MANSTON

[undiemole]

Surely we must have served our penance ?? we are supposed to be a democracy after all...........:bored:
Whether you have served your penance or not remains to be seen, it is going to depend on the quality of the posts. And no, the Forum/Site is not a democracy.

AA&R Moderators

[PPRuNe Pop]

OK, let's give it a go.

Put it this way. Give us a hand. If YOU see that someone is overstepping to mark or breaking the rules, tell them. You all have the power to edit your own posts and by giving them a bad time they will do it - OR - we will do it for them.

Fair enough?

Now try to enjoy it.

[EGMH]

Infratil's January report for KIA-M
Kent International handled 2,823 tonnes of freight during January. This was another strong performance and was more than double the 1,336 tonnes in January 06. The drop from the December peak of tonnage was in line with expectations given the seasonal nature of the main produce imports.
MK Airlines contributed 29 services, the same number as December, and there were a total of 45 freight services (five more than December), but average loads were lower than the December peak.
Encouraging increase from last year..:ok:

[tommyc2005]

The plug has been pulled on the charter series to Norfolk, only around 800 seats were sold which works out to around 30 people per flight. From what I understand, the majority of those were Americans coming here, and while the poor exchange rate has been named a factor, I doubt it accounts for that level of shortfall.

[deedave]

Norfolk Cancellations.

Is this really true?

While I certainly believe MSE cannot survive, I am shocked and appalled that these flights have been pulled.

It would only have taken a minute percentage of the supposed catchment population to get a decent load factor on these aircraft.

It seems no matter how pessemistic a view one takes of MSE, the reality is always worse.

[Dont tell um pike]

The last thing Manston needs is another low yield disaster , Orlando i could have understood but Norfolk never made much sense.As long as Kent Escapes show year on year increases in pax (or yield) this is little more than common sense prevailing.

DTUP

[Manston Airport]

Yes its true they have been scraped just seen it on news.But I think Norfolk is the wrong place like DTUP said I really think Cosmos should fly Orlando and other top places that would work. Think they need to do some sort off poll around Kent and SE. Any news on what airline is doing the Kent escapes flights?

Regards
James

[Mr @ Spotty M]

With Cosmos struggling to sell Orlando out of LGW, what makes you think that you could out of MSE?

[catflaps]

Isn't it time to face facts? With the economy on the turn, and aviation under mounting environmental pressure, the collapse of the nonsensical Norfolk flights comes as no surprise. When I asked people if they would be taking advantage of these flights their immediate response was always, "What's in Virginia....a lonesome pine?" I cannot believe that Infratil aren't now seriously reviewing whatever plans they had made for Manston.

[catflaps]

"With Cosmos struggling to sell Orlando out of LGW, what makes you think that you could out of MSE?"

Wasn't it Tipple and Freudmann who produced the report that recommended this route? With their vast experience of the aviation industry, perhaps they could explain why they got it so badly wrong. Perhaps Kent County Council could explain how they came to select FT International to give them paid advice. There seem to be so many knowledgeable people on this board. How come none of them were asked?

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Well it shows just how much they know about the tour business.:mad:

[blazing_air]

Ask yourself where Tipple and Freudman came from then, you have the answers.
Once upon a time there was a company called "Planestastion"....
The rest has been written on this thread many times before.

[Manston Airport]

With Cosmos struggling to sell Orlando out of LGW, what makes you think that you could out of MSE?


Well LGW has 4 or 5 tour operaters flying to Orlando ,MSE has none So it might work there :ok:Yes I remember that company Planestation ;) :E

James

[deedave]

When Eujet and planestation died, the McGoldrick family were widely scapegoated. Those with a little more corporate knowledge also targeted Martin May.

Now it seems Tipple and Freudman are going to get the same treatment.

Scapegoating individual players gets us nowhere.

The fact is, we are all to blame (particularly our local politicians) for buying into the myth that an old military runway at the bottom corner of the UK is going to attract credible volumes of commercially viable activity.

Certainly, I myself was daft enough to believe it.

Not any more though.

[Jes]

Only a couple of days and Dads' Army is back. Captain Mainwaring is the only one to have made a sensible comment (I'm Cpl Jones), and on the basis of one route cancelled Pte Frazer writes off MSE yet again.

Norfolk was always weird - a KCC Conservative idea, like the Turner Centre, and was always billed as one season only.

After a quiet month, there's been a flurry of serious freight activity this week. We're all on tenterhooks waiting for the DAS decision, particularly as this impacts on maintenance business.

Flybe. announces its new structure tomorrow. It was rumoured last year that they were up for two routes. Have they moved on, or are they still planning to come?

The freight apron is being expanded, and the passenger one has been repaired. Manston is ready and open for business.

[catflaps]

"The freight apron is being expanded"

No it isn't. There's no work going on, on the airfield at the moment. Where did you get this information?

[Twitcher]

From the BBC
Plans to run transatlantic flights between Kent and America have been scrapped because of poor ticket sales.
The weekly service to Norfolk, Virginia was supposed to take off from Manston International Airport in May.

But package holiday company Cosmos decided to cancel the planned flights after selling just 10% of the available tickets.

Cosmos said the 800 passengers who had booked the service would get a full refund or be offered another holiday.

It was hoped the transatlantic service would help restore industry confidence in the airport.
Infratil took over the Kent International airport in 2007 after previous owner PlaneStation went into administration.

Steve Fitzgerald, Chief Executive of Infratil Airports Europe, said: "We are obviously disappointed that this project will not be going ahead as planned.

"We believe Kent International Airport has the potential to service the domestic and short-haul, business and leisure, low cost and charter markets within Europe.

"There will be a gradual development and our business plan anticipates growth to around 500,000 - 600,000 passengers over three years."

Kent County Council leader Paul Carter said: "It was a calculated risk that had significant potential and could have delivered major benefits for the region. Enormous efforts have been made on both sides of the Atlantic to promote the flights.

"In the absence of any other organisation prepared to share the financial risk of continuing with the project, it would not be prudent or viable to invest public money in the venture."

[Manston Airport]

There will be a gradual development and our business plan anticipates growth to around 500,000 - 600,000 passengers over three years."


Well EUjet got 400,000 Passagers so I think it can work out for MSE like I say to the right places.


PS Whats the two routes Flybe had planned?

James

[function]

Work is continuing, contractors are working on the AGL, markings, the B apron and the work to expand the E apron is planned.

[Manston Airport]

Has B apron been fixed now?:confused:

James

[weevhearditb4]

Hi Guys and Girls

If they are getting aprons up and running and expanding what are they doing about the potential for pollution into Pegwell Bay. I understand that KIA have to apply for a discharge consent to do this? Anyone know what this is all about and does every airport have to apply for one?

[fj1]

ok, I'll bite, what is the connection between repairing the aprons and discharging pollution into Pegwell Bay.

[honeysweetcombe]

my limited knowledge might explain the pollution topic, north side of the airport - bravo apron - drains run via pipes into an underground tank next to the spitfire museum carpark, this is then pumped away along pipes under the grass next to echo taxiway. south side of the runway has drains running along it which run into an underground pipe that goes under cliffsend to pegwell bay.runway surface fluids also run to a separater tank adjacent to a taxiway any form of surface fluid runs into these drains and tanks.
Bravo apron works nearly complete, echo apron has had the surveyors in for possible extension.

