cruise/junior first officer 4 J* [Archive]

lowerlobe

1st Mar 2007, 02:47

Going Boeing....

Without trying to start another pi##*@$
contest regarding cost of endorsements etc....Have you ever looked at the cost of setting up a small business such as a franchise.Even the cheapest would not be less than 250 K and that is a real cheapy.

You can easily throw away more than a mill and still have to pay a motsa in other charges.The amount of money that my brother has spent (borrowed)makes an endorsement look like petty cash.

Then after you have borrowed more than you would have ever thought possible along comes someone else and halves your turnover or worse.
We all realise that the race to the bottom is gaining momentum however I think you will find that there are no guarantees in any other career either.

The part that get's me going is the amount of absolute greed that pervades the corporate world.

If only I had gone into politics...now there's a cash cow :E

P2T2

1st Mar 2007, 03:40

Gents,

The Jetstar Int'l EBA that our friends at JQ were conned into voting up (by their own pilot council) provides for the following:

Wide Body Captain: $147,809
First Officer: $88,685 (60% of the captain rate)
Junior First Officer: $75,382 (85% of the FO rate)
Cruise only First Officer: $53,211 (60% of the FO rate)

Having spent significant time in GA, I know these numbers still seem like a lot. But I can assure u, that crews from just about every other semi-reputable airline in the world is laughing at anyone who would agree to work under these conditions (especially given the current global shortage of qualified jet pilots)....

"I'll just work there long enough to get a job o/s." I hear you say. That's fine but in the meantime, by condoning what the QF board are propogating you have contributed to the demise of the our profession in our country for all those who may wish to follow.

Think about what will be left when you are 45-50 and want to return to Oz to finish off your career at home...

Let the race to the bottom continue!
P2T2

onya

1st Mar 2007, 03:48

Wide Body Captain: $147,809
What a joke. I make more as an FO on a corporate jet. And it's not a private operation. First year pay is the same across the board. PIC's start on just under 200. An absolute disgrace. :ugh:

P2T2

1st Mar 2007, 03:52

oh - I forgot 2 mention...

For the privilege of being paid so you get to pay for your own endorsement as a bonus!!!

Anyone looking at applying should obtain a copy of their EBA and have a GOOD read b4 u sign on the dotted line. It actually makes for quiet a funny read!!!

pakeha-boy

1st Mar 2007, 03:56

onya.....ditto on the comments.....make more than that flying the A-321:*

Condition lever

1st Mar 2007, 04:27

P2T2

Mate.... I thought the race to the bottom began with your mates at AO.

P2T2

1st Mar 2007, 04:42

CL,

Let's compare apples with apples shall we..

FO's at AO make significantly more than a Jetstar Int'l Capt'!!! Not to mention they don't pay for endorsements etc etc

Additionally, when QF "offered" AO domestic bases (on AO conditions) in an attempt to undercut the mainline QF 767 operation, AO pilots displayed the integrity to tell QF where they could stick their EBA. Which is exactly what the Jetstar guys should have done when that joke of an EBA was presented to them.

Instead, they sore the opportunity for their own growth (whilst prostituting themselves relative to the rest of the industry) at the expense of those currently doing the flying on industry standard T&C's!!

I personally don't hold Jetstar pilots responsible as they're just doing what's best for their themselves / their families. The blame lies with the corruption within the JPC!! How the JPC leadership lied to their own pilots about this ficticious abundance of A330 crews standing by to do the flying should the Jetstar guys vote down the EBA is something that is unforgiveable!!! This is what happens when the leaders of employees are actually puppets of the company. As we all know the undeniable bluff actually worked...

Unfortunately as far as I see it, there's not much that can be said / done now (suggestions???). I'm just saddened to see the demise of the T&C of this profession relative to earlier generations.

The Riddler

1st Mar 2007, 04:58

Wide Body Captain: $147,809

I know most Qantas & all Cathay S/O's are paid more than this.

Oh, endorsements come free with these airlines as well.

P2T2

1st Mar 2007, 04:58

CP_Adi

Are u kidding?? U r geeing me up, surely!!!

$53K to do the job of an SO?? Let's have a look shall we at industry standard for SO's / Cruise FO's. But before that, let's have a look at the position of an SO to begin with!!!

A 2nd officer / Cruise only FO is a position invented by airlines (not recognised by CASA etc) purely so they can screw pilots out of not paying them full FO wages.

There's only a handfull of airlines on the planet who have managed to get this one through (CX, QF, others??). The majority of airlines have 2 roles, Capt and FO and pay accordingly. So the fact that QF, CX manage a 3rd role is a cost saving in itself.

This is something we've all grown used to as this little swifty was pulled b4 our time. So what have Jetstar done, divided it again by inventing a 4th division!!!

And you think that $53K, after paying for your endorsement and being subjected to the Jetstar Int'l rostering is ok???

This has to be a gee up...

Angle of Attack

1st Mar 2007, 05:21

When I was working 7 years ago Grade 1 IFR training in twins I was making around 43 or 44k by memory, dont know what it is now but 53k is an absolute joke! No overnight allowances? So youll be using your own money to go out and have some beers, with the left overs I think you'd hardly survive. GA guys can make more than this job, Now thats a joke!! One day Jetstar could be a stepping stone to GA haha!

Condition lever

1st Mar 2007, 05:25

P2T2

Staright question - did AO crews accept positions on worst T&C than QF mainline? What integrity are you talking about?

