Instructing/Airline flying (FTL,s)

[StarTrek Manipulator]

Hi everyone,

I currently hold a JAA/ATPL and fly for a european airline. I also hold a valid FI/A rating and have a desire to start instructing PPL/CPL again. I wish to instruct in the UK, but am unclear as to wether Instructional flights count toward the 900 hours flight time limitation:confused: (although I have a feeling they do) and also wether Instruction (for no financial gain) constitutes a commercial flight? in essence is it possible for me to:

1) Instruct PPL/CPL
2) Instruct (no financial gain)
3) Fly privately

I am sure there are many Instructors who are also flying for Airlines at the same time,any help/advice will be much appreciated

many thanks in advance STM:O

[jamestkirk]

don't know the answer but great name.

[foxmoth]

You can do this but most companies will require you to get company permission to do so as it does count for days off/hours etc. this can also make it quite restrictive on availability during the summer -the time you most want to instruct.:(

[Sleeve Wing]

Some people used to use two separate logbooks !!!!!!!!!:oh:

Seriously though, "Recreational flying" is acceptable but "Flying for Hire or Reward" is often not.

As foxmoth so rightly says, have a word with your Company. :ok:

[VFE]

My understanding is that any instructing is carried out on the CPL and therefore places you under the 900hr/year ruling so I would check with your employer as to where they stand on you working under your CPL elsewhere. Even in the instructing world most FTO's forbid us to go off and instruct elsewhere on a temporary or weekend basis as most want their pound of flesh (900hrs) to themselves. My hunch is most airlines will feel the same unless you're with a good'un.

Also, it is my understanding that you are restricted to a maximum of 100 hours per month on a CPL, no doubt someone will correct me on that if I am wrong?

VFE.

[apruneuk]

STM

Airline pilots teaching for free in their spare time is one reason why full-time FIs are so poorly paid in this country. No wonder people complain that many instructors are only in it for the hours - we need to eat like the rest of them.

Thankfully, I think you will find that instructing, which is Aerial Work, counts towards your 900 hours. I'd be happy to do a job share with you if your company would be prepared to match my £13.00 per hour. however....

A

[foxmoth]

Personally I will not instruct for free for this reason and would advise any Airline pilot to do the same.;)

[DB6]

Instructional hours definitely count towards your totals. I instruct and examine part-time while working full-time for an airline and required written permission from my company. If you fly anywhere near 900 hrs/year for your lot, forget it (I only do 4-500 hours). I am also conscious of taking work from full-time FIs so I only tend to do skill tests and more advanced stuff (aeros, IMC etc.)....and teach the wife! :eek: :eek: :eek: , however that will depend on the FTO you want to work for; some might welcome somebody willing to do trail lessons as full-time FIs get a bit brassed off with them.
As far as flight time limitations go, you can instruct for free (but don't, as you will piss a lot of people off) and fly privately although your company may place limitations on you in these areas.
Practically, although it may seem like a great idea just now you will find that, unless you are single or otherwise free of other commitments, after you have lost time to weather, aircraft going tech and students calling off, it is quite a hassle.

[VFE]

So the 900 hour rule is waived if you don't get paid? How daft is that! I would expect the 900 hour ruling to be in place for safety (fatigue) reasons but hey, it seems if ya don't get paid then you aren't as tired? Go figure...

VFE.

[S-Works]

It is amazing at the FI's who get there knickers in a twist over people putting something back into aviation for free. If a student wants to fly with a specific Instructor it is their choice, if that Instructor does it for free then it is also there choice.
I don't see the issue as it is not taking bread from there mouths. I had the same issue when I started teaching, I don't need the money so I wanted to put something in for free to try and help GA. I got grief, so now I everything I would earn is donated directly to charity, comic relief, stroke and cancer research.
What tosh, Airline pilots and others teaching for free is nothing to do with the reason FI's are so poorly paid. Fi's are poorly paid because the vast majority of them are seen as hour builders not interested in the long term future of the school or the student. The training industry is so tight on margin and the flying population unable/unwilling to pay. And how do you classify poorly paid? £13 an hour is more than twice the minimum wage. You don't look at the checkout staff at Tesco or the bus drivers etc as being so "poorly" paid and they are on far less. Oh of course taking a few "professional" exams makes you better than them?

[crap pilot]

Most working in Tescos have not paid £50K for the privilage. They are also being paid for a 40 hour week. Most instructors will be at the airfeild for longer that this but probably only paid for half the time that they are there because they can only fly when the weather is suitable.
Im not saying that i disagree with you, just that the comparison is a bad one.

