Latest Macc Rumours

[Mahaba]

Latest rumours (or facts) doing the rounds. Anyone shed any light on them?

1. The whole Banding business is being legally looked into by independents to ascertain if it is 'discrimination in the workplace', as our jobs are sufficiently like for like and the weighting allows for geographical differences.

2. Wether the 'mobile grade' we have always been quoted is actually now legally binding after changes to European law.

3. Wether (if the mobile grade argument is proven as unreliable) MACC controllers are entitled to redundancy pay as our 'place of employment' is closing. The enhanced package (which strangely enough is now being renegotiated) for redundancy allowing most guys to clear all debts and happily do something nowadays less stressful (with increasing traffic)without uprooting family.

From the rumour mill I believe these things are seriously being looked into but,as usual, it's best not to raise our hopes. If true-any one of the three would constitute a major spanner to the ill concieved Master Plan.

Anyone able to enlighten?

Serious question so please none of the usual, "you dont know lucky you are" or "whats wrong with prestwick?" or "if youre not happy just leave" replies from people who this doesnt directly affect.

[throw a dyce]

Two points,
1.What is the change in European law re mobile grade and
2.As far as Banding would people who had their careers wrecked by Management in the ATCO 2/3 division in the 90's have any case?
I certainly would like to see people taken to book over the latter and Banding.I reckon my case for back pay over that time is about £150K now.
It would certainly make my mind up about this c:mad: py Top 20 company,Pop pickers:Not Half:ugh:

[Gonzo]

people who this doesnt directly affect.
Doesn't banding affect everyone? :confused:

[Mahaba]

Sorry
I meant the comments from the people who arent affected by the move from Macc to NPC (as weve had in the past). The banding issue? of course it affects everyone who was 'classified' as one band or another. The point is...WE know it wasnt exactly fair to all...but was it and IS it legal?
If not...Pandora's Box

[Not Long Now]

People in other 'real world' jobs get extremely different rates of pay for exactly the same jobs. My other half's old company (in the city) had strict policy that revealing your pay was a disciplinary offence as all people on the same grade doing the same job were on far from the same pay! So I think that one's a blind alley. As for the mobile bit, well I know it's an old chestnut but you did sign up to it when you joined...

[Mahaba]

That's my point. I'm asking the same questions you are.
We may feel that we know it's not been right or fair, that's objective. What is not objective however, is wether it's been Legal.
If not...I would like to hope that we all get equal pay for equal work...WHEREVER. An aeroplane over London is the same as an aeroplane over Manchester or Scotland. Weve already proved beyond reasonable doubt that traffic movements do not account for the discrepancy.
I wish you well.

[Mahaba]

Im sorry but the mistakes of other companies and the mistakes of the past do not allow for the constant movement of progress. Just because other companies policies differ from ours does not excuse the fact that some of our companies policies are evidently unfair and detrimental to some of it's employees.
We cannot live in the past. If what we signed up to years ago is not now legal then our expectations must therefore also progress with the changes which have been implemented since we put our names to paper.
Progress. Hopefully for the better.

And it's unhelpful comparing our function or directive to other companies or organisations. I believe (disagree if you will) that our function is unique.
Therefore I also believe that our circumstances and our renumeration arrangements are difficult to compare to other companies who cannot perform our functions.

[Not Long Now]

As far as mistakes of other companies go, the specific one I'm referring to has an army of legal advisors etc bigger even than NATS management, who all fall over themselves to get into line every time someone in the european parliament even whispers something, so I'm thinking they know what they can and can't do. As for ATC being unique, I think the task itself may be but the fact is we're simply another workforce and so pay will always tend to the demands of that work force. The market may be limited, but it still sets it's own price. See what's happening in the gulf and down under, the world may be big, but people are still happy to move to where the pay is.

[Mahaba]

"Pay will tend to the demands of the workforce"
Trouble is...it doesn't.
Let's be honest...we don't leave because we can't get what we have elsewhere. In the 'outside world'. I know...I've been there.
BUT...that doesn't,and shouldn't be used as, justification for unfair and unequal conditions and remuneration for a function which is to all intents and purposes...the same.