Where do you gather you info to state that Cruise FOs don't get allowances or any implication that you have to take RDOs away base?. I would suggest that you re-read the EBA if you are claiming to be an expert.

From the EBA:

25.4.1 If you are at a layover port, or assigned temporary duty away from home base, you will be rostered for days free of duty as required. We will use our best endeavours to ensure that such days will not detract from your basic entitlement to days off at your home base, except with your consent or at your request. You will be rostered for any days off accumulated under this provision upon return to your home base or where this is not possible, in the next roster period.

As such they cannot roster your basic entitlement for days off (9 days in a 30 day month or 10 days in a 31 day month) away base unless you agree to it and even then if you do agree to it then these days will be added to your basic entitlement for the next month.

slice

1st Mar 2007, 05:26

A Dash8 Qlink (Sunstate) 1st year FO gets about $50,150 base but with allowances and the odd call-in / duty extension it would go closer to $60K. Plus you get to take off and land every other leg!

Hmmmm.:suspect:

P2T2

1st Mar 2007, 05:44

The T&C of AO are NOT worse than QF. They are different. The cost savings come from increased rostering efficiencies and not a lower salary.

AO pilots are employed on a different type of operation and the T&C have been adjusted accordingly. The conditions (not the $'s) associated with the QF LH agreement would not permit an operation like AO to exist.

To compare what is occuring at AO to Jetstar is irrelevant as an AO FO's remuneration is approximately double that of Jetstar.

As I've stated earlier, I have no gripe with Jetstar pilots themselves. I'm purely making the point that the EBA under which they are employed is WELL below industry standard!!

Unfortunatetly those that defend it (without too much of a generalisation) are those who for whatever reason couldn't gain employment with an "industry standard" airline. However, just because you may find yourself working for a LCC doesn't mean you should accept this shafting. Stand up and demand a fair go!

Condition lever

1st Mar 2007, 06:09

Different???? Read lower!
Are AO 767 captains paid as much as mainline 767 Captains?
The obvious answer is no. Why then would anyone apply for this?
Because 767 FOs saw the opportunity to get a command upgrade and so were happy to take the pay cut (on a CP wage). To compare this with what is happening at Jetstar is not irrelevant – the pay difference is. Good on them if a 767 FO at AO earns more than a CP at JQ. It however is the same slide that you all keep blaming JQ with. It continues to amaze me the hypocritical attitude that writes this off as “different” and not the same as what has happened with the Jetstar crews.

Mate..... I am only here to attempt to correct the fallacies that you continue to expound.
Cruise FOs don’t get allowances – wrong.
Cruise FOs have to take days off away base – wrong.
At least get your facts straight.

P2T2

1st Mar 2007, 06:46

We are obviously arguing about different topics.

The fact that AO exists and that its pilots are employed under a different EBA than the company from which they came is not the topic of debate. AO T&C are still in line with industry standard!!! Jetstar however is not.

The T&C agreed upon by the Jetstar pilot group are below par, plain and simple. Anyone who thinks otherwise or tries to defend the abismal T&C are doing themselves (and everyone else in the industry) a diservice. Now that JQ Int'l EBA is in place the airlines growth will be exponential. This is at the expense of the opportunity to do the same flying under fair T&C that have been negotiated over the last 80 odd years.

Who started the trend is irrelevant. What is going to be done to buck this trend is something we all need to work together to achieve.

This infighting amongst the pilot groups is exactly what industrial relations managers work to achieve. Unfortunatetly given that an EBA has been signed and pilots are now working under these dodgy conditions, means that we all have our work cut out for us if we are ever going to achieve what is industry standard.

Condition lever

1st Mar 2007, 06:51

I agree.
The best outcome for all would be to stop this infantile pointing of fingers and make better moves for unification.
BTW what is industry standard???

P2T2

1st Mar 2007, 07:02

What I define as standard is the average of what other airlines pay their crew to do the same job.

Not 2 hard 2 find. Look at any crewing company and see what they pay their employees for doing the same job (we all do it).

Or simply google search "airline pilot pay scales" etc. The pay associated with almost any airline can be found online.

Try this one for starters: http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airlinepilotpay/

Believe me, u guys r being robbed!!! And the fact that you defend these T&C is what concerns the rest of us as it's sets an artificial benchmark for our own negotiations...

Wingspar

1st Mar 2007, 07:04

Are AO 767 captains paid as much as mainline 767 Captains?
The obvious answer is no. Why then would anyone apply for this?

Sorry but the answer is yes, they are paid the same as junior blank line Captains in mainline!

Conditions are different and that is where the saving is!

The agreement to crew AO is a successful way for mainline pilots to be flexible, exactly what the company wanted. If you are a mainline pilot and you don't want to go to AO then you don't have to. However the operation as I said is a form of productivity for the whole mainline pilot group! Do your time and then head back and enjoy mainline.

You question integrity, get your facts right to back up the argument!

virgindriver

1st Mar 2007, 08:08

Quote:
Wide Body Captain: $147,809
I know most Qantas & all Cathay S/O's are paid more than this.

Oh, endorsements come free with these airlines as well.

I would doubt it. You would have to be a hard working -400 so to achieve this and would probably include allowances...

