area or aerodrome

[katie84]

hi guys, i am due to start the college in march, and i wondered if any of you have any views on which is better - area control or aerodrome/approach. I understand you dont really get much choice in where you are stationed, but i am looking for viewpoints in terms of job satisfaction, which is more technical, which is more intense, where you can interact more with your colleagues outside of work etc. coz at the moment, i seem to be leaning more to aerodrome, but from speaking to people i seem to get the impression most would prefer area. I visited Manchester last summer with an ATCO that a work colleague of mine knew, and so experienced both area control (which i found quite amazing) and also approach, which i also though i would enjoy. can you help? coz although i would like a position somewhere a little closer to home, i am more interested in finding a position which is more stimulating etc.

Thanks in advance
Kate

[MancBoy]

Katie, you are opening a real can of worms!

I have only ever been valid on area so as far as I'm concerned area is the way to go, pointing aircraft at each other with a closing speed of over 1000knots(over 1000 mph) certainly gets the blood pumping!!

I'm afraid area and aerodrome are completely different and cannot be compared to each other in any way except thet we both use radio to speak to aircraft, that's about the only similarity.

Unless you worked at a very busy airfield, for me, I'd think that once you've seen one plane you've seen them all and the novelty would soon wear off, unless you are a serious spotter and like noting the regs!

Think of this, Swanwick handles over 2.2 million flights every year which of course do not all land at the same airfield.

Of course you may have a decision to make yourself, and whatever you choose you have to make of it what you want! Both tower and area can be stimulating and technical depdending on which sectors you do or which airfield you work at.

People like Gonzo think that tower is the dogs danglies, jokingly of course, but that is all they have ever been valid on so of course it's the best in their minds and also they work at EGLL which is by far busier than any other airfield under NATS umbrella. I've been valid for over ten years in TC and AC and this all I've ever known so think area is the best. TC of course is pretty technical and stimulating, some sectors more than others in AC can be pretty hairy at times.

In short then, tower and area can be all of the things you want it to be and more, it just depends whther you like looking at planes in the flesh or on a radar screen. Also bear in mind that hardly any of the approach functions are located on the airfield they supply. Once manchester moves to scottish I bet the approach function will be done from Prestwick and not under the tower as it is now. Anyone know this answer?

[katie84]

hi mancboy, im from manchester myself.anyway,another question, if you validate as an area controller, can you move to aerodrome or vice versa later on? is there much opportunity for this change and is it easily accommodated, or is it pretty tough to do? and i guess as i am not a plane spotting kinda gal, then area might be the way forward for me. and i know this probably sounds maybe a little naive, but how many positions are there actually at Swanwick, because i get told 80% of trainee ATCO's go to Swanwick, however,if you consider the intake, and the number of people which go with each intake, it seems like there must be an awful lot of space in Swanwick? i know that Air traffic in UK is at a high, and increasing, but still, where do all the new trainees and validations go?

cheers kate :confused:

[eyeinthesky]

To move from Area to Aerodrome or vice versa is not unknown but is rare and is usually done for 'compassionate' reasons.
Consider the fact that, once you have done the introductory course (or whatever it's called now), you will be trained in different set of skills and disciplines depending on whether you're Aerodrome or Area. So to change disciplines later will mean a return to the College to pass Rating examinations in the relevant task. This can take a while (several months) and this is costly to the company compared to you being a productive ATCO in your current discipline.
There are approximately 450 controllers at Swanwick at present. Natural wastage (retirement etc) generally balances out the input of new controllers at the front end. Of the new controllers who get sent to Swanwick, the target is for 65% of them to reach validation. At present we are on track to make that target.
Of course, Swanwick is not the only area unit. There is also Terminal Control at West Drayton (moving to Swanwick this winter), Manchester Control (moving to Prestwick in 2009 I think), and Scottish Control at Prestwick. So there is plenty of demand for Area controllers.
Aerodromes naturally have smaller numbers so the demand per unit is less. However, at present NATS provide ATC at 14 UK airports, so there is a demand nationally. How does Aberdeen in February sound?:E

[MancBoy]

Katie, I'm originally from stockport.

In answer for your first question, since the structure at the college changed if you are area only at the college then you will not get an aerodrome rating therefore, unless you pay for yourself then swanwick or scottish will be your places of work. Plus, if you go to Swanwick and validate then why would you want to go to an airfield, other than heathrow, and have to take a pay cut to a lower banding?

It's the same for aerodrome, except that if you paid for yourself you could then try and get a move to an area centre but I don't think it would be worth it.

Positions at Swanwick I am not exactly sure. The ops room is split into five, known as Local area Groups. These are known as North, South, East, West and Central.

