x-credit glider time

[kiwiblue]

A friends son is mad-keen on aviation and determined to get into it. He's almost conned his dad into funding a course through an 'academy' in the Hunter Valley. His dad asked me about it. I told him in my opinion sending a 13yo, no matter how keen to an 'academy' was a WOFTAM. It seems some of the young fella's friends are already at this 'academy' -maybe the parents see it as some sort of baby-sitting service, although how the operators of this 'christian' facility are able to look themselves in the mirror is beyond me. The 'sitters' I met on visiting this facility some weeks ago were little more than babies themselves. I am disgusted that a presumably professional organisation would set themselves up in this manner with a (presumably intended) ongoing income-stream for 5 years!!!

I told him I thought the best route for a young fella of that age would be get him into some gliding for a couple of years, then if he's still keen, he's well on his way towards a PPL at age 16 and CPL at 18, with the added advantage of being exposed to experienced instructors throughout and well-developed stick & rudder skills, and the possibility of being in an enviable position to gain experience as a tug-pilot on achieving his PPL and appropriate endorsements. He (the young bloke) seems less than enamoured of the RAAF path, more set on GA as a route to the majors.

My question here then is: How much glider time can be cross-credited towards an ab initio PPL issue?

Thoughts, please.

[vh_ajm]

Kiwi,

I did about 5 hours gliding before starting on powered aircraft. When it came to filling in my powered logbook I asked my instructor the very same question. She called the gliding club I had been at. She was advised the gliding hours should count one for one.

I could be wrong though...

[Miraz]

The book of words says:-

5.84 Private pilot (aeroplane) licence: aeronautical experience
required
(1) For the purposes of paragraph 5.77 (1) (f), a person’s aeronautical
experience must consist of at least 40 hours of flight time as a pilot,
being flight time that includes:
(a) at least 5 hours of general flight time as pilot in command; and
(b) at least 5 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command;
and
(c) at least 2 hours of instrument flight time.
(2) The 40 hours must be recognised flight time that was flown in a
registered aeroplane, recognised aeroplane, helicopter, gyroplane,
glider, power-assisted sailplane or group A ultralight.

[rmcdonal]

At that age I would suggest getting him into the Air Force Cadets. Cheapest flying anywhere.:ok:

[kiwiblue]

Many thanks vh-ajm and Miraz. Extremely helpful and pretty much in line with my initial thoughts also, although I had expected there to be some form of powered-flight minimum for issue of a powered aircraft PPL, or a corresponding max on the hours able to be cross-credited.


At that age I would suggest getting him into the Air Force Cadets. Cheapest flying anywhere.:ok: I agree, and exactly what I 1st suggested to the lads' dad, especially given the lad is active in the sea cadets, so has at least some idea of a quasi-military environment. However...
He (the young bloke) seems less than enamoured of the RAAF path, more set on GA as a route to the majors.

Again thanks, I'll pass the information on!

Having done both, I think 1 hr in a glider is the equivalent of no more than 5 min in a VH- registered powered aircraft.

Keh??? That to me is a very strange and misleading response! I am aware that there is generally a considerably lower hours-experience in a glider to 1st-solo than a powered aircraft. I would correspondingly expect an experienced glider pilot to 1st solo a powered aircraft in considerably less time than an ab initio powered trainee, much as I would any experienced powered pilot to probably solo a glider in less time than their trainee!

Whilst I have been flying powered aircraft professionally more years than I care to remember, I have only once flown a glider. It was particularly when the aircraft was launching (I was towed) and landing that I knew there was helluva lot more to learn about this gliding caper -let alone the upper-air work. Would I solo in 55 minutes? I doubt it very much; if I did, I would be very cautious of my own competence in the aircraft and definitely looking for more solid instruction.
As to your sugestion of an hour in the glider equating to only 5 minutes in a powered aircraft, I would have to question you on that also. I have flown (in powered aircraft) with experienced glider pilots and I assure you, their stick & rudder skills are far above average, let alone their forced-landing skills (field selection, wind judgement and height/flight-path required judgement). EVERY landing for them is a 'forced' landing.
Those reasons in part are why I look forward to my next opportunity to learn more from the gliding fraternity.
Further may I point out; should you ever suffer a BrokenConrod, there is a strong possibility you will then be flying a glider...

Regards

[Miraz]

Well, as an experienced power only pilot I solo'd in 55 min total time in a glider (Blanik). I have yet to see an experienced glider only pilot do the reverse

I am trying to do just that.....maybe throw in some prior experience in the operation of post-war vintage internal combustion engines and it could probably be done. :)

[kiwiblue]

All the best Miraz :ok: Would sure be keen to hear of your experience/ thoughts on the process!

[jarjar]

KiwiBlue,

You asked for peoples thoughts, he gave you his. I tend to agree, dont bother about gliding, spend the money elsewhere especially if the young fellas ambitions lead him to the commercial sector, they are completely different types of flying.

JarJar

[kiwiblue]

and in what way does that preclude me from offering my opinion on the reply jarjar?

[Richo]

hi KB

I strongly recomend your approach re the gliding.

I have a fair bit of experiance working with 15-19 year olds in both powered flying and gliding.
One of the main issues with adolesants in INTREST, which is likely to change over time, even for the most interested young person.
The fist recognisable step in flying training is the SOLO, this is achived at an earlier age in gliding and therefore keeps the intrest up, the following stages of recognition are also not far away inters of flights, time and money. For young people this recognition and intrest keeping (focus) is important.

Many of the skills learnt in Gliding (Hand -eye) and visual awarness of height and distance are 100% interchangable between powered and gliding. but the most important skills of judgment and disciplin in flying are undobtably higher in the glider pilot in early training, in fact much of the early training is completley about these thigs.

There is, as shown by an earlier poster, accreditation given in both the Regs and the training syllabus for a person who has recognised skills and demostrates them during training, going either way.

All the best for the young fella, and to echo someones comments earlier look at the cadet system for both knowledge and skills training.

richo

[scrambler]

Jarjar, As a glider pilot who went onto commercial flying I tend to disagree.

Some of the many benefits include.
-Stick & Rudder skills are well taught by the gliding fraternity. It will give the pilot a good insight into proper control use (esp those things you rest your feet on!).
-You actually do real stalls & spins and fly the aircraft in turns at slow speed (you can't afford to add 5kts for every one of your brothers/sisters etc).
-You would gain a good understanding of weather and knowledge of how to read what is happening.
-Airman ship & teamwork are also some of the valuable lessons taught along the way.
-Those teaching gliding tend to do it because they love it, not because they have a shiny CPL and instructor rating.
-Gliding Instructors (unlike many instructors) aren't chasing airline jobs each week.
-They also aren't chasing "Just one more flight" which equates to "a couple more $$ in my pocket".
-Relative costs are lower that equivalent powered hours.

On top of this the tailwheel time that would come if you were to go on to towing would be invaluable.

Back to the orig question. -I think with the PPL you may have to do all the Dual Sequences with exemptions on the Solo stuff (at least thats how it used to work in the RPPL & PPL days). You may require silver C & 300km or similar to achieve the exemption.

[Miraz]

I think with the PPL you may have to do all the Dual Sequences with exemptions on the Solo stuff (at least thats how it used to work in the RPPL & PPL days). You may require silver C & 300km or similar to achieve the exemption

I'd heard this too, but couldn't find anything in writing to back it up - the quote from the CAR that I posted earlier implies that all the time can be credited - so long as the relevant tests are past.

kiwiblue - I have worked out why it is not possible for a glider pilot to convert to power that fast - it takes CASA several months to sort out the paperwork! :ugh:

[youngmic]

Gliding and Air Training Cadets is IMHO they very best way to go.

I got ten hours knocked of my PPL back in the 80's because of my gliding experience. Seems it might be more these days.
But much much more than that is the quality training he'll get from some of the old senior's in the gliding movement who will teach him just for the love of the sport rather than a monetery or hour building reward. He will learn things about meteorolgy, aerodynamics, paddock landings, and composite stuctures to higher degree than your average GA pilot. With all due respect to the many above average GA pilots of course.

He will also develop a great feel for the way an aircraft fly's, and a true appreciation for the beauty of flight.

Regards
M

[youngmic]

[B]Broken Conrod[B]

Just goes to show, your 55 minutes training prior to solo in a glider was insuficient, as someone else pointed out. Maybe there was a reason they kept your training so short.:hmm:

Did they not mention you can't actually do a go around by just closing the airbrakes.:eek:

M

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I'm with the FracturedRoddy on this:

Gliding = Sailing = Electric Cars = Boring!

So tell us YoungMichael, as an experienced glider pilot, how long did it take you to solo a powered aircraft?

FTDK:cool:

[brown_hornet]

somehow convince themselves that they are not inferior to the powered variety of pilot.


BrokenConrod, your post seems to be the only one here that IS suggesting that glider pilots are inferior to power guys! I tell you what, you hop in the clapped out heap of wooden crap that I occassionally flew and put the speed brakes away and feel that power between your legs....yeah right, i've seen a brick glide better than the old Arrow:} Maybe that's why some in fact didn't make the field, if only they knew to put the speed brakes away:ugh:

Kiwiblue, I personally can't speak highly enough of getting a bit of gliding experience under your belt before hopping into powered flying and scrambler's post is pretty well on the mark. The experience the young bloke would gain would be invaluable, both in terms of flying and all the other stuff that goes along with the club activities such as teamwork etc. It also tends to have a lot more events / tournaments than your average flying school not to mention the different achievements to strive for (height gain, distance etc) which tend to keep you motivated. As for how many hours can count, I had about 80 or so gliding hours before my power flying training and when I asked my instructor I was told that unfortunately none of the hours could count (which of course I believed). I was young and naive though so it would certainly be worth checking out as it could potentially save quite a bit of cash.

[youngmic]

Bit long ago to remember exactly (and i don't have log books on hand) but it was under ten hours.

I wasn't a particularly experienced glider pilot at the time I started my powered training, and I only ever accumulated 300 hrs in sailplanes.

I shouldn't imagine that gliding would appeal to everyone, none the less the skills gained are very worth while.

Sounds like you've never been in a 18' skiff with a good breeze if you reckon sailing's boring.

M

[brown_hornet]

BC
Fair enough and believe me I do know where you are coming from. However I do believe gliding to be a great way for young kids to get involved in aviation if they can cope with a few of the personalities that gliding clubs seem to attract:E Personally, I was gliding solo before I could legally drive a car and was faced with my first 'outlanding' not long after solo (I still owe that farmer a beer for lost crop revenue!) and the skills I learnt over that year or two certainly helped my transition to power flying so maybe that's why I'm so pro gliding, if nothing else though it makes your forced landings that bit better:8

[Wizofoz]

14 000hrs, mostly transport Jet,
1200 Parachute Descents,
Advanced level competition Aerobatics,
Silver "C" level glider pilot.

The glider flying I've done has been some of the most satisfying, beautiful, and at times down-right frightening aviation I've been involved with.
BC, you've flown around the patch and landed. Put yourself in the Find-a-thermal-NOW-or-find-a-paddock situation, 100s of Ks from home and it's a whole different ball game.

[Wizofoz]

BC,

Not meaning to start a D1(K swinging contest, just pointing out that I have tried a fair variety of Aviation activities, and I feel your criticism of gliding is a little unfair.

Being a sport, glider pilots by-and-large aren't at a professional level of flying knowledge(though I'd stack them up against many Aero-club PPLs!!), but as an activity gliding is up there as one of the most enjoyable and challenging.

As to the parachuting, the majority of my exits were from Nomads, so you can see why I was happy to leave!!

[kiwiblue]

hmmmm...

many thanks to most of the posters -you're information is valuable and appreciated. The few who have tried to degenerate this into some sort of pi$$ing contest have shown the rest of us more of their own attitudes and maturity-levels than they might believe.

Those of you active in the Willy area will definitely see an new junior member in your ranks soon -and possibly on older, greyer, 'funny' sounding one too :)

Thanks again!

[tubby one]

Kiwiblue - for what it is worth. Gliding teaches one aspect of the art of flying exceptionally well, and that is ENERGY MANAGEMENT. It is not about how quickly a glider pilot can go solo in a powered aircraft or vice versa, but about the skills/knowledge that can be gained - and to say it again the single most important for the glider pilot is the management of energy.:p

[YesTAM]

Broken Conrod, you are trolling right? Having experienced gliding clubs and powered flying clubs and a lot of sailing, they all have their lessons and their place.

For a start, anyone who has solo'd in a glider will be just great at the "practiced forced landing" in the PPL.:}

[Squawk7700]

Other than the odd engine failure, I've never glided in my life, but I know for a fact that glider pilots make better students. Their stick and rudder skills are far superior and judgement / landing etc is exceptional. It's NOT a waste of time gliding.

You will knock off a number of hours based on competency. Could be 5, could be 10 or could be 20; depends how competent you are.

[Fliegenmong]

I was recently at a Gliding facility in SEQ, the three 737 Captains and ex F-111 driver who glide there did'nt seem to find it boring, but what would they know eh?:ugh:

Gliding is an art form. Pure stick and rudder, graceful, elegant, refined, the aesthetics of the aircraft are hard to deny, long and slender with all the right curves, and just like a lady you have to treat them well:}

Oh and this has only just occured to me, in a world so obsessed with carbon emmissions blah blah, aside from the tow to say 2500, the rest of the entire day can be spent enjoying flying, without chewing up fuel - brilliant really. Scrambler put it best I think.

[Fliegenmong]

You're a looney:} :confused:

[aircabbie]

Just reading this thread has made me look into giving gliding (CPL 500hrs)ago , just for a bit of stick , rudder and weather instructing from guys that want to teach it. would be rather interesting i reckon . Cheers guys.:ok:

[Fliegenmong]

Don't get bored :}

Seriously, I am sure you will very much enjoy the experience:ok:

[Miraz]

aircabbie - something to get you thinking - http://www.silentwingsairshows.com/video/sailplane.wmv

[VH-Cheer Up]

Agree with all those in favour of gliding. Teaches you all the basics and gives you a real feel for the aircraft.

Number one tip: Pay close attention when your power flight instructor shows you the stall recovery. You can always tell an ex-glider pilot when they do their first powered aircaft stall recovery! Firewall the yoke and you'll be staring at the ground in a Cherokee, where it's just SOP in a Slingsby (showing my age) or a Blanik or one of those new slippery glass ships.

Gliding with winch launches gives you great takeoff and landing practice. A landing every five minutes... While towed launches give you experience of a 10 minute near-miss!

Honestly, when you're 13, can ANY flying experience be a bad thing?

Air Cadets will also do a lot of the ground school stuff, probably teach him to stand up straight, march in time, polish his shoes and do a bit of ironing. Some kids get to shoot a rifle too which is pretty awesome.

Check the kid's feet. If the toes aren't webbed, trade in the Sea Cadets for the Air Cadets and get his aviation career started.

Iwas lucky enough to be awarded a flying scholarship from the RAF through the air cadets in the UK. Gets you to PPL standard - they paid for 30 hours flying at a civil flying club, four weeks, residential in the RAF officers barracks on the other side of the airfield. Four of the best weeks of my life in the Summer of '71. Sigh...

[kiwiblue]

Couldn't agree more Tubby One; but I wouldn't limit the benefits of energy management (I prefer energy conservation personally) solely to the gliding fraternity -practice it all the time, in every machine you operate. There's a lot of benefit and more than one occasion when 'a bit extra' up your sleeve is invaluable :ok:

[Pinky the pilot]

T'was a long time ago, 1982 to be exact but back then I had just over 300 hrs gliding, and when taking my log book into the D of A (or was it T??....whatever) offices and enquiring if any dispensation was allowable for a PPL, I was given 10 hours off both (I think!!) the restricted and unrestricted sections.

If memory serves correctly the actual requirement for the dispensation was a 'Silver C' certificate.

[youngmic]

Miraz

Great clip, enough to give a bloke leaky eyes!

M

[alidad]

BrokenConrod,
With an attitude like yours, you will bust your arse one day. All aspects of aviation require specfic skill sets and currency to maintain a safe operation. Just because I am current thousands of hours on a heavy jet does not entitle me to waltz out to a gliding club and jump in a glider without a few check flights to re-calibrate the MK 1 eyeball (did HUNDREDS of winch launches and aerotows prior to power flying).
Once new a nice bloke who had flown A4's, Mirages and Hornets; it was a humble hang glider that got him.

Miraz,
Apologies for using your name in vain! Nice shots of the Salto- Have flown one many times, but not like that!

[Miraz]

Errr...I didn't seriously intend to suggest otherwise - just re-read my contributions to the thread and don't see anything that does other than the video clip, and that is just for entertainment value.

[Supercala]

Great clip, The pilot would be Manfred Radius i believe. I had the pleasure of launching him a few times when he was in oz for the Avalon Airshow some time ago. It was alot of fun watching his display from an airborne vantage point.

For Kiwiblue and anyone else who may be interested, I started gliding as a young tacker, went solo at 15 and subsequently achieved my first solo in a powered aircraft after just 2.3 hours.

There is no doubt that gliding helped my flying in many ways, all of which have been mentioned above. And on top of that, despite what BC thinks, i enjoyed every bit of the experience and am still an active glider pilot.:ok:

[VH-Cheer Up]

Whether you like it or not, I am entitled to my opinion. IMHO, gliding is boring, and largely irrelevant to the operation of powered aircraft.
This is the epitome of thread creep.

