NCA & ANA copilots don't land (ever)

[Jambo Buana]

Can it really be true, in this day and age, that in Japan the SOPs are such that FOs are never PF? A friend of mine has joined one of these companies, been through 2 type rating courses (for the same plane, one in the US and one Japanese style), all in the left seat including checkride, has finished line training, all in the right seat, and has never landed the plane for real! How do they expect an FO to land after incapacition or a flight control problem? Apart from that we ALL know (except the Japanese) that the commander should be freed up when the flying workload is high and allowed to manage the situation.
That said, he is happy to pull the gear for 13,000 USD per month! :ugh:

[heavydane]

Except for the 13K it is all correct!

[bomarc]

I have to think that said copilot must get some simulator time to remain current for landings...

does anyone remember when someone tried to do a kamakazie into the approach lights in japan? maybe 30 years ago

[robd]

Jambo Buana (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=27286),
As far as NCA goes, It is true that during OJT(on the job training)your friend did not act as PF. This is just the way it is working for a Japanese carrier. That being said, once you are finished with OJT he will act as PF on alternating legs(same job as most other companies around the world).

[dimitrispa31]

That is totally unacceptable :* I cant believe that there are airlines out there with these kind of SOPs.I would never work for an airline like that either being a f/o or a cpt even if they paid me 20,000 per month.As a f/o i would never accept this deal,as a cpt i would never fly an aircraft with a f/o who is not current in actually flying the aircraft and especially due to companys policy.I was really sad to see this post.

[robd]

As far as NCA goes this is for the most part a true statement. During OJT(on the job training) a FO does not act as PF. However, once on the line all FO's alternate acting as PF just like at most other operations around the world.
I assume other Japanese carriers are exactly the same.

[whazitdoinnow]

Not an accurate statement I must say. With NCA the check captain will fly all 7 legs during the linetraining on the classic. Once flying the line it is split evenly amongst the captain and copilot. NCA training is in its Japanese way one of the better and more relaxed allthough it seems to take a long time. I know it sounds kind of strange that you don't land the airplane during "OJT" but that is the way the system is. Nuff said, I have to get ready for my 8 days of work in March and give my left arm some rest so I can do a fine job in raising that gear.:)

[Flight Detent]

I guess these FOs are going to be 'more experienced' than the upcoming 'multi crew licenced' FOs of the future!

My God, where are we heading with all this!

FD :sad:

[akerosid]

Quote:
does anyone remember when someone tried to do a kamakazie into the approach lights in japan? maybe 30 years ago

That was a JAL DC8 at Haneda in 1982; the captain had a psychotic episode and despite attempts by the FO and FE to restrain him, the captain (who had previously been demoted to FO and had various related problems) managed to land in Tokyo Bay, short of the runway; 16 people were killed.

[Jambo Buana]

I think you might get to PF if the skipper is western, would it be true to say that Japanese captains will always be PF?

However it is still totally strange that during line training you dont get to land. I know it is a small airline with a few captains, so maybe they are experienced enough to handle the new FO released from training having never landed. Also, the classic sim is not level D so you cant keep current like that, in Europe!

[robd]

Not a true statement.
NCA has been using ANA's 747-200 sim for some time. NCA pilots use this sim to remain current if needed(landings for currency). The JCAB does not have any problems with it.
I am pretty sure that this sim is also a level D sim.

[Mike773]

QUOTE: I assume other Japanese carriers are exactly the same.

Best you not assume anything. NCA/ANA are not the only airlines, you know.

[President Bush]

Personally I like this idea a great deal. I'm sick and tired of giving sectors away(out of the goodness of my heart)only to watch some amateur make a horlicks of the entire task. A reasonable period of 10years PNF would be appropriate when it comes to heavy iron.

[Wizofoz]

Back to the subject.....

I was part of a group that was involved in the start up of a Japanese airline.

The F/Os had to do fiftey (no sh1t 50) actual, non revenue take-offs and landings as part of their training. They took an aircraft to an island for a week and did circuits.

Once on line they were not allowed to do takeoffs or landings for 6 months, though there was a requirement for them to do at least three a month, but that had to be with a training Captain.

So, although ALL the Japanese Captains were training Captains, they made sure the F/Os got- 3 takeoffs and landings a month, and no more.

There were several heavy landing incidents once the F/Os were through their "probation"....

