Kent Police Helicopter

[bell222]

Does anyone know if kent police haved moved on with their idea of finally having their own asu thanks a lot

[Xavier Dosh]

Bell222

Kent have been making use of the Essex 135, G-ESEX on an ad-hoc basis recently.

I am unaware of a firm order for an aircraft or an 'Invitation to Tender' for Maintenance or Pilot Support.

So, on that basis I would suggest that we're not going to see anything in the near future....

Unless anyone has rumours to the contrary?

Xavier

[idle stop]

Xavier: Your name epitomises Kent Constabulary.
The level of importance attached to the project (if it still exists) is reflected in the project being run (if that's the word) by a Sgt. (or is he a DS?).
One might have though that with a Chief Constable versed in the usefulness of an ASU in his previous post, there would have been more of a push.

[Helinut]

I have heard of some sort of vague possibility of a temporary short term stand alone trial. It would presumably have to use aircraft/PAOC etc. all hired in. Given the lack of decent spare police machines, it would not really prove very much.:hmm:

What makes the difference and gets a police force an ASU is a small group of senior officers who push for their own. Kent have been f****ying around for so long, you wonder what it would take to convince them.

The trouble is that they cannot really get into a consortium and share a machine within any other force sensibly. The geography would mean that the other force(s) Air Support would be very seriously adversely affected. Maybe they should wait until the UK gets a border police and borrow from them, like they have from most other forces in the SE of England over the years. :)

The current financial position of police force cuts makes it less rather than more likely. This is a shame, because Kent could really use its own Air Support

[bell222]

i believe this project was going to culminate in a unit being set up in 2008

[a1w]

I believe Kent will be anxiously awaiting the outcome of the meetings regarding regionalisation of Air Support in the South East. With the imposed budget cuts on police forces most are reviewing areas in which they believed savings can be made, no suprise ASU's became an obvious target.
All forces are being encouraged to enhance cross-border relationships but unfortunately some of the bods higher up do not appreciate the complexities of moving existing ASU's to provide cover for a larger area!!!

[Helinut]

a1w,

That sounds about right. Still trying to get Air Suppoirt without paying for it.........

Take a look at the map of the SE. No neignbouring force can share a hele with Kent without seriously affecting the service provided.

[a1w]

Helinut..

See that's where you went wrong - high up bods in police forces do not do common sense or pratical terms!! :ugh: They have indeed begun to consider the implications of trying to move 2 of the ASU's near to Kent, but not thought about what that would do to the effectiveness of the air support already being provided from those locations!

[bell222]

could kent purchase one of the mets 355n's to make a saving just to get up and running

[Helinut]

bell222,

I share a1w's views. This is not a problem of hardware (in anything other than the short term). The ACPOs etc are running around looking for cuts at the moment. Some never understood Air Support or liked it. They are certainly unlikely to take time at the moment to understand it now. Indeed some are always happy to take pot shots at Air Support. Away from the SE, there are some mind-numbingly daft propositions being floated for some Units at the moment. We will just have to see what appears. However UEOs etc may need to put their heads above the parapets, which may not be the best career move sometimes...........

[a1w]

I believe the next round of discusions regarding South East air support is scheduled sometime in mid April, perhaps one step closer to providing some reassurance to the ASU's already in existance??
Surely the most logical solution would be for Kent to provide funding to the surrounding ASU's to provide an agreed level of service in return? It would be far cheaper option than going stand alone and possibly work out cheaper than the ad-hoc "rental" of air support they currently rely on?

[Helinut]

The disadvantages of an arrangement such as you suggest lie with Sussex and Surrey Police. At present, each has high quality air support provided by a helicopter that operates in a relatively small area. Response times will be good, so allowing the Units to intervene rapidly, with associated high success rates.

If a police hele can respond to the scene of an incident within a few minutes, it has a much hgher chance of successful intervention. If it take 30 minutes to transit, many reactive jobs will have finished before the aircraft gets there.