[Hangar_9]

What is the state of play with Flybe have they announced yet? i cant find anything myself about manston and flybe respectively?:bored:

[fj1]

There is no state of play, it was more of a question from Jes. This year flyBE have massive expansion taking over BA's regional routes. It is not impossible for them to be looking at for example the JER->MSE route, but my guess is not in the near future.

[Jes]

I know Twitcher will be posting some good news soon, but I've picked up some bad news today. EgyptAir have been absent for some weeks now, and the reason given is a dispute between them and their forwarder.

Does anyone know more about this?

[Hangar_9]

I dont know about Eygpt air but DAS have been adivsed that European ops. can restart?

[jet2_at_blk]

Anything going about a new LC airline flying to the airport? FR? EZY? AB?

[Hangar_9]

The only hint would be that Infratil, when publishing the cosmos statment, commented on how they were in talks with several "established" european airlines :rolleyes:.
That would be all i could guess at the moment. They want 500,000-600,00 pax within 3 years. In this cae something is happening soon :confused:.

P.S - DAS HAVE BEEN GRANTED THERE EU OP. LICENSE AGAIN!! GD LUCK TO THEM>:}

[Manston Airport]

Thats Brilliant that DAS can restart :ok: will they make MSE there main base? And where abouts can I find the Infratil, cosmos statment.? Just looking on the DAS site they have this picture from MSE http://www.dasair.com/images/fleet%20maintenance/H4%20MSE.jpg And I was wondering can they fit the DC-10 tail into the hanger?


Regards
James

[EGMH]

James, this is the statement:

PRESS RELEASE

Statement re Cosmos programme

Steve Fitzgerald, Chief Executive of Infratil Airports Europe, today (28.2.07) commented on the decision not to operate a summer charter programme between Kent and Virginia -
“The Virginia programme originated from the close co-operation between Kent County Council and the authorities in Norfolk.

“The 400th anniversary of the founding of the first permanent settlement at Jamestown, Virginia, in 2007 was seen as a catalyst to link the regions as many of the first settlers came from Kent.

“It presented the opportunity for a link that we were happy to support but this type of service always stood outside our core business plan for passenger development.

“We are obviously disappointed that this project will not be going ahead as planned. For various reasons, including an unfavourable exchange rate for the inbound market, it seems the demand was simply not there.

“This has not changed our view that the airport has a bright future. The Virginia programme would have been a once a week service catering for around 8,000 passengers in total.

“We believe Kent International Airport has the potential to service the domestic and short-haul, business and leisure, low cost and charter markets within Europe.

“There will be a gradual development and our business plan anticipates growth to around 500,000 – 600,000 passengers over three years.

“With excellent growth in freight traffic, the expanded charter programme from Kent Escapes and the positive discussions we are having with established European airlines we remain confident that our long-term business plan will ensure the airport has a bright future.

“Kent County Council and its partners in this venture continue to have an important role in promoting the economic development of East Kent and attracting more air services into the area is an excellent way to stimulate growth.

“We look forward to working with Kent County Council and other partners in the future.”

Ends
February 28 2007

[deedave]

Airport Management, passenger predictions, and press releases......


Steve Fitzgerald, Feb 2007-

"Our business plan anticipates growth to around 500,000 - 600,000 passengers over the next three years." (ie, by 2010)


Steve Fitzgerald, Sept 2005-

"We are hoping to build a target figure of 700,000 passengers by 2009"


Steve Fitzgerald, Oct 2005-

(At interview) "Sure, this could become another Prestwick (2m pax) within 5 years"


EUjet, Dec 2004-

"Next year, the company hopes to fly 880,000 passengers from Thanet"


Oliver Iny, Aug 1999-

Predicts 4-6 million people at MSE.


Tony Freudman, Dec 98-

Predicts 1 million people at MSE.




I don't blame these people.

It is their job to pull a figure out of the air, try and make their airport look good, and hope for the best.

You'd have to be a simpleton to believe it though.
.
.

[Hangar_9]

"Our business plan anticipates growth to around 500,000 - 600,000 passengers over the next three years." (ie, by 2010)

All it takes is another Eujet (with proper management etc, dont go down that road again) who flew nearly 400,000 pax (dont query it just accept for now, will create an argument otherwise...) in 10 months to get an airport going:ugh:.
They are giving it 3 YEARS.

There is the potential for more than one airline in that time frame.
We have to agree that the Norfolk flights were a bit "out of the way" if you can say that. Eujet were flying to spanish destinations with 109 seat A/C and filling them during the summer months.
You can see after a gap of nearly a year Seguro& Kentescapes jumped in and took over the spain routes. They proved it to be viable to land a second year deal at the airport with double the destinations i.e 20,000 pax. If that were to continue you wuld be getting roughly 60,000 from that airline alone in 2010.
If Steve is true to his word which seems to be not all that certain, he commented in the cosmos report
"positive discussions we are having with established European airlines we remain confident that our long-term business plan will ensure the airport has a bright future".

I seem to see some sense from this and dont just read straight through it!:)

Hangar_9 :ugh:

[tilewood]

The value of Manston's real estate keeps going up. It's in the South East!

It doesn't matter if it just becomes a site for a weekend gliding club,
whoever owns the acres will be doing very nicely. If the odd jet
lobs in then that's an added bonus.

Perhaps Manston's acreage will be used for housing, then one day a new airport will have to be built to cater for the burgeoning population.

But in the meantime..................

[deedave]

"New airport for burgeoning population...."

I see there's an ad for Lydd on this page.

Now there's a coincidence........

[deedave]

Hangar9

Unfortunately, if people post inaccurate information about EUjet, I am afraid it must be corrected, despite your request not to. Although the subject is tiresome for all of us, information must be accurate for the sake of newcomers.

A) EUjet did not fly 400,000 pax in 10 months, they flew 300,000 in 11 months.

B) Knowledge of extensive promotional offers, plus examination of the company's booking engine showing low seat prices, plus load factors, plus the fact that the whole venture went bust, shows that the revenue from these flights was no good.

C) There will not be "another EUjet". Lo-co is no-go at MSE.


PS - If Kent Escapes double their pax this year, it will be 12,000, not the 20,000 you suggest.
.
.

[jet2_at_blk]

That is abit harsh!

I don't know much about MSE, but I am all for expansion of small, regional airports!

Why will there be no loco at MSE? BLK got one from nowhere!

Making comments about an airport not getting an airline with such certainty, do you know something we don't?

[deedave]

No mate, all the info I have is in the public domain.

However, as a financial backer of MSE I followed the fortunes of EUjet very closely.

Lo-co may choose to come to MSE, but I can say with reasonable confidence that they would lose all their money.

A number of MSE staff have visited this forum and stated categorically that they would not wish to see another failed lo-co at the airport.

[fj1]

My guess on a operator to take over would be one of the East-European boys, fling low cost into the growing market in the east.

Going along with DDs theory and no schedule airline ever flies from Manston. Can Manston survive with the following operations ? some of which do provide a local service.