The Professor

1st Mar 2007, 08:13

P2T2
You said this – “crews from just about every other semi-reputable airline in the world is laughing at anyone who would agree to work under these conditions.”
You quoted Jetstar FO salary thus - $88,685.
I know of a junior widebody FO employed by Air Canada who is paid less than this. I know a bloke working for SQ Cargo as an FO who is paid less than this. I know people working in MI,TG,MH and GA and none of them are paid as well as the numbers you quote from Jetstar, let alone Qantas.
Are these reputable or semi reputable airlines?
Onya said – “I make more as an FO on a corporate jet.”
Wow, where are you based. Who are you working for? I have flown LHS on various corporate aircraft (GIV/F2000) for reputable companies in high paying countries but I have never been paid as well as you.

P2T2

1st Mar 2007, 08:35

Virgindriver:

True, a 1st year QF SO would struggle to do JQ Int'l command wages.

But for the purposes of informing an industry in a country that has seemingly been brain washed by their own management, believe me QF is not the only airline who's SO's would be doing better than JQ command wages. Not bragging, just informing.

JQ have sold themselves short!!! and anyone that thinks otherwise is ill informed. Unfortunately this has now set the bench mark for QF and VB when they negotiate future EBA's.

By the way, good on the VB drivers for having the spine 2 stand up 4 what the believe to be fair T&C. Good luck with it all!!!!

The Professor:

Having worked in the contract world and having many friends who are still employed their, don't be fooled into thinking that $88K AUD for an A330 with Oz tax is fair pay. There was never a "crewing company" on standby to crew JQ Int'l in the event that the lads voted down the EBA. That was corruption at it's best!!!

Once again check: http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airlinepilotpay/ and/or any recruitment agency site that shows pay rates. It's all there.

It's up to all of us to bring Av'n in Oz back in line with international standards. For too long we have let our own airlines bluff us into thinking that SARS, 9/11, LCC's, Fuel Costs etc are an excuse for us to except pay freezes and/or crap EBA's.

Don't ask me how (I'm not that smart), but hopefully someone will figure it out...

OBNO

1st Mar 2007, 08:37

I can't imagine too many RAAF/Navy/Army blokes taking up this offer. $30,000 odd to pay for an an endorsement to then earn $50,000 - that would be about a 50% pay cut.

neville_nobody

1st Mar 2007, 09:07

If I was a QF cadet I would be very worried right now as they may find themselves being siphoned off in this direction similar to Jetstar Asia.
Imagine, paying $100 000 for your training, $40 000 for the A330 endo to then get paid $50 000 odd a year.

The Professor

1st Mar 2007, 09:33

P2T2

There is no such thing as fair when it comes to market forces determining the salary levels of those rendering services. The market decides.

You said – “Having worked in the contract world and having many friends who are still employed their, don't be fooled into thinking that $88K AUD for an A330 with Oz tax is fair pay.”

You are not making a rational comparison. Contract companies generally pay higher salaries to attract employees, the obvious downside being that the employee understands that the position is finite and nearly always in a location where a premium must be offered. Air Vietnam/Korean etc don’t pay the money they do because they are career positions. Full time positions at home in your own country are where most people work and will accept lower pay as a result.

The website you offered actually undermines your argument. None of the newer or upstart carriers on the list pay as well as Jetstar do, taking into account tax and cost of living. Even at Northwest, an FO would need 3 years seniority on the A330 to achieve first year salary at Jetstar.

P2T2

1st Mar 2007, 09:45

G'day Professor,

I understand your point regarding contractual employment. There is a LOT to be said for living / working in your own country. However a happy medium would be nice.

Considering remuneration for FO's on contracts jobs is usually in the ball park of $8-$10 K / month USD tax free and includes accom' etc, this is a LONG way from $88K AUD pa, living in Oz with our tax system.

Regarding Northwest; they're not the best example to compare with ie Chp 11 protection etc.

Anyway, I'm done arguing. Hopefully I've made my point.

Cheers

Dynasty Trash Hauler

1st Mar 2007, 10:19

Errr, nope. No points made. You did however manage to show how out of touch you are with the industry.

Any comparison to the US industry (where I now work) is doomed to fail. I have never worked in oz but I have a lot of buddies that do/have and I have to say - even Jetstar salary levels are better than the way the US is heading.

I just left a job in Asia and it sounds like fellahs like P2T2 are just kidding around with FO pay at 10 US per month tax free.

Try about half of that or less.

787 Captain

1st Mar 2007, 10:42

Quote:
Wide Body Captain: $147,809
I know most Qantas & all Cathay S/O's are paid more than this.

Are you sure about this? The following is from the Pilot Career Information Booklet on the Qantas website:

Pay for Qantas Pilots
We are often asked – How much does a Qantas pilot earn? The following is a guide on the average yearly salary depending on fleet type.

• Second Officer - $70,000 -
$100,000 per annum
• First Officer – $90,000 to
$150,000 per annum
• Captain - $200,000 + per
annum"

787 Captain

P2T2

1st Mar 2007, 10:44

DTH,

At no stage did I make a comparison to the industry within the US (different market forces are in play there). Most contracts just pay in USD (I assume that's where u became confused).

However since you mentioned it, there are contracts with US basings paying the $'s I was referring to:

http://www.hawaiiaviation.com/positions_contractsummary_ncab747fo.htm

Additionally, by having a look at a few recruiting agencies (below) and making a few enquiries, it's easy to conclude that although there is a conceded pay cut for working in Oz, the JQ EBA is still a joke.

