Standard of Aviation English

[YesTAM]

Without wishing to name call or anything suchlike, I believe that the standard "Cambridge Certificate" English pass required from overseass students is too low a standard, either that, or the teaching of English as a second language is abysmal, at least Victoria.

To all you skygods, tootlling about at FL030 it probably isn't an issue, but it's a source of irritation to me sometimes and I also suspect to ATC and various suburban towers (YMMB).

Now we all stutter and say dumb things when we start out, and the long suffering ATC and Towers put up with us, but it concerned me yesterday listening to Melbourne Radar trying to give instructions to someone and get a clear readback in incredibly accented English. This takes up valuable time on frequency and must increase their workload and costs.

I didn't mind doing an orbit yesterday to clear a student who was tracking for Avalon, at least he had made his call, even if he wasn't going to deviate in the slightest from his chosen track despite the fact that he was slowly overtaking. I have however heard ATC get exasperated to the point where they stated on frequency "I've told you three times to XXXX".

I'm not sure that the old excuse "Well they will learn eventually" is good enough, neither for the student or the rest of the community. For the student, the ability to communicate successfully in an emergency is important for them, and for the rest of us, I'm concerned about the holes in the Swiss cheese lining up, one hole being a toungue tied fellow pilot.

I wonder if it might be possible to develop (if one doesn't already exist) a computer based training package that can take these kids (and perhaps a few of us) through an "Aviation English" course, complete with challenges and responses and the common and not so common scenarios.

[aircabbie]

I agree Mate , my common english is pretty average though im schooling to rectfy .
My point is however is that Basair and alike don't care as long as there shooting out pilots at the other end , pls correct me if im wrong . I belive these companies need to have better selection protocols in place rather than just heaps of coin behind them . If overseas pilots want to come to Australia to learn im all for that , if it keeps our instructors in jobs ect . I think a Training package as mentioned above is a great idea ...(hell would not hurt for alot of our own pilots me included to do a course like that )

[Fhead]

Hasn't CASA brought out DVD's covering all types of airspace at most controled airports already to help this problem.

At least those guys are on radar or people in the area are getting traffic advice. I'm having problems with all pilots not monitoring the right frequency, not talking or have no idea where they are. I wish they would bring back CTAF's and MBZ's but thats another problem

[CoolCat]

I just started learning to fly at Moorabbin. Do you guys know of any online resources that actually tell you what to say over the radio?

[planemad_bk]

you could try the AIPs?

[Lasiorhinus]

Anyway, this issue was recognised sometime by ICAO and English proficiency will be an ICAO requirement by March 2008. Here's more about it; http://www.rmitenglishworldwide.com/icao.html

Ironically, that webpage comes from a Uni which many of its own cadet pilots from North Asia have poor English proficiency!

Yes, RMIT are aware of the problem and are doing their best to ensure that their current and future students adhere to the ICAO requirements.

[Aerodynamisist]

I agree it's a problem and one that has been around for a while, the cadets at Tamworth in the 90's were pretty bad to, I know when doing a license conversion it is up to the instructor doing the flight review to asses the standard of english but I'm unsure of the rules as far as a student training here is concerned.

Don Pollack was running a aviation english course with his wife, he probably has all the information one would need to run the course. Ive lost contact with him over the years but the last I heard he was in mount beauty Victoria.

[Bling-Blot]

I, too, have been frustrated by this problem. Having some experience with these students I can say that ICAO requires the student to have a Level 4 pass to fly internationally and Level 3 for Domestic in their own country. Unfortunately when it comes to non-standard and/or unusual requests the student's real grasp of English is demonstrated. :ugh:

Maybe the ICAO standards need to be reviewed.

[kiwiblue]

I've been waiting for anyone else to mention it, but it seems no one is going to...

The standard of written expression amongst a group that collectively wraps themselves in so-called 'professionalism' is bloody appalling!!!! There is obviously no standard of spelling, punctuation or grammar any more -there is no need to look too far to see myriad examples of the abysmal 'standards' to which I refer.