[VFE]

As someone willing to career instruct (if only I could survive on the money) I find Bose-X comments to be rather inflammatory and annoying.

Whilst unfair to blame those who instruct for free soley for the current poor instructor wage system it might however increase the possibility of FTO's being more realistic and agreeing to pay us a wage as this is far preferable to the current situation whereby the vast majority of us only receive remuneration whilst airborne.

Pay me £1000/month prior to tax and I'd be happy.

Too much to ask?

It appears it is...

On a realistic wage I can survive but on £10-£20/hr during the winter I cannot.

Simple as that.

Would it affect this situation if people like Bose-X didn't offer their services for free?

It would be naive to think not!

VFE.

[S-Works]

Not sure why you see my comments as inflamatory. They are a simple statement of the current situation. The career instructor is a rarity these days, 98% of Instructors are only doing the job so they can build hours for an airline job. The FTO's take advantage of this on the grounds that they know they are not going to be shown any loyalty so why should they?

Just because someone spent £50k on a career does not make them any worthier of a higher wage than a bus driver etc. and it is very arrogant to assume that the amount you spend equates to your worth. The ATPL's are not a great tax of the individuals ability they are just expensive and a demonstration of what can be remembered long enough to take an exam. Lets have a straw poll of those of us who think we could take the exams again tommorrow and pass?

The FI will be undervalued as long as it is not taken as being a serious career by those who use it as a route to "better" things. When the airlines start to sponsor tested candidates and take instructing as a means of building hours out of the loop FI's will start to be treated as the professionals they are.

In the meantime quit bleating about the tough life and giving me a hard time for pointing out the facts.

[VFE]

You are arrogantly missing the point as to why we feel we should be remunerated better than at present Bose-X. It has nothing to do with the money we spent to get here whatsoever and the fact you assume arrogance on our behalf suggests there may be some degree of jealousy going on here for whatever reason...

I do a valid job and require a valid wage to survive. I do not ask for superfluous amounts of money, just enough to pay my bills - that is all. Comparrisons with bus drivers are so hackneyed as to be irrelevant these days. People like you offering their services for free do nothing to help my situation - that is all I am saying here. That is the simple fact as I see it. If you live by the sword then you can expect to die by the sword Bose-X because guys like me do not like guys like you and never will.

Where did you get your random figure of 98% from? :hmm:

This is another reason why I believe you derive enjoyment from winding people less fortunate than yourself up on forums such as these. Perhaps you should reflect on your actions and lose the chip from your shoulder because your rancour is not with instructors such as myself who are struggling to forge a living, it is with the fact you are not at the station you wish to be at in your life and are embarrassed about the ruthless tactics you presently employ.

VFE.

[stallion69]

Well said......I think you will find Bose x doesn't charge because he doesn't have a CPL.........To charge you need one, not the imaginary one he tells everyone he has

[DB6]

A bit of thread degeneration here, as normal. Did you ever consider that the real culprits here are the wankers in charge of the regulatory structure that effectively compels an instructor to go through all the crap that an ATPL requires (we don't fly from Recife to Dakar in Loganair either), rather than setting up a clear instructional career path which would encourage instructors, not hour builders. Just like the no-win, no-fee legal situation the real culprits are those who make the rules, not necessarily those who live by them.
I will just clarify that last line by adding that no-win, no-fee lawyers are the lowest form of life on earth, and any 'just doing my job' argument is countered by the fact that you have be a c**t to choose that job in the first place - which goes for a lot of jobs actually.
How's that for thread drift :} ?

[VFE]

Excellent crack at thread creap there DB6 - not a bad effort at all. :} :ok:

Interesting point you make about the regulatory body tho... I assume you refer to the lovely people down at the Belgrano? Sadly, those folks care not a jot for the financial well being of the flight training community (from the student to the FTO director) unless there is a safety issue attached and the only safety issue I can see here is that the likes of Bose-X risk getting lynched before they step out to their aircraft. ;)

VFE.

[DB6]

Not so much the CAA, rather JAR/EASA (don't get me started about that whole heap of steaming turd). However the CAA ostensibly looks after UK civil aviation and we pay them enough so they are the ones upon whose doorstep the whole sorry mess lies in the first instance. I do hear rumblings about UK-only instructor ratings on an NPPL, but that's all they are at present. CAA - get a move on and f*ck JAR! By the time those tossers have sorted anything out a) it will be in French and b) we could have had 6,000 instructors trained and at a fraction of the cost and double the quality.