[url]http://www.rishworth.co.nz/opportunities/oppslist.asp?cat=1
http://www.directpersonnel.com/
http://www.contractair.net/public/index.html
http://www.davikflighttraining.com/vacancies.htm
http://www.bettsrecruitmentltd.co.uk/vacancies.htm
http://www.stormaviation.com/index.php
http://www.parcaviation.aero/aviation/FlightcrewJobs.asp
http://www.pas-aviation.aero/library/frmsets/frm_welcome.html
http://www.sigmaraviation.com/
http://www.iacglobal.com/vac.htm
http://www.world-airline-services.com/

The points I make are:

1. The JQ pilot body was conned into signing off on a dodgy EBA for their Int'l operation (by their own pilot council)

2. These artificially low conditions have now become an adverse benchmark / bargaining tool used by airline industrial negotiatiotors for other airlines in the region.

Anyone disagree??

Keg

1st Mar 2007, 11:24

Someone said to me the other day that J* conditions had put the aviation industry back by a decade WRT terms and conditions for crew. That's about right because I became a QF F/O in '97 and earn't about $88K that year....and that was year three F/O pay. :E

TurbTool

1st Mar 2007, 12:39

I would disagree with the 2 points made by P2T2.
The J* pilots were not conned by their Pilot Council at all. They were told quite simply that the deal on offer was the best deal they had been able to negotiate. The JPC had sought better T&Cs but were unable to reach agreement with the Company. The Company put the EBA amendment to a vote of the pilots and the pilots voted it up. The JPC made no threats regarding an external crewing company. In fact the JPC (at that time) would have been happier to see the pilots reject the EBA amendment. The Company implied that a NO vote would see a greenfields international operation. Not the JPC. The pssibility of external crewing may have been the private opinion of individual members but the JPC did not put that up as a unified council position to the troups.
As to why the pilots themselves would vote it up. Many in the company at that time had lost jobs and careers when AN collapsed and had been dispersed throughout the world. They had come to J* on short term commands and prospects. Here was an opportunity to shore up their commands. Some already in J* (from Impulse days) saw an opportunity to fly larger aircraft on international operations. Something they would not otherwise have done. Just because a pilot does not get thru the selection process for QF does not mean he/she cannot fly, or do the job. They do however, get sick of being told they are not good enough and then expected to forego what they can get, in order to shore up the position of the very people jibing them for "not being good enough" whatever that means.
The J* pilots were not conned. They chose to vote up the EBA amendment.
Regarding point 2. It may be valid to a cerain extent however VB have been around longer than J* and had an EBA before the Impulse people did. NJS have been around even longer with AWAs. Both of these set the standard benchmark before J*. Benchmarks of this nature do depend on supply and demand. There is no such thing as Industry Standard. That is easlly demonstrated by the large variations in T&Cs around the Asia Pacific region.
What dollar value does one put on living and working in Australia. I know some people who say $100,000.00 a year. Add that to the J* salary and it is not so shabby.
The AO argument falls flat in my view. It may be different to QF but still overall it is inferior. So before anybody puts down the J* people, in my opinion, No Qantas pilot should have taken a position with AO. Otherwise you are simply arguing degrees.
Also in my opinion, very few of the current QF pilots, VB pilots, and J* pilots for that matter have actually fought for terms and conditions. Understandably that is a thing of the past. I sincerely doubt that if the positions had been reversed, that the outcome would have been any different.
The whole bleating from the QF pilots reminds me of the CX employment ban of a few years ago. While actively discouraging hopeful wannabies they were accepting promotions within created by the same vacancies they were banning over.
While not QF pilot bashing it does seem to me that group is the most vocal. This is understandable as they have the most to lose. I wonder if they had not splintered the pilot voice in this country many years ago would things be different now.

P2T2

1st Mar 2007, 13:01

TurbTool,

Thanks for your response. Even though we obviously differ on our view points, I do respect your opinion.

For those who've read my earlier posts on this thread, you will see I've had a fair spray. Perhaps I've let my frustrations get the better of me (should've hit the bottle instead).

What I've written is in no way meant to be a personal attack on JQ pilots themselves. If what I've said has come across that way, I sincerely apologise as this was not my intent. We are all in this stinkfest together and should work together collectively to improve ALL of our conditions.

Cheers

position & hold

1st Mar 2007, 23:14

Does anyone know of the link to view the EBA online? I think all of us considering interviews should read it carefully before we make a decision,

Cheers all,

P & H

excellr8

1st Mar 2007, 23:51

Maybe we can all move to what happens to low paid staff in the US. Their pay is substituted by tips...Maybe the CSM can stand at the door with a tip Jar and we can also value add to the process by using all that space up the aerobridge where the rest of the cabin crew can busk. The flight crew will not be involved in this process as they will have already provided the entertainment after having only spent min time in the sim for the endorsement....hence landing practice reqd.

freddyKrueger

1st Mar 2007, 23:55

The agreement is HERE (http://www.airc.gov.au/tracee/agreements/pdf/AG843278.pdf).
This has subquently been ammended to include "widebody" operations. Unfortunately I cannot put my finger on this ammendment at the momement.
Think very very carefully about what you are signing up for.
There are lots of opportunites elsewhere that to give you a far greater return on your training investment.
Further "cruise FO" time will be regarded just the same as SO time, which is not really worth a pinch of sh#t in the contract world. You effectively will be locked in at your current hour experience level until you get sufficient "hand on stick" time as a full FO.

