff compliment will be looked at- already a great deal of duplication has been identified and will be addressed by moving the staff to departments that require manpower in the short term. Then its off to the unions….honestly Im glad I don’t have that job- with all the shenanigans the top dogs have pulled over the last few years they are doing to have a hard time negotiating!

At the same time a separate team is overhauling the sales and distribution function of the airline- specifically targeting distribution cost- again major improvements have been achieved- and will lead to serious cost reduction on an ongoing basis.

Some of the long-haul routes are not making money- the reasons vary by route, but are mostly redeemable- provided fundamental corrective action is taken immediately. Steps to address this are being presented to the board in early April and if the board agrees no-one is going to be very happy with the outcome but it will deliver the cost savings and improve route profitability.

Avi8tor

20th Mar 2007, 10:13

Sorry guys, to stop R3 bar a day, u need to do more that trim off a little fat.

SAA has to decide which routes it can sustain, ditch the rest, and get down to the right size with the right cost structure. Sadly SAA cost structure is so way out of line with the industry in SA. Top to btm is way over paid and way under worked. And that is flight deck as well.

Just dont see them telling everybody to take a 30% pay cut and getting rid of 1/3 of the staff. If they did, they would be on the next plane with that big cheque.

And remember not only do they have to stop bleeding over a Billion a yr, they have to made a REAL profit. Prob requires a turn around of R3 bill. In the last couple of yrs the tax payer has had to 'recapitalise' to the tune of R4 bill a yr.

Deskjocky

20th Mar 2007, 12:11

This is not a fat trimming exercise, DPE are not that stupid and would not be duped by that. When its all over this will become evident- size wize, SAA will definitely be a smaller airline than when this process started- that is route wise as well as fleet.

reptile

20th Mar 2007, 15:18

Once again Deskjockey is 100% accurate:

Alec Irwin has made it very clear (at the last meeting between SAA and his department) that the recent capital bailout was the last. His words were to the effect that the SA taxpayer will tolerate no more.

SAA will certainly end up as a more productive, streamline and competitive airline than the one we know now. I suspect that much of the domestic market currently served by SAA will end up being operated by either Mango or SAX (the money ends up in the same coffer after all).

RunwayBlueOne

20th Mar 2007, 16:21

Interesting times ahead for sure.

Q4NVS

20th Mar 2007, 19:12

Business Process Re-Engineering

That's what it used to be called when paying Consultants millions to do very little except write damning reports.

Now I've seen a number of these before, but there is one key issue that has determined the failure of most of them.

All reports/recommendations made by such consultants at one point or another make it very clear how poor an Organisation and therefore the Individuals-in-Charge are performing.

Thus, once the Executive Summary is delivered by the Consultants, they are usually thanked and paid, but their recommendations shelved...:zzz:

It takes a very special brand of person/s in the Executive of any company to stand up and implement the tough decisions proposed. If these are not "pushed" from someone/somewhere who will not be directly affected, it might not happen at all.

Hope in this case, the tough decisions will be made "outside" the SAA Executive Boardroom. :ouch:

:oh:

JG1

21st Mar 2007, 09:59

Halve the salaries of the SAA pilots. Why should their salaries be so way out of line with the rest of the industry in South Africa? The rest of South Africa's pilots will chuckle as they file past the SAAPA picket lines for interviews:D

Solid Rust Twotter

21st Mar 2007, 10:18

Just remember that the trickle down effect is going to work faster when salaries are cut than when they're increased. If Spoories gets a pay cut you can be sure damned near everyone else will follow within a day or two.:(

fluffyfan

21st Mar 2007, 12:02

DJ SAA will definitely be a smaller airline than when this process started- that is route wise as well as fleet
Yes that makes sense, cut some of the revenue, thats sure to help, maybe they should stop flying loss making routes like Accra and fly to guaranteed profit making routes like Lisbon, Madrid, back to Bangkok, Miami, Sydney.
They need to cut the fat and up the revenue, that means right seat configurations, right aircraft.
I will take your quote with a pinch of salt DJ, after your prediction of Mango taking more of SAA's 800's fell flat, it seems you are not 100% correct all the time.
JG1..........:= I wont even go there, but I can see how you never got into SAA......no wait let me guess you never wanted to get into SAA?
DJ sorry to digress from the original post but while on the topic of Mango, please enlighten me on the status of the Mango /SAA relationship, it seems the SAA aircraft regularly fly excess Mango baggage, Mango use SITA flight plans, now which low cost airline in there right mind would use SITA (ie the costs involved), all the flight planning, load sheets all done courtesy of SAA, when a Mango aircraft breaks down SAA aircraft and crew are used, Mango leases there aircraft from SAA at a "market related rate" (less that SAA are paying for them), Mango uses the same company equity for busses, stairs, PAU's etc, companies that are in the know know that Equity charge ridiculous fees just ask the nationwide boss thats why he has bought his own, I am sure its easy to make a profit when big brother gives you all the services for free no doubt, Mango simply passes there costs to SAA and then claims they are making a profit....smoke and mirrors and it wont be long before the likes of Comair exposes this and take SAA to the competitions board again and again SAA will get a new hole torn into it. I hope the consultants see what is happening and advise SAA that they cut Mango loose.

bianchi

21st Mar 2007, 14:18

JG1

Why don't you come and work for us (SAA)? Then you won't be so bitter and twisted !! I don't think you should assume that 1/2 of the other airlines pilot force would rejoice if SAA actually apply a salary cut, because the average pilot I know(that includes pilots flying for airlines other than SAA),don't enjoy seeing any airline going down,furlough,or apply salary cuts and neither do I. We are all the same ,just working for a different brand.Good luck with your career !!!!!!

Just my "3''çents worth !!

Frogman1484

21st Mar 2007, 15:11

Well said Bianchi, I wonder how they would feel if their employer was going through a tough time. I can tell you that I've been around long enough to know that if SAA cuts the salaries, the rest of you guys will be paid in mango's as they will not have to maintain competitive salaries to stop the mangos from leaving for better paid jobs, or at least pilot jobs where you get to wear a white shirt!!!:=

nugpot

21st Mar 2007, 17:10

I don't have any wish to see any salary cuts, but I think that the SAA guys overstate the importance of their packages for the general level of pay in SA.

Our company has made it quite clear that SAA packages have zero influence at negotiations and that we can stop bringing it up. This is obviously minuted and the reverse will be true if SAA did take pay cuts.

I hope that my fellow pilots at SAA can weather this exercise and that no retrenchments/furloughs are in the offing.

Shrike200

21st Mar 2007, 19:38

Seconded. Once again it seems that SAA pilots seriously believe that their fantasy salaries are of any relevance out there in the real world.
Guys - you could be paid R1 Mil per month, or R1 - it makes no difference to anybody else. Others get paid what the market dictates, based on actual profit and loss. It would be relevant if SAA actually hired people at a higher rate - but they don't. Just take a look at the title of this thread again.

I also hope that nobody gets chucked out - more pilots on the market don't help anybody. THAT would cause salaries to change for the worse.

fluffyfan

21st Mar 2007, 20:03

If it was not such a big issue then why keep bringing it up? you guys negotiate your salary and we will negotiate ours, I really could not give a rats :mad: what the other airline crew get paid.
But why has it come to salaries again? SAA's troubles do not stem from pilot salaries of that I assure you, management would love to blame the pilots because then it would be a bunch of whiging whitey's to blame not the friends of the ANC club, the whole system at SAA is top heavy, with massive corruption and contracts for buddies, SAA just needs to decide if they want to be the great Social experiment gravy train to 1000's.... employer of all of SA's PD people, flag waving to useless nothing countries and executive taxi to every government employee, or if they want to run a business.
Why pay R450 for a printer cartridge when you can pay R200? why pay R50 for a blank disk when they actually cost R5, why keep using companies like Equity who are very expensive and there staff steal stuff from the passengers bagage, why keep using Airchef's who produce misserable meals at twice the price of the competition, why use Equity crew busses which cost R800 000 a month when you could go and buy yourself a few crew busses? ....why......because your BEE buddies are suppling these things and we must spread the wealth and pay our buddies well.
Stop with the salary thing, its got very little to do with SAA's troubles, if you are unhappy with your present salary then move, do what other people do and better yourself.
Quote from Alec Irwin "SAA is a strategic asset, and will remain a strategic asset"

I would have no problem in taking a pay cut, they must just fix the root cause of the real trouble first before they come to the pilots and ask for help, the SAA pilots and Cabin Crew are probably the only people who have a vested interest in the future of SAA, everyone else is just there to rape and pillage and take what they can get.

JG1

21st Mar 2007, 21:33

Fluffy, your comment "I really could not give a rats what the other airline crew get paid" is the reason why they will be chuckling as they walk past the SAAPA picket lines for interviews.

If SAA is to be run as a profit-making business it can't continue to bleed by paying pie-in-the-sky salaries to anyone, pilots included.

Frogman1484

22nd Mar 2007, 00:05

JGI You have no idea of what you are talking about. Do you know what percentage of costs is attributed to Pilot Salaries versus Fuel, maintenance etc. It is not that SAA pilots are over paid but that you are under paid for what you are doing. Now do not get me wrong here mate , I do not work for SAA but I'm getting a bit fed up with people like you that are always looking at what others are getting paid and then bitch when you do not get the same, but at the same time will take a lower paying package or even pay for your own rating...bollocks mate

RoMit345

22nd Mar 2007, 02:54

Well said Frogman1484. More SA crew need to stop the comparisons and decide to stand up for what they think is their value! (not too many of these where I work :mad:).

Back to the thread - at the very least we have another angle to the SAA debacle. Unless I'm mistaken these fellas sorted out Air Canada? Nothing is gonna change unless we get a semi-level playing field for the rest of the operators. Anyone know how long these processes take?

Avi8tor

22nd Mar 2007, 05:09

My initial post said that everybody at SAA is overpaid in comparison to the industry. I have no idea how the flight deck can ever justify their salaries. However, I am not saying they are the only ones.

I have every right to comment on what SAA earns, I am its only share holder. This is not an attack on my many friends at SAA. But -

I AM THE TAX PAYER, ALL SAA WORKS FOR ME.

If SAA were a private or a listed company, that would be different. But as its only share holder, I want a profit. And sadly, labour is supply and demand. Last time i looked, there are plenty of guys earning peanuts flying rubber dog do around. Also plenty of people queueing to be check- in staff , COE's etc.

I want my taxes to be spent on fixing roads, providing electricity and stopping crime.

fluffyfan

22nd Mar 2007, 06:50

I want my taxes to be spent on fixing roads, providing electricity and stopping crime.

:rolleyes: ok well good luck with that one.

let me ask you Avi8tor what do SAA pilots earn? do you know or do you think you know? what should they earn? same as Nationwide, same as Comair? would you then be happy, what is the story surrounding SAA pilots salaries, what is parity? how is it worked out? who worked it out? do SAA pilots even have Parity? if you can answer these questions you will come to your own conclusion, there is a big myth out there that SAA pilots earn huge salaries, its simply not the case, just get the facts.

I am also a tax payer mate, but I have a lot more riding on SAA's future than you do more, I have not met one pilot who would not agree to having his salary cut if that meant SAA would survive, however as I have said that is really not the problem, the problems are way deeper and they need to fix those problems first as the pilot group has been saying for decades.

beechbum

22nd Mar 2007, 07:02

Strange that the slanging match has to revert to SAA pilots salaries.:ugh: As previous posters have stated, nothing to do with why recruitment at SAA has been put on hold. So guys get over it!!! Realistically the airline is overstaffed, more personnel per aircraft than probably any other airline in the world, this ranges from check in staff right up to senior managers! This is where the trimming has to start....will it be done?.....ummmm anyones guess! But to state that SAA crew get overpaid, it's more a case of certain others under pay their pilots. So be it!
I AM THE TAX PAYER, ALL SAA WORKS FOR ME....hey me too. But who the :mad: bloody hell cares. It's one of those things we unfortunately have to bare. Take it or leave it...I suppose. And it ain't going to change!
SAA has got to sort out its mess within the year, and try and get on an even keel. Sort out all the outdated contracts,(which amount to R273 million odd) bring managers in line and generally clean out the cobwebs that have been around many a year.
Unforunately it won't be an easy task, unions will be jumping up and down, certain peepol will be toy toying in the streets, strikes, fights and other things.
Unless I'm mistaken these fellas sorted out Air Canada?
- I've heard the same, amongst other airlines. So maybe a slight glimmer of hope here!:D

divinehover

22nd Mar 2007, 07:12

Kernel

22nd Mar 2007, 07:41

They applied a mutually aggreed apon formula based on various domestic and international carriers (yes we are an international carrier unlike the rest of you). We fly further, longer, in bigger, more advanced aircraft than the rest of the locals

And Nationwide don't fly long-haul, advanced aircraft on international routes? I thought not...but of course when working for SAA why think about anything else except your own little world?

beechbum

22nd Mar 2007, 08:02

Pprune members...........request!!!!
Just a question since we are all "professional" pilots here, why is it that everyone tends to slag off SAA pilots? C'mon guys what is it? Professional jealousy? Fancy equipment, fancy salaries? I know this is off topic but when we're all discussing SAA recruitment and the slagging starts man it makes me ashamed to be amongst the so called professional individuals on this forum.
I get to hear it every day in fact....listen to that SAA guy on the radio....:mad: :mad: ....ag..bloody tax payer this tax payer that!! What for? I dunno 'cos it's kinda childish don't you think!