Oh and if I haven't made myself clear - SOD OFF JAA and EUROPE!
(where aviation regulation is concerned, not food and wine....of course :ok:. Or women :E ).

[S-Works]

Oooh thats what I love about these forums, how when you can't come up with a logical counter argument it degenerates into you slagging people off. I especially like the use of bold to highlight my ID to make a point. I have no intention of winding anyone up, and I have no rancour with Instructors.
This is nothing to do with me giving training for free or giving it to a worthy cause. It also has nothing to do with me having a chip on my shoulder about anything, I am perfectly happy with my lot in life and certainly don't feel the need to have a mid life crisis and become an airline pilot! :O
If you read my comments before the "red mist" descended and you went looking for a fight I merely point out that the reason career FI's are not treated like the professionals they are is that the hour building FI's have lowered the bar by taking poor pay in exchange for the hours. That sort of person does not seem to give a toss about those that follow behind him when he has his comfy jet job. But the fault again does not really lie with the hour builders either, they are just trying make the most of the crap situation forced on them by our regulators and the airlines.
If airline pilots went back to selected sponsored training it would take the hour builders out of the FI role and leave a vacuum forcing the FTO's to pay those who chose to become career instructors a proper wage for a professional job. It would also take those who do the ATPL's under some delusion that they will become an airline pilot but actually do not have the team skills or management skills to tackle the job. Stats again, the airlines reckon that 60% of the hopefulls out there are unemployable as they do not have these traits.
I get my 98% and other stats from AOPA who talk to the FTO's and produce the stats, the average stay for an FI at a school now is 4.5 months. Just stats but not picked out of thin air.
Tell me VFE are you a career instructor or an airline hopefull? Why do my comments rankle you so? They are just an observation of the situation as it stands. If you can hold your temper long enough to give me an explanation of why you think it is different then please go ahead. An explanation does not consist of slagging me off to try and prove your point.
Feel free to flame away, you never know the "chip" might ignite and burn my head off...... :p

[VFE]

If I wished to slag you off Bose-X (lighter typeset to avoid inflamming your paranoia) believe me I would but I simply passed my views on your behaviour and abnoxious attitude in your posting. You took the bold step of not only defending your stance but also chose to pour salt into the wound by taking a pop at paid instructors who feel they are not remunerated adequately. Did you really think you'd elicit zero response? Come come now...

As far as I am concerned it is not a complicated point I aim to make here and neither is yours - I am in agreement about prospective ATPL's using the instructor route - however this does not excuse your offering of services for free does it? Excusing ones bad behaviour because another bad situation exists is not a valid from of defence in my opinion.

Must try harder! ;)

VFE.

[S-Works]

My bad behaviour? Offering my services for free is my choice and I do not see how it effects paid instructors in any manner (and as a matter of point, I give my money to charity....). I have already explained the reason why I think you are paid so badly and it is nothing to do with me. So who is paranoid here?
I think maybe the paranoia lies firmly with you. You are unhappy with your lot as far as pay and conditions are concerned and seem to think projecting the blame onto me is somehow going to improve things or at least make you feel better. However if it makes you feel better then I am all for it, perhaps it's a new service I could offer and it seems you are forcing me to give it for free.... ;)
At the end of the day at our airfield we have 60 odd aviators and no FTO so are you really expecting these people to go and join a club just to fly with an Instructor and therefore somehow improve your pay and conditions? I suspect that it would have zero impact. However if there was suddenly a vacuum caused by a lack of instructors because hours builders could not/need not use this route the FTO's would have to pay what you are no doubt worth.

[xrayalpha]

Bose-X wrote:

...However if there was suddenly a vacuum caused by a lack of instructors because hours builders could not/need not use this route the FTO's would have to pay what you are no doubt worth.....

It may interest all on this thread to know that I pay my microlight instructors 35 per hour and am paying (sponsoring, he'll pay back at a fiver per training hour) for one keen chap to do his microlight instructor's course to train on the C42 Ikarus (which has the identical airframe in both microlight and light aircraft versions).

So, the finger is right on the button when pointed at the regulators who would insist that he'd need 60k of training instead of 4k of training to teach the owner of a light aircraft C42 instead of a microlight one.

And one trained on the microlight one, you just need three hours with a 60k instuctor to get an NPPL light aicraft licence!

