Churchill and uniforms

[brickhistory]

Hopefully, this will fit within the pprune boundaries, and to help tie to aviation, I'll mention the RAF uniform, but I am wondering if anyone here can shed light on Churchill's wearing of various uniforms during WWII?

Was it 'kosher?' (I know, no one would have told him to stop....)
Why did he do it?


I am not insulting the man or his memory, just the odd thought that popped in while doing some reading.

[Gainesy]

Brick, I think that he was an Honorary Air Commodore of one of the Royal Auxiliary Air Force Squadrons, which gave him a somewhat tenuous link, but how he got away with wearing Wings...dunno.
Best wait for Archimedes to come along, he's a dab hand at RAF traditions, protocol and such.

[forget]

Winston Churchill was created an honourary Air Commodore of a squadron in Scotland during World War II, and wore his RAF uniform on many notable occasions during the war (such as his visit to North Africa and a state visit to meet Josef Stalin)

Wings??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_Royal_Air_Force_members

[Davaar]

He got away with the "wings" because he had taken flying training in the early days of aviation. I believe it was when he was First Lord of the Admiralty in WWI. I can't remember now where I read all this, but he was prevailed on to give it up in light of his senior ministerial office, and because his instructor, an officer of the RN, wrote himself off in a crash.

Incidentally, I was told many years ago by a senior officer that Churchill was the man who actually created "wings". As told to me, he had just got back from a trip to France, where he had bought a Napoleonic "Eagle" brooch as a gift for Mrs Churchill. He was in discussion with Captain Murray Sueter, and the topic of a special badge for pilots came up. "Something like this"? he said, and held the eagle against Sueter's sleeve. And so it befell.

[MReyn24050]

Extract from the The Churchill Society
"He was transferred by the Prime Minister to the Admiralty in October 1911, and when the Germans sent a gunboat to Agadir, (a Moroccan port to which France had claims), Churchill became convinced that in any major Franco-German conflict, Britain would have to ally herself with France. Time revealed this to be inspired political perception and foresight and enabled Churchill to campaign successfully in the Cabinet for the largest naval expenditure in British history.
He found the Admiralty riven with terrible feuding and set about the immediate total reform of the entire Admiralty and in the process brought the Navy to a state of instant readiness. He even learned to fly, much to the horror and anxiety of his young wife."
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/WSCFlyer.jpg
Twenty-nine years after he made his first solo flight, Prime Minister Winston Churchill, honorary Air Commodore, won his R.A.F. wings. Said the citation: the Prime Minister's part in the creation of the R.A.F., his "30,000 miles of flying on duty during the present war," his work as Minister of Defense "constitute unique qualifications."

Sir Winston Churchill was an Honorary Air Commodore of No. 615 squadron

[teeteringhead]

"Special consideration" by the Air Force Board also allowed HM King George V to wear wings on RAF uniform. ISTR that they were the only 2 people ever authorised in an "extra-regulatory" manner.

George VI qualified "properly", and in fact got married (as Duke of York) in RAF Ceremonial Dress, a "rig" that didn't survive WWII.

[brickhistory]

Very informative, thank you all.
Have read several biographies on Churchill and knew about the flight lessons, but the rest was all new information.

[Archimedes]

I think Churchill gave up flying on the orders of Clemmie - in one of Sir Martin Gilbert's volumes there's a letter from WSC in which he rather sheepisly agrees to do what he's told and stop flying. There are times when I rather think that Hitler was fortunate that it was Mr Churchill who was PM rather than Mrs C....

He was also a former 11th Hussars officer, and having commanded a battalion on the western front, quibbles about him wearing army uniform were non-existant. I think he also wore RN uniform on occasions - whether this was completely 'legitimate' or not I'm not certain, but neither George VI or the RN seemed to mind.

[Davaar]

Let me demur, Archimedes, on the RN uniform. WSC did wear a creation, often seen in photographs, of his own design I believe, fundamentally an RN officer's reefer without insignia of rank. The cap, too, appears to have been a "reasonable facsimile" rather than pusser's issue. I do not recall ever seeing him shown as wearing an RN officer's cap badge. Maybe there is published authority one way or the other. I am pretty sure there must be, somewhere.

[MReyn24050]

Davaar wrote:- "Let me demur, Archimedes, on the RN uniform. WSC did wear a creation, often seen in photographs, of his own design I believe, fundamentally an RN officer's reefer without insignia of rank. The cap, too, appears to have been a "reasonable facsimile" rather than pusser's issue."
As Davaar stated Sir Winston did not wear the uniform of a Royal Navy Officer. It was in fact the uniform of the Royal Yacht Squadron.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/SirWinstonChurchillsNavalUniform.jpg

[MReyn24050]

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/SirWinstonsBust.jpg
This is a cold-cast resin bronze of Sir Winston Churchill in the captain's uniform of the Royal Yacht Squadron with navy blue reefer jacket. He habitually wore this very personal and entirely unofficial concoction when going abourd HM ships or visiting RN shore establishmets during World War II. This bust is modelled by Anthony Leonard for Heritage Sculptures. The wooden plinth is of oak removed from Havengore, during her restoration. Havengore was the former Port of London Authority launch that carried Churchill's coffin down the Thames after his State funeral in 1965.