The whale is bleeding so hopefully our national carrier and "our" colleagues can come out of this turmoil in one piece! Leave the SAA pilot/salary slagging to another day.
Kinda boring............:zzz: :zzz: :zzz: yawn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fluffyfan

22nd Mar 2007, 08:14

Ok back to the post.

Yes all new recruitments are on hold, not cancelled just on hold, unlike DJ suggests I think SAA is going into a phase of expansion, more aircraft and hence more aircrew required.

SAA is 70-80 (figures vary) pilots short already, now with a little luck the over 60's agreement will fall away soon due to a number of reasons, which I will not go into here due to it being a very sensitive subject, so SAA will be short of crew, I am sure the consultants will see this and make appropropriate suggestions.

JG1 dont bother applying as you obviously have no interest in flying for SAA

SubsonicMortal

22nd Mar 2007, 09:17

I'm not usually one to contribute to threads but JG1's constant hacking at overpaid SAA pilots is starting to really p!$$ me off. SAA pilots are well paid and so they should be. Most of the pilot body have been with the copany for over a couple decades which equates to a fair amount of experience. Airline pilots are professionals, in the same likes as surgeons, engineers and other field specialists of various other professions. Why should a 30-year service captain be happy with taking R80K home a month? Look at what other major international arilines are paying their crew and then stop whinging about the fact that you could never make it to the interview.

Drop the salaries and you will see pilots starting to leave for higher paid jobs elsewhere. The crisis-management solution will be to hire contracted guys from Parc and the like who will obviouly not have the best interest for the company at heart. 10 SAA pilot's alone could save the company more money in reduced fuel burn than the 3000 excess workers who sit at their desk, picking their noses while trying to figure out what solitair is all about. Eisshhhh...

Oh and BTW, I am not an SAA jockey. I was once a wannabe but thanks to the fair BEE system, am forced to fly for an airline north of the Limpopo. I still get excited like a little boy when flying accross the Indian ocean on a dark night and in the distance can hear "Springbok" calling Bombay HF. I look at my captain and say, "isn't that an awesome callsign, It's from my national carrier." :ok:

Deskjocky

22nd Mar 2007, 10:04

Fluffy. You might not like what I have to say and that’s fine- reality is that SAA is up the creek and the paddle is floating away. Why we are where we are is a function of a number of things- and no Im not one who subscribes to getting the pilots-or anyone else for that matter …well maybe Khaya - to take a pay cut because that’s not where the problem really lies. The issues are fundamental and if not addressed this business will continue to burn cash at the rate its been doing. Capital reserves have been wiped out, decisions are taken by the wrong people on the basis of flawed strategy- this needs to change.

Right now the priority is to stem the flow of cash out the business- this encompasses recruitment, contracts (including leases) etc. Your answer to everything is to grow- fly more places, get more aircraft. Problem is what’s the point if your business is not in a position to leverage that growth? Size has no relation to profitability. If the submission to the board on the fleet is approved then there will be a reduction the number of aircraft operated- yes this means there are one or two routes that now hang in the balance, however the effects will be minimized by increasing utilization on the remaining aircraft to a point. No crew will be out of work as the increased utilization on the remaining fleet will absorb them.

Once we move the business out of the ICU unit and prove to DPE that the balance sheet is looking better AND the performance is sustainable- then they will provide the 4bil recap. If the DPE’s conditions are not met then no money and no SAA. Simple.

So many questions on Mango, which clearly you believe to be the root of all evil. Despite your feelings, SAA still owns Mango- the relationship the two companies have is in no way anti competitive- if it were I can assure you messers Novick, Orsmond, Bricknell would be bleating about it already. Why does Mango use Equity- well why does 1Time use them? why does Mango use SAT- well why does Comair use them for their 737’s? etc etc

As things stand right now Mango’s future seems pretty well set- can the same be said for SAA right now? It will be if we get this right- there is no choice.

madherb

22nd Mar 2007, 10:12

And Nationwide don't fly long-haul, advanced aircraft on international routes? I thought not...but of course when working for SAA why think about anything else except your own little world?That's a pretty dumb comment. Lots of pilots left Nationwide because of the poor salaries. SAA pilots are rational beings, one would hope, and not insensitive to the plight of others - maybe if you were in that situation, you would donate half your earnings to your underpaid colleagues............

Tropicalchief

22nd Mar 2007, 10:19

Avi8tor,

Your taxes also pay for government administration from the president down. How are they doing with infrastructure and crime fighting these days? At least the SAA pilots get you to where you want to go, can't say the same about the governments efforts.

beechbum

22nd Mar 2007, 10:39

DJ,
Wouldn't it be a good idea to offer the man at the top, who seems to have no clue anyway, some sort of incentive scheme. Hold the carrot in one hand and demand something from the other. After all we are dealing with someone who makes eternal excuses for his spendthrift attitude. Make it work or you can find another bed to lie around in, should be the motto.....I know it's not that easy but I'm afraid someone needs to be made accountable for such losses. Don't you think? Makes me wonder what Maria Ramos was thinking when appointing said CEO....job for the boys maybe?
I think it's finally about time we saw some movin and shakin!
Subsonicmortal have to agree with your post entirely.......!!! Well put! :ok:
Just a question DJ, with the expense of the 747-400's and the impending arrival of the A340's back from lease, could we see a quicker exit of the 74's. I believe the lease agreements are costing a bomb! What of the article on the A340-500's from Thai...any truth in the rumour?
Well lets hope the consultants come up with a lifesaver and ol' Khaya and his logic comes to the party.........finally!
Talking of party...have Mango management taken up Kululas' offer yet?

TooBadSoSad

22nd Mar 2007, 10:45

JG1, PM me your real name and I will go and see if your CV is sitting on the top shelf in the flight deck crew recruitment room. Chances are it is!! By the way, that shelf is labelled something like "Not suitable - Do not interview again".

And DJ, what's the real story about the B744 fleet being parked? How do you park a fleet on which you are making lease payments of around $1 million per a/c per month? I do agree with you that SAA will shrink in the short term. Hopefully less one KN and NM as well. My opinion is that senior government appointed management has really stuffed up the airline!!

fluffyfan

22nd Mar 2007, 10:45

DJ I agree completely, the source of the problem must be fixed, and the source is just plain simple bad management, the government needs to decide if SAA is a BEE social employment agency or a business, it seems they would like it to be a business they have made it quite clear thats what they want, so they must then cut the :mad: and run it like a business.

There really is no alternate than for SAA to exist, what are the options? lots of sabre rattling by government but contemplate the alternatives.

I do not have anything against Mango, I am glad its there to give the competition a run for there money but lets be honest the Mango balance sheet is not telling the true story and I am concerned that the true story might just be a nett loss, it helps nobody to hide the true operating costs, we will never know if its a success or not.

beechbum

22nd Mar 2007, 10:56

do not have anything against Mango, I am glad its there to give the competition a run for there money but lets be honest the Mango balance sheet is not telling the true story and I am concerned that the true story might just be a nett loss,
Maybe the reason why it's not being brought out in the open, is that SAA could be/trying to fund the loss, maybe, and then scared that if truth prevails the anti competition board will be set alight with Comair and NTW trying to strike the first match.
This again would cost SAA more money and so the viscous circle continues.
DJ, I can see you're a Mango fan, so maybe shed just a little light and stop the rumour mongers......!!!! Just a thought!
Who knows....thing is we'll probably never know!

I.R.PIRATE

22nd Mar 2007, 11:43

Reading through all of this I am strangely (being no lover of SAA) moved to say what I notice here. Instead of bashing SAA (which I too love)'s pilot salaries, we should be bashing the other local airlines to up the ante and pay competitive salaries. Unless everybody is paid their worth, there will always be someone who feels hard done by.

Must say that spoories drivers are a little quick to gloat, always dragging the whole employment envy out of the closet. Remember that guys at the other carriers didnt chose their salaries and type of hardware they operate, they are just trying to make an existance, like you. Albeit in a slightly less cushy environment.

Airline pilots should be standing together to raise the level of what is on offer here in SA, instead of the tiresome verbal masturbation contest we witness here daily.:ok:

Deskjocky

22nd Mar 2007, 12:30

On the 345's that's total BS, we would like to go in another direction. Thai is trying to offload theirs and are trying to spice up the market a little.

744's...the proposal is going to be to park the whole lot- obviously there is an effort on the go to get rid of them but its probably safe to say we wont be able to offload all of them and so what doesn’t go will wined up looking at the fence in the technical area. The numbers are really against these machines, the revised schedule- without them in it, but still including their lease costs- saves us a few hundred million a year, its hard to justify keeping them on in the face of that. Its going to be a really sad day if the board agree’s…which they probably will, money is money.

To answer the question on Mango…..they are well ahead of their projections and are trading in the black. What’s interesting to note here is if a comparison is done on SAA’s domestic passenger numbers for February 06 vs Feb 07,there about a 4% growth- given the fact that Feb 06 also included GRJ which is not the case in Feb 07 this figure is all the more interesting. So if Mango is not hurting SAA then where are these pax coming from?

Frogman1484

22nd Mar 2007, 12:50

beechbum

22nd Mar 2007, 12:57

Gee whiz....park the queen of the skies! Yikes that will be a sad day indeed!
Hopefully someone out there needs a few -400's as I and am sure a few others don't want to see them rot in the sunshine!
I know Oasis in HK is looking for a few......at a good price! But suppose that's another story!
On the 345's that's total BS, we would like to go in another direction.
So no A340-500's then. Wonder how that story came to light? Well lets hope the direction is a good one then...... like Boeing buying all of SAA's Airbuses and equipping the fleet with 777's and 787's :ok: ......even Virgin is going away from the 4 engines 4 longhaul! Yeeha......bring it on!
Now back to the recruitment on hold and slagging off the pilots' salaries bit...now where were we???????????

Deskjocky

22nd Mar 2007, 13:07

I know Oasis in HK is looking for a few......at a good price! But suppose that's another story

Yes, heard that too, something for the future perhaps.

even Virgin is going away from the 4 engines 4 longhaul! Yeeha......bring it on!

I tend to agree- not on the Boeings, but the 2 versus 4 debate......seems a long way off at this point...:hmm:

Kernel

22nd Mar 2007, 13:47

madherb, I was not referring to the salary situation between Nationwide and SAA. As was pointed in an earlier post pilots cannot afford to be picky or choosy over airline jobs in this country. The point I was trying to make is that SAA is not the only international carrier in this country (as Divinehover seems to think)

yes we are an international carrier unlike the rest of you

I have got nothing against SAA whatsoever, and like most pilots in this country (whether or not they will admit it) it's the company I'd ultimately like to fly for.

Nonetheless, thats my 2c, will now go back to being an observer ;)

JG1

22nd Mar 2007, 15:18

Divinehover - you said "SAA pilot salaries are not where they are due to good luck. They applied a mutually aggreed apon formula based on various domestic and international carriers (yes we are an international carrier unlike the rest of you). Nationwide is also intercontinental, if thats what you mean, plenty of cross-border, hence international carriers in SA.We fly further, longer, Plenty of domestic pilots in SA would like a change and fly long-haul.in bigger, more advanced aircraft Plenty of them would take a pay cut to fly better equipment, too. And plenty would prefer staying in five-star hotels in civilised places like Paris and London rather than African hotels in Livingstone or Luanda.than the rest of the locals. We get paid more because we are the standard in this country. Our pilot group as a whole is the most experienced and professional this continent has. Plenty of locals with the required experience would do an SAA pilots job for nearly half the SAA salary. Plenty of new RDP pilots at SAA with far less experience than a lot of the local guys. As for the 'difficulty in replacing big jet pilots, break out of your SAA 15-years-to-command mindset and look north to Europe and the ME to see how easily it is done. I fly a big jet and probably have less hours than a lot of Fluffy pilots in SA.

PS. If anyone was surprised at the lack of modesty in this post.? Don't be.Not surprised at all:cool:

TooBadSoSad

22nd Mar 2007, 15:20

DJ, when you say the revised schedule- without them in it how can there be a revised schedule if the consultants from Seabury are still busy analysing the entire operation. Additionally, my understanding is that the consultants will be presenting their report on the B744 fleet to the board on the 4th of April, so taking the above two points into consideration I don't see how you can conclusively say the fleet will be exited?? However, my gut feel is that the B744 is on its way out.