[Mahaba]

The pay is going to be in Prestwick.
Does that mean we are happy to move there?
Prestwick may be enticing to some, I personally think it's a haven but it's not to all. Those people with families and working partners are being done a disservice in both pay now before the move and in an intellectual capacity where they are being treat like the idiots which they (and WE) are not. We are intelligent people. We deserve ( and should support each other in the fight for) equal pay, conditions and levels of respect. Our level of respect from our managers should not be dependent on the region where we practice our professional ability. We (YOU) deserve better.

[Gonzo]

Our level of respect from our managers should not be dependent on the region where we practice our professional ability.

No, and it isn't. It's dependent mostly upon the manager(s), and to a lesser extent the workforce.

We deserve ( and should support each other in the fight for) equal pay.

I'm not quite sure that we all deserve the same pay. I believe that would be impossible to argue.

[Mahaba]

We deserve the same pay if we perform the same function. If you think we do not deserve the same pay for the same function (taking into account the taking over of airspace and relative controller/aircraft figures) then i am at a loss to explain your reasoning and your motives. Suffice to say, from my point of view, that I would support you if you were in my position. If you choose not to support me (us,and that's not just EGCC but all that were and are affected by an unfair banding etc) then I wish you well but am pleased that I can look in the mirror and be proud of what looks back.

[Mahaba]

I read these replies and some of them make me realise that we will never go forward. We will lose to inside and outside forces . Because we will not protect our colleagues. We will never agree that someone...somewhere else deserves what we have. I just don't understand it. You may.
I don't.

[DTY/LKS]

I don`t see how you can justify someone working at a band one/two airport getting paid the same as someone working at a band 5 airport(EGLL) or Area Centre.:ugh:

[Gonzo]

My motives?

If every unit was paid the same as mine, why would anyone want to come to Heathrow? It is exceedingly difficult to find people who want to come anyway. Who would leave Luton or Manchester or Glasgow for Heathrow, without any pay incentive? That's one of my 'motives'.

[SonicTPA]

why would anyone want to come to Heathrow?

That's an interesting question! I take it that you are talking about the operational work, and the constant traffic etc...

Talking from experience, it wasn't the traffic or workload that I disliked. It was the culture, and the attitudes of a number of people there, that made me want to leave.

I'm sure that it is vastly improved now, especially thanks to people like Gonzo (and his waistcoats). I would actually love to go back and have another go, but the nightmares won't let me, especially as a lot of 'those' people remain.

I agree that a financial incentive is needed for people to move units. But that is possible without putting in a £30000 pay differential a year. That differential has divided the company in a very bad way, and actually made the reputation at Heathrow worse than it is.

The banding needs to be looked at, especially as the Red Barron doesn't actually know anything about it (He's been asked twice about it on barstool visits at my unit)

Sonic

[Gonzo]

That's an interesting question! I take it that you are talking about the operational work, and the constant traffic etc...

I'm talking everything.

For some, the constant traffic and increasing (almost by the week) difficulty might be an attraction (as it is for me - I'm a masochist like that), but that attraction would very quickly disappear if everyone was on the same pay, regardless of unit.

There has to be an incentive for other ATCOs to move to the busier units. If not, nobody would want to leave the quieter units, and then most trainees would end up being posted to Heathrow, where we haven't exactly had much success with ab initios recently.

especially thanks to people like Gonzo (and his waistcoats)

You mean all that effort I've invested in coming across as an arrogant imbecile hasn't totally succeeded??? :{

Maybe we should abolish pay banding and have a waistcoat allowance at the busier units? I'd be happy with that.......

[chevvron]

Agree with Sonic. There should be a differential, but it MUST be reduced. Also in the banding exercise, several units (Cardiff, Farnborough, Aberdeen)were artificially banded lower than they deserved due to the assessors being unable to assimilate certain types of movement which WERE covered in the FAA model.

[flower]

Chevvron the three units you mentioned to many in NATS will be considered very quiet backwaters, they do not have a clue as to what goes on at them.
We were promised that the banding issue would be revisited but here we are 3 years on and it hasn't been.
No one doubts that hard work should be rewarded but what is often not appreciated is that hard work isn't always simply down to density of traffic.
The banding model was so seriously flawed that you would have hoped by now it had been remodelled and a new assessment taken place, it won't be though because there hasn't been the will to push the issue forward as those who were seriously affected do not have the numbers to push the issue to the very front of the agenda

[chevvron]

Has it really been 3 years? As you say, we were promised a review; where is it?