I can tell you now, whenever a CV or piece of correspondence crosses my desk that is full of the grammatical, spelling, punctuation and typographical error so prevalent here, it just goes straight in the bin. Why? Because anyone that sends me such a poorly constructed and checked document has already told me that they have no professional standards. They may know the word 'professionalism' and even use it, but they have no concept of what it means. That's not the sort of person I want or need in my business.

Usually it is not those for whom English is a second-language that are the worst either -it's native English-speakers that worst express themselves in written language. For this I partially blame the current education system and rampant political correctness -kids being taught that a good crack at it is as good as getting it right... it bloody ain't so -especially in aviation. If you nearly get it right, your mostly dead passengers are hardly likely to be grateful to you for a good effort.

In short, there are shortcomings in the education systems that currently exist that create the false impression of 'near enough is good enough'. When you participate in a professional activity, it is up to you to lift your game to meet the standards necessary within that activity. The way you express yourself in written language is an essential and meaningful part of the aviation environment.

Lift your game.

[Dehavillandman]

you're lucky, i work in canada and we have french on the radios too, without translations so it gets very worrying. cheersd

[davyfella]

This all reminds me of a aprocphal story, (who knows if it is true, but it is bloody funny, so let it go)

Sat on the tarmac at Frankfiurt airport, the pilot of a Lufthansa jet to Munich, got on the net to ATC in German, and asked for permission for a start and push back.

The reply, came about in German saying...

..."Wann sie mochten auf Flucht controlle Sprechen, sie musst auf Englisch sprechen"

("If you want to talk to Air Traffic control, you must speak English")

the Lufthansa pilot said (in German)...

"Ich setzte hier in eine Deutshes registariart flugzeug, auf einem Deutsches Flughafen, und ich will jetzt nach einem anderes Deutsces Flughafen fliegen, Warum musse ich auf Englisch Sprechen?"

Translated as...

"I am sitting in a German registered plane, at a German airport, and I am flying to another German airport. why must I speak English?"

The reply came back in perfect, heavily accented Cambridge taught English...

"Because Old chap, It was us, with the assistance of the rest of the English speaking world, and not yourselves that won the War. So speak English to me, or I shall treat you with the contempt that you, and the rest of your nation so obviously deserves"

Classic

[bushy]

Many of the posts on Prune are ambiguous, or unintelligeable. Quite a few have expressed an opinion that good english is not important. IT IS.
Pilots are required to be able to communicate clearly and unambiguously both verbally and in writing. It is a major part of the job.
We ALL have to keep working on it.

[Lacma]

Can I just ask if anyone else at BK has noticed over recent years how more and more often the guys in the tower are asking someone to "repeat" last transmission due to pilot's being virtually unable to speak english?

[Wheeler]

Well, someone must have flown with those guys before they let them loose on the radio. or worse still, solo in CTA. Never mind, we all know we can rely on good old CASA to keep an eye on the situation.

[WilliamOK]

I was of the impression that you cannot get your SPL, unless you have been certified as being able to speak fluent English.....

So, some of the blame isn't necessarily on the pilot's themselves, but on the flying school that it teaching them.

[ABX]

William OK & others, who express the opinion that the flying schools must take some responsibility for the English proficiency of their students, you are right, but you make me laugh, most schools I have visited would trample over their own grandmothers to make an extra buck, shoving an illiterate student through in order to fill another place (at $100K) is common practise.:yuk:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Don't expect the new ICAO mandated English language tests to fix it either.

When pilots from sundry non English speaking airlines start failing in sufficient numbers to cause flt ops rostering dramas they will be dropped post haste...in fact long before it starts causing rostering problems.

The English language requirement will simply become another area of non compliance with ICAO and that will be that. In this PC world it will be viewed as rascist or discriminatory and ignored completely or simply have lip service paid, like all other 'standards' that cause inconveniance. Applied comprehensively far too many pilots and ATCOs world wide would be forced out of the industry either short term, while corrective courses were undertaken and passed, or permanently.