Avi8tor

22nd Mar 2007, 20:39

I think the thread has gone wild!!! This is not to bash SAA or my many friends there!!!!

This is about getting a healthy long term future for the industry. SAA needs to be made profitable and privatised. Same for SAX and Mango. We need a level playing field.

Once that happens, the strongest business model will win out. There will be some pain to start with, but it will lead to more jobs and better average salaries for all, long term.

I am have to laugh at the group that think, as pilots, we are gods. That they deserve a huge tax payer subsidise salary and everybody else needs to take the cut to made SAA profitable.

Sorry guys, its gotta be cuts top to bottom. The airline will go broke whoever goes on strike, check-in staff, cabin or pilots. And my I remind u that there are loads of ppl waiting to take the jobs.

fluffyfan

22nd Mar 2007, 21:05

JG1 As for the 'difficulty in replacing big jet pilots, break out of your SAA 15-years-to-command mindset and look north to Europe and the ME to see how easily it is done. I fly a big jet and probably have less hours than a lot of Fluffy pilots in SA.

OK JG1 I will pass it on to management just PM me your details I am sure you will get a A340 command as soon as they learn you are out there, how shortsighted of SAA not to have you on the payrole, who needs a seniority list its just a pain to the company I mean why make someone like you with your obvious flying skill sit behind some old fart who has been flying around the world for the last 15 years, unfair I tell you.

DJ the consultants are probably the best thing to happen to SAA in a very long time, it seems they are here to see the implimentation of some of the ideas as well, not just recommend, and yes hard decisions will have to be made, the unions will go beserk....but if thats the way it has to be, so be it, the pilot body has been asking for this kind of thing for a long time we just want a healthy profitable SAA and a future we can look forward to, in retrospect I can see what you were saying that the fleets might shrink initially, as long as when/if we become profitable they see the obvious need to expand again, thats if we want to compete and be a global player, everyone else is expanding so best we dont miss the boat.

CJ750

22nd Mar 2007, 21:24

It is amazing how this thread has wound its way through various subjects and how many airline managers we have participating. Why don't you all walk in and take over. SAA will always take flak being the airline around which South African Aviation revolves which ever way you try and look at it. Why does Fluffyfan get his back up so quickly.

I agree there are many more problems that we all pretend to know about but don't slag somebody who is offering an opinion/suggestion when you are not a manager yourself. This gives everyone especially the SAA PILOT HATERS guild a push. Are SAA pilot salaries not a cost to the airline however small/big they are.

Give the process a chance and see what comes about . Nobody likes to see pilots out of work but when you start saying airline pilots are the only professional pilots around then i start to worry. Certain contributions certainly give me the impression that SAA pilots are the only pilots that are good enough and any one else is lower than shark sh:mad:... and should not be contributing to this discussion. Everyone is free to offer an opinion but certain guys on this thread think that if you don't work for SAA then you don't have a brain.

Guys lets wait and see but unfortunately AFRICA has a reputation , and this looks like it is following suit. NEGATIVITY> See previous thread on this forum.

Frogman1484

22nd Mar 2007, 23:40

JGI...you are over paid for what you do because I know people that will do your job for nothing just to get experiance...does that mean you are over paid.:ugh: :ugh:

beechbum

23rd Mar 2007, 07:13

Found this on the other forum...........

SOUTH African Airways (SAA) is to announce its new business plan, modelled on that of Air Canada's, on May 1 this year, following an in-depth, independent look at its operations.
Speaking to delegates at the Asata Congress, which kicked off yesterday (March 22) at Misty Hills in Johannesburg, ceo, Khaya Ngqula, likened the airline's current operations to "using a Rolls Royce to ferry passengers between Johannesburg and Soweto".
"Our focus over the next year is to simplify our business," said Ngqula, citing the division of the airline into six new companies: SAA technical, cargo, ground handling and airport operations, SAA itself, low-cost carrier Mango, and SAA Voyager.
Ngqula said the next 12 to 18 months would be "tough", with recently adopted cost-cutting measures including the establishment of a "cash conservation office" responsible for approving all the airline's costs. He implied that part of the restructuring may entail staff cuts. Ngqula also confirmed R20bn revenue for the year ending in March 2007, but added that this did not mean the airline would show a profit. "We have to make the airline viable for everybody," said Ngqula.
Among further measures, he said, would be the re-evaluation of all routes and possible withdrawal of those that were not profitable. He confirmed that both the Munich and Buenos Aires routes would go ahead as planned. Khaya also told delegates the airline had no current plans to buy additional aircraft.

fluffyfan

23rd Mar 2007, 07:18

CJ750 sorry to hear of your distress, but please tell me you dont suscribe to JG1's point of view, it sounds like he is advocating that we fire half the pilots at SAA because they are horribly overpaid, the solution is to hire young guys like himself who are willing to work for a third of the salary, I mean as Avi8tor said
And my I remind u that there are loads of ppl waiting to take the jobs
What clever solutions, best we let British Airways/Quantas/United/Delta/American/Lufthansa/Air New Zealand/Cathay , know of the obvious way out to high pilot slaries.

I am really not going to discuss the seniority list system, but it should be fairly self explainatory why young guys are getting comands early in Europe and the middle East, not because Airlines have discovered that you dont need to wait a long time for command, but because there such an incredible shortage of pilots especialy experienced pilots over there.

JG1 you are an asset to your company VB must have a little chuckle every time he is buying a new sports car or when he is having a drink on the balcony of his mansion, he must be extreamly happy he has guys like you in the company, no labour problems, you must think the Nationwide salaries are quite adequate, how did you get in did you stand at the Nationwide HQ with a sign saying "Will Fly For Food"?

(sorry 4HP I know I am on the verge of getting the boot but could not help it)

Frogman1484

23rd Mar 2007, 07:44

The problem with SAA is that it has not grown like the rest of the airlines in the world. Why do you think CX EK QF etc are all buying more hardware. Cx has to expand at 7-8% per year to maintain the profit it has got used to EK is the same.

I say sack the top leadership for incompetence and get proper airline people to fix it...no Andrews please.

nugpot

23rd Mar 2007, 09:10

Here is another angle about why pilots that are flying heavy metal get paid more. What does it cost in training to replace an FO or a Capt, in comparison to the salary , it is far more important to maintain a steady workforce than to have to retrain a new one every week...by the way we are talking about big jets not fluffies.
Come-on Frogman. Do you seriously believe that a 747 sim costs more to operate than a 737 sim? The base training might be more expensive, but hell, it only happens once.
Why should a 30-year service captain be happy with taking R80K home a month?
Maybe SubsonicMortal because that is a hell of a lot of money........
there is a big myth out there that SAA pilots earn huge salaries, its simply not the case, just get the facts.
Its no myth fluffy, and don't tempt me to post your scales.
Like I said before. I don't believe that anything will be solved by making SAA pilots take a paycut (except maybe wind in their collective overconfident necks;) (just joking - many mates there)). The problems at SAA goes way beyond what they pay their pilots. The one thing is true. If SAA salaries are drastically reduced, they will need to train a lot of pilots to replace their experienced crew who WILL leave for more money. That would cost a packet.
My final plea to the SAA drivers. Don't try to justify your salaries. Take your money and buy your Porsches and just keep quiet about it. It solves nothing to get into an argument about how awesome you are and how SAA recognised this from a CV and invited you to an interview. I also know that your dad/uncle/brother/SAAF mate had nothing to do with this. The guys I know in SAA are the usual mix. 99% great guys and 1% completely useless idiots - same as in my current airline.
A word of warning to the SAA doom-prophets. If SAA folded, there would suddenly be 800 highly experienced pilots on the market and you would be stuck in your current job for a long, long time.

Shrike200

23rd Mar 2007, 09:28

Nicely put Nugpot - good comments. R80K per month? Thats DOUBLE what a senior Nationwide Captain earns, just for example. Nationwide being the 'low' side of the equation of course. And, when you look at it (on the domestic side at least), a Nationwide Captain does the same *kind* of work (just more of it, in older aircraft - I hear they're quite quick with the QRH :) )

It's the comments like: "They applied a mutually aggreed apon formula based on various domestic and international carriers (yes we are an international carrier unlike the rest of you). We fly further, longer, than the rest of the locals. We get paid more because we are the standard in this country. Our pilot group as a whole is the most experienced and professional this continent has." that bug me. It achieves nothing other than to piss other people off. If you've got nothing to add (other than how legendary you feel you are), then rather leave it I reckon.

Besides the salary sidetrack, and back to the topic, is there some kind of time-frame for this 'freeze'? Or is it indefinite at the moment?

beechbum

23rd Mar 2007, 09:47

is there some kind of time-frame for this 'freeze'?
I suppose as long as it takes the consultants to undertake their findings within the airline. I've heard stories that they'll be here for around 2-3 months. So with that in mind and if any form of go ahead is given to unfreeze the recruitment then that's what we'll be looking at!!!!!!!!!!!
And unfortunatley we'll always get those arrogant individuals who think that they're the only ones allowed into the hallowed halls of aviation........the word skygod springs to mind here!!! Shame!!! So be it!
Who knows maybe he calls himself Figjam..... F:mad: k I'm good, just ask me!!
:p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p
Back to the topic................................:zzz: :zzz:

fluffyfan

23rd Mar 2007, 11:34

Oh dear back to the salary argument, firstly let me just state that everyone at SAA was where you guys are now, many ex Nationwide, SAX, Airlink etc pilots working for SAA, and I myself was a SAA hater, Skygods, arrogant etc, the tune does change when you get in understandably so.
I simply dont see why people working for other airlines feel the need to comment on the SAA pilots salaries, I am sure it is hurting SAA management, if we were paid half the amount we are getting now it would also hurt management, thats because they cannot run the company properly, the SAA salaries are but a drop in the ocean of the airline expenses but I am sure managemnet would love to cut them and blame the pilots for all there woes, unfortunatley for them that is not the case. The salaries are part of the equation that they have to manage, you need pilots to fly aircraft, could you imagine if SAA went to Boeing and said those lease costs are ridiculous, we dont care if its what everone else pays to lease an aircraft it just ridiculous and we are cutting the lease payments by 30%.........Boeing would give SAA a fat toffee

Yes 80k per month is a whole lot of money and I wish I was getting that but I am not far enough up the seniority list yet, the salaries of pilots at SAA was not always good, not too long ago it was horrible, however it has taken lots of time and negotiation and legal expenses to get where the salaries are today, 80k a month is alot, but my neighbour who has been out of varsity for 3 years and is a SAP programmer takes home in excess of 50k per month (takes home) so he is paid approx 90k per month.... Part of the parity agreement (and we do not have parity by the way) is to consider equvalent positions outside of the airline, and its a huge complicated formula.

SAA guys are paid well, but is it too much or are the rest of the airline guys in SA paid to little? the only reason SAA salaries are where they are, is that the pilots at SAA have stood together with 100% membership to the union and demanded a fair wage. Nationwide and others are ripping there pilots off they are exploiting you because they know they can, because you do not stand together and will do nothing but maybe grumble to yourselves a little.

Thats it I will comment no more on the salaries, I am done trying to make you guys understand, as I have said in numerous posts above, most of the pilots I have spoken to would take a pay cut if it was necessary, but pilot salaries are not responsible for the woes of the company. The SAA pilots are not horrible greedy individules who all drive Porsches (I drive a Tazz by the way), we are just like the rest of you, and nugpot we dont keep mentioning our salaries, it keeps coming up and attacked, why justify our salaries......because its worth justiflying we have worked long and hard to get what we have.

Frogman1484

23rd Mar 2007, 12:00

Mate, 80 K a month is not enough!!! They pay more in India flying for Jet airways, and that is for a year 1 Captain.:D :D

And Yes believe it or not it does cost more to train a 400 pilot than a 737. To start the 400 sim is far come complex than the 737 and therefore costs a lot more to buy. The crew that are training the crews cost more and therefore your training as a whole costs more. Your base training will also cost more try 7-10 tones of fuel an hour for the 400 just for starters.

TooBadSoSad

23rd Mar 2007, 12:49

SAA's B747-400 simulator is a zero flight time certified sim!! Therefore no base training is required.

sky waiter

23rd Mar 2007, 13:02

Look,

All you guys bashing the national carrier- jealousy does make you nasty- i would love to get into to SAA but having said that any airline will do at this stage, in SA. Do i think the salaries are fair, yes! For whichever airline you get into- you signed the contract and you knew what you were going to earn before you got into it, everyone has every right to b*&^, i do too but at the end of the day its what you make of it, and the lucky ones are making alot of it. You just gotta try your best to join them or otherwise deal with your situation and try change it for the better....