[GT3]

There is a committee being set up as we speak to look at banding.

[SonicTPA]

Is it made up of Band 5 people, or will the lower airports actually get a say this time?

[Mahaba]

Doesn't it seem very co-incidental that just as the legality of the banding issue seems to be being looked for being discriminatory; a commitee is being set up to 'look at it'?
Talk about closing the stable door...

And back to my original point, it's not about whether some think others deserve the same as them or not, it's about whether it's LEGAL or not according to EU Law.

But...while it's popped up; surely Mr Baron must realise, or SHOULD realise, how divisive the banding issue has been and still is. If he really is interested in moving the company forward then he must know it has to be addressed. As in law...ignorance is no defence.

[MNT]

As far as I am aware it is legal for companies to pay different rates in different parts of the UK for people engaged in the same work. This just reflects the cost of living in those areas.
And as for the mobile clause I beleive there already has been a legal challenge to this and it was confirmed as legal.

[GT3]

Sonic it is not made up of just band 5 people. :rolleyes:

[Ppdude]

MNT...as far as I am aware the banding is not to represent different cost of living. I think we all agree that some people need slightly more to live in more expensive areas. This doesn't mean that I should get paid less for working my hiney off at EGCC when its just as busy as the next unit. The Banding was to represent different traffic shifting. Which as mentioned has been proved frequently to be flawed.

Surely if Postman pat was paid less money to post his letters in Manchester than cousin Patricia in London there would be uproar in posty land? Yes Patricia may have to pay slightly more for a loaf but they both shift the same amount of letters?

[chevvron]

Just had my council tax demand; just over 1600 quid. But I'm a Band 1 controller so how come I'm not paid more to reflect the cost of living in this area?

[throw a dyce]

Band 2 and Council tax £1900 and that ain't connected to the sewerage.House prices here are now 100% over asking price:eek: That's right DOUBLE.:eek: :\
Oh we have a Banding committee.Traffic was 5th busiest in UK the other month so stand by for Band 0 :ugh: .I've seen it all before.We'll get treated again like my septic tank.S:mad: t

[Not Long Now]

Blimey, wish I could afford a house with £1900 council tax!!

[MNT]

That does not mean much as this could be for a one bed flat in London or a Mansion in the sticks!

[begbie]

There seems to be a number of people who were happy to be on a mobile grade before they were actually mobilised... Sign the contract then moan when it doesn't suit..

[Mahaba]

I signed my contract over 38 years ago. During that time I have moved extensively within CAA/NATS throughout the UK. I have worked, controlling, instructing and examining in major airports and later in ACC's. Never once have I moaned about moving.
My original thread was hoping for no unhelpful comments about colleagues or generalisations about colleagues or places from people who this move does not concern.
My thread was not about wether I want to move or not, it doesn't affect me at my age; It was about wether the,
Banding
Mobile Grade,
was in fact legal.
That's all. Plain and simple.
It was not an opportunity for people to have a pop at each other.
Unfortunate that certain folk just can't resist that temptation.

[begbie]

Mahaba, it is laughable that you are questioning the legality of the banding system! What f*****g planet are you from!? Some sort of parallel idealistic atc heaven maybe!?

[throw a dyce]

Begbie,
I think you must already be in ATC heaven.Sounds like you did very well out of Banding.:D Good for you.:D
Some people got the S:mad: tty end of the stick.Their traffic is showing double digit growth PA,have to use mutiple ratings,and just got plain screwed by Prospect.I'm sure that if you have terms and conditions imposed on you,because the majority of people that voted in favour, were getting a far better deal,then to me it's a bit suspect.Given Nats/Prospect treatment of some smaller units,and the people there I wouldn't be surprised.
We all know that there is a lot of Skygods in Band 5 land,but have consideration for others on lower Bands.:suspect:

[Mahaba]

Especially as we have taken some of the sectors off our southern brethren that initially made them 'eligible' to be band 5 and actually move more a/c per controller (proven)with a far more rigid scratcoh system ( I'm not sure wether they even have one of those). To make matters worse, when our southern brethren visit us they are always surprised at how many working hours per day we actually work on the radar itself, manning the very same sectors they did...with the same traffic...and a third of the manpower.
And...though I may wish I wasn't, due to the unfortunate expletives, := I'm actually from the same planet as you. No need to ask which unit your banding is grouped into though...