Casper

2nd Mar 2007, 00:05

I wonder if they had not splintered the pilot voice in this country many years ago would things be different now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
THAT says it all!!

excellr8

2nd Mar 2007, 00:48

Splintered or not, many of the younger guys and gals realise that working together is far stronger than isolated interest groups grappling for the last dollar. I think we are all far more knowledgeable about the commercial realities of aviation and hence the need to be flexible (meaning being open minded to new idea's) and that’s just a generational fact as globalization effects us all far more than it used too. So in effect we are facing bigger challenges as companies take on a greater global footprint.....which brings me to my point which is as they get bigger we must get bigger and become smarter. For us in Oz if we don't find some sort of unity all we will get are echoes of our own frustrations....because no one will listen. Jetstar is here to stay it's brought a lot more people into the traveling public, it's not management fault it works (sort of) it's the people who pay the money to sit in the seat. What our challenge is not to squash jetstar but to prove our value and we can only do that by putting up a united front then arguing our case for it.

DutchRoll

2nd Mar 2007, 01:03

Wide Body Captain: $147,809
I know most Qantas & all Cathay S/O's are paid more than this.
Bullsh**. I was a QF 747-400 S/O for over 5 very recent years and never grossed that much. Including all allowances, overtime, etc. And 747-400 S/Os are on the top S/O pay scale in QF (and in fact are paid more than some F/Os from other types such as the B767!).

Crikey I'll even email you a copy of my final S/O group certificate (which shows allowances, etc) if you want!

excellr8

2nd Mar 2007, 01:05

podbreak

2nd Mar 2007, 01:31

787 captain,

With allowances, and lots of overtime (LAs galore) its possible for a 400 SO to gross almost 140K.

53K as a cruise FO? If this is as silly as it sounds, surely they'll have trouble recruiting.

touchncloth

2nd Mar 2007, 02:23

For last year the highest S/O gross pay was up towards 160k (all up) while the lowest was about 70k. Big variance depending on Fleet type/ rotation/seniority/ lifestyle choices.

Even 70K is better than an A330 Cruise F/O figure. I hope their are plenty of add ons and allowances to bring the total up. Paying off a loan for an endo while living in Sydney can put big restrictions on your social life.:uhoh:

brisbane observer

2nd Mar 2007, 03:50

ahahahahahaha, who earnt 70K??????? Wouldn't be mainline.....not even A330 surely.

787, 70-100 is pretty wrong. Most of my friends and I (-400) ie. same seniority, earnt around 118-120K 1st year and above that for the years after. It is dependant though on blank lines and aircraft type. The -400 will generally be busy on a Blank line therefore you end up earning more than you would on a pattern.

Its all about the facts, plenty of bullsh!t on here...

Bula

2nd Mar 2007, 04:08

hey guys and gals, try this on for size

Cruise FO is a bit of a wrought

Where can I be in 6 years if I had decided not to join Jetstar and maintained my current employment vs taking the job. Eveyone here agrees that you will be earning more as an FO with J* then most regionals. QF hasn't recruited in years and when they finally so it will still be 8+ years + for an SO to become and FO.
Now say your in a regional you 6 year earning potential will be close to this:
1) FO for 6 years, with high seniority and the possibility of a command in a couple of years, $360 000 or
2) FO for 3 year min with 3 years Captain $450 000K
3) A couple of years in a regional then to an oversea airline with no Tax as an FO $560 000.
compared to J* FO including endorement cost
5 years FO, 1 years Captain: ($440 000 + $150 000) - $40000 (endorement with interest) = $550 000...
And you wouldn't join why? Short term it just make plan sense for people barely scarping $280 000 over the same period. Besides beats paying 10k with skippers for casual work.

Going Boeing

2nd Mar 2007, 07:37

Rumour doing the rounds is that QF will start employing in the second half of the year and require 200 pilots. I understand that some of those who are on the hold file have been offered Jet* positions. For those who want to join mainline then it may be worth holding off a bit because if you accept Jet* there is no way that they will let you transfer later on.

redsnail

2nd Mar 2007, 08:12

Cruise FO at $A88K.
I do earn more than that as an FO on a business jet in Europe, plus I get allowances and the endorsement's paid for by the company.

Dragonslaver

2nd Mar 2007, 09:08

At Dragonair we don't do any longhaul flying, so cadets (one stripe Second Officers who are HKG residents trained from scratch at KA expense) are dumped straight into the RH seat of A330's with a grand total of around 250 hours total aeronautical experience. For this they receive the princely sum of of HKD22,000/month (about HKD6=AUD1) +medical+annual 13th month bonus, rising to about HKD57,000/month over 4 years (when they are effectively First Officers).
Line Captains operate as untrained and unpaid Training Captains (although a token 30 minutes of once only sim time is dedicated to landing upset recovery).

787 Captain

2nd Mar 2007, 10:27

Quote:
"ahahahahahaha, who earnt 70K??????? Wouldn't be mainline.....not even A330 surely.

787, 70-100 is pretty wrong. Most of my friends and I (-400) ie. same seniority, earnt around 118-120K 1st year and above that for the years after. It is dependant though on blank lines and aircraft type. The -400 will generally be busy on a Blank line therefore you end up earning more than you would on a pattern.

Its all about the facts, plenty of bullsh!t on here..."