North, for example, comprises the Lakes group of sectors and the Daventry group of sectors. Lakes has 3 sectors which are two positions each, Tactical (radar) controller and Planner who is responsible for the flow of traffic into and out of the sector, also known as co-ordination. When it is quiet all 3 postions can be run by just one tactical and one planner with the other staff on a break standing by. When busy the sectors split off so there can be six people working with a minimum of two on a break. Some sectors can comprise of 8 positions when fully open so there can be a lot of postions open at once.

The Lakes sector sits over the north west, over your head, and speaks to traffic generally at fl290 and above. That's 29,000feet and above.

Regards to where trainees go, Gonzo might be able to help us out with figures but the majority will appear at Swanwick first and then bits and bobs to all the other units.

[Inverted81]

"Aberdeen in February"

Loving it actually. My first feb here and it's great. Despite what maybe said about the ice station, i personally believe it is one of the more varied operations within NATS. Getting on to nearly as many movements as Gatwick (although yes they are the majority Heli's, but then operating off multiple runways) always leads to pretty complex situations.

Given the area/aerodrome question, working at an airfield "does it" for me. I currently only work approach, and i love the dynamism of vectoring aircraft around close to the deck, finding sequences, fitting in transitters along with all the other abnormalities, military, SAR, flight checks, medivacs etc etc...

Unfortunately your options on what you actually WANT to do are limited, the companies business need will determine your path.... all very mystic meg :rolleyes:

[Odi]

Inverted 81....

I think I've finally worked out who you are...



maybe! :) :) :) :)

The Ice Station is a great place to work - where else can you work sectors nearly a 1,000 miles apart! We work traffic in a total of 4 FIRs in an area nearly the size of the London FIR.

[Gonzo]

You rang?

You know, you'll all have to stop referring to me. I might get the idea someone actually reads what I type! :eek:

It varies course to course, but figure around 80% going to do area; of those, the majority will get Swanwick.

Yes, I do think my job is the 'dog's danglies'. I would not swap it for radar work. But many (most?) radar ATCOs would say the same. I would love to do both.

Apart from the actual job, I love looking at aeroplanes. I love the feeling of working at an airport (in any role....everyone who has agrees there's a special atmosphere). I love the immediacy of it. I can see the a/c I'm talking to. And no, I'm not a reggie spotter, and neither are the vast majority of my colleagues.

Katie, if you haven't already, go out on a visit or two!

[katie84]

hi everyone,

thanks for input, its very valuable, i understand that i dont really have a choice as to which route i go down - area or aerodrome, and that doesnt really worry me, i guess i just wanted a bit more insight into the actual functions each carries out more than anything, so i can make a more informed decision when i 'choose' my preferred function (although i do understand i will get placed where business needs are) on the off-chance that i might actually get the position i state as my preference.

gonzo, i visited manchester airport, where i was taken around, sat at the radar screen, listened in on the headphones etc, the ATCO that took me around showed me area and aerodrome at Manc and was extremely helpful (so if you are reading this, you may remember who i am- i visited last august and got in contact with you via a colleague who is your friend, and i thank you very much, as everything you told me was extremely helpful in the interviews, and i guess i have you to thank for me getting a place at the college, i am very grateful!!) and i was there for a good two-three hours, although i obviously couldnt really work out the difference at that stage apart from the fact that in the tower you got a view of the planes and the flights you was in contact with. However, the ATCO that i spoke to, told me that he had firstly worked in aerodrome for the first few years of his career (i think) and had then made the move to area (he has been an ATCO for 19 years or so), so i guess that maybe confused me slightly as to whether you could make the transition from area to aerodrome and vice versa.

Hypothetically, if you did want to make this transition, a few of you have mentioned that you could pay for it. but what sort of fees are you looking at. I basically have a strong desire to know everything there is to know about ATC, and would like to be able to make an informed decision at the college when i choose my discipline.

Mancboy, im not from too far away from your hometown - dukinfield to be precise. there seems to be quite a heavyweight of people from stockport, manc and surrounding areas starting the course in March!

Katie :)

[Gonzo]

I basically have a strong desire to know everything there is to know about ATC

Well, looks like the selection process has worked here! :) Although far too many northerns seem to be around these days! :p

As for the fees, I think what was meant was that you could pay to do your own Aerodrome licence if you really were desperate to do that. You would have to resign from NATS first of all of course, and then have no guarantee of a job at the end of it.