[throw a dyce]

Begbie,
Or not getting paid for variety in traffic,the most diverse in th UK,yet the Band 4 center gets it.Or having 4 runways that can be used at the same time,but nothing for it either.
I reckon that I have to do radar,for NOTHING.Band1 tower only unit,which is Band 2 for people there prior to the agreement get the same,yet we are busier,have extra ratings etc.So I do radar for zilch.
All the lower units are looking for is fairness.Not a system that is purely engineered for centers and London units.The Banding issue needs fixed now.
Mobility,
Well the skygods put a big spanner in that cog,by insisting that people who are experience,OJTI etc,need to be assessed for stardom.Yet kids still come out of the college and go to Band 4/5 units with no experience,or assessment.If that isn't patronising staff I don't know what is.
No I think the person on another F:mad: ing planet is you.

[Startrek]

I hear the first meeting of the review committee is 19 April?:uhoh:

[tczulu]

Ah banding-I remember some years ago when a number of atcos from Jockwick Centre came down south to pick up the easy money on offer at West Drayton.As I recall(Alzheimers permitting)a nice round number validated--0 being the perfect round number.:ooh:

[AyrTC]

Although I was not one of them maybe it said more about the training "culture " doon sooth rather than the traffic :hmm:


Rgds

AyrTC

[Roger That]

I remember some years ago when a number of atcos from Jockwick Centre came down south to pick up the easy money on offer at West Drayton.As I recall(Alzheimers permitting)a nice round number validated--0 being the perfect round number
I can think of at least 3 (albeit from a pretty small number that I can recall having done so) to sucessfully make the move from Prestwick to either of the "LATCC" units. All of them, including those who failed to validate, did so for personal reasons not financial :yuk:
Jockwick help me with the relevance of this word .. is it a term of endearment, ignorance or just a simple racial slur:=

[London Mil]

Join the military and your 'banding' depends on time served. None of this "how many tickets, how many aircraft" malarkey. :O

[Fidgell]

It seems, from some of the posts on here, that the banding ensures you get paid more at units where you have to work with more foul mouthed, ignorant, unprofessional losers?! Minority accepted!:eek:

[mhk77]

Now before anyone shouts me down, this is a purely 'What if...?' scenario but something that crossed my mind!

With the Scottish elections coming up and it looking increasingly likely that the Scottish are going to do what we should have done a long time ago and booted Labour out of power, my question is this: IF the SNP get in, and by another quirk manage to get support for a referendum on independance which they won, how would that effect the MACC move to Prestwick?

One of the arguments that's regularly trotted out is that MACC is being 'moved to another country!' (which incidentally I don't agree with at this moment in time). However, this would be the case if Scotland were to become independant.

Now I know that the chances of the SNP getting independance are slim, and the odds of them getting it before MACC moves are slimmer still, but was just wondering hypothetically what the implications could be, if this was to happen...

[MancBoy]

Fidgell, I can definitely think of several people at MACC who fit all those criteria.

These people are everywhere in NATS I'm afraid.

Try playing football against the CTC and you'll find them there too!

[RAC/OPS]

Well one thing's for sure McMHK77, you'd need a Scottish passport to add to your collection, and hopefully a body cavity search by English Customs at the border! Never know where you may be secreting your stash of see you jimmy wigs!

[high-hopes]

I am not British and I don't need a British passport to work for NATS in Britain.

So why would you need a Scottish passport to work for NATS in Scotland ?

[RAC/OPS]

Because of EC directive P155/TA1k.

[wizad]

just a thought.

if a few on here complain about the banding as their traffic is increasing each year and believe it to be unfair.... do you not think that equally a band 5 units traffic increases as much?

all this about banding again... sounds like my last trm course.

W

[Shermanator]

Agreed, so there should be a band 6, put TC in there, as they are clearly the busiest and most complex unit, and they live in London (for now)

Leave AC in band 5

Who could argue with that??

I'm quite happy in band 4, so don't really give a monkies about the money, just the fairness of the formula did smart a bit.

[MancBoy]

Explain how TC are "clearly the most busiest and complex" please.

Why can't people validate on the west end if it is such a piece of p1ss?