Roll on the microlight instructors being allowed to teach SEP NPPL from unlicenced fields. It may not make flying much cheaper but it will sure mean a decent wage for instructors, and maybe a better chance of flying schools surviving instead of going to the wall as actually hapens quite frequently.

As regards bus drivers, I ask would-be instructors: do you want to earn the wage of a bus driver, train driver or airline pilot?

I regard that as 14k, 30+K and 50k.

Whatever they reply, my answer is that my aim is that they earn at least 20k, and hopefully a bit more which will take them to the national average wage.

I need instructors to fly so as I can run a school! (And earn about 20k from that!)

Very best to all.

[PT6Driver]

Regarding not being paid when not flying -
A few years ago the Inland Revenue (UK) ruled that all the time an instructor was at his / her base or airport they had to be paid at least the minimum wage. ie if you spent 6 days a week 8 hours a day + all November hanging around the flight school waiting for (a) a student (b) some weather that was remotly good enough to fly in and (c) a servicable aircraft but only flew 2 or 3 hours and your employer only paid you for those hours you have probably bin robbed.:eek:
Also some companies will require you to get permision even if you are not paid when instructing.

[StarTrek Manipulator]

Cor Blimey!!!

Some good info there guys......and some varied opinions. My main reason for wanting to get back to Instructing is for the sheer enjoyment of it! I had heard that there may be a 'technicality' re; 'not for hire or reward' but the reason I asked this was just for clarification. It certainly isn't my intention to fly for free as I am mindful of the many Instructors who are doing fine jobs for very poor financial reward.
It actually looks as though I won't be able to continue with the Instructing as I do go pretty close to the 900 hours already:( ...shame because I have lots of Instructing hours under my belt and probably have some experience to offer..........seems like I'll be looking for a (cheap) share in a Cessna 150:)

[foxmoth]

A few years ago the Inland Revenue (UK) ruled that all the time an instructor was at his / her base or airport they had to be paid at least the minimum wage.

This is fine for those employed by the club/school. but if you work on a freelance basis as many do this does not apply.:uhoh:

[CaptAirProx]

Bose - In relation to the £13 Per Hour you have missed one crucial point.

From my experience of four flying schools I have worked for, 100% pay for the flying hour, which when slotted into a flying program equates to between £6.00 to £9.00.

So £6.00 is hardly ground breaking stuff when one considers the role in which an instructor is playing.

[S-Works]

I really don't know why you keep labouring the point with me. I have the greatest sympathy for the crap wages FI's earn. I have also outlined the reasons why I think this is the case.

So go bang your head against someone elses wall please.

[wheatools]

Hello,

Why is it that some see that all FI's who have the ambition for a different part of the industry, e.g. the airlines, make such poor instructors who deserve to be treated (and paid) pretty poorly my many schools?

I agree there are always exceptions to the rule, but all of my past and present colleagues who have moved on to (or are seeking to) other parts of the industry have only ever had the best intentions for their students and have passed their knowledge on passionately and professionally for the good of the student and therefore the school. Just beacause they have their own career ambition certainly does not make them a poor quality instructor!

If the other issue pointed out is they only stay with a school for a short period of time then i think this is a direct result of the poor pay conditions. Most FI's (myself included) love instructing and would gladly spend a longer period of our careers doing so... if it was possible to feed our families and pay the mortgage without having to work 2 jobs (such as I do).

Most 'hour builder' FI's are worth just as much to their students as career FI's so why cant we be treated fairly?

just my 2 cents worth!

[Token Bird]

My God, bose-x - I'm amazed you are still talking such nonsense. Do you have any involvement with flight training? The reason flying instructors are paid such low wages is that there is simply a very low profit margin in flight training. I work at a small school with only myself and the CFI. The CFI is a career instructor and he doesn't get a particularly large wage either.

I know how much it costs for our rent, bills, aircraft maintenance, fuel, parking etc... I also know how much we charge per hour. If I do the Maths then I realise that the club owners simply cannot afford to pay me any more!

The idea that the flying schools pay us so badly is because they think they can **** on us because we're only using them for hours, is pure crap I'm afraid.

And another thing, generalising about hour-builders being crap instructors and not caring about their students is a tad offensive, don't you think. I personally take my job very seriously. I apply the same high standards to it as I plan to do with my future airline career. I have also done a number of non-aviation temp jobs and have applied high standards to those as well.

TB

[S-Works]

TB, I refer you to my answer above. I am done arguing on this.