[katie84]

hey gonzo,

thanks for the reply. obviously i wouldnt want to leave NATS after having gone through all the training, i was wondering whether you could transfer within the company thats all! its valuable to know still. by the way, hvae you any hints for things i can do before i start the college, to give me a little more understanding? i have got CAP 493 and 413 that i am trying to read through. But any other little tips would be much appreciated, as i believe from speaking to others on the Jan course that you get examined quite early on.

Cheers

Katie :ok:

[Gonzo]

Yes, as others have said, transferring is done, but very rarely.

And it's even more rare to hear of an area ATCO transferring to an aerodrome. Bear in mind that when you do this (transfer either way), you'll have to go back to the college to do the other rating course, and then train at the new unit. Therefore you're effectively 'useless', not earning the company any money, for over a year. Also, you'll have to wait until there are sufficient staff at your present unit to release you.

As for studying, be careful about studying CAP493 MATS 1 too hard. It is a very dry document where the language has a specific aeronautical meaning. To attempt to learn it without the classroom lessons might confuse you. I would recommend books such as Graham Duke's ABC guide, or even some PPL study books, such as AFE's or Trevor Thom's (google them). Subjects such as Navigation, R/T, Met etc. Also, depending on how much you already know about a/c, a recognition guide such as Jane's would be useful.

[katie84]

thanks gonzo,

thats certainly very helpful. i had noticed that it is wrote in mostly jargon, but there is quite a good glossary that helps, and so far i havent found it too difficult, but yes it can become confusing and take a while of re-reading notes to grasp the meaning.

janes recognition guide? any further info on that specific one? i have had an email sent of 50 aircraft that have to be learnt at the college, from someone that was at my final interview and has already started, it also has all the other info for these aifcraft, would that suffice?
you are being extremely helpful so thank you

kate :D

[Saigor]

Take a look...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Janes-Aircraft-Recognition-Gunter-Endres/dp/0060818948/ref=pd_ka_1/026-1715658-0162012?ie=UTF8&s=books



Saigor

[ShuttleSixYankee]

From what I gather, those streamed to Area end up at Swanwick.
On the Aerodrome stream, are there particular Aerodromes where people are more likely to end up i.e. busier Airports?
I dream of working at LL, that's why I ask. :8;)

[begbie]

There's too many dreamers in our job already...

[begbie]

Learn those 50 aircraft katie and you won't go wrong... Remembering if they are big, medium or small and then if they are fast, quite fast or slow should do it! (well it did for me...)

[begbie]

Shuttle six yankee, some from area will go to Scottish Area Centre too..

[high-hopes]

I would recommend books such as Graham Duke's ABC guide, or even some PPL study books, such as AFE's or Trevor Thom's (google them). Subjects such as Navigation, R/T, Met etc. Also, depending on how much you already know about a/c, a recognition guide such as Jane's would be useful.

Any specific reading you would recommend for someone who's starting already from PPL level ?

Thank you

[begbie]

Chillout with the extra reading and use the materials that the college supply. Focus on doing the practical well and don't get too bogged down in the books...

[Gonzo]

high hopes, not really to be honest.

As begbie says, you already have a good grounding in some of the basics that will be covered.

[katie84]

hi everyone,

thanks for all the info, it has been really helpful, i guess i will just wait and see, but after looking into a bit further, i guess area sounds the more appealing. hope to see some of you in the future!!

Thanks again

Katie:D

[YourFriendlyATCO!]

Katie84

Try and visit Swanwick. Cadets are always welcome, and i reckon it'll help make your mind up There's a great buzz about the place, and the job is always nice and challenging.

We usually get around 10 postings in from the college every 3 months. With new systems coming soon we will be short staffed for a long time to come, so we always get lots of new cadets posted in! Unfortunately never as many as we would like though, and, again unfortunately, there is quite a low pass rate at the college at the moment.

Good luck with the course. Hopefully train you soon!

[katie84]

hi, thanks for that friendly atco, i was wondering whether anyone could tell me what the actual pass rate at the college is? and is this due to incompetence, lack of motivation, the complexity of the course, or just generally people dropping out due to other reasons?

Thanks again

Kate

[DAL208]

hi, thanks for that friendly atco, i was wondering whether anyone could tell me what the actual pass rate at the college is? and is this due to incompetence, lack of motivation, the complexity of the course, or just generally people dropping out due to other reasons?

Thanks again

Kate


Katie, I have just graduated from the college, so perhaps a more recent perspective could be helpful.