SAR Operations
Humanitarian Aid Flights
All Cargo Flights
Executive Flights
Summer Holiday Flights
Transatlantic Ferry Flights
Military Flights
Private and Commercial Flight Training
ATC for Kent and the English Channel.

---------------------------------------------------

On a different subject, with the new engine overhaul centre being built, Are the engines being road-ed or flown in, or a bit of both?

[deedave]

fj1-

I am told the trans-Atlantic ferries (World Airways) were a 2 year contract. There has been no news of a renewal.

Aside from this, you have provided a useful and succinct appraisal of the status quo at Manston.

How much revenue is this generating??

Infratil 19 Feb - "The key goal is to build both throughput and value from that throughput".

This suggests there is a fair old bit of "cut-price" activity on the go.

From a PR point of view, MSE needs MK and Kent Escapes so the airport looks active.

If I were running the show, I would offer favourable rates to both to keep them here.

According to press reports, under Planestation, MK were on what amounted to a half price deal. When that deal was withdrawn, they left.

[SWBKCB]

Haven't MK already signed a deal which ties them to Ostend?

[MDIS]

DD

You are correct, this was a 2 year arrangement and will not be happening this year.

I did say back in January not to bank on the Virginia Flights. It was almost certain back then that it wasn't going to be a runner.

MDIS

[Hangar_9]

Lets talk about something constructive......

On the topic of MK at MSE would it be correct to believe that Frequencys are to be brought up again? :rolleyes:

So.....

Pax

Kentescapes - (which airline is flying the services?) 3x weekly?
Newmarket - several flights this year, any idea of A/C


Cargo

MK -How many flights a week?

DAS - What is the state of paly at MSE now they have their license in EU back?

Egypt Cargo - Disappeared recently as someone suggested due to there forwarder agreement breaking down?

Air atlanta - Any idea if they will return?

ANY OTHER PLANNED RUMOURS OF CARGO AIRLINES? - ???

Misc.

Radar -Any news on the radar, left our thoughts along time ago in this forum. What is the state of play?

Aprons - Pax apron repaired/overhauled, what about the Cargo area, what is the plans?

LEts talk airport instead of the admin side of things for a change, let the airport staff sort all that out.........

[fj1]

The transatlantic flghts I was refering to , is the splash and dash type of business, (one of PIK main areas of operation). As said the 'world' charter program is over.

H9 - Air Atlantla\XL are still at manston.
Newmarket flights are always 737.

[leisurelad]

Hi Guys,

Just in regads to the Kent Escape Flights, and forgive me if this has been mentioned before but it would suggest that the flights are either on a "W pattern" with a particular uk airline or possibly a spannish airline as the timings of the flights suggest that the aircraft starts from overseas.

Just been looking on the website and it gives the times and just TBA as a flight number so i would say that maybe the flights haven't been confirmed and as we are now in march, thought they would of had these by now as the programme been on sale for a while and not that long to go before summer starts.

Anyone know anymore



Cheers

[Voldermort]

Leisurelad
The original plan was that the flights would operate as a W pattern using the PIK based Astraeus a/c but in recent weeks/months the AEU flight numbers have gone from the Seguro travel website to be replaced by either LTE or "TBA".I am sure that there will be some more changes to times and operators in the next few weeks as Seguro/Kent escapes try to arrange other carriers, so we will just have to wait and see what happens:confused:

[Manston Airport]

Yeah H9 Its one off my dream airlines for MSE :ok: The Newmarket holidays are sometimes done by EAF 737-200 and for Kent escapes did someone say its being done by a Viking MD-80?, Did someone say the Radar is repaired?

And MSE is DAS Mainteance base so hope they start some cargo flights:ok:


Regards
James

[blazing_air]

Ok here goes...
"Kentescapes - (which airline is flying the services?) 3x weekly?"
The latest is that it is most probably going to be Viking with MD83's
"Newmarket - several flights this year, any idea of A/C"
Not known yet - prob 737.
"MK -How many flights a week?"
Between 5 and 7 but this fluctuates every week and some going with loads now, rather than ferrying out.
"DAS - What is the state of paly at MSE now they have their license in EU back?"
Despite the news on this forum, no news from DAS and their DC10 is still sitting at MSE (without engines)
"Egypt Cargo - Disappeared recently as someone suggested due to there forwarder agreement breaking down?"

Correct, but there are rumours of another airline taking their place (Ghana was bandied around)
"Air atlanta - Any idea if they will return?"
They have already returned and are continuing with maintenance at MSE ( 2 x 747's in at the moment).
Radar is repaired, awaiting commissioning.
Bravo is repaired, waiting for concrete to cure
Plans have been drawn up for Echo Apron extension, but they are still in the planning stage.

[Hangar_9]

:ok: Thanks alot Blazing, So DAS as yet dont have License back?

P.S - Nice website you got :rolleyes: :oh: :D

[blazing_air]

Tnx H9
One tries ones best

[Manston Airport]

How many DC-10's do DAS have now:confused: Am I right that the engine less DC-10 at MSE is Boeings and they lsd it to DAS and now its returned to Boeing?

James

[deedave]

Management are understandably trying to play down the Virgina cancellations.
It would be a mistake, however, to underestimate it's impact in a wider context. This was a major project for Kent, hugely publicised, and it's failure is significant.

Previously, MSE has enjoyed privileged support from politicians and press.
The wind is now changing.

Leading article from the Isle of Thanet Gazette-


Another fine plan fails to take off

So yet another scheme we had great hopes would help regenerate the area has been grounded.
Kent County Council has pulled out of the deal with plane operator Cosmos just weeks before flights to Virginia were due to start at Manston because of a lack of interest.
Thousands of pounds of taxpayers money spent in promoting the flights has been wasted. Another opportunity lost.

The eco-friendly among us will be rejoicing: no increased jet noise or carbon emissions, and they have a point. We certainly have a responsibility to look after the environment and an airport is not the greenest of businesses.

But this is a massive blow to Thanet's economy and tourist industry. It would have boosted local shops, hotels, restaurants and bars.

The tough question we have to ask is:

"Is Manston viable as an international airport?"
First EUjet folded in 2005 and now the deal with Cosmos has fallen flat.

We don't want to waste any more taxpayer's money. Let's hope a way can be found to improve the isle's economy so everyone can benefit.
.

[Hangar_9]

The Thanet gazzete report i read seems a lot less pessimistic than this.
I cant help but think taht your bringing your own one sided view into this.
Care to give the full article before making a comment.?

[Twitcher]

A lot of people are querying the truth in the rumour that he ban is lifted.
Officially they can fly again from Thursday so expect an announcement on their site midweek. In the meantime here is a mention on the BBC news site.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6418891.stm

The European Union has barred most of the planes of Pakistan International Airlines from flying to the 27-nation bloc because of safety concerns.
The ban affects 35 of the airline's fleet of 42 aircraft, with just seven Boeing 777s exempted.

The EU said last year it would ban flights unless the airline revamped its ageing fleet.

PIA said last week it strongly opposed the planned ban, which it did "not consider justifiable".

The airline's flights to London, Paris, Rome and Amsterdam will be among those affected.