[brickhistory]

I understand that he would wear whichever service's uniform that he was pleased with at the time, much to the consternation of the others who thought themselves out of favor for the moment.


Any truth or educated opinions to that?

[Prangster]

Sir W was percieved to be at best a hamfist of the first order. I recall reading somewhere that one particular arsey landing came about due to a 'misunderstanding' between student and instructor (Avro 504) if I think Instrutor 'Rather a case of falling between two stools sir'. :=

Winston, darkly, 'More like stalling between two fools' But yes he was persuaded to give up thank god.

[Davaar]

As a follow-up to Archimedes's post # 8 above on Churchill's right to wear army uniform, I seem to recall reading many years ago that Churchill was recommended for the VC at Omdurman or some such action, but it was killed by Kitchener, who could not stand him at any price. Can anyone confirm this? I believe his service in the trenches was as Lieut Col of a battalion of the Royal Scots, and that Sir Archibald Sinclair (later Minister for Air) was the colonel.

[G-CPTN]

An explanation (?) of WC's 'VC' :- http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=638
(well down towards the bottom, as VC is mentioned in several places . . . )

[doubledolphins]

As I recall the last proper "Navy Minister" was Keith Speed (The title of "First Lord of the Admiralty" had disapeared with the formation of the MoD.) in Thatcher's first government. He wore a Churchillian yachting rig too.

[windriver]

Churchill was always interested in both the art and potential of "flying" as an instrment of peace or war. Maybe he didn't qualify for his wings, but in the grand scheme of things he surely earned them.

http://www.content-delivery.co.uk/aviation/airfields/articles/Churchill.jpg

Churchill flying with an Auxilliary Squadron circa 1938

And topically, he wasn`t afraid to make a few bob selling his war stories to the press...

[MReyn24050]

windriver:-
And topically, he wasn`t afraid to make a few bob selling his war stories to the press...
However, how can one possibly compare Churchill's articles with what was recently published in the Sun?

[windriver]

However, how can one possibly compare Churchill's articles with what was recently published in the Sun?


One can`t. Apples and pears... it was a 'throw away' comment irrelevant to the thread and best left unposted.

[ansonmk1]

Just as a slight diversion, but towards a gong of sorts, try reading "River War" by Sir W. and for that matter, "Malakand Field Force" as well. Both are freely downloadable at www.gutenburg.org from the main page. There is also another available there, on the South African War about his efforts from Ladysmith to Pretoria via Mafeking. There's no doubt that he did his bit. "VC" I dont I dont think so!

[Schiller]

Churchill had quite a few options when it came to what uniforms he was entitled to wear.
His first regiment was the 4th Hussars. On the North-West Frontier, however, he was attached to the 31st Punjab Infantry and in the Sudan to the 21st Lancers. In South Africa there were the Lancashire Hussars, and, after his escape from captivity, the South African Light Horse. In pre-1914 years he was in the Queen’s Own Oxfordshire Hussars (a yeomanry regiment), rising to the rank of Major and regularly attending, even when a senior minister, their summer camps. In France after his resignation from the Government in November 1915 he was attached to the 2nd Grenadier Guards before commanding a battalion of the Royal Scots Fusiliers. In the Second World War he frequently chose to wear the uniform of an RAF air commodore and he appeared at Yalta as a colonel of Hussars. For naval occasions he usually wore the outfit of an Elder Brother of Trinity House.
I’m pretty sure that he was never a member of the RYS, so the uniform above is almost certainly that of Trinity House. In those days, too, ministers had their court uniforms and Privy Councillors theirs (complete with sword!). He would also have had a uniform as the First Lord of the Admiralty, although whether he could continue wearing it after leaving that office I don’t know.

[cbegin1954]

Does anyone know where one might purchase either a Churchill Naval or RAF bust or both?

Sincerely,

Claude

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I believe I've read that he was a competant pilot, and had 198 flights. He was finally persuaded to give up due to currency problems and the risk factor. This wasn't his first instructor who'd died. He was learning in seaplanes also I believe - good on 'im.

[ICM]

Thanks to 'Options for Change,' RAF Germany ceased to exist as an independent RAF command on 31 March 1993, and the HQ reduced considerably in size as it became a Group HQ (2 Gp) within RAF Strike Command. This decision reduced the RAF officer population at JHQ Rheindahlen considerably and, as the RAF Officers' Mess building was the largest of the messes on the garrison, it was decided that it should become a joint RAF/Army mess. But how was it to be known? In the spirit of 'jointery,' the name 'Churchill Mess' was agreed upon. So far, so good - but with such a name, there would clearly have to be a picture of the great man near the entrance ..... but how attired? With a degree of urgency, the RAF cadre set about acquiring a suitable picture of him in RAF uniform, and was able to present that to the Mess - I think at the first Dining-In night - and in such circumstances that the picture had to be given pride of place!

And so it remained .... for just 3 years. HQ 2 Gp was wound-up on 31 March 1996, further reducing the RAF population, and the premises were taken-over by the NATO ARRC HQ, in effect becoming an Army mess. At that point, most of us left ..... and, I guess, so too did Churchill in RAF uniform. (And I'm happy to relate that the last Churchill Mess function was my retirement dinner.)

[David Layne]

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q137/DavidLayne/winston_churchill.gif