Personally, from the first day at the college i prefered the idea of aerodrome to area, for a few reasons. Firstly, i thought it just seemed more fun to work at an airport everyday as opposed to an area centre. I'm not a plane spotter by any means, however, seeing the planes you control certainly gives you a buzz. Secondly, knowing the high failure rate at the college, and further on, at the back of my mind was the thought that if i had an aerodrome rating, or at least experience of the training, if i failed nats, the qualifications would still be applicable eleswhere in UK, which Area cannot offer, and although i wouldnt trade working for NATS for any other company, it felt a safer option!
I was fortunate enough to be picked to go on Aerodrome, and obviously i can only speak from an aerodrome perspective, but i felt it was the most...rewarding course. Although, the Aerodrome course has a lot of bookwork compared to Area (although its multi choice, unlike area :) ) and the practical exams are every month, as opposed to at the end of the course like in area. I preferred being tested more regularly as it kept you on your toes, and everytime you passed a set of summatives (practical exams) it gave you the confidence to do it again...in a few weeks.
So its not only the type of job in long run that you would prefer, but the type of course-neither is easier im afraid but you may prefer to be tested more regularly, and be strong on the bookwork for aerodrome as oppsed to area, which (and i could be wrong) seemed a more gradual (poor term to use, nothing is "gradual" at the college) steady course, however probably more to learn in the long term as the course is double the length.
Hope i havent got you more confused, feel free to PM me with any more questions about the college and courses.
As for why people fail? any number of reasons. One thing i will say is that the instructors notice and appreciate motivation and a good attitude not only to work, but to know where you need improvement-and act on it.
Its extremely hard work at the college, be in no doubt, my course had somewhat of a record breaking failure rate. For many i think it was just not for them, for some, they were genuinely unlucky, others just couldnt step it up that final notch perhaps. Unfortunately the course is very short for what you learn, the instructors do the best they can, they really do. If you have motivation to work your a*s off and the inclination, i promise you will do fine.
anyway, i've rattled on for long enough now, sorry.

DAL.

[mr.777]

Hi Kate,
I went through the College in 2004 (validated 2weeks ago finally!!) and things have changed a fair bit since then but to give you an idea...I was on a course of 10 (nice round numbers!):
4 got chopped. Of the remaining 6, 3 now valid at LL/SS/LC, 1 doing Approach/Tower at Cardiff, Me at TC and 1 at Swanwick just begining live training now.
This doent take into account the fact that people failed courses but passed on the 2nd attempt...but of the 10 fresh faced cadets who started,5 are now valid and one is on live training. Hope this helps.
Enjoy the college. The trick is to take it one step at time...soon enough you'll be out of there and posted to a unit for live training...when the fun really begins!!
Good luck!!

Oh and BTW...instead of Aerodrome or Area...why not Approach?! it's the mutts nuts!:ok:

[YourFriendlyATCO!]

No worries at all Kate.

I've never been sure why there is such a low pass rate. Once at a unit, the pass rate is much much better. You do have to work fairly hard at college, but it's enjoyable at the same time. The thing i found that did get some people down was that you were always told when you were doing something wrong, but never praised when you did something right!! Again, after the initial 9 months at the college, things improve drastically!

Feel free to PM if i can organise a visit for you, or be of any other help.

[Ppdude]

Mancboy- I doubt that Manchester Approach will be done from Prestwick as the Job is done by the tower guys!
Unless they fancy an hour stint in the tower, a quick brew then up to Prestwick for an hour then back again. That said they could always move the tower to Prestwick too?

As for the majority of trainess going to Swanwick. I think the trend may shift as Nats realise there are not quite the numbers going up north from Manchester as they first thought. Lets face it, even if you go to Swanwick your more than likely to move to Manchester anyway if the past couple of years are anything to go by.

[MancBoy]

PPdude, what hapened when SS approach moved to TC then?

A lot of the tower guys made the move!

If the numbers aren't going North from Manchester then where are they going?

Only one of your guys went and got the latest LAS promotion so why weren't there more applicants from Manchester?

Sorry, two of your guys, one at the college part time.

[Ppdude]

Some people are forgetting that Nats isnt the only job in the world. There are numerous people who are going to be leaving nats for other jobs. I for one am looking elsewhere. I guess ATCO isnt the job for life it used to be.

Id be quite happy to loose £20k or so in wage but stay where im settled in a much nicer area, around my family, and not having to unsettle my wife or kids.

(NB.Point taken about approach thing)

[MancBoy]

If you are going to be short for the move to Scottish then I had better start sharpening my chopping tool again then!

[Ppdude]

ahhh its the famous 'choppa manc' stalking the radar late at night.
Although I do thing Manchester will start getting more people direct from the college as we get nearer the move date to compensate for the leavers.

[MancBoy]

You'd like to think so.

I was only joking about the tool, I haven't used it for at least two years or so.

[katie84]

Hi everyone, thanks so much for your help, it has all been extremely invaluable! i will bear it all in mind at the college.

Cheers

Katie :)