If you use the same aircraft to cover a MUCH bigger area, then the benefit to Surrey and Sussex of their air support will be much reduced. Their council tax payers have paid a significant sum for their Air Support. It would IMHO, be a great shame to have that diluted, so that Kent could be said to have cover on the cheap.

Surrey has past experience of "sharing" air support with a larger partner. If you were to ask those who were involved, I suspect they would advise you of the many disadvantages.

[bell222]

am i wrong in thinking that it was suggested to amalgamate surrey and sussex into one asu with just one machine possibly the 135 due to the ambulance service pulling out of sussex asu

[Helinut]

Bell222,

I am sure that could be one of the many rumours that have been floated. However, I know of no substance behind such a rumour.

In my view, if you wanted to get the optimum solution for Surrey and Sussex, why not have 2 heles, each providing a joint Police/HEMS role for 1 county. Or even get the Kent AA involved and provide joint heles in all 3 counties!

It is the most effective solution, but it won't happen because of Empires. Kent AA trust has been nibbling away at Surrey/Sussex for some time. Coordination between police forces is always difficult too.

[a1w]

Helinut,

I totally agree with the points you make especially the possible effects it could have on the service to those already in Sussex and Surrey, my suggestion was purely put forward as the powers that be seem adament on trying to stretch the areas both aircraft currently cover. But the practical and effective solution would of course be for Kent to have their own hele.

Bell222 - from what I understand Sussex ambulance - which are now SECAMB (South East Coast Ambulance) are still very supportive of Sussex ASU and continuing to keep that aircraft as dual role. From what I see it appears to be a very cost effective approach to providing air support for police and HEMS. Shame those in Wiltshire do not appear to agree and I would have to quote Helinut with the use of "Empires" as a reason why!!!

[bell222]

is it actually 2007 or am i dreaming zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[Helinut]

Bell 222,

Sounds like you are trying to say something, but personally I don't understand what you are getting at.........

Do you want to try again for those oif us slow on the uptake?

[bell222]

just trying to say that i feel in this day and age the uk should have full asu coverage but judging what has been said in in this post it seems that this will not be the case

[Helinut]

Don't think anyone here will disagree with that.

UK Police forces are getting squeezed for money at present though. Those who have not gone, will be less likely to throw money at "high profile" expenditure at present. By definition, those who have not gone already are going to be reluctant. Kent is really the most extreme case - other forces without Air Support tend to be tiny and rural.

Turn the argument around, Air Support needs police on the ground to make the arrests! Sometimes it seems there is no one there!

My take on this though is that publicly funded helicopters should be operated as joint emergency service helicopters. It reduces the area of operation for each hele, which makes it more effective. It also makes better use of under-utilised expensive resources.

The problem lies with government department empires. There is no incentive for Home Office aircraft to be used by Health Department and vice versa: quite the reverse. A real shame.

[bell222]

on the subject of other areas here in lincs i believe it is cambs, humberside, north mids and norfolk "which itself is only part time" supply air support, maybe this is another can of worms best left unopened!!!!!!:confused:

[bell222]

just reading on rotorhub looks like kent police finally have a decent level of air support via essex asu, just wondering now if essex will drop their name and become some kind of regional asu like the met & surrey did a few years back :ok:

[aeromys]

That'll please the Essex bobbies when it's searching for a misper in Folkstone :ooh:

[What Limits]

Thats probably closer than Ross-On-Wye is to Leek !!

[bell222]

What will happen if the essex a/c is offline for whatever reason, will this mean cambs or suffolk asu's being tasked to kent.

[Helinut]

What Limits,

Two wrongs don't make it right.