As alot of people have said, if SAA retrench that spells big problems for all of us, especially now that the SA market is in the upswing, that would ruin it for everyone again, and possibly if everyone stood together at the other airlines maybe something would/could be done.

All i've ever wanted to do since day one was be an airline pilot- the salaries are alot better than most other flying jobs out there, plus most of the conditions are cushier too, so if someone anywhere would like to give up there position for me, please feel free,I'm not saying ill work for free i expect some sort of decent renumeration because im a qualified proffesional (apparently) but at least ill be at home more than now and ill do my best to shut up for a little while, but there are never any garuantees.:ok:

bianchi

23rd Mar 2007, 17:46

Skywaiter,

You have summirized it all !!! Treat closed !

BIANCHI

Champagne Lover

23rd Mar 2007, 20:00

SAA pilot salaries are not where they are due to good luck. They applied a mutually aggreed apon formula based on various domestic and international carriers (yes we are an international carrier unlike the rest of you). We fly further, longer, in bigger, more advanced aircraft than the rest of the locals. We get paid more because we are the standard in this country. Our pilot group as a whole is the most experienced and professional this continent has. The pilots are one of the few things keeping SAA together. SAA pilot salaries whether high or low will not inpact on SAA's botton line. That's up to Mr Erwin and who of his friends he wants to run SAA.
PS. If anyone was surprised at the lack of modesty in this post.? Don't be.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Divinehover, look at your text. Maybe now you can understand when we taxi past you you we greet you with "Dag P..s"!
The line I fly for earns a lot less than most other lines. When I taxi past them, I give a genuine hello-there wave. But "Spoories" with their condescending, better-than-you attitude, you get the middle finger!
So you believe you have "better aviators" flying for you. Kak!
If we are sent every 6 months to the simulator we would be exactly the same!
Oh yes, your point: We do go every six months, you don't. So we are better honed. The fact is correct, certainly. But, if you were privatized, there would no longer be every 6 months etc etc......you would have to make do like the rest of us MORTALS!
You use SITA, wow! Does Uncle Alec know what that costs?.......
The HUD systems........we can land when you can't. Is that the argument? Oh, do you mind refreshing our short memories about how professional you are, the George approaches, unlocked reversers, go around next to the runway etc.
The legions of aero planes SAA have lost over the years. Oh yes, it's not your fault! Sorry!! We knew what was on board but still went! We didn't know about the flap speeds, and it was night anyway....etc etc...... But compare us to X! We do..... to the Australian NATIONAL carrier. Bench-Mark in safety, for you anyway. Sum total of accidents: when she parked the nose of the 400 in the golf course......
We get paid more because we are the standard in the country.
What can I say?
I SEE NO REASON FOR A BLOODY FLAG CARRIER! Never have either.
The sum total of government involvement in commercial aviation should only be the ATNS and CAA. Intervene to guarantee that South Africans get the correct amount of slots. Stay out of commercial aviation as such! Concern yourself with "Brown-Aero planes", and leave the commercial stuff to the entrepreneurs!

CXtreme

24th Mar 2007, 02:15

The timing for restructuring is perfect. Get them fit and in shape for the World Cup 2010. I get the feeling this is their last chance. If they don’t post huge profit in 2010 /2011 I am afraid there is no place for them in this ever increasingly global game.

Now let me go downtown and spend my profit share.
Hope to see the normal S.A.A. crowd at the Hong Kong seven’s next week and hear their take after a LOT of Heineken.

CXtreme

24th Mar 2007, 02:24

P.S. At a Fleet Forum last week the D.F.O. said he was aiming at 50 B744 freighters as they can use them like yesterday. There is a couple of ex S.A.A. 400’s flying with CX already, and they have their eye on the rest of the S.A.A. fleet. These aircraft are all well maintained and have some nice bells and whistles.
The problem? Cannot train crew fast enough!!

ERASER

24th Mar 2007, 08:40

"FF - the SAA pilots and Cabin Crew are probably the only people who have a vested interest in the future of SAA, everyone else is just there to rape and pillage and take what they can get."

Oh please FF, this is such BS..........Your statement is so typical "SAA (cabin) crew" almost neurotic. Maybe it's because the flying crew are so isolated from the rest of the company that they truly believe everybody else in the company is going all out to "get" them.............It's not true my friend.

The “other” staff are also working very hard to keep SAA going, each and everyone fearing the "chop" coming their way.....all of them important to the future of the company. Yes you have "dead wood" in all levels believing SAA owing them a living because of what ever reason. Your pale staff believing they are going to be on the forefront of the “chop” and your darker staff believing they’re “untouchable” both attitudes not conducive to a healthy work force.
You are all in this together and should stick together, if anybody out there believes about 3000 SAA staff just sitting around without work, you are very, very wrong assuming this. The cut will come, but I doubt if it will be that high.
Yes the SAA staff compliment could be leaner and “meaner” but working in SA everybody knows that the planning on paper does not necessary reflect the actual working conditions and worker tendencies. I believe sick leave, AWOL and transport “problems” being the more serious issues facing your company. How can you “cut” your workforce to be lean while keeping transformation on track and expecting operations to continue without any delays?
Heard from a friend of a friend of a friend………..a rumour really, that the subsistence allowances will be addressed shortly, Seabury want to drastically reduce your daily subsistence allowances.

You’re in for a rough patch and I do hope all my friends at SAA will be untouched but I seriously doubt it…………

E

PS CL……….:p

putt for dough

24th Mar 2007, 09:38

Does anybody out there know what the consultants
are charging? Are they earning a commision based on what
they find or are they on a flat rate?
Cheers:ok:

Solid Rust Twotter

25th Mar 2007, 05:15

We live in a country where people are on strike demanding they be paid out for sick days not taken. WTF?!:eek: The attitude of entitlement will turn this into another goatscrew with productive workers being laid off and deadwood promoted. Those who keep the show on the road with their hard work and dedication will once again get the shaft while upper management grows ever more top heavy and less in touch with reality as the gravy train fills up. They have a chance to turn things around and make it work but I'm not holding my breath. It would be nice to be pleasantly surprised for a change, though...

Cynical? Moi...?:rolleyes:

I.R.PIRATE

26th Mar 2007, 07:47

Aha, so its all a money thing then?

Deskjocky

26th Mar 2007, 11:27

Yes the SAA staff compliment could be leaner and “meaner” but working in SA everybody knows that the planning on paper does not necessary reflect the actual working conditions and worker tendencies. I believe sick leave, AWOL and transport “problems” being the more serious issues facing your company. How can you “cut” your workforce to be lean while keeping transformation on track and expecting operations to continue without any delays?

Too right, doesn’t matter how many heads you cut this will still be there. Most of the time these types of indiscretions go unpunished due to very effective union intervention into the disciplinary process.

At some time in the negotiation process the unions are going to recognise that they can stall and demand to see all manner of documentation- that will gladly be provided- but fundamentally they are going to loose some comrades in this struggle. To cut the number who are going to go, they are already intimating that they are willing to make concessions in terms of benefits- even certain changes to their conditions of employment. Then it will be time to talk sick leave etc.

FUG

27th Mar 2007, 09:18

What is fairly amusing is that Khaya chose to share his plan for saving costs and restructuring SAA at the ASATA Congress in Muldersdrift this past weekend. 300 people attended, only 1 arrived in a helicopter.

Deskjocky

27th Mar 2007, 09:33

:mad: Real shocker- there are all the SAA sales people waiting for the boss on Thursday morning 09h00, so one of them asks him: "So Khaya, glad to see you made it through all that traffic", Khaya: "what traffic, used the helicopter to get here!" :eek: :eek: :eek: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: and he continued: “ its because I’m off to a meeting in Pretoria soon as I’m done” no one bothered to inform his highness that the Krugersdorp freeway is very quite that time of the day!!!

This is the same guy who at the top 100 manager’s meeting was giving the “we have to cut costs- no discretionary expenditure” etc etc. Wonder who signed off his purchase request at the cash conservation office- makes the whole thing a farce.

This guy just does not live in the real world.:ugh: :mad:

putt for dough

27th Mar 2007, 10:28

Yes DJ I agree!
But why are we suprised at his foolishness?:hmm:

ERASER

27th Mar 2007, 11:01

Why shocked or surprised ? The chopper saga never stopped, rumour has it that the chopper does the pickup & drop off runs from the ARWYP heli pad.......not in SAA Technical as usual....away from those nosy SAA worker types......

E

JG1

27th Mar 2007, 11:50

Famous Quotes from Fluffyfan:-

“OK JG1 .. I am sure you will get a A340 command as soon as they learn you are out there, how shortsighted of SAA not to have you on the payrole, who needs a seniority list”
Fluffyfan, it’s ok thanks, I don’t need an A340 command. I’m quite happy with mine.

“please tell me you dont suscribe to JG1's point of view, it sounds like he is advocating that we fire half the pilots at SAA because they are horribly overpaid, the solution is to hire young guys like himself who are willing to work for a third of the salary”
JG1 actually said that the SAA pilots salaries are completely out of line with the rest of the industry in South Africa and suggested that if SAA pilots weren’t happy with taking pay cuts then plenty of local pilots would be happy to take over their jobs at the new pay scales.

“JG1 you are an asset to your company VB must have a little chuckle every time he is buying a new sports car or when he is having a drink on the balcony of his mansion, he must be extreamly happy he has guys like you in the company, no labour problems, you must think the Nationwide salaries are quite adequate, how did you get in did you stand at the Nationwide HQ with a sign saying "Will Fly For Food"?”
Sorry, you are ‘extreamly’ wrong, Fluff.

“I am really not going to discuss the seniority list system”
We didn’t ask you to. We weren’t discussing it. We were discussing pay scales.

“SAA guys are paid well, but is it too much or are the rest of the airline guys in SA paid to little? the only reason SAA salaries are where they are, is that the pilots at SAA have stood together with 100% membership to the union and demanded a fair wage.”
Ever heard of market forces? Funny how all the airlines in SA except SAA pay relatively equal salaries, but SAA stands out like a sore thumb at double what all the other guys are getting. SAAPA did demand, they held the airline to ransom, and got their demands. Only because SAA is government-funded did they get their demands – in a market-driven private airline they would have been shown a toffee themselves.

“SAA (pilots) salaries are but a drop in the ocean of the airline expenses”
Sure, at about R700 million a year?

“Thats it I will comment no more on the salaries, I am done trying to make you guys understand”
Wow, gee thanks for deigning to grace us with your most enlightened teachings, master. I am sure we will miss your youthful arrogant ignorance…..not.

Its been suggested that if SAA did cut salaries then the pilots would all flock elsewhere – I can’t see that happening. Where would they go? With no EU passports, no Green Cards, their options are to come to the Middle East, go to China or India – big moves for settled family men.

The facts are that SAA is a loss-making organization and that cuts have to be made at ALL levels, including the pilot pool. And the fact is that the SAA pilot pool has a lot of fat which can be safely trimmed from their salaries. And as I said earlier, if they don't like it, then there are plenty of other guys in SA who are competent enough, in many cases fly the same aircraft, to do their jobs at the cut price. Sorry if the truth hurts:cool:

driver airframe

27th Mar 2007, 12:21

SAA considers break-up, sale
27/03/2007 12:29

Johannesburg - The head of state-owned South African Airways said on Tuesday that he wants to break up the company and slash costs to help return it to profit, and may then sell some units.
Chief Executive Khaya Ngqula told a news briefing the airline would announce a restructuring plan in April, after sliding to a loss this financial year.

He said the company expects to lose more than R650m in the year to end March.

"We want to simplify the business by splitting up the company and creating clear profit targets for every unit," Ngqula said. "Some sections of the business might be privatised."

The company, which said it spent more than R20bn a year on staff perks and other discretionary items, said it would look at ways of cutting costs to help return it to profit.

SAA posted a 90% fall in profit last year as fuel costs rocketed and said it would only consider selling shares when it had reduced its debts.

South African privatisations have stalled over the past few years, with the government opting to use state entities to ramp up spending on infrastructure and help drive economic growth.

South Africa's public enterprises minister said in January an initial public offering of SAA could be years away and that the government had no plans to bail out the struggling airline.

springbok702

27th Mar 2007, 12:33

""What is fairly amusing is that Khaya chose to share his plan for saving costs and restructuring SAA at the ASATA Congress in Muldersdrift this past weekend. 300 people attended, only 1 arrived in a helicopter.""

Khaya's spokesperson ,Sarah Uys claims that he paid for it from his own pocket???

springbok702

27th Mar 2007, 14:10

702 news were going to run a story on how SAA is wanting to cut costs , retrench people etc while at the same time he is flying around Gauteng in a chopper going to various meetings. His spokesperson Sarah Uys claimed that he paid for the chopper himself.
Khaya then phone the head of news at 702 to tell him that there is no story to run as he paid for the chopper himself so the story was pulled.

putt for dough

27th Mar 2007, 14:47

Solid Rust Twotter

27th Mar 2007, 14:52

...paid for the chopper himself...