Ok, my bad. I thought that given that the info came from Qantas it would be fairly accurate, apparently not so. At least I know now. :ok:

787

Jetsbest

2nd Mar 2007, 11:35

No, you're not all wrong. I suspect it's more a case of apples & oranges comparison. The QF website pay you quote is close for projected 'base' pay and covers the variation due to aircraft type (767 vs 744), but perhaps doesn't include things like;
- overtime for lengthy tours of duty prevalent on the -400, and
- meal allowances etc, which for a busy year can amount to A$15K or more (ie lots of time away on duty in expensive places).
Hence some folks here are quoting and apparently gloating over gross income without taking subsistence costs out, some are gleefully proud of the small numbers but not mentioning the loadings.
Everyone has an angle...:hmm:

OBNO

2nd Mar 2007, 21:34

I would say the most junior So's on the Classic who have been rotating between Blank and Reserve lines for the last 18 months would be very close to the $70000 mark.

greencandreaming

2nd Mar 2007, 23:17

How in the hell can you count a meal allowance in your wage , dont you eat when you are away

Mstr Caution

2nd Mar 2007, 23:26

What next. Jetstar International S/O's at 60% the cruise F/O rate?

Quite appropriate me thinks, providing a title cruise F/O at Jetstar.

Joe public will be spoon fed the line "Jetstar First Ofiicers are paid $53,211 on initial appontment whereas Qantas First Officers are paid $200,00 plus. Qantas will therefore be seeking convergence to the more reasonable Jetstar First Officer pay rates."

Spin Spin Spin. :8

B A Lert

2nd Mar 2007, 23:29

How in the hell can you count a meal allowance in your wage , dont you eat when you are away

If Qantas longhaul crew spent all of their meal allowances on food - after all, that's what they are for - they'd be the some of the most obese people in the world. If you saw what they collect,in addition to a daily travel allowance, you too would be banking a lot.

touchncloth

2nd Mar 2007, 23:31

How in the hell can you count a meal allowance in your wage , dont you eat when you are away

I think it is appropriate to compare the entire salary-including all the components.
Interested to see how a 'cruise F/O' pay adds up with all the inclusions.:confused:

Mstr Caution

2nd Mar 2007, 23:52

Someone needs to remind Jetstar that EK is in town looking for drivers, QF is reported as saying they are looking for 296 pilots over the next 3 years.

They'll have problems retaining crew, let alone filling the cruise seat warming positions. :8

BTW - Why were Jetstar International operating 3 Captain crew last week? Training or crew shortage or both?

B A Lert

3rd Mar 2007, 01:38

The MNL allowance is around AUD85 per day but the AUD equivalent is meaningless, totally meaningless. The allowances are based on the local currency price of meals that are available in the crew hotel and are based on a specific formula. What's more, they do not consider any discounts the hotel may offer crew. The 'drinks' the allowances are meant to cover are tea and coffee with your meals. Other drinks during the day such as water and a mid-morning or mid-afternoon coffee are charged to your ODTA. Do you drink JW Blue label?

The less crew speak and belly-ache openly about these allowances the better as most would see them as pretty bloody generous. Maybe you would prefer to go onto 'actuals' as do many staff on duty travel/Company business and only get their money back upon production of a receipt for meals actually consumed?

Keg

3rd Mar 2007, 02:11

ROLFMAO @ BA Lert. Reasonable actuals are a threat that gets trotted out every now and then. They won't ever occur for crew for at least two reasons.

1. Administrative overheads to administer. Imagine the numbers of personnel required to keep track of 7000 plus crew.
2. That they are open to considerable rorting. I know of a bunch of examples. I won't provide details on this forum.

You are right about crew going on and on about them. Most people outside the industry don't understand the concept.

B A Lert

3rd Mar 2007, 02:21

G'day Keg! Totally agree with your two points but crew would certainly know how well off they are now if they henceforth had to adopt an "actuals" regime.

As for your comment "Most people outside the industry don't understand the concept", might one suggest that you amend it to read "Most people don't understand the concept, including staff."? Those on unaccountable per diems just don't know how fortunate they are, and pity help them if they have to go to the ATO standards; these rates vary according to annual salary which means the the better one is paid, the better can eat. What a load of cr@p?

Allowances are where Qantas can save heaps so I can only repeat that crew really ought to shut up about them before the goose that laid the golden egg is killed or (no pun) laid off! If in any doubt as to the accuracy of this statement, have a look around and see what other companies crew are paid for their allowances.:ok:

Keg

3rd Mar 2007, 03:51

Lert, we are 'accountable' from the tax perspective. Anything above the applicable ATO SES/SEC rates see us taxed at marginal rates. I agree it's a joke about earning more means you're entitled to eat more. Surreal in fact.

rammel

3rd Mar 2007, 23:31

If the allowance does not cover meal costs at the crew hotel, perhaps you could eat outside the hotel. Now I'm sure the company recommends that you only eat at the hotel, so if you get sick turn it back on the company. If this then gives the company a crewing issue, so be it. It is their fault for not paying enough in allowances to eat at the place they recommend.

podbreak

4th Mar 2007, 03:20

QF hasn't recruited in years and when they finally so it will still be 8+ years + for an SO to become and FO.

Alot of people on these forums are thinking this way. I can tell you with a great deal of confidence thats is a very incorrect figure. Provided there aren't anymore significant setbacks, you can halve that figure.

topgun0007

4th Mar 2007, 03:34

P2T2, you have sprayed a lot of sh88 here, and whilst it makes interesting reading, can someone please explain the following:

Given that according to the learned comments on this forum, we are in the grip of a world wide pilot shortage, and given that apparently, every other airline in the world is paying so much better;

Why is it that from all accounts (friends I have in J*) very few JQ pilots have left for these greener pastures?