[throw a dyce]

Because they are south of Watford.Thats all that matters.:E
Band 6? Whats that then?

[wizad]

because.. and lets be honest here.
the training at LACC is a pile of horse s**t.

ive been on numerous visits down there and it may be busy at times, as we all are. but its just not as complex as core sectors at TC. the amount of traffic shifted in the small and restricted airspace that there is, is the main reason.

and before i get shot down here, we have plenty of colleagues here who used to be valid in enroute and will openly admit that the TMA is a hell of a lot harder.

add to that the seemingly hightened enthusiasm to chop trainees at the first hurdle at LACC might be somewhere to hitting the nail on the head.
although we have a good training record,people do fail at TC also.

we all do the same job, just that some places are harder and/or more complex than others.

if someone who had 10 movements an hour was paid the same as me, i dont think i would be to happy about it.

W

[MancBoy]

TMA is busy and complex, I agree, but it is completely different from enroute controlling so they can't really be compared I'm afraid.

I've known valid people come from TC and fail to validate in enroute so how can it be that much easier? Nothing to with the training regime either.

TC=point at each other and expedite

AC=solving conflictions within a 10 mile airway whilst traffic is almost head on at 1000knots closing speed.(not all sectors)

I've seen DTY, for example, shift 67 aircraft in an hour. Yes, maybe not overly complex, but a lot of RT and not much room to play with as at least half were coming out of the cruise so doing over 400 knots ground speed

[MancBoy]

AC get more trainees than TC pal, maybe thats why?

Plus not at the first hurdle either, most people I've been involved with got chopped at level 4 onwards so whats that?

240 hours recorded training not including presvc and "free" time.

Thats why most validate at MACC pretty quick because they've had shed loads of radar time already.

[wizad]

if we pointed everything at eachother... we would not stay employed very long.

true, they are 2 very different disciplines to controlling aircraft... wont argue with that. but i would say you do need a certain sort of tough skin and a big set of you know whats to keep things going in th TMA.

W

[MancBoy]

I know mate, I was valid 3 years on TC North before I was shafted and moved into AC.

I was only ribbing about pointing everything at each other by the way.

[wizad]

''AC get more trainees than TC pal, maybe thats why?''

maybe because you have 2 ATCO's for every position? :E

we will always agree to disagree....its the whole them and us, pre programmed id imagine. nothing personal. its like the engish and the french.

when we move down the road, hopefully sector appreciation will improve between the 2 units.

W

[Fidgell]

Who's busier and better? Oh yeah and my dad's harder than yours!!!

For :mad: sake grow up will you! Im embarrassed we have so many unprofessional folk in our midst. :*

[wizad]

fidgell.... chill out.

its only harmless banter that goes on in here, at work, over the phones and in the pub.

its how we get by.

W

[MancBoy]

Your not joking.

Management decided on a T and P so nothing we can do about that I'm afraid, plus our Method Of Operations forbids us from having the electronic displays open on the Tactical display so you would end up operating off two screens and isn't that what happened in Uberlingen?

I don't want to get murdered thanks!

[MancBoy]

Fidgell, we weren't comparing ferraris, well not till Nov anyway.

Wizad, you seem like a decent chap, want to pop through when you are down and take a look?

We're not all ERIC's I promise!

[Fidgell]

Well if that's what you need to get by your in the wrong job! Im glad Im not down there, but would be nice to get the extra money. I believe in one pay for one job and all ACC/TCs should be paid exactly the same. Cant comment on the tower side as Im not clued up in that side of the ops. The banding module is highly flawed and unfair, why would LACC/LTCC staff care if MACC and SCATCC earned the same as long as they get enough?

[Gonzo]

Isn't this where the proper controllers join in and say that radar ATCOs are only TCAS supplements????

No?

Too obvious?

Ok then.......

[wizad]

well that made me laugh..... i only found out what eric meant yesterday.
that would be a good thing... once we are down, hopefully there will be some big initiative to famil with adjacent TC/EnRoute sectors rather than screaming down the phones at eachother.
cant say that for all of us though.... as long as we can still take the p**s out of eachother for being s**t.... then im happy. its what makes the world rotate you know.

alternatively, we could jump ship, wipe the dust off the tower ticket and go park planes with gonzo...:ok:
W

[wizad]

oh.... and why is there ALWAYS someone who feels the need to tell you that you are in the wrong job, i.e fidgell.
i didnt see the part on my contract that says i must be a clone and have the same personality as everyone else.
and if you want the extra money... feel free to come down here and get it. more than welcome.
W

[Fidgell]

You HAVE a personality????:eek:

[wizad]

sense of humour to!!!!:eek:

[Fidgell]

I guess you'd need one just to be you! Hope it keeps your world rotating!