[idle stop]

Well, I'm feeling in Alan Sugar mode, so here goes....
This whole thread is a misnomer! Kent does NOT have a police helicopter. They're buying hours off Essex, as they did off the Met and then Surrey until they ran out of credit: or do I mean credibility?
The Kent approach to an ASU has been serious to the level of entrusting the whole issue to a Sergeant for the past n years. Of course, I'm sure he's very competent.
However, don't blame the Constabulary: despite the present Chief Constable having come from the Met, where surely he must have learned and appreciated the value of Air Support, the Kent Police Authority has singularly failed to resource an ASU over a number of years.
When Kent Police have a permanent aircraft on site, and have their own Observers who know their local 'ground', and not just a portacabin saying 'Kent Police ASU', then I just may, just, become a believer.

[Helinut]

idle stop,

I don't disagree, but I suspect that the number of half-baked and and less effective ASUs will increase over the next few years. The people making decisions about Air Suppport are usually ignorant of how it works and what it does and does not do. As others have said previously the decisions are focussed on short-term goals and targets, not effective policing, sadly.

To some extent the UK police aviation community is partly to blame. We have never really taken the trouble to document what we do and what affects our effectiveness. It may be self-evident to us, but it is not us who are in charge.

The news from the NE is really very sad. I hope that someone records how things change when they drop to one aircraft. However, those who have made the decision have every incentive to hide those changes.

When we get spread so thinly we will be consigned to doing missing person searches and photography, with endless pointless transits to jobs that are long gone. I wonder how long the scrotes will take to notice?

[tigerfish]

Helinut has it on the button! UK Police Aviation used to lead the world both in efficiency and effectiveness. The problem was that it just got on with doing the job quietly.
Then a new breed of Senior Officers arrived who had never worked without air support & did not appreciate what it was like before we had it. Budget cuts from central Govt caused them to start casting about for ways to save money. They saw the air support budget & decided to slash costs. Never mind the results.

Bad times are a coming & by the time they realise their mistake it will be too late!
Tigerfish

[Art of flight]

Kent have indeed entered into a formal agreement with Essex for air support as one of a number of cross boundary service sharing arrangements. Having met quite a few of the senior people in both forces I can say there is a huge willingness to get full air support in both counties as soon as possible but until there is more money this is the best arrangement that can be found.

The Essex, Cambs and Suffolk Consortium have been providing air support to Kent for quite a few years now (amongst others) on a paid per sortie basis so I guess this is the next logical step if full funding for a 'Kent' ASU is still not available.

I think were entering an era of financial constraint that will see more single county ASU's looking to share costs with willing partners or expanding consortium arrangements, and in an odd way is moving towards what we at ASU's have been calling for for a long time, a more 'national or at least Regional Air Support Organisation'

Just my honest opinion:):)

regards to all

[Droopy]

However, those who have made the decision have every incentive to hide those changes.

Helinut, isn't that known as "managing the situation"?

[ShyTorque]

Then a new breed of Senior Officers arrived who had never worked without air support & did not appreciate what it was like before we had it. Budget cuts from central Govt caused them to start casting about for ways to save money. They saw the air support budget & decided to slash costs. Never mind the results.


I agree. As I posted on the NE thread, we are now in a situation where somene will now make their career out of "savings" made by axeing police aviation. In a few years time, someone else will make theirs by re-instating it because of savings that can be made....

[mlc]

The police service and a team of charity volunteers decided to engage in a competitive boat race. Both teams practiced hard and long to reach their peak performance. On the big day they felt ready.
The charity volunteers won by a mile. Afterward, the police team was discouraged by the loss. Morale sagged. Corporate management decided that the reason for the crushing defeat had to be found, so a consulting firm was hired to investigate the problem and recommended corrective action.
The consultant’s finding: The charity volunteers team had eight people rowing and one person steering; the police team had one person rowing and eight people steering.
After a year of study and millions spent analyzing the problem, the consultant firm concluded that too many people were steering and not enough were rowing on the police team.
So as race day neared again the following year, the police team’s management structure was completely reorganized. The new structure: four steering managers, three area steering managers and a new performance review system for the person rowing the boat to provide work incentive.
The next year, the charity volunteers won by two miles. Humiliated, the police laid off the rower for poor performance and gave the managers a bonus for discovering the problem….