Additionally, as far as I am aware, everyone gets paid overnight allowances and having seen several JQ domestic captain group certificates average salary appears to be around AUD155K (including O/T and not O/N allow.) which would, all things being equal equate to approx. $172K 'ish for a JQI captain.

Still have not come across one guy who has his days off upline either.

Will have to wait unitl end of 06-07 financial year to assess JQI group certificaes, but this seems to be the way it is panning out.

oicur12

4th Mar 2007, 03:35

"The MNL allowance is about 2000 pesos per day which on today's exchange rate, 38.6 PhP to the AuD, is $53 AuD."

"Last time I was there, year or so now, this was not enough to eat in the hotel. Basic breakfast was 15, lunch about 25 and dinner about 35 so no go."

The irony being that your daily expenses, which apparently are not acceptable to you, constitute the monthly income of most people living in the Philippines.

Such is life.

Johhny Utah

4th Mar 2007, 06:13

podbreak - there are a stack of guys who are well and truly more than half way to the 8 year mark, with absolutely no sign of an FO slot in sight. As an example, the last 767 FO slots (all 3 of them for the whole training year!) went to guys who are around the high 1600's in seniority - meaning they joined in 2000.

However, as a means to ease the pain whilst waiting for an FO slot, earning solid $$$ as a S/O goes a long way I guess... while it lasts :eek:

podbreak

4th Mar 2007, 10:57

JU, I'm aware that the current status of limited movement has resulted in this, but I was referring to future employees. I take it that is what the poster had in mind. With the new aircraft on the way, there is likely to be substantial movement, similar to that seen 99-01. People are free to deny this until they are red in the face, but if I were a young SO right now or a future employee, I wouldn't be too concerned.

neville_nobody

4th Mar 2007, 11:17

Johnny

You sure those blokes you are referring to aren't cadets. There are FO's on the 767 who joined a long time after 2000, however they joined with several thousand total mostly command.

Poto

4th Mar 2007, 11:41

but if I were a young SO right now or a future employee, I wouldn't be too concerned.

Poddy I would be worried about being on a different contract to the current CA. A real possibility for any future new hires. :confused:

Johhny Utah

4th Mar 2007, 12:10

To clarify - the 767 slots I mentioned are only the very latest ones, however the last several years have been of similar seniority. You would have to go back to late 2002 to find guys who managed to get the last of the 'early' promotions onto the 767 - roughly 12 months as an S/O before becoming an F/O on the 767.

As for a ground swell of promotion as new aircraft are delivered - I'll believe it when I see it. Don't get me wrong - I will be happy should it eventuate, but I certainly won't be holding my breath...

Victor India

4th Mar 2007, 20:32

Neville,

You sure those blokes you are referring to aren't cadets. There are FO's on the 767 who joined a long time after 2000, however they joined with several thousand total mostly command.

Is there something I am missing in the certified agreement which allows guys with decent experience to circumvent the seniority system? Perhaps a poorly advertised Direct Entry FO Scheme? Not sure if you are making a point re : opportunity, motivation or neither...

VI

Poto

4th Mar 2007, 21:20

Maybe Nev was talking about the requirement for 3000 hrs (I think?) before a QF driver, from the cadet program, can move into a window seat ;)

Someone with a little more knowledge of the requirements can enlighten us all

Wonder what the Crz F/o requirements will be?:confused:

Victor India

4th Mar 2007, 21:47

Poto,

Thanks - that seems to ring a bell but I haven't got the books at the moment so can't confirm.

Cheers!

pastadolla

5th Mar 2007, 00:05

Not to start a thread drift, but just a question out of curiosity more than anything, does anyone know what the ruling is in regards to cadets being "promoted" to Jetstar as F/O's should they desire after being S/O's? I know the whole thing about having to resign from big brother and all but given cadets dont have all that much command time would Jetstar accept them as F/O's as QF do in time? I assume it's possible but of course not sure why you would be that keen anyhow....

GaryGnu

5th Mar 2007, 00:24

When the Jetstar F/O vacancies were advertised by FSO I recall thinking the command experience requirements were well in excess of what any cadet would have unless they did quite a lot of private flying.

I am not familiar with the specifics of the Industry Placement Programme but I don't think there is any command time in that for cadets.

Veruka Salt

5th Mar 2007, 00:38

I was a 767 F/O for 5 yrs, and in the latest training allocations I would have been about 1 yr too junior for a 767 F/O slot . . . . :bored:

. . . . unreal.

murgatroid

5th Mar 2007, 06:08

When the Jetstar F/O vacancies were advertised by FSO I recall thinking the command experience requirements were well in excess of what any cadet would have unless they did quite a lot of private flying.

Correct, there were current QF A330 F/O's who didn't meet the requirements for a J* F/O.

There were current QF Captains who didn't meet the requirements for J* Captain, despite having a command at QF for a decade or so. Even many A330 QF check and training Captains did not meet the requirements.

The requirements were a complete joke and designed to ensure no QF (well except maybe ex AN 320) would meet them.

excellr8

5th Mar 2007, 06:21

I think with the current state of affairs at QF a promotion is best found in the desert. While the goons fiddle with our careers we best make our services more usefull elsewhere. See you guys and gals at the EK road show.

speeeedy

5th Mar 2007, 07:54

Podbreak,

Genuine question - how do you figure on all this promotion?