The EU said it based its ruling on safety concerns surrounding the condition of PIA's fleet of 747s and Airbus 310s.

The EU has allowed the airline to continue to operate its flagship 777s.

'Grave consequences'

Last week, a team led by the airline's chairman and the Pakistan envoy to Brussels met with EU representatives to try to resolve the issue.

A PIA statement released after that meeting said it "strongly disagreed with the EU's proposed action and on the given facts does not consider it to be justifiable".

The ban spells further trouble for an airline once regarded as the best in Asia, observers say.

The routes affected are some of the most lucrative for the airline and will be a blow for its revenues, they say.

"I would say we will have to cut at least 15% to 20% of our European operations," a PIA official told Reuters news agency.

PIA took a large cut in its domestic and Middle Eastern revenues after the Pakistani government forced it to ground its outdated Fokker fleet.

The action was taken following a huge public outcry after a number of accidents involving the aircraft, one of which resulted in a crash killing 45 people in July 2006.

Separately, the European Commission, the EU's executive arm, removed Phuket Air of Thailand and the African carrier DAS Air Cargo from its list of banned aircraft after they made safety improvements.

[deedave]

H9-

Not sure what you are on about.

The leading article of a newspaper is usually written by the editor and reflects the editorial position of the publication (sometimes called the "leader" or "editorial")

I have quoted the full article from Friday 2nd March.

The local press have hitherto given massive plugs to MSE, so this article represents a substantial shift. Like so many of us, they appear to be losing faith in the project.

[Dont tell um pike]

Please tell me we're not taking our lead from the cabbage weekly now :{
DTUP

[Hangar_9]

a feeling of deyjavo!

[Manston Airport]

The Press make most of the storys up as they go-along:ok: The DAS website as been updated.Also it was good seeing three Jumbos Land on Sunday;)

James

[tilewood]

Hanger-9 "A feeling of dayjavo."

Funny that's the feeling I get every time I dip into the Manston thread.

Or is it Deja Vu ?

There it's happened again!

[niknak]

A friend, who is a reasonably well placed and respected investment bod in "The City" tells me that Infratril are "reviewing" their UK and European Airport Investments.
He tells me that when this information comes through the City, it usually means the Company concerned has given up and is bailing out.

Given the woeful revenue stream and constantly increasing debt Manston is incurring, is it any suprise?:ugh: :rolleyes:

[Andy_S]

Given the woeful revenue stream and constantly increasing debt Manston is incurring, is it any suprise?

Given that a) they've already put a fair bit of money into the place, b) they always planned Manston to be a long term investment, and c) freight development is ahead of plan, then yes - I would be surprised.

[Jes]

On Monday 9 new handling staff started at Manston.

The passenger routes are a bit slow in developing, but I think that's true of all 3 of the active European airports (the UK is in Europe). If anything I think the other two are not growing at all, and Manston has shot past Prestwick in terms of cargo tonnage. Their non-European airports are struggling too. Perhaps they're just not very good at running them.

I heard recently that Infratil think they paid too much for Manston, but that's in the past.

[Herne Bay]

Infratil Airports Europe Limited (IAEL) are delighted to announce the secondment of Matt Clarke to the position of General Manager of Kent International Airport (KIA) on an acting basis. Matt is currently Group Transport Manager for IAEL, having joined the Company in September 2006.
His previous role was CEO at Rotorua Airport in New Zealand where he spent six years. Rotorua is a major tourist centre on New Zealand’s North Island with regular scheduled services from Air New Zealand and Qantas.
Matt, 27, joined Rotorua as Operations Manager and became CEO in 2004. Matt is also a private pilot with a degree in Management.
Since the departure of Phill Vann, the role of General Manager has been filled on an interim basis by IAEL’s Tom Wilson, the former Managing Director of Glasgow Prestwick Airport.
Tom has been appointed General Manager of Lübeck Airport from April 1 2007.
The secondment will commence in mid-March for an anticipated period of six months. A process to recruit a permanent General Manager for KIA will commence shortly.
Steven Fitzgerald, IAEL’s Chief Executive, commented: “I am certain that Matt’s CEO experience, knowledge of aviation and demonstrated aptitude for leadership and people management will ensure his success in his secondment to the General Manager role.

“I am also confident that Matt and the KIA Management team, with the backing of the IAEL Group, will continue the exciting development of KIA.

“KIA is already one the top 10 UK freight airports with a reputation for excellent service and has enormous potential to meet the growing needs of passenger airlines serving Kent and the South East.”

Matt said: “KIA is an airport with tremendous potential and I look forward to the opportunity to contribute to its ongoing success.”

Sounds like there be around for a while yet, I think to grow the freight business in a very competive market place.
I think they are doing well

[fj1]

niknak, which "city"

[Hangar_9]

LYDD (next to the major International airport)

[blazing_air]

I have to say the feeling amongst staff is that they are in good hands too, beleive me they have seen a lot of ups and downs over the years and tend to have a sixth sense when it comes to the trend of the operating company.
So, while i would not like to tempt fate, i am fairly confident that MSE on it's way up, albeit baby steps at the moment, but at least it's heading in the right direction.

[MDIS]

There is a good chance that you will see some Wolrd Airways aircraft at MSE in the near future.

[blazing_air]

Really MDIS?
I was told only the other day that their programme this year doesn't include MSE.
What information do you have ?

[weevhearditb4]

Hi,

Yes indeed lots of large bills (coming their way) for Infratils investment at Manston. I hear that there will be an almighty big bill to sort out the runway run offs and this is complicated by no discharge consent licence into Pegwell Bay...well that whats doing the rumour rounds in Ramsgate - any of you guys and girls no anything about this?:eek:

[Herne Bay]

Ryanair to begin services to dublin from 28th March 2008 basing 2 737-800 aircraft at manston.
Found this on the net is it right ?

[Manston Airport]

:eek: wow hope its true but I dont think so? but what was the website you got it from? Seems odd too base two 737-800 on MSE-DUB route unless they expand:ok:


Regards
James

[function]

by blazing air...."I have to say the feeling amongst staff is that they are in good hands"

and a lot of staff aren't entirely sure whose hands they are in, sightings of the senior management have been v rare and the lack of information and news from Infratil is v disappointing. The feeling is that staff are being left to just try and get on with it and no one has any idea how the airport is actually doing.....the lay offs in 2005 are still very fresh in peoples minds.

[blazing_air]

my comments were made in comparison to: planestation/eujet/wiggins etc etc
By the way H.B, I've been on Ryanair site and had a scout around but can't anything related to them basing at MSE next year ?
Maybe you could post the link ?

[honeysweetcombe]

Been on Ryanair site to Blaze, i can't find anything either.
Site visits by senior management aren,t that rare, once a month they are down to ensure that the local management are ok and that WIP is going to plan.

[Herne Bay]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_International_Airport
gives the ryanair info

[fj1]

"Ryanair to begin services to dublin from 28th March 2008 basing 2 737-800 aircraft at manston"
Looks like it was has posted on the 1 March by someone on North Carolina Research and Education Network. Anyone can change information on that website.

[blazing_air]

well i read it, but don't beleive it, how can you trust the information that is posted on there?
Seems a bit strange to me as airlines don't usually announce so far ahead.