Wonder if the paper trail on that one's been verified? Dip me in syrup and call me sceptical...:hmm:

Gizajob, Khaya mate....:E :ok:

Q4NVS

27th Mar 2007, 14:55

Khaya then phone the head of news at 702 to tell him that there is no story to run as he paid for the chopper himself so the story was pulled.

Remember that Mr. KN is not all SAA's...

It might be well possible that he does pay for the Chopper rides himself, or through one of his many other Businesses or Directorships.

Only days ago it was reported that he holds in the region of 38 Directorships (because of his "on-demand" skill) :\

I don't think he would be foolish enough to have SAA pay for these, maybe one of the others...;)

The real question here should be, that if SAA was his ONLY responsibillity, would he not be able to spend more than 3% of his time actually running the business, without having to forever swing-wing off to another appointment?

On the other hand, imagine the "damage" if he had more time to spend on/at SAA :O

Fat Reggie

27th Mar 2007, 14:59

Pardon my interuption, but sick days are also mental health days and mental health days are just mini-vacations so why not get paid for the unused vacations days? Stay healthy, get paid for it....makes sense to me. Just pass the cost off to the damn customer like those corporate perks.

fluffyfan

27th Mar 2007, 21:06

Aaaaah JG1 was wondering when you would respond.
JG1 actually said that the SAA pilots salaries are completely out of line with the rest of the industry in South Africa
Maybe JG1, thats because SA salaries are completely out of line with the rest of the world, the SAAPA/SAA parity agreement takes a number of factors into account including the salaries of comair, Kenyan Airways, equivalent position in the market place and many many other factors, SAA is a fairly large airline flying all over the world, not a small 1 man operation with 2 767's flying to London and back, compare apples with apples my friend, or maybe you would like to compare SAA salaries with the Charter operators like Fedair?
Ever heard of market forces? Funny how all the airlines in SA except SAA pay relatively equal salaries, but SAA stands out like a sore thumb at double what all the other guys are getting. SAAPA did demand, they held the airline to ransom, and got their demands.
You actually have very little idea of how things work at SAA, as I have said time and time again, SAAPA negotiates with SAA on these things, SAA is the second oldest airline in the world, the pilot group has had a long time to organise themselves and negotiate the fair wage we receive today, the only thing protecting the pilots from management in the Union. SAAPA has never held anyone to ransom, they have conducted themselves within the law of South Africa, and it has cost Millions in legal proceedings, it has all been done by the book.
You need to talk to a few of my mates flying for some of the other airlines in SA, see if they think there salaries are fair.
Its been suggested that if SAA did cut salaries then the pilots would all flock elsewhere – I can’t see that happening. Where would they go? With no EU passports, no Green Cards, their options are to come to the Middle East, go to China or India – big moves for settled family men.
Oh dear what are we to do? where can highly experienced airline pilots get a job, especially nowdays. Oh and your statement "come to the Middle East" may have given you away, I hear the pilots are leaving in droves, all happy in the desert are we?
Now I am truly tired of discussing SAA salaries with you JG1, you obviously have a large chip on your shoulder and are horribly jealous........The old "I am not ok, therefore you are not ok scenario" do you do CRM at your airline/charter operation.............its enough now, you are starting to look like a tool.

DD777

27th Mar 2007, 22:58

Champagne Lover...
You wonder why you never get the middle finger back? Because we wouldn't waste our time with an imbicile like you!!!
As to why you are not in the national airline...your language skills were probably not sufficient to get a suitable covering letter in, nevermind a CV.
As for your irreverence for passed fellow aviators who perished in situations you have no idea, grasp or understanding of...you probaby never were taught that by your father...oops sorry sore point!
As for your simulator time or lack of it...who needs a simulator when you have to cover emergencies every day as part of the job because you are flying barely airworthy aircraft.
Your lack of breeding and jealousy is as obvious as your lack of understanding of the meaning of the title of this thread.
I hope when you need our help, you aren't too bitter and twisted to ask...because we are professional enough to help any fellow pilot who needs it, and will put our feelings of revulsion against people like you aside.
So I hope your life improves pal!

Fat Reggie

28th Mar 2007, 05:12

That was beautiful.....I love you man. (ahem...in a metaphorical kind of way).

bianchi

28th Mar 2007, 06:55

DD777

I could'nt agree more with Fat Reggies comment"that was beautifull" !!! Our dear champagne lover has clearly got a couple of minnor un re-solved childhood issues in his life,because for any FELLOW pilot( does'nt matter for which brand you are driving for, WE ARE ALL ONE) to make such nasty comments I think is just not acceptable. And to greet you "DAG P..S,that is just simply poor !!!!!!! Shame on you Champagne Lover is this really who you are ???
And yes I do fly for SAA, and just for the record I have flown for each and every other carrier in this country eccept Comair(and for some that has closed down aswell)and I have only came across-deal with bladdy good people.

Sorry!!OFF this thread topic-plse pardon me !!

Alternate Law

28th Mar 2007, 15:06

To get back to the topic - it has been mentioned - those with letters of appointment are on track to join, and if my sim roster is anything to go by, training is pretty much flat out for the forseeable future.

Not even the hatchet chaps of Seabury can stop those A343's from all coming home before July this year...

And please b#gger off about salaries - go fight on another thread.

bianchi

28th Mar 2007, 15:21

You hit the"nail"right on the"head"by saying: ''B#gger the salaries"and get back to the topic of this thread.
This is not a mud sligging contest about what a SAA pilot earns versas what they should earn according to the"non SAA-pilots" !!!

Afriviation

28th Mar 2007, 17:31

The issue of pilot Pay cannot be left out when referring to the financial viability of SAA. How does this company that consistently make a loss afford to pay such exorbitant salaries. I understand they vary from over 300k for a boy pilot, to well over a million bucks for a senior Captain.

It's certainly good for the pilots and they should not be bashed for that, WHo does not want to be there? However from a business perspective it certainly does not make sense.

If you look at the 2006 financials you will see that staff costs were R3bn, Pilots who make up 7% of the staff complement got away with R900 million (excluding benefits) which amounts to close to 30%

In the broader sense the total operating costs were around R19 Billion, and therefore pilot salaries were around 5% which is not an area that can be overlooked in a business sense.

The issue of parity is highly debatable. Can we as South Africans afford to compare our earnings with the first world and their stronger currencies??? If anyone can get it right, it's SAAPA. Congratulations SAAPA.

In any event that is a national airline for a country that's about to host the soccer world cup and we can expect some substantial Capital Injection from the Government soon.

Alternate Law

28th Mar 2007, 17:35

What part of get back to thread and b#gger the talk of salaries do you not understand?

Afriviation

28th Mar 2007, 18:10

A rumuor that is going around is that SAA's demise is intentional, Khaya, who is a prominent business person has been tasked to get SAA to the point that the government will have no option but to sell it at a ridiculous price. The likely bidders? One of them is Bidvest and khaya apparently is one of the BEE partners there.

Makes you wonder, why would a prominent businessman, who was estimated to be worth around R50 million during the time of his divorce take up a civil servant position.

DD777

28th Mar 2007, 18:55

I heard that the lease on the 738's was up halfway through the world cup and they have done nothing to renew them despite a firm nudge from the boys at Boeing to remeind them...Anyone heard that as well?

AfricanSkies

30th Mar 2007, 13:38

JG1 - sour grapes? :rolleyes:

Anti-Skid Inop

31st Mar 2007, 06:56

Just out of interest and keeping to the thread topic!!!!

Did anyone hear from SAA yesterday or does anyone know of any guys/girls called yesterday???

Seems like they mean what they say then about the recruitment situation.

CJ750

31st Mar 2007, 10:00

Frogman1484

31st Mar 2007, 11:26

I'm sorry but are the SAA guys attacking you or are you guys attacking the SAA guys.
:mad: They get paid what is in their contracts ...leave it at that. You get paid what you have signed for , you fly a different type of operation to the SAA guys, accept that you get paid more for flying to remote corners of the world...that is the way it works in the industry world wide...now stop bitching on what others are getting paid it is their pay NOT YOURS!!!!:= := :=

Shrike200

31st Mar 2007, 13:07

Personally, SAA pilot salaries (and indeed all of SAA's expenses of course) are of direct interest to me as a taxpayer actually. But I'm not going to attack anyone about that.

I'd rather pay less than more if it's all the same to you, taxwise that is. I don't get that much to start with, and seeing just under 30% disappear to tax is quite crippling. Any reduction on this sort of state expediture is good, and if it means seeing salaries at SAA reduced, you won't see me getting upset. It's nothing personal, I just don't enjoy paying tax unnecessarily.

Frogman1484

31st Mar 2007, 13:26

DD777

31st Mar 2007, 18:40

Anyone read any of CJ750's many replies? Just read some of them. Almost 75% of them have something negative about SAA in them...although I think there was one that asked something about if they were hiring this year! Me thinks you shouldn't apply though...you don't want to get any hours in the bunk anyway hey? "Mate";)
I'm sure KN would love to have you at SAA...you seem to fit the profile of all the goodfellas up in the management who know exactly what they are doing and doing such a good job at that! Go get it "mate"
Good for a laugh though!

Keep to the thread?

3rdBogey

31st Mar 2007, 18:56

Champagne Lover, after reading DD777's last comment, maybe you arn't too far wrong.:ok:

Shrike200

31st Mar 2007, 19:50

About the tax...crap mate!!! If it was about the tax you would be going on about the pay of the ministers that do nothing all day , the government corruption, the underpaid policeman and the lack of security that your tax should be paying...Mate I do not buy that this is about your tax dollar...what minute percentage of the government tax income is going towards the SAA pay ( the square root of f all).

Not having a go at you mate but even if SAA went private tomorrow do you think you are going to get a tax cut...I'm sure you know the answer to that

I would have a go at the politicians if this was an appropriate forum for it, but it's about aviation. And ultimately, any wasted tax money adds up. Sure, we wouldn't see an immediate tax cut if SAA was profitable - but that would be the aforementioned silly politicians at work, wouldn't it? And like I said, it all adds up...to claim that it's irrelevant just because it's just a drop in the bucket defeats the point.

Shrike200

31st Mar 2007, 20:09

Quoted from the other site:

The true cost of flying SAA

Jocelyn Newmarch

You are paying twice to fly SAA: once when you buy the ticket and once when you pay your taxes.The loss-making national carrier flew 7,2-million passengers last year, bringing in an average revenue of R2 234 per passenger. This year it is projecting a R650-milllion loss, or R92,85 per passenger, based on last year`s passenger numbers.

The carrier operates at a loss even though it had to be recapitalised by more than R6-bHlion in recent years, following disastrous adventures on the foreign-exchange markets.

Even more controversially, SAA is reportedly looking for a R4-billion bailout from government to put ambitious restracturing plans in place.
SAA recorded a net profit of R65-million last year, thanks to a change in accounting regulations for expired tickets.

SAA chief Khaya Ngqula`s restructuring plan aims to `simplify, right-size, re-skill and incentivise the business`, he told media at a briefing on Tuesday. Jobs, along with other costs, will be slashed. A new business plan for SAA is currently being drafted.

According to media reports, Ngqula also wants to see the company`s individual components run as separate and accountable divisions. The plan focuses on cost savings, simplifying the fleet and eliminating unprofitable routes, reviewing contracts with suppliers and what is euphemistically termed `labour concessions`.

Current belt-tightening includes a clampdown on unnecessary staff travel, the removal of non-essential company cellphones and revoking discretionary spending.

International consultants Sea-bury, who specialise in airline turnarounds, have been appointed to guide the airline. But one logical place to start would be right at the top. Ngqula holds 38 directorships and the average SAA board member sits on 20 boards, according to reports earlier this month.

Flame Lily FX

31st Mar 2007, 20:33

If Khaya paid for the chopper himself he must be on a serious
package! Now we all know that he is obviously being paid a
fortune, but does anybody know how much he is actually earning?
To charter a chopper for a work conference and pay for it
yourself, that puts you in another league

http://www.fin24.co.za/articles/companies/display_article.aspx?Nav=ns&lvl2=comp&ArticleID=1518-24_1991824 (http://www.fin24.co.za/articles/companies/display_article.aspx?Nav=ns&lvl2=comp&ArticleID=1518-24_1991824)

putt for dough

31st Mar 2007, 20:42

TA Flame Lily!