[Jackboot]

It was more than 30 years ago now that as a serving cop I did all sorts of flying for 'the job' in crappy machines and with no official budget.

The work I did remains sensitive. However, what I can say is that it resulted in some serious collars being felt.

the surveillance value of a ten bob C150 was incalculable.

At the time I felt I was playing the same role as the pioneers of military aviation who were battling to prove the worth of the aircraft v the horse.

Hampshire Constabularly, under the expert control of Bob Ruprecht, were way ahead with their Air Support Unit and led the way nationaly. I spent some time with them.

Alas, the fatal crash of the Edgley Optica flown by a serving Hants police officer was a major setback and possibly contributed to a decision that aircraft on police business had to be flown by civvie pilots(?).

It seems that even now, the worth of a helicopter - or a fixed wing machine as opposed to nothing - is still woefully underestimated.

'How much? You must be joking! '

Many overseas forces use the R44. Why not go that route if a twin-turbine heli isnt an option?

You can get an R44 with all the bells and whistles 'off the shelf'.

All sorts of ANO exemptions are possible. I found the CAA very supportive at the time - no reason to suspect otherwise these days?.

H

[tigerfish]

Jackboot,
I suggest that you compare the UK Police accident record against almost anywhere else in the world!
There are approximately 30 UK Police Helicopters in service, they average about 1,000 hrs per year each, - some as much as 1,400 hrs. In all weathers and on very black nights.
I am not one who normally leaps to the defence of the CAA, - but the real truth is that they, and the excellent Pilots and equipment that we insist upon, have kept us safe as well as effective over the years.
I might be persuaded that a modern single turbine MIGHT be suitable for use in the rural patrol envireonment, but never a piston engined machine, and never low over our cities, especially at night.
We have a superb system now, - do not let the accountants spoil it. The results of their stupidity will not take long to surface. With reduced (rapid) air support the criminal will not take long to realise that its open season.

Before you argue, check out those accident statistics.

Tigerfish

[Fly_For_Fun]

Just heard on the BBC news that Essex was providing 24/7 cover for Cambs, Suffolk, Essex and Kent. Some area of operations :bored:

Would that be the "Police Helicopter Eastern Wing" (PHEW) ?

[tigerfish]

As I understand it;- Essex, Suffolk and Camb's are all part of one mutually supportive consortium. Highly effective, and a well organised use of joint resources. Under the direction of one UEO ( Essex ). I believe that the arrangement with Kent is a separate agreement with Essex. Therefore it does not necessarily follow that if the Essex machine was off line that one of the other two machines would have to be deployed to Kent. I may be wrong on that, but it does seem logical.
I predict that eventually Kent will decide that the only really effective way to join the party is to bring a present!

Ol Grumpy!
AKA Tigerfish

[Pan Euro]

Don't believe everything that you read Tigerfish might just be nearer to the truth.

[MerryDown]

Isnt it amazing how one force looks to modernise its service to its region, while another axes an extremely efficient and respected air support unit.

I am talking here the decision to axe one aircraft from the NEASU operation, I do hope the bean counters can still count in the future when the crime starts to adjust due to poor response times.

Lets hope they all get the CV they are looking for , lots of buzz words included on it (axe,chop,cut,modernise,slimmer,leaner,smarter,arsekiss) and all leave the North East for places & careers new !

Merry BUT NOT Down :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[manfromuncle]

"I might be persuaded that a modern single turbine MIGHT be suitable for use in the rural patrol envireonment, but never a piston engined machine, and never low over"

Ah, here we go again, the myth of turbine reliability.

Turbine engines are no more reliable than a piston, it's just they produce better power/weight ratios.

Many forces over the world use the R44 in a police/ENG/surveillance role.

[DennisK]

Hi all,

It saddens me to see the differing management decisions of police helicopter operators around the country. I also find it odd that a particular heli type is deemed ideal for one county while another operation down the road opts for an alternative type.