[Jes]

2 based machines to fly one route at weekends? Ludicrous.
My understanding is that Ryanair is the last airline Infratil wants to see at Manston. They are in their grip at Prestwick and Lübeck, and their appearance at Manston would scare off everybody else. Who knows?

[fj1]

ba - Its the same as this site - You can't

[Herne Bay]

I have been back onto the web site this morning and the ryanair info has been removed.
I am not the only one who saw this posting.

[MDIS]

Catflaps

HB has a point, he is only quoting a web site, but I am sure we are all agreed Wikipedia must be wrong..

Unless Ryanair know something no one else does ie there will be the demand for 2 737-800's operating from MSE to DUB and only at weekends in March 2008, the info must be incorrect or may I suggest a wind up!

28th March is very close to April 1st!!!!

MDIS

[MDIS]

Just looked at the site and hB is correct the info has gon.

Interestingly if you register and log in you can edit sections of the text!?

Looks like someone has set a hare running and a few greyhounds have shot out of the traps!

MDIS

[frostbite]

If the airport gets passenger traffic proportionate to the amount of traffic in this thread it should do rather well.

[Manston Airport]

So that explain why I could not see it then:ugh: Are the World airways doing the troop flights?:confused:

All the best
James

[catflaps]

"HB has a point, he is only quoting a web site,"

Indeed he was. However, when the original post was made no source was cited for the information. Now that the source has been presented we can all see that the information was false. I'm not saying that people should have to post sources for everything they post. It is a rumour network after-all. When someone posts something and says it is a rumour I think we can all use our common sense to decide whether to attach any credence to it. I just think that when someone posts something which they say they found on the internet, it would be helpful to give us the URL.

[Manston Airport]

I just think that when someone posts something which they say they found on the internet, it would be helpful to give us the URL.

I agree Catflaps:ok: But we dont know if that information was true and that Ryanair got the website to removel it as they not released about it.

James

[catflaps]

From today's Isle of Thanet Gazette. It's part of a much larger article about the collpase of the Cosmos flights. I'm afraid I don't have time to type it all out:

"When Infratil took over the airport in 2005 the firm said progress would be slow and was prepared to run the airport at a loss of £10 million while trade built up."

"Chief Executive, Steve Fitzgerald said the company was looking to build 700,000 passengers by 2009 and 45,000 tonnes of cargo."

"He added: "We know that we won't start to make money until 2009 and will be operating at losses of about eight to £10 million but we are prepared for this."

"Last week, Mr. Fitzgerald said the company will reach a passenger figure of 600,000 within three years."

So, some hefty losses already and some hefty losses to come. What's worse, they don't seem to be making much progress towards the targets they've set for themselves for passengers.

[deedave]

...and in the same article - "A Greek-based low-cost carrier is also expected to make an announcement about cheap flights by the summer".

Another load of old cobblers? Or another lamb to the slaughter?

On the letters page, a former commercial director of MSE writes virtually begging people to support the airport - as if it were some kind of charity.

Most embarrassing.

[ChrisGr31]

I wouldn't say it was embarrassing to be almost begging people to use the airport.

I can imagine that if you live locally its a mixed blessing. A busy airport would provide employment, but at the same time it will produce noise from flights.

For the airport to survive it has to, I assume, hit certain targets. In the case of passengers those are likely to have to come from the immediate area as those living outside the immediate area are unlikely to even think of flying from Manston at the moment.

I live the other side of Tunbride Wells from Manston but I can see benefits to flying from Manston. It may be an hour and quarter or half drive, but the drive is more reliable than going to Heathrow or Stanstead (yes Gatwick is about 45 mins). Not only that but if the road is shut there are a number of other options, whereas if the M25 or M11 is shut I'm stuffed.

However unless there are flights I can't fly from Manston, and I am not a frequent flyer! So on my own I am not going to create the business.

Whats effectively needed is an airlne with big pockets who can afford to lose money in years 1 and 2, whilst trade builds up.

[catflaps]

"I can imagine that if you live locally its a mixed blessing. A busy airport would provide employment, but at the same time it will produce noise from flights."

A mixed blessing indeed. However, the airport is currently haemorrhaging local support because of their behaviour. The last three Sundays they've had training flights screaming around all over the Isle, not sticking to the agreed routes and going on for hours on end. It's almost as if they are trying to wind the locals up. Today they've had Astraeus going round and round ad nauseam. Many people are now questioning whether it is worth all of this aggravation for a measly 30 jobs. A business park of almost any size would produce more employment without the environmental downsides.

[Dartania]

Catflaps do you ever fly on holiday and if so do you expect properly trained aircrew??.Circuit training both in small and large aircraft is a vital part of producing the finished product..... a safe airline flight.I suspect the airport has existed for many more years than you have lived in Ramsgate and it was certainly a lot noisier than present in past years.On that basis you have no reason to complain.You didn,t have to choose where you live near a large runway.In the years to come the south -east will require all the runways it currently has and a few more if its economy is to compete with the rest of the world.Enjoy the aircraft noise its the sign of a vibrant economy and a free world.:ok:

[Manston Airport]

I saw that 757 at westwood cross its was brilliant seeing a 757 at MSE:D and I saw that 747 doing circuits last sunday . It was Oasis Hong Kong Airlines. Oh and Catflaps whats the the agreed route then?



Regards
James

[MDIS]

Guys

Lets all be a bit careful, or we will end up where we were last month, "off line"

I understand everyones frustrations but some posters are changing their opinions more often than their shirt.

On the one hand you want the airport to attract business and slate the management when it doesnt happen. This could be freight, passengers or just revenue earners; and on the other hand there are complaints about airlines performing go arounds. As it was Astraeus, this might suggest that they will be operating the Kent Escapes Flights? (please note question not fact)

There is far too much emotion from both sides of the argument. If MSE survives and prospers all well and good, if it doesnt, who gives a sh1t, it's not as if we have all invested as we did with Wiggins, Planestation, Toytown plc.

I get the feeling that Infratil are serious about running an airport at MSE, and that they are willing to put their money where their mouths are and give it their best shot.

There will be setbacks as with Virginia but they seem committed and good luck to them. There are lots of minor works taking place at the moment which would suggest that Infratil are not looking at housing or business parks just yet.

Still sitting on the fence

MDIS

[deedave]

James-

A 757 at Westwood Cross shopping centre????

Sounds like that pilot was lost.

You are not allowed to land aeroplanes in shopping centres.

[MDIS]

Thats why MSE is so quiet!!!

London Westwood Cross Airport is open and no one noticed.

And its closer to the rail link!!!!

[Manston Airport]

lol :ugh: Sorry all I mean I saw it flying around at westwood cross.

James

[catflaps]

"Oh and Catflaps whats the the agreed route then?"

There are published flight-paths for aircraft arriving and departing from runways 10 and 28. There are also routes which have been agreed for the training circuits. The local Council can provide you with copies if you ask them. I imagine the airport could also provide you with copies since they agreed these routes originally. Departure from the agreed routes is a breach of the legal agreement between the airport operator and the local Council. It is Infratil's responsibility to ensure that aircraft adhere to the agreed routes unless there are extenuating circumstances.