Now I am beginning to understand the big picture.

ps: all you lot whinging about the SAA pilots pay, they deserve
it. Why? Because they negotiated it, too bad and sorry for you
if you are being paid 1/10 what they are. You signed your contracts
and agreed on the T's and C's.
Now get over it and let life go on. :ouch:

Frogman1484

1st Apr 2007, 00:26

I would have a go at the politicians if this was an appropriate forum for it, but it's about aviation. And ultimately, any wasted tax money adds up. Sure, we wouldn't see an immediate tax cut if SAA was profitable - but that would be the aforementioned silly politicians at work, wouldn't it? And like I said, it all adds up...to claim that it's irrelevant just because it's just a drop in the bucket defeats the point.

Let me understand you would have a go at politicians if this was an appropriate site so instead you are having a go at where the politicians are spending your tax money. Last I looked this is an Aviation site!

Saa's package is bellow international standards for airline pilots flying that equipment internationally...end of story, so what if they are higher than Nation wide or Sax etc. Compare Apples with Apples!!

The problem is not their salary but the management of the airline. Sure privatize the beast and see if it floats, but that is a different story.

Shrike200

1st Apr 2007, 04:31

Perhaps you're misunderstanding me - your point seemed to be that SAA salaries are none of my business. I maintain that as a taxpayer, SAA's non-profitability is of interest to me. If salaries are looked at (eventually, obviously there are more pressing concerns) to return it to profitability, I would consider that logical. That is all. You also seemed to argue that because the billions of Rands of support given to SAA was a small amount when compared to the total expenditure of government, that it was irrrelevant. I disagree with that. Nonetheless, while I won't say that there's something so special about SAA pilots that they deserve such notably higher salaries than anybody else in the local industry (there have been one or two rather arrogant posts about that in this thread), that is what they have negotiated for, and what's in their contract, so I have no personal 'fairness' issues' with that. Like you say, we all signed our own contracts.

Frogman1484

1st Apr 2007, 04:43

Shrike200 If you take the political issues out of the equation, because a lot of people are using the tax thing as a quick scape goat to have a go at a Salary that is higher than his.

What a lot of people do not take into account is that flying internationally around the world does bring on more challenges and different issues than flying around South Africa where your infrastructure is to 1st world standards and fairly easy.

For years pilots operating in deep dark Africa were getting paid more due to the danger of flying there, so it also right that SAA pilots get paid more for the type of operations they are doing?

Scruffy

1st Apr 2007, 08:16

Type of operations? You mean being chauffeured in an airconditioned bus from your 5 star hotel to the airport to fly your airborne cinema to international first world airports with full facilities? Gotta be rough, that:{
Compared to the guys flying in darkest Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan etc its a bit tame. Keep a balanced perspective.

Frogman1484

1st Apr 2007, 09:01

Firstly which schedule operator is currently flying in Iraq Afghanistan?

Secondly when was the last time you de iced or did a Cat 3B approach, fly in to an airport like JFK, Heathrow, operated on a contaminated runway. When was the last time you were 1000nm from a suitable diversion field? When did you do a landing in a Typhoon?
When did you sit on board for 10-12 hours and then do a landing on the back of the clock?
I bet you don't even know what equipment you need to do RVSM! What about a GPS approach?

Please do not tell me that flying around SA is the same as flying to all corners of the world.

Q4NVS

1st Apr 2007, 10:02

Secondly when was the last time you de iced or did a Cat 3B approach, fly in to an airport like JFK, Heathrow, operated on a contaminated runway.

Yeah, last time I sat in the back as SLF during de-icing, I really got scared - dammit another 5mins of extra Sudoku time just added...:}

When was the last time you did a Non-Precision Approach in terrential rains with a 300 Hr Co-Pilot?

When was the last time you landed on a runway which has a "new" pothole on every arrival?

This whole "Mine is bigger/tougher than Yours" is getting a bit boring now!

Thought the original thread was about Recruitment at SAA..

:eek:

TooBadSoSad

1st Apr 2007, 11:16

Ladies and Gents,

The last time I flew with a 300 hour co-pilot in a war-torn third world country with de-mining units working next to the Apron in Angola or using an unofficial "company" GPS let-down through a sand storm in Afghanistan was about 10 years ago. Not to mention dodging huge Charlie Bravos between Maseru and JIA in a B1900C for Air Lesotho (No guessing who I worked for??) with no autopilot or flight director and with the occasional approach directly through an area of torrential downpour!!

Now I am working for SAA and feel that I am worth every cent I'm paid - and why? Because what I gained operating for the military, UN, Red Cross, charter operators and commuter airlines before SAA hired me, together with my three years of long range P3 flying and 4 years of short range P2 flying and now 3 years of long range P2 flying at SAA, has collectively given me a wealth of experience that allows me to sit and twiddle my thumbs for 6 or 7 or 8 hours on every long range flight because the day the sh:mad:t hits the fan, all that experience will come into play and allow me to make the best possible decision and react in the best possible way that all that previous experience has collectively primed me for.

So I sympathise with those, including many of my own friends, who fly for operators who do not pay as much as SAA does, but we all make our choices in life and if you are not working for SAA then that was either your choice or your destiny, but don't keep bashing away at SAA pilots when most of us have come from your ranks!
And sure times are changing at SAA - In fact, the SAA pilots union has, for over three years, offered management a reduction in entry level salaries because the union feels that the salaries are too high and the pay scales too flat, as well as due to the reduced entry level requirements for certain designated groups of pilots, but SAA management has yet to act on this for whatever reason they may have.

Now going back to the topic, there will be no hiring at SAA for the forseeable future. All pilots with letters of employment will still be taken but everyone else is on hold!! Unfortunately, it looks like SAA will have to shrink a bit, consolidate, and then possibly start expanding again.

Post of the Week Award:ok: - I'm not taking sides (honest) but this is the kind of bloke that this site is meant to serve. Now quit the whinging, get your head down (I don't care what colour you are) and get where he is. It doesn't mean you need to work for SAA - we all have our place in the sky and in the current qualification shortage we can all get where we're going.

Well done 2BSS - you made it. The rest of us are right behind you. 4HP

nugpot

1st Apr 2007, 15:19

I believe that collective agreements MUST be protected, so I have no wish for SAA pilots to be forced into paycuts.

That said:

TooBadSoSad said:
feel that I am worth every cent I'm paid

Don't talk twaddle. You are the reciprient of many years of collective bargaining at SAA. You had nothing to do with your current fortunate salary, because
The last time I flew ... sob story ... was about 10 years ago.

allow me to make the best possible decision and react in the best possible way that all that previous experience has collectively primed me for.

You are obviously still a first officer and will not really be taking those enormous decisions. Still, you earn as SFO10 more than any other captain in the country (outside SAA).

I have perused SAAPA's MOP agreement. It is a wonderful example of years of collective bargaining experience, but unfortunately does not take the realities of living in SA into account.

Like I said before in this thread. Don't let Seabury and SAA management take away what you have managed to collect over the decades, but don't try to justify your salaries to other pilots in this country. You can't. Especially not as an FO.

My contempories in SAA are now short range captains. They sacrificed and ate up years of cr@p as FO's and are now well-off. I took a different route in life and am very happy where I am now, so don't try to dismiss me as a wannabe.

TooBadSoSad

1st Apr 2007, 16:13

Nugpot, your comments show that you are either a single pilot operator or else have no idea what CRM is - when the sh:mad:t hits the fan in a multi crew environment then both crew members contribute to the successful resolution of the situation, not just the Captain!!

I also know of a few situations, both in SAA and outside, where the experienced first officers actions possibly saved the day, and in some cases definitely did.

As for
You had nothing to do with your current fortunate salary
I see you are quick to jump to conclusions when you know nothing about the author!!

and
You are obviously still a first officer and will not really be taking those enormous decisions. Still, you earn as SFO10 more than any other captain in the country (outside SAA).
if I had joined any other airline in the country I would have been a senior Captain at any one of them, so stop feeling sorry for yourself and get on with your life. Why do you even bother reading this thread if all you can do is take swipes at any SAA pilot who responds to it??

And don't even try to insinuate that you have any idea about the MOP formulation - otherwise we'd be very interested to get your take on PPP, POM, NDI and market movement methodology, not to mention where you see yourself benchmarked in the commercial sector using the HAY unit methodology?? :hmm:

I am sure it is your obvious inferiority complex that saw your application to SAA land up in the "do not hire" file!!

nugpot

1st Apr 2007, 16:36

I'll obviously have to draw pictures.
both crew members contribute to the successful resolution of the situation, not just the Captain

I agree, but you said:
allow me to make the best possible decision
You don't make the decisions - you might take part in them.

I see you are quick to jump to conclusions when you know nothing about the author!!

You said you have only been there 10 years. Most of these agreements go WAY back.

Why do you even bother reading this thread if all you can do is take swipes at any SAA pilot who responds to it??

Au contrare. I was only taking a swipe at you.

And don't even try to insinuate that you have any idea about the MOP formulation

Now you are guilty of not knowing the author. I happen to be well informed on all your agreements and can also throw around abbreviations and terms. Not that that would make me look clued up, for that I would need some sound arguments.......

I am sure it is your obvious inferiority complex that saw your application to SAA land up in the "do not hire" file!!

Must have been. ;)

Sir Osis of the river

1st Apr 2007, 18:14

Toobadhowsad,

I have to agree with Nugs on this one. I personally think the Kempton park flying club pays it's pilots too much and this is surely a burden on the company, (note the company, not the tax-payer). However, the unions have worked for many, many years to achieve these salaries and they will have to decided if it is in their interest to reduce them in order to save the company from a untimely demise, (al-a Swissair, Sabena, Varig to name but a few) or to force the company to go hat in hand to the government, (Read TAXPAYER), for yet ANOTHER bailout. Because it is the taxpayer who provides the bailout!!

I notice you said that the union has offered to reduce entry level salaries. What would this achieve when they are not hiring?? (No body at the entry level, nothing to reduce:hmm: .Surely trimming a little fat from the upper echelons would serve more purpose. This would have to apply to the oxygen thieves and jam stealers as well as airframe drivers.

Should SAA ever truly become a private, profit driven organisation,(;) I think there will be many unhappy campers in the pilot ranks. F/o and Cpts.

saducees

1st Apr 2007, 19:39

Strange! I know of one person who has been called to an interview and a sim ride in April

Alternative

1st Apr 2007, 21:12

[QUOTE][/
Strange! I know of one person who has been called to an interview and a sim ride in April
QUOTE]

Like always at SAA..."THE INTERVIEW PROCESS CONTINUES"

TooBadSoSad

1st Apr 2007, 21:36

GormanInkarnati, if you are glad not to be at SAA is that maybe because you happen to fly for a wholly owned subsidiary of SAA?? And don't worry about the SAA pilots - Government just injected R4 billion into SAA which should keep the airline afloat for at least 4 years based on the current loss situation, including being able to pay us SAA pilots our huge salaries which are totally undeserved!!

Avi8tor

2nd Apr 2007, 06:53

Think people have lost the plot some what.

SAA is a state controlled loss maker in a devolping african country.

Think the salaries should be comparied accordingly? Air Zim/Air Bots/Air Malawi etc

If the shareholders of United/Delta/American/Continental feel that their pilots and staff need to take a 40%, yes 40%, pay cut to stop the their airlines going broke, maybe time for the only shareholder of SAA, yes thats me the taxpayer, to do the same.

Time to cut the coat to fit the cloth friends. We gotta build roads, schools, hospital and get more police. Every cent wasted on keeping SAA in the air is money that is not spent on what the country, as a whole, needs.

Shape up or ship out. When SAA makes a REAL profit, the staff can think again.

TooBadSoSad

2nd Apr 2007, 07:29

Which shareholders of the 4 US airlines you mentioned? Are you totally ignorant or do you not realise that all 4 of those US airlines have recently been through a chapter 11 reorganisation, a legal option not available to SA companies where the US company gets to return aircraft and renegotiate leases, cancel pension plans and layoff employees almost at will, but subject to court approval.

Why does every half wit underpaid pilot in SA think that it is the SAA pilots who are the cause of the financial debacle at SAA. The cause is due to two related government dictates, EE and BEE!! EE has resulted in incompetent government officials putting incompetent management in place to run the airline (both white and non-white incompetent managers) who have absolutely no clue what a budget is or what good corporate governance is. They make major decisions on whims, not fact, and when they screw up they get shifted to other departments (ever seen that before?? ANC??).

Want examples: Try the SAA marketing department going about R100 bar over budget last year, not to mention sponsoring every useless sports team they could think of as well as any major sports event that Khaya and his cronies felt obligated to attend.

Then there is the MD11 freighter which was contracted by the total idiots running SAA cargo and which has lost about as much as the overspend in marketing.

Then there are the real geniuses who decided that SAA's passengers needed a first class experience in business class so they took out all the business class seats and replaced them with lie-flat first class type seats, but at the same time could only fit one of the new seats in business class for every two original business class seats they had removed, so there went just under half of SAA's business class revenue. That alone equates to almost R1 billion a year out the window.