A380's and A330's coming but Classics and 767's going.

738's coming but 734's going.

Replacement aircraft means a lot of training but this is not the same as promotion, CM seems to be very careful when he talks about this, he always talks about the massive 'training' coming up not 'promotion'.

Extra aircraft are needed for promotion and whilst there will be some extra aircraft, hardly large enough to completley reverse the current timelines.

Elroy Jettson

5th Mar 2007, 09:14

True Speeedy, that is also assuming that mainline guys will be flying the new equipment. Geoff has guys paying for their own endorsements on 330s and no doubt 787s when they come, he has a wet lease crewing company in the form of AO, who are already undercutting mainline on mainline routes, who do you think he would prefer fly the new equipment?

Remember he said "The new equipment will go where it is best utilised and most profitable?" Do you honestly think that will be mainline?

Wingspar

5th Mar 2007, 09:47

What will happen when JQ get the 787?

Who pays for the endorsement?

Is it covered in their current agreement?

max autobrakes

5th Mar 2007, 10:17

Guess what?
The International variation to the JetStar Collective Agreement the JetStar pilots voted for, was for a "widebody variation".
That means they could quite conceivably end up flying the A380 for peanuts as well as the B787!
HEBES SUM ET SUFFRAGIA FERO!

podbreak

5th Mar 2007, 11:45

Speedy, good question.

20 A380s replacing 5 classics and a handfull of 400s will result in more crew.
Lets not forget the 787s. CM has stated quite clearly that mainline will be expanding from the 3rd Quater of this year, and for all those cynical Ppruners, no I don't take everything on face value, but I am an optimist.
As for the 73s, well, the NGs were orginially going to replace the 300s, but that still resulted in movement. That movement was hinted as well, and I seem to remember a large contingent of people saying the same thing they say now.

Elroy Jettson

5th Mar 2007, 12:16

Wingspar. basically you pay for one wide body endorsement. If you paid for your 330, you get a 78 for free!!! Cant remember the clause about upgrades or if you arrived at jester with a 330 endorsement...

blow.n.gasket

7th Mar 2007, 10:50

Max,
your latin is rotten, but oh so cutting!
Keep 'em coming I havn't laughed so hard since high school Latin classes.

max autobrakes

10th Mar 2007, 13:01

Dear blown.
RETRO SUILLUM

Eaglet

25th Mar 2007, 05:34

Further to above, I'm trying to get hold of the jetstar EBA. If anyone could point me in the right direction, that'd be appreciated.

freddyKrueger

25th Mar 2007, 06:15

Ask and you shall receive...
jetstar airways pilots agreement 2005 [.pdf] (http://www.airc.gov.au/tracee/agreements/pdf/AG843278.pdf)
This doesn't include the "widebody" variation. If you manage to find a link to the variation please post a link.

Capt Kremin

25th Mar 2007, 06:18

I believe copies are held at the following websites:

http://believe-or-not.*************/

http://www.foolishness.com/

http://www.idiots.com/ and the master copy at

http://www.oldmeadow.com.au/theywouldn'tfallforitwouldthey?/htm

Enjoy!

murgatroid

25th Mar 2007, 07:10

From Wagenet, Jetstar lack of pay and conditions:

http://www.wagenet.gov.au/WageNet/Search/View.ASP?docid=278948&query=(JETSTAR)&quickview=Y (http://www.wagenet.gov.au/WageNet/Search/View.ASP?docid=278948&query=%28JETSTAR%29&quickview=Y)

max autobrakes

25th Mar 2007, 09:33

Caveat Emptor

position & hold

13th Apr 2007, 06:22

Howdy all,
I am wondering if anyone can help out with a query on the Jetstar endorsement. According to the tax office it is only tax deductible if you are already employed by the airline, but i am under the impression that you are only offered employment upon successful completion of the endorsement. Can anyone enlighten me further?

On a lighter note, Got a phone call from QF recruiting checking to see if people on the hold file are still alive/interested, possible courses second half of the year. I guess Virgin / Jetstar have poached a few in the last 12 months. I guess it shows that the two recruiting departments within the group are independant when it comes to final selections.

Cheers all :ok:

P&H

cunninglinguist

13th Apr 2007, 07:46

From the AFAP:
Those :mad: holes at the ATO have attempted twice to take people to court ( VB ) for claiming endorsement, both did'nt get past the steps of the court.
My understanding is Jet* encumbents are in a better position ( things may have changed at VB ) as they get a signed EBA prior to the start of the 320 endo, basically saying you have a job on the condition you have a 320 endo. and can hold an ASIC.

As far as paying for 787 endo, you get one equipment change free, 320 to 330 is not counted as an equipment change.

Condition lever

13th Apr 2007, 09:01

You will get as many as the company requires for free.

For example:
You pay for an A320 FO endorsement.

The company then wants you to go onto the A330 as an FO - so they pay.

Your slot comes around for a command on the 320 - the company pays.

If they are then short on the 787 the company then pays for this as well.

If J* was to aquire A380s - the company would pay for this as well.

If you happen to dislike being on the A330 as an FO and want to go back to the A320 you will pay for this. Similarly if you are on the 787 and want to go back to the 320.

You only pay for the initial rating, as with the impulse guys who paid for their B1900 end then had the company pay for B717, A320 and A330 ratings.