[Dont tell um pike]

"training flights screaming around all over the Isle"

or

Providing a facility for crew training on either procedural approaches or visual circuits.

"It's almost as if they are trying to wind the locals up"

or

Trying to run a business.

"worth all of this aggravation for a measly 30 jobs"

or
to Become part of the much need rejuvenation of an economically depressed area

Happy Friday :ok:
DTUP

[fj1]

MDIS - Its unlikely Astraeus, would use a 757 on a route from manston
Manston Airport - the routing into and out of Manston are on the net. google it.
Catflaps - Routing ain't Infratil or the councils responsibility! Its
the CAA/NATS/Zone ATC and finally the captain of an aircraft
job to find the safest route for a aircraft.
It's almost as if they are trying to wind the locals up - its because
they have to - its a requirement. To maximum time and minimise
fuel burn, airlines use less busy airports in the 'middle of no where'
Some good news for you, Netjet now seem to have spilt there flight
training between Lydd and Manston now.

[MDIS]

So, who is to blame if Astraeus have violated the agreed routes

ATC?
Infratil?
Local Management?
Pilots?

I am sure if rules have been violated there will be slapped wrists.

Without being personal does this complaint not highlight the anti Manston stance. "Continue to state that MSE cannot become a viable airport and lets have a business park which doesnt have noisy aircraft overhead"

MDIS

[MDIS]

Astraus have been linked to the Kent Escapes routes and so I thought this might be the reason for the training.
However you are right most probably 737 and not 757, so it is probably only ad hoc training.

It would need to have found a different route when MK and the antonov were due today. Maybe this is what the complaints are about.

MDIS

[fj1]

I'll just point out, Astraus where training today, not last sunday when catflaps alleged an aircraft was not sticking to an agreed route.

[Hangar_9]

...and in the same article - "A Greek-based low-cost carrier is also expected to make an announcement about cheap flights by the summer".


This isnt esperia in the media again is it?

[deedave]

Esperia ??? !!!

Oh God ! Please yes!!!

I'm a bit miserable at the minute and I could do with a good laugh......

[Twitcher]

Re: I'm a bit miserable at the minute and I could do with a good laugh......
you're always miserable! :uhoh:
and NO, that wasn't a personal attack, don't ask a mod for help, just a micky taking statement :p

[deedave]

A realisation that MSE is a non-economically viable airport does not characterise a person as miserable. Simply observant, and capable of applying a bit of deductive reasoning.

[catflaps]

"Catflaps - Routing ain't Infratil or the councils responsibility! Its
the CAA/NATS/Zone ATC and finally the captain of an aircraft
job to find the safest route for a aircraft."

So, can I just check that I've got this right? The airport has agreed a set of flight routes with the local authority. These have been put onto maps, which are being handed out to members of the public who ask what the routes are. But the airport has no control over the flight routes and no means of means of ensuring that aircraft stick to them. Is Manston in controlled airspace?

[Manston Airport]

I did a post but it seems to have gone it had a link to a website that had what I think where the routes on landing rwy 10 and 28 and take off.Plus last sunday aircraft was a Oasis Hong Kong Airlines 747-400:ok:

Regards
James

[Dont tell um pike]

" Is Manston in controlled airspace? "

No ! :ugh:

DTUP

[fj1]

Landing, departure and go-round procedures for Manston are issued by the CAA not the airport or the local authority.

[niknak]

fj1

Wrong me old fruit, such procedures are formulated by the Airport and then approved by the CAA. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Hangar_9]

:} Knwone really answered my question..
That Greek based airline to announce flights by summers end?
Honestly what is that all about?

[MDIS]

Egyptair to recommence operations from MSE this week!

Haven't heard anything about the Greek operator. Where did the rumour start from?

MDIS

[Manston Airport]

Good to hear that Egyptair are starting back at MSE.Sorry to post this here but I cant find it on here if so please move it to right place: At one off my favorite Kent airfields yesterday a Plane crashed at Headcorn OY-JRR .The pilot has died from Head injurys report here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/6441333.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/6441333.stm)

RIP:(

James

[Hangar_9]

Is that the Black Beaver Parachute club plane. Sorry cant be bothered to read the article.

Was down there about 4 days before this and i must say, with the benefit of hindsight, the pilot himself was touchy with his takeoff-s then. Perhaps he was ill or something. Flying even when your nose is runny is bad, trust me...:{

[Manston Airport]

HI H9 yes it was the Black Beaver OY-JRR which the Parachute club have in during the Winter and In the Summer the Let 410.Yeah lets hope the AAIB find out what went wrong.

James

[catflaps]

"Wrong me old fruit, such procedures are formulated by the Airport and then approved by the CAA."

So, what you're saying is that the airport operator does have some influence over the routes which are flown by aircraft using the airport. It's noce when someone confirms that you were right all along.

[Hangar_9]

Catflaps can we get over this routes business. It was a one off training fligh that quite frankly isnt happening anough even to bother the birds living on the runway approach lights! :\

[catflaps]

"..can we get over this routes business. It was a one off training flight.."

I beg to differ. The routes being used around Manston, both for training and for other flights, frequently don't correlate with the route maps handed out by the local Council. I don't think it's remotely unreasonable for local people to want to know where the routes are supposed to be. I also don't think it's remotely unreasonable to want to know who's supposed to be in control of the situation. As previous posts from a variety of posters indicate, this is a matter of some confusion:

"So, who is to blame if Astraeus have violated the agreed routes
ATC?
Infratil?
Local Management?
Pilots?"


"Routing ain't Infratil or the councils responsibility! Its
the CAA/NATS/Zone ATC and finally the captain of an aircraft "


"Landing, departure and go-round procedures for Manston are issued by the CAA not the airport or the local authority."

So, it's everybody (or is that nobody) then?

[blazing_air]

catflaps
I don't wish to trivialise your concern over flight paths, but why don't you take this up with the airline or the airport instead of drawing out a subject on here which you are obviously not going to get a satisfactory answer to.

[weevhearditb4]

Hi,

There is clearly a problem with off route Jets (at Manston) and this forum is about getting to matters of fact as well as discussing the odd rumour. Catflaps is right we seem to have an odd situation with Manston the old operators did one thing and the new operators are doing another. Now its clear that the 106 agreement which is voluntary (at Manston), means nothing now - this has a bearing on all airports in the UK as voluntary 106 agreements and Airports are a bad thing. Another aspect of this is the CAA does not engage appropriately with airport communities which does not aid any transparency with a so called watchdog.

I have looked at the so called 106 agreement departure, training and landing routes and something is not right, so we do need to know who actually controls Manston airspace - and who dictates which take off and landing routes are in operation as there is a small matter of noise abatement is there not -and at every airport i believe. Manston does not have a gated noise monitoring system so any noise monitoring is not worth the paper its printed on if jets are not on the designated routes.

[Manston Airport]

But was the 106 agreement with Planestation not Infratil:confused: Plus Reports of removal of noise monitors by Infratil and failure to repair radar continue to grow From Wikipedia :ok:

James

[Buster the Bear]

I have not checked in here for a while, I wondered what loads Esperia were getting?

