Airline JAA Logbook Entry

[diverine]

I am flying for an airline and getting mixed messages on logbook entry. What to put on the "IFR ACTUAL" column?
Do you put the duration of the flight under IFR ACTUAL or put the actual time you're on IMC?
Thanks,

[MrBernoulli]

As far as I am aware it should be when under IFR conditions and YOU are the pilot handling the aircraft (so you should not be logging the OTHER guys IF time).

And as for logging time in the bunk ..... well that is another story.

[CamelhAir]

put the actual time you're on IMC?

I think you might be better off concentrating on flying the aeroplane, rather than trying to record the time of every entry and exit from cloud!
If anything, I think the correct answer is as Mr Bernoulli says. That said, I'm not aware of many airline pilots who put anything on the right page of the book. If your flying an airliner, every flight will be IFR so who really cares about any time other than your total time.

[MrBernoulli]

CamelhAir,

I'll have to disagree with you there.

"If your flying an airliner, every flight will be IFR so who really cares about any time other than your total time." Not true. I fly airliners and before that I spent several years flying large military 4-jet tankers and transports. I have had flights in large airliners where we have never gone into cloud for the entire time of being airborne - and thats from Europe to the USA. Therefore, NONE of it was instrument flight in the technical sense of the logbook; none of it was done by 'sole reference to instruments'.

I may fly an instrument approach for just about every arrival but that does NOT mean I am instrument flying - I am merely using the instrument approach to sequence in with everybody else and line up with the runway, because all the other aircraft are doing likewise and ATC likes that way ..... as does my company. But I am not necessarily instrument flying. Get my drift?

[goldcup]

Mr B- Crossing the pond you most certainly were IFR. You may have had VMC, but you were under IFR.

Having said that, I have no idea if IF time is time in IFR or IMC.....

[MrBernoulli]

At no point did I use the term 'IFR'.

You make the classic mistake of confusing IMC and IFR. IFR is nothing more than a set of rules to ensure that the aircraft and crew have a minimum of equipment and skills to deal with the requirements of the airspace. It does NOT mean you are flying by sole reference to instruments, which is the whole point of the IF and Instrument Approach columns in a logbook - to prove skill in the art of instrument flying for continued retention of an instrument rating, or for the award of the same.

"Having said that, I have no idea if IF time is time in IFR or IMC....." Well, you holed yourself below the waterline there with that comment, didn't you? Hopefully you have gained from this little discussion.

[Clarence Oveur]

Well MrBernoulli, I don't suppose you have much use of a life jacket.......

[MrBernoulli]

And your point is......................?

[Clarence Oveur]

The natural buoyancy of an inflated ego would make a life jacket superfluous.

[diverine]

Getting back to the subject, the logbook column reads "IFR - Instrument Flying Rules", then divided into two parts "Actual" and "Hood".
As goldcup mentioned: "Mr B- Crossing the pond you most certainly were IFR. You may have had VMC, but you were under IFR."

When you're flying on an airliner you file an IFR flight plan. And you fly accorfding to those rules even when you are on VMC conditions...

Anyway, this was the question that's been bugging me for a while. I know perhaps it's not a big deal but wanted to ask/share...

Thx to all who replied!

[MrBernoulli]

diverine,

I am intrigued as I haven't come across a log book that uses the term IFR in its columns. Interesting. All my logbooks (several varieties, including computer based) have used the term IF. I've learned something.

However, I still believe that the point of logging 'IF' is to record useful practise in a required skill. To just rack up IFR hours because you are on an IFR flight plan is somewhat pointless - what does it prove? The fact that you asked the question makes me think that you also feel that it is the case. You fly for an airline, you have a professional license and the required IF rating so what do you have to gain (or lose?) by logging pointless IFR?

Consider - the makers of your logbook probably didn't realise just how much emphasis people might place on the term 'IFR'. I am sure that they MEANT flying by sole reference to instruments. Ultimately you should check with your licensing authority but I think you will find that it is 'instrument flying', not 'IFR'.


Clarence Oveur,

Your contribution, if it was any contribution at all, achieved zip. Absolute zip.