Would I be right in thinking that for most regions and the nature of the task, there ought to be one type that best fits most operations.

Now the price thing is coming to the fore.

Around the mid 1970s, I found myself sitting in front of the Police Chief at two or three Police units, doing my sales pitch. First was the famed 'Big G' of the Glascow force where I spent a week on typical 'police ops' with a humble Enstrom. In those days I recall it coped with 95% of the required tasks.

Ditto a year or so later at the Kidlington HQ and by 1975. I was flying a couple of coppers over London out of Battersea. Next it was the Guildford force at Mount Browne where I was still using an Enstrom on aerial observation, missing persons and traffic.

Once the Met got going it became sensible to use the twin, but as I recall it, the cost went skywards and using the Bell 222, was something in the order of six times higher than the Gill Crewdson's Helicopter Hire annual charge for their Enstroms.

So here we are in 2008, when it now seems that the cost factor, accounting and the politics and careers that go with that, are turning the corner and ASUs are in danger of shutting up shop.

Can't we take a leaf from USA? The Pasadena Police have been successfully using the Enstrom now since 1970 and as we all know, other US Police Forces similarly use the MD 500, A Star etc.

I'm not suggesting a wholesale move over to singles, but I take the view that better that as losing valuable police work to our industry is worse.

As we speak the R44 is in regular use over London, and in 35 years on the London Lanes, I know of only two occasions of engine failure. (Dear David Voy will know about one of them!) I also know of two engine failures by the B206. Then there was Bell '222' double engine failure at Lippits Hill a few years ago.

So what am I saying? Where costs are about to scrub an ASU, shouldn't the industry put up a case for a lower cost single? There are better guys than me out there with the engine failure statistics, but where the prime role is aerial observation, a 500/R44/480T etc, could do the job at perhaps one third of the price. Especially if the rowing managers were pensioned off!

Flak helmet on .. all ready to fire out there!

Best wishes to all,

Dennis Kenyon.

[Jetscream 32]

Add to that the comms and camera capabilities and it makes a fairly compelling reason to look into it - the amount of 500ft days overcast / day/night is not huge in the scheme of hours flown - and a single turb with a decent driver in the right seat is going to be able to find a clear area in just about most cases other than maybe the four biggish cities.

How many machines are rented to ASU's on an effective ACMI basis??

Are there many on a min utilisation per annum but pay-as-you-go?

n

[tigerfish]

Dennis,
I have no doubt that what you describe was fine then, but today our machines carry fairly heavy gyro stabilised TV cameras capable of daylight, lowlight and FLIR imaging. Digital microwave up ( & sometimes down ) link. Nightsun Illumination, GPS moving map nav systems, Public address systems and up to 4 & 5 onboard TV monitors. TCAS and advanced communications systems.
Now you might say that that is "overkill" but today when they are not trying to shut us down that is what our masters expect us to provide.- A full and comprehensive command and control facilitator.
I doubt if the enstrom, even in its latest form would even get off the ground with all that kit on board. Yes it can be cut down upon, but the resource will simply not be as effective. Remember too that a great deal of Police air ops today are at night and in adverse weather conditions.Police air ops need to be 24/7 to be really effective.
Someone asked about "Ownership "
With only a couple of exceptions the vast majority of UK Police aircraft are directly owned by the forces operating them. Pilots are directly employed and some forces even conduct their own maintenance operations. Very few machines are leased because of Govt grant aid to assist with purchase.

Tigerfish

[Fly_For_Fun]

I just wonder where the rational is when one police force is cutting air ops and providing a diluted service, not best value for money IMHO, and another is dipping into its pocket to pay for air support from another county, another diluted service for Kent and Essex, and again not best value for money. These two solutions to the same problem seem to be polls apart, but neither achieve a good or cost effective solution.

The logic seems to be that in the end the UK could have one helicopter based in UK centre of mass and cover the whole area for next to nothing. Quite a saving and what an entry for the CV for the senior officer that puts it in place.