[blazing_air]

pie in the sky Buster - just another pipe dream from another dreamer

[MDIS]

James

Be careful what you read here, after all this is where Ryanair chose to announce their Dublin routes from MSE in 2008!!!!!!

Catflaps

How often are aircraft violating the agreed routes?

If it is on a daily basis perhaps this could be taken up with the airport management in the first instance who could then maybe shed some light on the matter or at least point you in the right direction to lodge a complaint.

If is on an irregular ad hoc basis is it really worth worrying about at the moment? I would agree with you if for example a permanent operator was violating the routes 20 times per day it would need to be addressed.

With all the pessimistic views posted that MSE doesn't have a cat in hells chance of being successful as an airport I dont think there will be too much noise pollution or distress caused to the residents on the ground.

However if the airport does attract a few operators I am sure the topic of routes and noise will be addressed.

MDIS

[ChrisGr31]

Wikipedia can be edited by any individual who could have a vested interest, and therefore is probably unreliable in this context.

As regards anyone with a concern about flight training I would phone or write to the airport and ask some questions. A carefully worded polite approach may get a sympathetic hearing, rather than an all guns blazing approach.

[deedave]

I'm never bothered by aircraft noise so I am unaware of the problems being talked about.

The only thing I have noticed is aircraft flying East-ish over Ramsgate, before making a Westbound final approach over the town (not training circuits).

There are plenty of other routes to get into position without going over Ramsgate twice.

Doesn't bother me 'cos I love aeroplanes, but it seems a bit dim-witted to annoy the general population unnecessarily.

I suppose as Ramsgate gets the bulk of the landings, it would be good PR to avoid flying over the town unless absolutely essential.

[Manston Airport]

Dont know if thats off any help at all?http://www.manstonairport.org.uk/htdocs/ILS%2028.pdf


Regards
James

[niknak]

The last post demonstrates the alarming ignorance of the poster and et al, all he's posted is an instrument approach plate for MAnston, I could do the same for Heathrow and claim it was to promote double glazing sales in the Hounslow area, and not be challenged.
What you've really got to establish is, are there enough operators using Manston in2007 to make the company a profit? the answer is No.
In the unlikely event of Ranair coming to Manston in 2008, (10 months away), will their operation will never make a profit for the airport - the answer is NO, hats off to Ryanair if they do -another airport to exploit - but it almost certainly wont happen either way.
Face it chaps, Manston/Lubeck - bad investment, shortly to be off loaded...

[Andy_S]

What you've really got to establish is, are there enough operators using Manston in2007 to make the company a profit?
Wrong.
Of course Manston won't make a profit in 2007. Even it's most die hard supporters wouldn't suggest that. And most importantly, Infratil never expected to in the first place.
No, what you've really got to establish is whether there'll be enough operators using Manston in 2009 or 2010 to make it profitable.
Maybe it will, maybe it won't. I can't foresee the future. But it seems premature to write it off based on todays levels of business when Infratil made it clear from the outset that they were working to a longer term plan that involved supporting the airport for several years.

[deedave]

True enough.

No-one can see into the future.

All you can do is take a guess based on past events, current situation, and likely developments, both on a micro and macro level.

I like to think of it in terms of percentage odds - which I appreciate is a rather intuitive and inexact science.

On the Planestation shareholders noticeboard, when faced with a wall of EUjet optimists, I gave odds of 10% for the survival of the operation.

These days I would give MSE odds of around 2%-5% to reach breakeven before Infratil's temporal deadline, or expenditure cap.

One must remember that it is not simply a question of operators USING the facility, but paying a credible commercial rate for it.

Historical precedent, coupled by statements from Infratil would suggest it is difficult to acheive this at MSE.

[MDIS]

As we are meant to be self regulating, it might be worth calming down a little as the tone is deteriorating.

As I posted earlier if the airport is doomed to failure why is anyone complaining about a few aircraft using the wrong approach routes. If as is being suggested there will be a housing estate on the site soon, all the local residents will have to worry about will be the lack of schools, the waste water from the estate getting into the aquifer, the additional unemployment burden etc etc.

Do you really believe that Ryanair are going to base 2 aircraft at weekends only at MSE????

Infratil are careful with their money and would not be employing 10 more ramp staff if something wasnt on the horizon. I would go for a 20%- 30%chance of success.

I dont know how to start it but perhaps a more experienced ppruner could start a poll of some description.

MDIS

[deedave]

I am no "seasoned financial wizard", but one thing I have noticed is that it is often the ventures that an ordinary person would assess as receiving a lot of investment, which end up being scrapped (Look at the Virginia flights)

For IFT, the amount of cash they are spending at MSE is pocket money.

To quote Lloyd Morrison (Infratil Management) "Basically we have spent a small amount of money, and we may well have lost it".

BTW does the new ramp staff mean the firecrews don't have unload MK any more?

[Manston Airport]

But Dave do you really think flights to Virginia was the right place to fly too from MSE even MAN or EDI dont fly to Virginia I think:confused:

Regards
James

[deedave]

Do I think MSE to Virginia was a go-er?

Well, with hindsight, clearly not.

I was cynical at first, but when I realised what a miniscule percentage of the population was required for a decent load factor, I thought the service would go ahead, despite my belief that MSE itself is no-go.

Clearly the takeup was woeful and it was right to cancel.

I guess the thinking was - "We've tried lo-co, that was no good - Freight is tolerable but unstable and shows no sign of returning to its 2003 peak - Short haul is stable-ish but feeble, and we're gonna lose it to Lydd eventually.......Lets give long-haul charter a go...."

Make no mistake, however, the Virginia failure is a pivotal event.

A whole raft of influential people who were giving MSE the benefit of the doubt are no longer doing so, and this will reverberate through the coming months.

[Manston Airport]

I think MSE can work out to right places as EUjet showed some off them .Just dont start flights to CPH ;) . Think Cosmos should have done Orlando then Virginia and it beat traveling all the way to LGW when MSE is providing the same service to Orlando.When the Echo ramp gets a bit bigger hope some more cargo airlines come in,Well MSE is the top 10 for freight in the UK .

All the Best
James

[takeoff2006]

Thats interesting you mention Lydd, I have been following the development of both these two regional airports and am of the opinion that MSE will grow as a freight and long haul commercial pax operation, however I invisage LYX will develop as a regional short haul domestic and european pax op.

I think its so dissapointing that we have these two airports both in Kent both having some facilities that the other doesnt have and yet neither have been sucessful to date in attracting a scheduled operator, I am longing to take my next holiday with a loco flight from on of these regional operators and i know a lot of other people who also would like to.

im told that it can take around 18 months for an airline to carry out fesability studies and route planning, release a/c etc.. before starting a route.. how long have infratil owned MSE now, how far through any negotiations might they be??? interesting

[Hangar_9]

What gets me is that the anti's use one particular problem and boast the IDEA that manston could fail altogether?
The air corridor issue is being blown out of proportion to what is going on.
If regular flights occured, i mean 10-12 flights a day were making in for MSE the noise would be an issue. But as it stands... ermm theres what 1 or 2 a day, my parents live in whitstable under the runway 10 app. they are not bothered by acouple of jets at rooftop height every couple of days.
I like to think i provide a mixed oponion on this matter. I take each event as it happens an talk about just that.
What i am trying to get at is that the virginia flights failed, yes, the majority agree that it was not an ideal venture for MSE and infratil but how on earth can this suggest that every other operation i doomed to failure. kent escapes have proved a viable market exist from the airport to a few SUITABLE destinations. Inartil laid out te idea that outoing passengers to holiday destintaions was the key. Its has begun to happen and they apepar to be right? This is where the future may lie. Every business runs the financial risk of venturing into something new, some things work, some dont.
I think we need to take step back an think, OK:
Virginia failed, but on the other hand The kent escapes have'nt.
MK have returned, and as yet to leave.
Eygpt Air are returning for a second time impressed.
DAS to continue.