[bflyer]

Hi...
sarcasm aside..my personal opinion is that first officers must get actual hands on experience according to their level of experience in order to produce captains who are professionally worthy of that name
when i want to release a new captain on an aircraft..the last thing i want as a flight instructor is to worry about his lack of experience in actually handling an aircraft ..remember..this is the guy you are entrusting an aircraft full of passengers to his care
you want top-of-the-line commanders...you train your first officers hard

[pitotman]

Jambo Buana,

Dude don't take this the wrong way as I am not jumping on ya....! I am quite confident that I know your buddy as I have also been through NCA training and done the two type ratings one in the usa and the other in Japan.

Firstly the usa training was done to acquire a valid USA ATP with a 747-200 Command rating! {Cool (I accelerated!)inside joke} The USA ATPL was done to SHORTEN our JCAB training. (more on JCAB later)

By having a USA ATP command rating we then only had to do ATP ride when we were in Japan. This simplified and shortened our training.


Can it really be true, in this day and age, that in Japan the SOPs are such that FOs are never PF? A friend of mine has joined one of these companies, been through 2 type rating courses (for the same plane, one in the US and one Japanese style), all in the left seat including checkride, has finished line training, all in the right seat, and has never landed the plane for real! How do they expect an FO to land after incapacition or a flight control problem? Apart from that we ALL know (except the Japanese) that the commander should be freed up when the flying workload is high and allowed to manage the situation.
That said, he is happy to pull the gear for 13,000 USD per month!

I can't comment on Japan but your above statement does not reflect NCA at all. The pay, I care not to comment on however we are paid reasonably well depending on your contract. I believe our mutual friend to be a PARC guy and those numbers you spat out are in fact high and wrong. Just going through my log book in the last year I flew 330 hrs and I had 34 sectors. That is more than half and in those 330 hrs was my 6 sectors or around 50 hours of IOE (line indoc) that I was PNF.

JCAB-mate this is a group that makes all other aviation bureau's look like NASA. JCAB runs the Japanese aviation industry like a mafia. You either get on board with them or your done. NCA does not like it and either do the 700 plus western pilots flying in Japan. But it is there box and I am happy to play within the guidelines.

I think you might get to PF if the skipper is western, would it be true to say that Japanese captains will always be PF?

However it is still totally strange that during line training you don’t get to land. I know it is a small airline with a few captains, so maybe they are experienced enough to handle the new FO released from training having never landed. Also, the classic sim is not level D so you cant keep current like that, in Europe!


Not true but probably close. I have flown with Japanese Skippers on 8 sectors and only once did I not fly. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt as we only had one sector together. NCA sim is level D and for the generation of the Aircraft and sim it is excellent.

All n all most of the guys here are very happy. Which is a novelty in this day n age. A few of the guys who joined are not happy as this is the first time they have been overseas and dealt with foreign cultures. I know a couple of my colleagues who are from the states actually dislike it and will go back to the usa as soon as they can. Its not for everyone but for those of us that are here I would say 90% think it is a good solid job and look forward to a secure and exciting future here at NCA.

Off to starbucks to look at MILF's.:D I hate aviation talk!


All the best,

Pitotman

[whazitdoinnow]

Hey Pitotman, doing some skiing lately? Or doesn't the boss allow you anymore.:p My collegue Piotman is right. Believe it or not but I flew another leg yesterday with a Japanese captain. So I don't know what the big fuss is about NCA and I don't think it is true for ANA either. And NCA is not an ab initio club so you really don't have to worry if the copilots are not capable of flying the plane. Most co's are experienced skippers from some "desireable" airlines. And I enjoy this company as well just like all of my JFK compadres.

[Graybeard]

"only to watch some amateur make a horlicks of the entire task..."

What's a horlicks? I have a friend with surname Horlick.

GB

[malcarr]

I know this, even though I'm only infrequent flyer SLF/pax.
In polite British English, 'Horlicks', (a night-cap milk drink) is a euphemism, suggesting the similar-sounding 'bollocks'!

[Pugilistic Animus]

President Bush, it seems your name reflects your flying policies unilateral and unreasonable. ten years!!! FO's are professionals as you are and the job title is PILOT, of course they should fly. Notwithstanding the prior state I think graduated minima or maxima as the case maybe should apply.

Yes, perhaps the newest FO shouldn't do an ILS I approach to mins with the FD MELed, but in time they can, and should, for they'll assume command eventually, No?

The sim can't kill you, there's an unbridgeable psychological gap between a simulator and an aircraft as I opine.

Honestly, I hope you're kidding and just fanning the flames a little for fun otherwise it seems you harbor a hazardous attitude.

Also it doesn't hurt to be PNF at times that stuff gets rusty too I suppose

[Ganbare]

President Bush is just pulling your leg. He can't be serious...