Then you have BEE whereby every outsourced contract has to have ....??? - That's right!!....BEE components, so SAA lands up paying 30% more for everything and gets half the quality. Ask any SAA pilot when they were last issued with a uniform........some have not had a uniform issue in three years!

So if you really think that knocking R200 million off the SAA pilot wage bill is going to make any difference to SAA being profitable or a loss maker, think again.

Now all of you piss off and go and start a thread titled "I'm not an SAA pilot and I'm extremely jealous of their salaries and benefits so I'm going to give you my half-brained opinion as to why they should be paid less money"!! :{

Alternative

2nd Apr 2007, 07:36

Well Said TooBadSoSad.....

putt for dough

2nd Apr 2007, 08:12

Gotta Love that response from TooBadSoSad :} :} :}

symbol

2nd Apr 2007, 09:48

I’d like to offer my opinion to all the SAA salary bashers who have taken the trouble to voice their heartfelt emotions on this thread. Perhaps I can provide a positive angle on a rather negative subject. SAA has set the salary benchmark for airline pilots in this country for the past few years, and everyone else down the line will follow – good or bad! SAA is the number 1 choice for any pilot in South Africa. Why - because the pilots are the best paid, and fly the latest equipment. There are only a certain number of positions available and, as in any competitive environment, only the top performers are selected. Even the guys/gals who fall into their respective population groups are the top performers respectfully. Unfortunately, this means not everyone can be selected. To those who managed to get in to SAA, fantastic, well done! If you’re a white male and you got into the company, you’re the very best of what the market has to offer. If you didn’t get into SAA, there is enough room in our industry to accommodate the overflow, yes a very definite second choice for anyone honest enough to admit it, but sadly for less money, and on older equipment. That’s just the way life works, and no amount of winging is going to change that. Please stop badgering us because of your own misfortunes, and be proactive about your own careers if you’re not happy. If you’re a senior captain in a competitor airline, negotiate parity with us, after all you do the job just as well as we do. If you’re a youngster with ambitions to get into SAA, start by not listening to all the negativities around race and colour, and focus on achieving your objective. With a bit of self-belief you’ll surprise yourself. These are turbulent times we are facing at SAA, but I have no doubt that once the dust has settled, expansion will be on the cards. To my disgruntled colleagues in the South African industry, I wish you all the best in the careers you have chosen. To the contented others, enjoy this wonderful career which has chosen you. Happy landings.:ok:

Avi8tor

2nd Apr 2007, 11:17

SAA doesnt need bankruptcy protection as in Chatper 11, cause I just give it more money. I wonder what the response here would be if at the end of the month SAA didnt have money to pay salaries?

Having been in both union and management, I can tell that most airlines DO NOT look at SAA pay scales as a benchmark, they are simply considered absurd as a comparison.

Face facts, the airline is approaching broke!!! The silly part is COMAIR etc pays company tax to keep SAA afloat. And rememmber COMAIR a public company.

It shocks me that the response to the fact that SAA is a great big hole that I throw money into, is that its about jealousy!! Kinda childish response guys. We are all here to make money and a better life for all.

I am amazed that some people seem to think that 'cause they work for the state that there is no reason to make a profit. In fact to the point they seem to think they have some god given right. SAA has never been profitable, so to blame BEE for the current mess is silly. In fact most of SAA management has been white.

SAA has burned over R12 billion in the last few yrs. This has come out of my pocket.

Remember the fat salaries paid to the mostly under worked staff at SAA cost EVERYBODY in South Africa. Please note, this is not only aimed at the flight deck. Know a few people that work in other sections of SAA, the money is crazy by any standards.

I have repeatedly said the pay cuts and retrenchments must apply to all the staff. SAA needs to right size itself. If it cant, go broke.

Take the pain now, privatise the state controlled airlines and let the market play out. Sure there will be pain for all short term, but at the end, we will all end up with a healthy industry.

I.R.PIRATE

2nd Apr 2007, 11:40

Having sat and once more read through this whole thread, a glaring truth stands out way above the rest as a point of concern.

First remember that I am not an airline pilot, therefore falling into the sub-human category. SO - I have no vested interest in any side of this thread.

The underlying truth of the matter here is that it seems SAA drivers consider themselves as being 'better' than other drivers. A 10000 hour commander, whether it be SAA,Comair, Nationwide doesnt matter. You are a 10000 hour commander. You are not better because you work for SAA, you just got the opportunity when the company needed to hire pilots.

The biggest problem here is the perception that earning more money than the guy next to you, makes you a better pilot/person. Codswallop. You remain a mortal being, who will fail to get it up one day, who will too, forget his children's names and end up dead and buried in the same soil as your counterparts, and decomposed with the help of the same organisms. you are not earning what the company feels is your personal worth, you are being paid the company standard. Working for a large company, earning a large salary, is no reflection on you as an individual. The guy next to you is being paid the same, regardless of his colour, creed, or "good piloting skills".

The sooner a man values others for their personal worth, that cannot be meanured by bank balances, sports cars or which decade your equipment was manufacured, the sooner little bickering matches like this can be solved without having to resort to petty name calling, panty wetting and general unfound arrogance.

When you are lying there in the ground, I promise you that the worms are not going to choose an SAA corpse over any other. We are all just humans, that might work for different entities, but trust me here, the employer dont make the man.

Sir Osis of the river

2nd Apr 2007, 12:29

Toobadhowsad,

Must say, with all the experience you gained to allow you to "twiddle your thumbs", keeping your cool under pressure and measured response were deffinitely not on the list. You lost all credibility by rising to the bait and telling fellow aviators to "P@#s off".:=

Back to the topic: Does anybody have a reasonable idea when SAA will start recruiting again?:)

TooBadSoSad

2nd Apr 2007, 12:55

Sir O 'sis',

There was no intent to offer a measured response. I don't mince my words and did not feel that tact was part of the equation of getting the point across to you and your wannabees. It seems that an in-your-face approach is all that works for the SAA pilot bashers. And I was not telling my fellow aviators to p:mad:s off, just you and your mates. I have respect for my fellow aviators, including my many friends who fly for operators other than SAA!!

And back to the topic of SAA hiring, seeing as you missed that at the end of one of my previous posts, there will be no hiring for the forseeable future except for possibly those who have already received letters of appointment. SAA has not even put out the bi-annual CAT bid for the pilots because they have no idea what the fleet complement or requirements will be for July onwards. Until the Seabury consultants finalise the proposed 18 month business plan for reorganising SAA, plus the SAA board having to vote on it towards the end of the 3rd week of April, nobody at flight ops will have any idea if more pilots are needed.

Post a new thread around April 24th, 25th or thereabouts and I'll let you Pruners in on the gaff!!

Sir Osis of the river

2nd Apr 2007, 16:57

Chill Boet,

1. Not a wannabee. (Maybe once, not for a long time.I passed the walk on water test before you even joined your previous company. RA??)

2.I Don't begrudge you your salary. I earn more than you do and I also fly long haul a/c. including ETOPS across the North Atlantic.

3. Just an illustration that SAA need to shape up or ship out. Their kind of extravagent waste is NOT sustainable.

4. We used to have great fun together on NXX between MSU-JNB, even in the thunderstorms. (Remember when flying was FUN!) JA, I was there....

Don't take it personally, you are not responsible for the hole SAA has dug it'self.

Safe Flying

PS: I will now move to The SAA "BAS" fishing thread. :D

Alternate Law

3rd Apr 2007, 08:25

Seeing as this thread title is obviously code named "SAA salaries", for what it's worth...

SAA pilots are also tax payers, and do get pissed off about the R283 odd million that "slipped through the cracks" - of which I don't see the rest of the affronted tax payers on this thread taking a righteous stand about. Rumour has it that Seabury are looking at about R1.7 billion that should be around according to the in-depth examination of the financials, but apparantly seems to be awol.

And take a look at http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airlinepilotpay/ to figure out your own true worth....

TooBadSoSad

3rd Apr 2007, 17:00

Sir Osis, are your initials CR? Flying for Etihad?

Avi8tor

7th Apr 2007, 16:15

Hey Alternate Law, willflyforfood makes intersting reading.

Trust me, us tax payers want EVERYBODY's salary reviewed. Said before, this is NOT aimed at pilots only. And where ppl have had their hands in the cookie jar, sling there as:mad:s into jail!!!

Shrike200

8th Apr 2007, 03:53

Hey, I was just thinking - is it a coincidence that the SAA buildings are so close to those casino's?? :E Better check if some of those manager types are heading there on the sly..... :}

putt for dough

8th Apr 2007, 08:01

Passengers to feel SAA cuts
07/04/2007 21:40 - (SA)

Johannesburg - South African Airways (SAA) could stop serving in flight meals and cut back on cabin crew under a R2.7bn cost-cutting proposal up for approval by its board next month, the Sunday Times has reported.

According to the newspaper, the government this week gave a R1.3bn cash injection to SAA, which was expected to post a loss of over R652m for 2006.

The planning group which compiled the proposal reportedly estimated that the national carrier could save R171m by not serving food on domestic economy flights and rationalising the meal options in business class.

It predicted savings of, among others, R287m from reviewing sponsorships and marketing; R60m by using fewer attendants on flights; and R80m from scrapping timetables, in-house magazines, entertainment guides and wine lists.

It suggested that unprofitable routes be suspended; that plans to buy aircraft, office furniture and flower arrangements be shelved; and that certain international offices be closed.

SAA has warned of up to 1 000 retrenchments.

The SA Transport and Allied Workers' Union has threatened industrial action unless it is included in the restructuring process.

Q4NVS

8th Apr 2007, 10:08

Having heard the tiresome "Bun Fights" about Taxpayers rights and not, I thought the detail below would put everything into perspective.

Thereafter it is up to each individual (SAA and non SAA) to make his/her own assumptions with regards to "who" pays for what at SAA.

(Note: I chose not to contribute this to the SAA Basher Thread)

SARS Income during 2006-2007 Financials (paid to date): R 493bn
PAYE Contributions to R 493bn total: R140bn (28.39%)

Company Contributors: 1 Million Companies
Self Employed Individuals: 350 000 People
PAYE Contributors: 6 Million People

Assumptions made (for Statistical purposes):
SAA Bailout at average of R 3.5bn per Financial Year
All PAYE Contributors footing an equal share of the Bailout (I know this is Theoretical)

PAYE Individual Contribution to SAA yearly Bailout: R 165.61

:E

I.R.PIRATE

8th Apr 2007, 15:57

Yes very true.:ok:

...but its not quite that simple.

ByAirMail

9th Apr 2007, 04:18

PAYE Individual Contribution to SAA yearly Bailout: R 165.61

I would rather see my R165.61 build a hospital or school

madherb

9th Apr 2007, 10:19

As opposed to funding a new tire for someones Porsche:E

R165.61 would fund about 10% of one tyre for the Porsche............

I.R.PIRATE

9th Apr 2007, 11:24

although I heard your ma se porche is a whole lot cheaper...:E

Avi8tor

9th Apr 2007, 14:10

I think SAA carries around 7 mill pax, so if I gave R190 to each passenger and told them to go fly somewhere else i would be better off? That is kinda scary math.

Or gave a subsidy to the other airlines to the same value ie: Link about R160 mill. SAX nealy R200 mill. Not sure what the pax figures for the other airlines are, but man, I am sure that would drive salaries up.

Dont forget SAA got R4 bill last yr.

bianchi

9th Apr 2007, 16:08

Avi8tor,

Stop being so negative,you make yourself very unhappy chap!!

Frogman1484

9th Apr 2007, 23:38

Only 165 rand, I think we should be paying twice as much, that way I can upgrade my golf membership to include weekends...come on guys lets all join the gravy train before the money the government steals the lot.

Once the money to SAA stops flowing all you will see is no new schools and hospitals but new BMW 4x4 for the politicians.

Beta Light

10th Apr 2007, 02:25

Let me see if I got this right.
We will cut the service but keep the same price structure?
So for the same money I can fly Comair / Nationwide AND get a meal, magazine etc. (and helpful flight attendants).
Or for the same service I can fly CHEAPER ( and stil get helpful flight attendants) on One Time or Kulula…
Don’t need to pay a consultant to see where my money will go.
R.I.P. S.A.A.

unmanned

10th Apr 2007, 06:05

What is so scary to me is that the aviation industry as a whole is going from strength to strength. All areas are just booming. Why with so much government funding is there such a contradiction at SAA? It can only mean absolute squander in all departments. A few other airlines in SA have boasted best results in highly competitive markets this last year!!! Go figure:confused:

hiflyerz

10th Apr 2007, 06:56

Well said TooBadSoSad.........it all boils down to 'sour grapes'!!

Shrike200

10th Apr 2007, 13:36

.........it all boils down to 'sour grapes'!!