[wizad]

nah... my band 5 salary and london weighting do that mate.

how else would myself and mancboy be able to keep the ferraris?

W

[MancBoy]

Wiz, look forward to it.

Hopefull sometime in the future, midlands and dty etc, will be sat at the console next to each other so if you give me a pile of s..t I'll be able to say it to your face and visa versa.

Come Nov some people will be brave if they forget that they are less than 100 metres away and not 70miles away.

[Shermanator]

TCAS supplements, parking attendants, my airspace is more complicated than yours, we get more trainees than you, and it goes on..... brilliant banter.

Anyway, as I said put TC in a band 6 just to be awkward, banding to be based on a CLEAR formula based on a sum which includes complexity, staff, and planes. No fiddles on then end to keep everyone happy. Thames radar band 5, amazing.

Banding divided and conquered the whole company, management split us all up, relying on greed, and they know it will work for the pension next.

That's how I see it.

A good point made above was, if you earn enough, why care so much what other people earn, mind your business, and enjoy your own life.

Fair enough?? Or way off?

[MancBoy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/5day.shtml?id=2326

brrr, bit chilly up there!

I'd be happy for Macc to get a new band, Band Fife, cos you'll be closer to that than here.

enjoy:ok:

well said sherm, I don't actually care what anyone else gets paid.

[wizad]

mancboy.

to true... im sure things will be fine and we will live in peace and harmony. you never know... there may even be a social side....

seriously though where do you get your ferrari serviced?

W:E

[MancBoy]

a nice little place in the new forest, although if you aren't band five you couldn't afford a mortgage to live here.

[Loki]

Alternatively, you could leave Nats at the earliest opportunity and spend the rest of your life laughing at the incessant squabbling....and some of the good humoured banter of course.

[MancBoy]

Hi Dad, how you doing?

[Loki]

Counting the money!

[MancBoy]

Can i borrow a tenner?

[REVOLUTION]

"Come Nov some people will be brave if they forget that they are less than 100 metres away and not 70miles away."
Are you a hard case then Manc Boy?

[45 before POL]

Have you seen the size of the guys on the west end on some of the watches.
Must be the air they breath down there:} my dads bigger than your dad.
Can we have a set of swing doors like the old days between TC and AC he.he

[MancBoy]

Not at all and I don't make out to be.

However, there are several guys on my watch who are way over 6ft 4 who I would never ever mess with.

Why Revolution are you?

I just think that a lot of people, both sides, are going to have to learn to be a bit more mild mannered come the end of nov.

[danceswithsheep]

As always the only way to end the debate about money is to make it available to all to move to a better paid unit! After seeing the beauty of West Drayton and the sunniness of Prestwick in the past i can only say, those on the south coast, enjoy!
You may get less money in the North but the working environment is(was) better, standard of living superb and its only a short ferry ride to Belfast!
MACC, i know people left Scottish for MACC(and then NAVCAN!!!LOL) and bad mouthed Scottish but see for yourselves and management know the gripes the staff have and the Union(future management) do try to get equality.
Give it a chance and if it sucks bad enough....there's always the desert!!!!!!!!
peace out

[REVOLUTION]

We're all very mild mannered in TC, if you have a ding dong you get fired!

[MancBoy]

"All very mild mannered", except for my mate on one particular watch who basically called me a c..t!

Plus, getting fired will apply to everyone not just TC.

Thats why I originally said people will have to be brave as they may find themselves on a disciplinary.

[REVOLUTION]

I believe come November relations will improve greatly between TC/AC.

We're looking forward to working more closely with you guys!

[MancBoy]

Are you being serious?

If so then us too, now we know where all the best bars are in southampton!

[REVOLUTION]

That sounds just the job, a massive drinking session where everyone can bond!

[45 before POL]

Will be good to see some old faces (and new ones).
Feel a pub crawl coming on!:E :E

[MancBoy]

just before crimbo too!