[diverine]

Thanks a lot for the clarification... You have a point there.... Having flown in the US in the past, my logbook never had a column "IFR" before... Converting to JAR reqmt's (lingo) will take time getting used to.

[outofsynch]

Logging IFR time is pointless. However logging IMC time does show some sort of currency/experience, which is what I understood that column to be for. Some countries (NZ? Aus?) require x hours in the last 90 days, or the like, to maintain IMC currency.

That said, I cant be bothered starting the stopwatch every time I enter cloud, so I just log 0.1hr per sector, which I reckon is pretty close, on European short haul. And it makes counting your sectors really easy!

[Condition lever]

I have to agree with outofsynch and MrB.

The intent of an "IFR Actual" column is to log the time spent IMC and not flying under IFR rules and procedures. As such when you enter cloud, and you are Pilot Flying (PF) for that sector, whether the AP is in or not you can log IFR Actual. Obviously a stopwatch does not enter the picture and a common sense estimate of the time is appropriate.

If you are flying for a major airline I am surprised you have not worked this out for yourself yet - perhaps an audit is in order!

[Sky Wave]

Here is what CAP407 (CAA’s Personal Flying Logbook) says about the Instrument Flying column.


The column headed “instrument flying” is provided in order that flight time during which the holder manipulated the flying controls solely by reference to instruments, either under actual or properly simulated instrument flight conditions may be recorded. The time spent in practices in a ground trainer eg a procedural trainer or flight simulator should NOT be recorded under “instrument flying”, but should be entered in the appropriate pages at the end of the log book.


From this I would agree with Mr B and others that say you can only record time when you are Pilot Flying and in actual or simulated IMC

[Fatter Bastard]

Oh dear, you people have way too much time on your hands. There are many more important things in life, for example martinis.

[BizJetJock]

SkyWave and Mr. B, I'm afraid you're showing your ages! CAP407 was discontinued some years ago, since it doesn't comply with JAR-FCL1. You can still buy them because some pilot shops still have stocks.
The requirements under JAR are listed at JAR-FCL 1.080 and are quite explicit. You must log IFR time. You may also log actual instrument time in the remarks column if you wish.
Whether there is any use in recording IFR versus actual IF is a totally different question which has been covered in many threads...

[MrBernoulli]

BizJetJock, at your behest, I have been to JAR-FCL 1.080 and found the following. But I don't have, and never have had, a CAP 407 logbook.

diverine, depending on your license issuing authority, make your own mind up (mine already is).

"(4) Pilot function:
(i) Pilot-in-command (including solo\\\\ slsolo, SPIC, PICUS time)
(ii) Co-pilot
(iii) Dual
(iv) Flight instructor / Flightexaminer
(v) A remarks column will be provided to give details of specific functions e.g. SPIC, PICUS, instrument flight time*, etc.
* A pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he
operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or
simulated instrument flight conditions.

(5) Operational conditions:
(i) Night
(ii) IFR"

Trust a Eurocrat to consider IFR important enough to have a coulmn of its own and consign IF to the remarks column. Explains the state of Eurpean 'unity' today - all window dressing and sod all substance.

But I thinks it is fair to say IF is IF, REAL Instrument Flying. Will I log IFR now? Will, I bollocks! I don't have to, my license isn't JAR.

[goldcup]

MrB

Thanks for clearing it up- pretty definitive.

Yours isn't an original Rhodesian licence is it?

[MrBernoulli]

"Yours isn't an original Rhodesian licence is it?" tinplatecup, I haven't a clue about what your saying.

I decided to check JAA to see if there was anything specific about the definition of IFR. JAA defer their definitions to EASA so I checked that - this is all there is in their definitions:

‘IFR conditions’ means weather conditions below the minimum for flight under visual flight rules.

‘IFR’ means instrument flight rules.


So why does one have to log IFR? Good grief ....... I'm not going there ......

[Sky Wave]

SkyWave and Mr. B, I'm afraid you're showing your ages!

But I'm just a wee nipper! well maybe that's an exaggeration but I'm not very old and I've only ever held a JAA licence.