That just will not happen.

[Feather #3]

Further to kiwiblue's comments, FL030 is well below the Transition Altitude.

Above that altitude around the world, English is a fascinating variable.

The good news is that current license holders are to be "grandfathered" and exempt from testing.

G'day ;)

[HardCorePawn]

Is this going to end up being another situation, where it takes a plane load of people to die, and a cockpit voice recorder full of:

Pilots: (incomprehensible english)
ATC: Flight XXX, say again
Pilots: (incomprehensible english)
ATC: Flight XXX, say again
Pilots: (incomprehensible english)
ATC: Flight XXX, say again
...
Pilots: OH SH*T!!!
{lots of static}

before something happens?

[Chimbu chuckles]

What makes you think it will change then?

It will not.

And it could just as well be;

Pilot "perfect english" (irrespective of nationality)
ATC "unintelligable"

Just a week or so ago an Etihad widebody declared Pan Pan in Saudi airspace with a failing engine. They were on the air route that goes up along the Iraqi border from UAE to Europe via Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey etc...multiple calls later the Jeddah ATC chappy finally came up in his version of english and started asking a bunch of stupid, barely intelligable questions..even other aircraft on frequency had tried to help getting the Pan call heard and then intervened to tell the ATC fella to shut up and let them get on with it. They diverted to Amman (Jordan) and landed safely, job well done, Saudi ATC were irrelevant to the outcome.

The very high standards of ATC in Australia, NZ, UK etc are not universal...and the barely intelligable cadets you hear about the place will be gracing a widebody cockpit soon.

There is no 'one standard' as ICAO would have you believe...ICAO is just a theory of what a perfect world might be like.

[Capt Wally]

To all beginners out there having trouble with R/T & ATC requirements, simply get hold of a VHF scanner & listen.............sure you will hear lots of incorrect phrases but in little time you will soon sort out what's correct or close to it from what is not, in conjunction with the AIP (official docs) it helps a great deal, go listen & have a laugh at times, it's free & learn by others mistakes.

Capt Wally........

[mirage3]

It is difficult enough trying to understand some of these students at the best of times, but when you add poor quality radios, some Instructors who just seem to want to snooze in the right seat, and students who seem to know about ten phrases, an unusual request or instruction from ATC seems to throw some of these students way off their game. I have heard ATC ask, and then plead, for a response from some of these students up to four or five times. Goodness knows what is going to happen when they are on a solo navex and something goes wrong. How on earth are some of these students going to get their point across at a moment of crisis and how on earth is ATC or another pilot who may be able to assist going to get their point across? Come on, you Flying Schools who know who you are, lift your games and FORCE your Instructors to do their jobs. We all know who is involved, so for the sake of your own pride, LIFT YOUR GAME.

[CoolCat]

Again I'd just like to say how I really wish there was some list of common radio commands between ATC and pilots, so I could study the commands and replies. It's hard to remember a complete set of new radio responses after one lesson when having used them only once.
At this point, due to the way I've been taught radio commands just by repeating what my instructor tells me, I wonder how other pilots learn the hundreds/thousands of commands without studying actual text material.

Perhaps there is a text book I have not bought?

[mirage3]

I think that some of our fellow aviators are in somewhat of a confused state of mind. I think that some of them think that piloting an aircraft, as distinct from flying it, is similar to driving their car. When driving the car, it doesn't really require us to think about the language we use. Piloting an aircraft however, is a vastly different kettle of fish. ICAO and lots on its member states recognise that a standardised method of communication based upon clear, concise and precise phraseology is the best available mitigator against confusion between ATC and pilots. It has worked well for many years and still works well today. To the person who doesn't know how to find where the correct RT is posted, you really need to start looking. Have you asked anyone or researched ICAO, CASA and Airservices Australia documentation or has that thought not occurred to you yet? It IS different from driving a car. You NEED to be a different person if you are to pilot an aircraft. There is no room for laziness in aviation.:=

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Talking to expat mate in Turkey last night, he has heard that ICAO is pushing to certify ALL aviation participants (ATC and PILOT, worldwide) on their standard of communications. A test will be done to certify your level. Level 4, you must re-certify every three years. Level 5, every 6 years and Level 6 a lifetime certificate. Certification before March,2008.