Yes, that must be it - you got it in one! And incredibly, nobody else thought of that obviously completely-true-for-all-cases fact either!

{Bites tongue instead of typing out full intended reply detailing the gross failures of both logic, and indeed even eyesight, in this case}

{sigh} :rolleyes:

I suppose if you guys keep repeating that often enough, one day you'll make it true for all cases.... :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: Just a question, did you even read this thread through?

Q4NVS

10th Apr 2007, 15:36

So for the same money I can fly Comair / Nationwide AND get a meal, magazine etc.

Yes, you can get a meal on Nationwide...

In fact, since the 17th January 2007 you can even get a Sandwich on a Nationwide Economy Class ticket - Just pass your R20 to the Flight Attendant and enjoy your Sandwich. :oh:

:E

Beta Light

10th Apr 2007, 16:21

Thank you for helping me there Q4NVS. Last time I flew Nationwide, about 5 years ago, they served very good meals. So how would Nationwide price compare?
I see the spin doctors got to you Hi – Flyer....
I guess no one as blind as he who don’t want to see…..:cool:

777SandMan

13th Apr 2007, 04:59

Like most of the proud North American airlines that have gone "under", we can blame SAAPA with their extravagant pay demands for a lot of SAA's problems!!! Their attitude has always been " PROBLEMS, WHAT PROBLEMS - JUST INCREASE MY FAT SALARY AND THE PROBLEMS WILL GO AWAY!!":\

Avi8tor

13th Apr 2007, 06:59

Sadly 'the increase my fat salary' attitude is not only a pilot problem at SAA. Tend to think that its a top to bottom problem.

Run it like a business!!!!

JetNut

13th Apr 2007, 16:27

777Sandman, pray tell, then why did you join Emirates? Definitely not for the money right , (oh, yes, I forgot. You coudn't get into SAA because of affirmative action).

asianeagle

14th Apr 2007, 03:52

JETNUT sounds like this is a case of I got in you didnt - nananananaaaa:p

does this mean you are one of those walk on water arrangant types?
777sandman probably saw the light looong before you did. I wonder who is more nervouse about keeping his job right now.:uhoh:

Frogman1484

14th Apr 2007, 05:24

what a waist of space this thread has now become, you guys sound like 5 year olds!!! You should all grow up, then you might realize that SA aviation is on the down hill, where it is booming all over the world, in SA the conditions are getting worst from one airline to the other. With the current shortage of crews world wide you should all be getting fat salaries not moaning about SAA's pay package. Frankly at the rate of pay at Nation wide, there are cabin crew at other airlines that get paid more, there are airlines in 3rd world airlines that are flying better equipment. Brand new airports in Asia that are 10 times bigger than JNB with more growth potential.

ByAirMail

14th Apr 2007, 11:17

Agree on all points Frogman, and Jetnut, before going of at 777 Sandman, you did an awful lot of enquiry into QR on a previous thread. Made it no secret that you are seriously considering the option! So why the loyalty now? Maybe got knocked backed??

Tongue in cheek:
Asian eagle I agree “JETNUT sounds like this is a case of I got in you didnt – nananananaaaa” or Jetnut is female, and should wait a couple of days before posting ( would explain why she had a couple of mood swings while posting within a couple of minutes on various threads, and also why she don’t see Affirmative Action as a stumbling block )

JetNut

14th Apr 2007, 18:59

ByAirMail...yes I've been offered many jobs all over the world, and everytime I research it further it only makes me appreciate the state of affairs we as pilots enjoy in South Africa. At the end of the day we have basic human needs and one can't only consider flying hi-tech machinery in the equation, look at the external environment as well.

Thats why it tends to irritate me when I read postings by narrow minded individuals who have no clue about the bigger picture, living their simple lives in a tiny cocoon; yet, have the audacity to attempt an opinion on matters far beyond their grasp.

If you don't like being in a certain environment/situation/country, then do something about it, remove yourself from the negativity (instead of whinging/bitching/moaning)...internal locus of control.

What happens to pilots or any other employee for that matter, in countries with inferior labour laws, makes even flying a 172 in the Kruger National park seem attractive.... (and I'm not saying that because its the middle of the month either!)

journeyman

15th Apr 2007, 15:58

Hey J-Nut,

Not normally one to get involved, but being totally exasperated by your utter ignoramousness, I feel compelled to respond.

Let's disect your argument: "no clue about the bigger picture - living in a cocoon", or words to that effect. Would that be the same cocoon that shields you from horrific crime statistics, rampant HIV rates, corruption on a biblical scale, gross public mismanagement, political uncertainty (or political inevitability) and socialist levels of taxation (but without the social benefits)? I hope I'm not being too audacious...

You might be enjoying your cushy existance at present, but believe me, when the powers-that-be are through with you (after an expensive consultation), there is going to be much grinding of teeth and eroding of terms and conditions. You are going to give and they are going to take - it is the only hope for SAA's survival. And if you think for an instant that our flowery constitution and "labour laws" are going to protect you, you in in for a very rude awakening.

You boys are in dire straits - best you get used to working for a living. I suppose its hard to read the writing on the wall when your back is up against it...:ouch:

qwerty1234567890

16th Apr 2007, 08:26

Was reading News24 this morning: http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2091514,00.html

Second is Khaya Nqulu of South African Airways with R6 850 000 which includes a bonus of R1.85m.

And that for a loss-making airline! Ouch! :} :} :}

Frogman1484

16th Apr 2007, 11:39

Toobadtoosad, Can you please enlighten me on which field SAA comes in hands down with EK, and CX...time to command? Salary package? 3 crew across the pond...please let me know what you are talking about...maybe you are referring to the stuff that goes missing from your flight bag while you are having your rest.

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

TooBadSoSad

16th Apr 2007, 12:44

Frogman, it shows how sad your life is when time to command and money is all that drives you.

Time to command is only important when you want to leave your current carrier, not when you are happy with where you are. Fact is, SAAPA would prefer to have pilots leaving SAA for other airlines, but these days nobody is leaving!! Why?? Because our pay is excellent, our benefits are excellent, we fly with pilots we can relate to and socialise with and most of all, we live in South Africa, a country we love, even with all the crime and other BS.

If you are happy working for Arabs or Chinese then good for you, but I am not. Quality of life is far more important to me than dragging my family off to a desert because of an early command and big bucks. And speaking of big bucks, I just went on holiday with some ex-SAA Emirates Captains and, with your 34% inflation, I don't quite qualify your income as big bucks, as they admitted!!

Fact is, when you take leave you bugger off to a country other than your domicile.............when we take leave we either stay home or visit other parts of the country we live in. So who has the screwed up priorities???:ouch:

Answer this: Are you going to retire where you currently work or in another country? Because I am already living my retirement here right in good 'ol SA!!!

journeyman

16th Apr 2007, 12:49

Too Bad,
It's obvious that you are very content at SAA and that's great - why leave for something inferior?

It might be worth noting however, that other airlines with extremely strong union and legislative protection such as United, Delta, American, Northwest, US Airways, Alitalia and Swiss either took deep paycuts or lost massive amounts of pension money - not to mention jobcuts as well. Ask a Quantas F/O how long it takes to upgrade these days and you'll find the subject changing very quickly.

Point is, if it can happen to these carriers, what makes SAA immune to cutbacks?

We've also all heard that old chesnut about how productive SAA flight ops is when justifying T&C's, but that's a bit like saying you were only a waiter on the Titanic and that you cannot be held responsible for hitting the iceberg. True. But that doesn't mean you're not going down with the ship...

Frogman1484

16th Apr 2007, 15:50

Too Bad... before you shoot such a broad statement I think you should stop and think that not everyone sees SA through the same rose glasses. To make some facts straight, I do live where I want to retire...Australia! At 3% inflation , I'm still earning the bucks and plus I can go on holiday anywhere in Australia and not worry if my BM is going to get stolen...So yes my quality of life is better than you think, so please do not make a statement saying that SAA is the best...that is the reason why the rest of the non SAA pilots hate you guys...you come across as being very arrogant and ignorant on the other pilots conditions.
If you are happy at SAA thats great, but trust me SAA is not the best job out there by any means of the imagination, and SA is most definatly not in the top places to live!

JetNut

16th Apr 2007, 17:20

To all the cynics, prophets of doom, individuals with perpetual chips on their shoulders and not forgetting frogman and crew.....

I reject your reality and substitute it for my own :}

JetNut

16th Apr 2007, 18:13

A lesson in perception:

Perceptions are created from beliefs. Beliefs are formed throughout a person's life based on their education, background, and knowledge, steered by their personality traits. For example, if people in a dark room are looking at a round object lit by a beam of light, some see only a crescent, others a half-moon, some only darkness, whilst some may even see the full lit object.

When you understand the fact that the reality of life is percieved by each person differently, it's easy to think, or free your mind to accept other points of view without frustrating yourself or sounding like an utter moron.

The basic bulding blocks of perception, belief; can be changed/updated/evolved, only by education, coupled with a desire to change. That's probably why many people outside of South Africa don't understand how people with such strong cultural diversity can actually survive so successfully. The one's who have created barriers and thrive on a resistance to change will eventually leave (or have left, in a crazed effort to replicate their past). By latching on to negativity (crime, HIV, etc.), these people subconsciously create reasons to substantiate and verify their false perceptions of reality, (although, yes I agree that these are very real problems in SA, but then if we didn't have these issues, we'd be living in a Utopia). These people eventually become satisfied with the conclusions they draw, only by rejecting alternative sources of information.

History has proved that skewed realities created by perceptions based on faulty beliefs can be detrimental (slavery, holocaust, apartheid, etc, etc.)

The defence rests, your honour.

George Tower

17th Apr 2007, 00:03

Jet nut
You should be a politician.....I have read your post and find it devoid of conviction save for the fact that you appear you to want to patronise us from a dizzy height. I don't reject everything you say because there is some merit in it but it smacks of post-modern mumbo-jumbo that's constantly being thrown at us by media etc.

I guess in the middle of what you are trying to say - you're saying that SA is a good place - a success story if you will. I agree SA is a great place from people, to climate to geography, and more importantly there are some massive achievements of the last few years particularly the economy.

But to many South African's crime is a daily reality, HIV/AIDS policy is an unmitiagted disaster. Does that make me have a false perception of reality? Or can I call a spade a spade?

I thought we were meant to be discussing SAA - my view is that a very successful blue print for SAA has already been established 20+ years ago when Lord King took over BA under the Thatcher government and it was privatised in 1987, the IPO being over-subscribed several times.

The problem we have in SA is that the govt don't want to take tough decisions and sort SAA out. They have stated policies of privatisation but because the govt contains elements of COSATU and the bloody Communists :ugh: policy in this area will be weak and watered down....hence SAA rumbles on in the same old loss making way, with leadership that has no one to hold it to account, and which is effectively underwritten by taxpayers of SA.

Because SAA has no real pressure to deliver and effectively is considered to be above "the law" finanically - there is no moral imperative for them to take the steps necessary to create a good airline. Had say a private company made a R6bn hedging mistake they would have had to bear the consequences.....SAA got away scot free. This is unhealthy.

I'm reminded of a quite by the economist Adam Smith
It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our necessities but of their advantages. Nobody but a beggar chooses to depend chiefly upon the benevolence of their fellow-citizens.

journeyman

17th Apr 2007, 05:03

J-Nut,
Apart from the plagiarized Adam Savage quote and a chapter or two from your philosophy 101 textbook (how's UNISA these days?), I would agree with most of your post.

Right up until the point that you are on the receiving end of a high velocity lead package delivered by a gainfully employed illegal immigrant whilst exiting your secure complex in that shiny 3-Series Beemer.

Or am I creating a false perception? I guess we'll never know, seeing as there is a moratorium on published crime statistics. Sure, bad things happen the world over, but a least they are outraged/shamed/embarrassed enough to splash it all over their front pages and politicians/CEOs are actually held accountable for their (in)action. What a novel idea.

bianchi

17th Apr 2007, 10:20

"my suitecase is packed"

.....wanna come with pleeeeeease !!! Will carry your suitecase for you !!!!

fireforce

17th Apr 2007, 12:56

Hello boys!

Looks like you lads have a lot of issues.

A couple of observations if I may..

1. My understanding (very limited), is that SAA pilot packages are where they are today, because international salary benchmarks were part of the negotiation process.

2. The helicopter industry lost a lot of experience to the more lucrative national carrier, which had a positive effect on the back-pockets of the remaining chopper pilots.

3. At the moment, many South African chopper pilots are being lured internationally, for tax free packages that are putting even more pressure on local operators to raise their game.

No strikes or unions, just good old fashioned supply & demand.

As with any other business, attempts by either the employer or the employee to interfere with this process usually ends in tears.

I'm thinking that perhaps the pilots have the upper hand, but I'm holding off on my new Ferrari for the time being.

:ok: