Could Jetstar Leave JPC and join AIPA

[drshmoo]

Could Jetstar Leave JPC and join AIPA?

Considering the sentiment (right or wrong) that JPC has screwed their crews with even letting the J*int T&C even go to a vote. What would be the challenges in moving all of J* from JPC to AIPA? In other threads it has been suggested that they are and were welcome to join AIPA. The longer that the entities within the QF group have different union representation the greater the potential slide for "All".

Who represents National Jet? Does anybody?? doesn't appear so:ugh:

[max autobrakes]

Try AFAP...........

[blow.n.gasket]

Bueller,........

[Angle of Attack]

There already are some J* pilots who are members of AIPA albeit a minority atm, whether they all want to leave and move to AIPA is a different proposition. AIPA has a new reform group and they are heading in the right directions, but you cant expect all the Jet* pilots to move straight away after all AIPA has a checkered history in the past to accomodate these employees so they have a right to be cautious, I think it will take time but the current group are really working hard to accomodate as many pilot groups into the organisation as possible in the future. Hope it all works out.

[Crusty Demon]

The new group running AIPA are basically running a new organisation. There has been lots of bloodshed as they run a broom through the place, and still some of the old guard spend time trying to attack the new groups way of doing things. However, some really good people are there now, and things have certainly changed direction for the good since they have been there.

It (AIPA) is a total different ship now to what it was in times gone by. Most of those responsible for some of the deeds done in the past are not at all involved now, meaning that hopefully people can move forward and not dwell on some of the mistakes.

[excellr8]

Dito crusty, having been to the road show lately and even talking my mates at SS and J* there certainly seems to be genuine and concerted push to involve all flight crew area's in the Q group to achieve a common voice.

[Keg]

As it should have been for a LONG time now and well before J*, Virgin, etc raised their heads.

[DutchRoll]

Agreed, it should've happened some time ago but unfortunately big egos and plain short-sightedness got in the way. At least the current AIPA are having a go at progressing this.

Oh Lucius, Lucius, where for art thou, Lucius? Waiting eagerly for you to make some silly comment on the current AIPA!:hmm:

[permFO]

Angle of Attack has hit the nail on the head. There is too much emotional baggage on both sides for J* pilots to accept representation from AIPA. Before AIPA can be considered genuine in their attempts to unite the Qgroup pilots it should consider a name change- the I in AIPA I would suggest, is not relevant to a large number of J* Eastern,Sunstate or QF S/H pilots.

[Autobrakes4]

"Before AIPA can be considered genuine in their attempts to unite the Qgroup pilots it should consider a name change- the I in AIPA I would suggest, is not relevant to a large number of J* Eastern,Sunstate or QF S/H pilots."

permFO,

The "A" in AIPA refers to Australian, and the full title is Australian & International Pilots Association. Hence the pilots you refer to (who generally fly within Australia) actually get first mention!!!! "And" being the key word ! :)

Pedantic I know, but the title is all inclusive and doesn't just refer to long haul!

[Bazzamundi]

Things are becoming a bit quieter on the bruised ego front as some of the more vocal 'old guard' realise people are not at all impressed with the way they ran the show in the past and are retreating to hide in their caves somewhere.

The new AIPA people are more focused on looking after everyones interests, which can be seen in how more junior crew are listened to and looked after nowadays. These signs are positive for pilots of other groups. In days gone by, the 400 Captains club seemed to benefit the most from negotiations and agreements, with the belief you will all be senior and in that position one day so take the shafting we are giving you. This does not appear to be happening now.

To me, in my few years experience, this mob appears to be the most professional, open and so far accountable group running the union.

[019360]

So as an Australian pilot working overseas....would AIPA welcome me too? There's a lot of us.

Or....should this simply be seen as a good chance to begin the return to the single pilot union concept that built much of the best parts of Australian aviation.

[mustafagander]

Wait for the court decision. I am reliably informed that this decision is yet to come. The president will welcome you all - Jet* or who ever - when it is legal. That's what he said tonight over a beer or 3 - what better source can I offer?

[Keith Myath]

Could Jetstar Leave JPC and Join AIPA?

When AIPA resolve their conflict of interest (Growth of Jetstar seen as sacrificing Growth of Mainline) and come up with a proposal to fairly represent Jetstar pilots then I guess we will have a look at it. I don’t think that changing the rules to allow Jetstar pilots to join AIPA will necessarily open the floodgates. By the way, any proposal to fairly represent Jetstar pilots should not include the words endeavour (a ship that sunk many years ago) or intent (something you are in when camping). Not sure what the regionals’ think of this proposition, I guess they have been shafted enough that they would welcome anything that improves their lot.

[Casper]

But reached it was and from 12 July 1966 Australian Aviation conditions of employment for pilots changed their lives. Some rancour still existed at management level that pilots were now so well treated, but a form of respectful alliance had come to exist between officers of the Pilots Federation and the career Industrial Officers employed by the Airlines. One exception to the July 1966 Agreement was of course the Qantas pilot group and for them began a year of agony to achieve conditions of employment similar to their fellow members of the Federation flying the domestic airline routes.

Failure to progress in negotiations and management attitude stemming from the very top finally drove the Qantas pilots to a prolonged strike from early December 1966 which served to set a climate for further negotiations and in mid 1967 the Federation successfully concluded an employment agreement with Qantas acceptable to both pilots and management. The Pilots Federation had now achieved its major platform and would go on improving each segment of that platform of operating agreements to include general aviation and every aspect of flying in Australia.
----------------------------------------------------

Why did you QF drivers ever leave the AFAP?

[Truckster]

Casper, the number of current Qantas pilots who were around in 1981 is about 8% of the total.
To most QF guys the split is just an esoteric bit of history. Why do you flog that dead horse?

[Wingspar]

It's all about me!

If the option comes up then surely you must decide where your interests are better served. If the current representatives are doing a good job then stick with them. However I think some groups out there will be found wanting in the near future and only a combined stance will be of benefit to one and all.

Forget the ego's and be rational about it!

[019360]

Truckster....you said
"the number of current Qantas pilots who were around in 1981 is about 8% of the total.
To most QF guys the split is just an esoteric bit of history. Why do you flog that dead horse?"
I don't know you but would say that you have just shown wisdom way beyond your years in explaining the very philosophy that has put AIPA exactly where it is today. Divided, bitter, bereft, lost and with little to look forward to. All because the lessons of "just an esoteric bit of history" seem irrelevant.....to a professional group who should know better than most that history is our best teacher.

[Keg]

Crikey, here we go again. We get it. We've got it for at least the last dozen years or so. I'm pretty confident that the current COM get it. The point is it's no good pointing the finger at QF crews and saying 'you should have never left' when in reality the leaving means zero. That does NOT mean that we haven't learned the lessons of the time! :ugh: :rolleyes:

So take your best shot guys but I reckon that the current AIPA have been more proactive about having a united pilot group voice for this industry than any other pilot group in the last decade.

[019360]

Hope so.
Best wishes for the times ahead.

[mustafagander]

Come on guys, read my post #14. AIPA cannot and will not break the law. Others of the Qantas group are more than welcome when it is legal.

We do not need to refight the fights of all those years ago, let us ALL move forward - one Qantas group represented by AIPA.

BTW I hate the term "Qantas group".

[dirty deeds]

There is currently a court case underway in the AIRC. It covers this exact topic you are all talking about. AIPA wants the ability to allow anyone to join there union, and I mean all parties, J*, Vb, Eastern, Sunstate, Rex the lot.
But what is really interesting to read, and you can down load the transcripts of all court proceedings at the AIRC website, is that QF and VB has their legal teams working together, I say again, working together, to stop AIPA from being succcessful with the expansion application, at the same time, the AFAP has their legal team in their also trying to throw a spanner amoungst the works.
So its very obvious, the airlines do not want the Australian Pilot group as a whole to have a collective bargening power, and Unions don't want to loose their membership.
Now is the time if ever, to start a whole new Union, that circumnavigates all these power brokers and current Unions, and move forward in setting one separte standard for each aircraft type/operations and renewing our conditions to a standard that somewhat represents where it used to be.
The time is now.

[Pooonani]

Maybe AIPA 'should' use pprune as a launching pad to spread the word to the various pilot bodies. A lot of pilots also don't read pprune, but word spreads relatively quick amongst our industry.

I agree with Keith somewhat. AIPA NEED to put up a good proposal to the Jetstar guys to get them onside. A lot of Jetstar guys have read the 'mainline' section of Qrewroom and are well aware of whats been said in the past, and of late by a select few. I know people tend to hold on a little to tight to things that have happened in the past, but if things go to Dixons plan, Jetstar domestic & international will be a fairly big outfit within the next 18 months. Irrespective of if you love or hate Jetstar, its here.

I too would love to see the QF/JQ management get the pineapple for once, and the pilots get their sh*t together and we bring these cronies down a notch. It irks me no end that IF the APA deal goes ahead, the 'top shelf knobs' get close to 100 million between them. The thought of sharing it with the 30 000 odd staff obviously doesn't rate a thought with them. How they sleep at night has me buggered. :*

[Truckster]

Poon, the 100 mill is just what GD plans to get in the next five years. Try 500 million in total for all of them. There are 36 managers who will take 4.6 % of APA, so that is also not counting any profits they will get when they flog Jetstar off and return QF to the ASX.

Considering that they are paying 11.6 Billion now, and they are looking at a 20% profit, you can work out what that comes to, and why the stakes are so high. They will spend anything to keep pilots segregated.

[Keg]

A lot of Jetstar guys have read the 'mainline' section of Qrewroom and are well aware of whats been said in the past, and of late by a select few.

In that case they need to keep in mind that the 'select few' are exactly that and by and large not a representation of the pilot body. I wonder too if there isa touch of confirmation bias in all of this where J* pilots hold onto the negative comments made by some QF crew and yet don't actually 'see' the positive comments made by a significant number of other contributors both here and on Qrewroom. The beef is NOT against the J* crew but rather the management actions that have pilots so distrustful of each other. Imagine what the respective pilot bodies could achieve if we had the same relationship between us that exists between J* and QF management. :ok:

For record I disagree with the decision made by the J* crew to vote up the widebody variation to the EBA but then again I was at odds with 58% of the crew who said 'yes' to the last LH EBA as well. That doesn't make me want to do over the J* crew though.

[dirty deeds]

Sorry Guys,

But no one has really seen the importance of my post, forget the same old winge and rant. There are a group of VB pilots who are in the process of setting up a whole new Union, which they plan will encompass everyone and anyone who wants to join.

Once this is up and running, and its not too far away (almost registered), its up to the Australian Pilot body to jump on board and create one collective bargin.
There will be loss of licence, legal representation, etc, etc.
So watch this space.

[Pooonani]

Keg, I think most of the guys in JQ don't get flustered by whats said by the minority. Aviation attracts ego's & theres plenty of 'short man syndrome' it seems. I mean, take pprune for an example. There is a lot of negative comments made on here about the company, the service, the conditions, the pilots, the eba...whatever. The thing is, you don't see too many from JQ getting on here arking up about it. Most of the guys & gals are happy to be flying, and theres no shortage of people applying still. Yep the conditions aren't like SH or Australian/Ansett days. WIth Tiger looming, I can see not much being offered next round by the scumbags. What kind of guarantee would AIPA be able to provide to bring the conditions up to a satisfactory level?

In regard to AIPA wanting all of the pilots to unite. Awesome. But the ball is in their court. A lot has to be done (not just said) to pursuade them to join up, given certain conflicts of interest as Keith mentioned earlier. People can talk the talk. Can they walk the walk though. :ok:

Good luck, I hope 2007/2008 is a change of cycle & the pilots get the upper hand again.

[blow.n.gasket]

Dirty Deeds,
I agree in toto>
Could you afford spell check perchance?
Sorry Scoobs?.:eek:

[murgatroid]

There are a group of VB pilots who are in the process of setting up a whole new Union, which they plan will encompass everyone and anyone who wants to join.

The problem is that it will be seen as a VB thing run by VB pilots. Good for VB guys but what about others? What is needed is a group formed by representatives from VB, QF, J*, REX, regionals, GA etc coming together to start a new union.

Part of the reason AIPA will always have trouble attracting others is that it is seen as just a QF rep.

[max autobrakes]

Now everyone is starting to think.
As Dixon has stated time and time again, always back "self interest".
So why not use this self interest ,as it's a given ,and come up with a Pilot Union that incorporates the multitudes of "self interest" out there.
AUSALPA.
Separate functioning union councils looking after their day to day member issues and an overseeing peak council body.
It seems to work for BALPA and USALPA ,and Japan,etc,is it perhaps time for something similar to occur here in Australia?

[drshmoo]

Dirty Deeds -What is the legal restriction on AIPA enlargening its memebership to anyone?
Interesting times

[fistfokker]

VB pilots to set up new union?
What a farkin joke.
If the VB pilots are not happy with their current union (AFAP) it is because VB pilots in general and in large numbers take little or no interest in the operation of that Union. What would change. NOTHING. Nobody external to VB would take any interest in such a union. The same as nobody external would wish to join a formalised J* Pilot Group union. I have said it before and will continue bleating, until ALL pilots in Australia get together under one banner, in the interest of ALL pilots in Australia, then no progress will be made. Until AIPA and AFAP can re-unite then all is lost. Setting up a new splinter group is simply a waste of time and effort. Let us all unite in one excited voice, AIPA and AFAP, get it together, no more in-fighting, all members supporting the combined outfit, and go forward for the good of all pilots in Australia. I certainly cannot support any organisation that does not seek to represent ALL Australian pilots employed in Australia. I agree, let us put the past behind us and move forward as a united group, but let us not seek to destroy what is already in place. Surely a merging of those resources will be much more effective than attempting to sideline them.