It does however appear that I referenced an old source. I'm just starting in the airline world and have been searching for an answer to the IF question, and everyone you ask has a different opinion. I've searched all previous pprune threads and the posters can never agree. I should really have gone straight to JAA-FCL1 in the first place.

I will therefore elect to go with JAA-FCL 1.080 and await a training captain to tell me that I'm doing it wrong, however the way I read this it doesn't look like use of the remarks column is optional. Therefore should we be logging actual instrument time in the remarks column and IFR time in the operating conditions column?

(v) A remarks column will be provided to give details of specific functions e.g. SPIC, PICUS, instrument flight time*, etc.
* A pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he
operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or
simulated instrument flight conditions

The above does not state that it’s optional to record specific functions eg instrument time.

JAA-FCL 1.080 part (b) section (5) Doesn't really make sense anyway because it states that operating conditions should be recorded (i)Night, (ii)IFR, yet IFR is not an operating condition, it is a set of rules, IMC however is an operating condition as is night. I think I'm more confused than when I started.:ugh:

(5) Operational conditions:
(i) Night
(ii) IFR


Can airline pilots in the JAA world confirm that they log the full block to block time as IFR in the operating conditions column regardless of whether they are PF or PM? Do you guys n girls just not bother recording time that you are in actual IMC?

[Sky Wave]

Having read Mr B's last post and the JAA definition of IFR conditions, surely we should only be recording actual IMC time in the Operating Conditions Column?

(5) Operational conditions:
(i) Night
(ii) IFR

‘IFR conditions’ means weather conditions below the minimum for flight under visual flight rules

[BizJetJock]

It's all fairly academic anyway apart from the first couple of years of your career. Once you've got the ATPL issued there is nothing (in JAR or FAA lands) that actually hinges on time spent flying IF or IFR or in IMC. So I just leave my electronic logbook in its default setting of recording all flight time as IFR and in the last 10,000 hours nobody's asked about it.:confused:

[MrBernoulli]

Sky Wave,

I think you have pinpointed it with your last post - if the EASA definition of ‘IFR conditions’ is as it says it is, then it really should be an IF or IMC column, not IFR, in the JAR logbook. That then would make the recording of IF in the remarks column unnecessary.

Told you this Eurocrat bollocks is precisely that - BOLLOCKS!

[airbond]

I agree with MrBernoulli (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=13644) vbmenu_register("postmenu_3187725", true);

I operate under my JAA licence on the B737,and I only log the time IF when its my sector and I am manipulating the controls in IF conditions.
So in gereral terms I am always logging less than 50% of the total block time as IF.
The same applies when I am operating under my Australian licence flying in Australia.

There is really no point in logging all your block time as IF. Makes no sense at all.

[john_tullamarine]

.. really not worth getting excited over, chaps ... perhaps we can relax a tad ?

[Fatter Bastard]

Yeah I agree. Way too much sweat over this. Now if we were talking about how much vermouth to put in a Martini then it might be worth it...

[MrBernoulli]

4 fingers of Vermouth ........ and JAR logbook 'IFR' is a big load of cack! :rolleyes:

[Sauter]

Fatter Bastard, and Dear Chaps (that's right - about 85 % of you are British I'm afraid…It does explain the impeccable language, excellent humour, and unfortunately the insensible bickering on this site - only you Brits can do it…)

I must admit I especially loved Mr Clarence Oveur’s comment to Mr. Bernoulli -It was exquisitely amusing, you nailed the coffin there partner!!
A bit on the side, although very important (to my Norwegian standards at least...):

Sir Winston meant that it was enough for his bottle of Gin to be standing next to your Noilly-Prat in order to call it a Dry Martini.
Personally, I put in some Noilly-Prat, stir the glass vigorously, and then pour the Vermouth out again. The Bombay Sapphire then goes in and garnish with one Olive. Hopefully after that, you fellows can stop this meaningless discussion and continue to enjoy life.

Life’s in the aviation business is way too short to drink weak and poorly made Martinis.

Sauter (Norwegian Hedonist) :)