The original post was about a young kid whose Dad was going to send him to some Jesuit flying academy. The question was about whether gliding hours count towards accumulated time for an ab. init. PPL.

Not about whether gliding involves going around and around. Which undoubtedly it does. And yes it can get boring and you can even get airsick.

Although for me all those downside points pale into insignificance when I've shared a thermal to 9,000 feet with a pair of wedge-tails and hightailed it back to the airfield at astonishing speed, executing a few gentle rolls and a couple of loops on the way.

If you don't like going around and around, you're probably not going to like flying heavies either. Anyone who's ever been stuck over the Gong for what seems like an eternity while YSSY sorts out all the early morning inbounds off the Pacific would understand. Ninety minutes of racetrack ovals on top of eight oktas is enough to bore the pants off anyone.

Gliding is undoubtedly an excellent precursor to aviation for a 13 y.o. And it's a good, inexpensive way for him to find out if he likes flying or not. Especially when the cost is being subsidised by the government through the Air Cadets.

No-one has said he, or anyone else, has to practice gliding for life, or to the exclusion of all other types of flying. It's a stepping stone on a lifelong learning path.

VHCU

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"How much glider time can be cross-credited towards an ab initio PPL issue?"

In my day you needed Silver C level to be considered for any credit.

Don't know what it is now. I generally have trouble figuring out the requirement for anything these days cause it seems to change all the time. Everytime I rock up for a renewal - something has changed.

BC - I guess a love of sh*t-stirring must be a part of the INTJ personality type also!

I do agree with you on the gliding thing though. I towed gliders for many years, but could not engage with the gliding fraternity on any other level.

However, I once raced the then Qld gliding champion over 50 nm. Him in his Libelle and me in a C150. I started my take-off roll as he stuck his nose down and headed off after taking an aero-tow.

My recollection is that I beat him by 3 minutes - pretty impressive.

Great clip of the sailplane above. I was particularly drawn to the V-tail !!!!

FTDK:cool:

[VH-Cheer Up]

I gave an Myers-Briggs INTJ Personality Type's reaction to an engagement with the gliding movement. A perfectly valid response and highly relevant to the original post - especially if the young fella in question also happens to be an INTJ.

And if he is, let's hope he eschews a flying career altogether and takes up a career better able to accomodate this "Type", thus making the sky safer for the rest of us.

[wombat too]

FTDK - Kiwiblue did indeed start the thread by asking what credit against PPL is available for glider time.
Since the amendment that brought us CAR Part 5 in 1991, any hours flown in a glider (sailplane - 3-axis controls) can be credits to the required aeronautical experience for the PPL - aeroplanes.
They can also be counted towards the aeronautical experience requirements for the CPL - aeroplanes, and up to a maximum of 750 hours total towards the 1500 hours total (and also the 100 hours command!) for the ATPL -0 aeroplanes.
Also, a gliding instructor who has flown 100 instructional hours in gliders is only required to fly 10 hours (instead of 20) mutual practice in the instructional sequences. (Same goes for a helicopter or ultralight instructor - 10 hours mutual practice instead of 20 to meet Grade 3 minimum hours to attempt the flight test.)
Before 1991 (when FTDK and other posters did it) you had to have a Silver C (5 hour duration in 1 flight, 1000 metre height gain, 50 km X/C) and 100 hours gliding to get a 10 hour reduction in the Restricted PPL time, and if you had flown a number of 300 km flights - 3 I think - you could claim a further 10 hours off the navigation training.
Gliding certainly produces pilots with good eye-hand and aircraft hadling skill, a good feel for the air they are flying in, and a respect for the limitations of the air. However, it is a time-intensive activity because it is an amateur sport, and there are now less full-time operators where you can book a lesson for a particular time, turn up, fly and go away again. This is one reason why the club environment leads to a faster gain in airmanship skills than when you are only present for your own lessons. Aero clubs also do the same - as does the full-time internship of some expensive schools and the now sadly lost Air Cadet Flying Scholarship system.
If the young bloke wants to start early, then flying a 2-place RA-Aus trainer can be done from around 14, with solo permitted at 15 - and many GA schools are now offering this avenue alongside more traditional training aircraft. :ok: The training is as good as the school, and again teaches a good feel for the air, while the standard of ultralight-only training has increased significantly in its 22 years of legal history. If he wants to fly an aeroplane for time reasons or any other, find a good ultralight school (maybe try both gliding and ultralights to see his (and Dad's) preference.
Wombat Too