Anyone else heard about this?

[Fhead]

sorry guys but I'm sick to death about these bloody w@nkers on here correcting everyone’s spelling and gramma. Most posters on pprune are posting just for fun and are not concerned or don't have the time to proof read every post they make. You should be thankful they are even taking the time to give you their opinion and advise, which keeps us all informed and educated in the industry.

By making such a big deal about this you’re scaring away potential posters. If it makes you so obviously distressed to read why don't you before reading every post copy and paste it to word and use its spell checker you obviously have more time on your hands than everyone else.

[CoolCat]

Why are you comparing flying to driving a car? I don't think people need to learn any radio lingo to be able to drive a car. :confused:

And what is "RT". You seem to know all about it, yet you're telling me to go find out about it myself?
How did you learn the radio commands?
I have asked people so far and still nobody's given me a straight answer.

Also, how can anyone even think of 'standardising' the radio commands if there is no documentation which teaches people a set of 'standard' commands. (unless i am wrong)
Without documentation, I don't see how anyone can enforce a standardised or what I think would be better described as a 'by-the-book' approach, when there is no book :confused:

If there is no book, learning radio is ridiculous and that's pretty much why I still don't know any of the radio stuff and make mistakes when I fly.

Also, I'm not lazy.
It's quite inappropriate and rude of you to say that I'm lazy while I have obviously made an attempt to learn radio lingo while you hadn't even bothered to tell me exactly where I may find useful documentation to aid in my doing so.
How hypocritical of you to say there is no room for laziness in aviation while you couldn't even spare a few seconds to help me with my problem!

[Biggles_in_Oz]

Uhhmmm,,, Coolcat.... Has anyone mentioned the acronym 'AIP' to you yet ?

If not, go to your favourite supplier of aviation publications or AirServices Australia and buy an Aeronautical Information Publication.
(or if you have lots of time and download credits, browse the online version of it at the Airservices website at http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications/aip.asp?pg=10)

Gen 3.4 section 4 is "Radiotelephony procedures" and section 5 is "Phraseologies".

[OpsNormal]

Fhead. FFS build yourself a bridge and get over it. Has somebody had a little dig at another one of your alter egos and you've got your panties in a bundle?:= := :=

"Most" posters on PPRuNe? Speak for yourself. Most posters here are hard-working professional people who don't have the time to read the rubbish posted by someone with the literary skills (read: usually also reasoning skills) of a kindergarten aged child. If you don't have the knowledge, upbringing (or are just too d@mned lazy) to be able to string a few cohesive and well constructed sentances together (you know, those ones that are easy to read) then your opinion is only worth something to yourself, especially your view or take of something in the industry. Go and enjoy it by yourself.

Not everybody can spell every word in the language, however nobody will get uspet at anyone if they at least have a decent go at it. What you are advocating as OK is nothing short of rubbish. Lift your game.:= := :=

[rmcdonal]

There was a book brought out a while ago with all the standard and expected phrases a pilot would here in Class C,D, GAAP, and CTAF environments. However because of the ever changing aviation rules it is now incorrect and no one (to my knowledge) has made a new one yet. The AIP is a good guide for what should be in the radio calls, however in most cases you just need to listen to it to pick up what you need to say. Your opening phrases to ATC could almost be written down on a card where you just fill in the blanks (callsign, ATIS, etc) and even the expected response (if you know exactly what they are going to give you, normal at most airfields where the same type of flight is regularly conducted. At worst case plain English can be used, especially if the clearance is tricky and your not understanding what they want you to do.