Anyway anough from me i am bored having to talk now.:)

[blazing_air]

I enjoy coming on here and reading the threads posted about KIA, some i agree some i don't and it is very obvious that there are some posters that have not and never will have a good word to say about the airport, which doesn't bother me, as we all have our axes to grind against something.
What i can say is while all the short term gains and losses are debated in minute detail on here, we have to remember that Infratil have stated from day one, that they are in it for the long term and long term investment takes time and money.
In that scense Infratil have only been owners for a very short period and since taking over have invested steadily in equpment, manpower and structure. Even with the most cynical view this would tell someone looking in, that they are doing exactly what they set out to do.
Behind the scenes investment and negotiations are conitnuing on a daily basis, the fruits of which may not be seen for weeks, months or years, but it is happening and the airport is growing.
I personally have had my doubts over the future of the airport and still have a few now, but i'm certainly not going to write off the place while the airport continues to attract new business and continues investing.

[Jes]

Well said BA.

All the breast-beating over the last few days about training flights stemmed from one poster complaining! Good to see the Gulfstream and the 757 in the circuit today. In fact a splendid day, with the return of EgyptAir and the first visit of World Airways for maintenance at DAS, plus oodles of general aviation.

[MDIS]

Catflaps

I am sure there is investment going on but it is not the kind that Infratil would go public with as it isnt very exciting or newsworthy.

New taxiway lighting, demolition of the old bonded store due to asbestos and to make way for a new oil tank plus many more boring projects. All of which must be in preparation for potential new operators. I dont think we will see another EUjet style operation but more charters and perhaps some schedules which won't necessarily be Low Cost.

More effort would need to be made in order to attract bizjets but the airport cannot be all things to all men. It would appear that the main focus at the moment is on building the freight business, and from what I hear they are getting fairly slick in turnarounds and the current operators like the service provided.

If DAS can attract some more maintenance business, Summit go ahead with their new jet engine facility and Avia (Air Atlanta) keep bringing aircraft in for cleaning and servicing the whole business park could rapidly fill with Aviation related businesses which in turn will attract others to the area.

The airport does need some passenger traffic as these pax will spend in the carparks and the retail outlet providing a cash revenue.

I think, providing Infratil hold their nerve they can make a reasonable success of MSE. NikNak apparently knows different and whilst I am not going to dismiss his info I think its a bit too early for them to throw in the towel.

Enough waffle from me, what are the views out there?

MDIS

[PPRuNe Pop]

There has been little to complain about since the new thread started, but then an idiot posted almost verbatim that which someone else had written. He is now on break to improve his manners. :ugh:

[blazing_air]

:D Thank you mods

[Hangar_9]

At last. The admins/Mods have seen sense.
WOW! :}
Cheers guys.
Anyway. Back on topic....

So World Airways. I thought they had a fleet of MD-11's. Like they used on the american routes from MSE?

[Jes]

Infratil's report

Kent International handled 2,408 tonnes of freight during February, a year on year increase of nearly 50%. The drop of 15% on January volumes is considered to be primarily a seasonal issue.

Cosmos and Kent County Council announced that the weekly summer charter service to Virginia would not be operating. This venture, which was initiated and primarily backed by the local Governments at each end, would have been an unexpected bonus on business plan expectations. At 26 total flights, the volumes would have been modest. The best prospects remain for domestic and European scheduled and charter services.

[Manston Airport]

Where my post gone again :eek: :mad: .Anyway what I was asking was is there a DAS DC-10 and another World Airways DC-10F coming in next week to MSE for maintenance.

Regards

James

[deedave]

"The 15% drop on January volumes is primarily a seasonal issue"

Seems unlikely - Prestwick freight went up by over 300 tonnes....

Anyhows....freight has always been like this at MSE - operators come, they go, they come back, they go again etc - it's a kind of yo-yo effect, rather than steady growth.

Planestation acheived the best tonnage about 4 years ago.

Not to worry. Folks will be able to cheer themselves up when Kent Escapes start in six weeks. Even someone such as myself who believes MSE is doomed, can see that offering a miniscule capacity to extremely popular destinations will mean full aircraft (at least before Lydd gets going).

Of course, if the aircraft AIN'T full, then MSE isn't just doomed, it's double-doomed with brass knobs on, then gawd 'elp the lot of us.......

[tommyc2005]

Manston Airport - Your missing post was (in common with most if not all of your posts) regarding spotting, not professional aviation news or debate. I imagine thats why the mods deleted it. Respectfully, and this isn't meant as a personal attack, I suggest in future you post in the spectators forum as I'm sure you don't want this topic closed again.

Right, I have heard through the grapevine that the BMed freight rumours were way off the mark, what was actually being looked at was MSE becoming the daily recipient of a certain high profile 'ghost' flight. Anyone heard anything?

[Andy_S]

Right, I have heard through the grapevine that the BMed freight rumours were way off the mark, what was actually being looked at was MSE becoming the daily recipient of a certain high profile 'ghost' flight. Anyone heard anything?
Well, I read it in the Sunday Times!!!
Yes, a spokesman for the airline in question confirmed that they had considered Manston (amongst other alternatives). The reason given for not taking their interest any further was that they needed to fly to an airport that was open 24 hours, and MSE isn't.

[Manston Airport]

Ok thank you Tommy,If thats what it is then could the Mods PM me then please and I will post on the Spectators Balcony ( Spotters Corner (http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=52)).

Regards
James

[tilewood]

Manston Airport- James

That was a dignified and mature response.

Well done.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Here here! Well done and thoughtful. Now if everyone thought as you do..........................:D

[Paradism]

I had not considered a comparison between Prestwick and Manston freight figures. However, it is interesting to note that for the months of Dec 06, Jan 07 and Feb 07, Manston has in fact outperformed Prestwick.
It is a valid comparison because Prestwick's freight performance figures for passenger aircraft can, for all intents and purposes, be ignored. For instance, one month there was only 9 tonnes carried on passenger flights.
January 07 was a poorer figure for Manston, probably due to the inclement weather in that month, but that is only an opinion and maybe someone can confirm whether that is the case.
What is not in doubt is that in January 07, Manston was 317 tonnes down on December 06 as has been pointed out. Note however, that year on year the tonnage handled in January 07 represented an increase of 1435 tonnes. Prestwick, for the same period, showed an increase of only 306 tonnes.
I have no idea how to post it here, but a graph I made of Manston/Prestwick freight figures, clearly indicates that since mid 2006, Manston has steadily been overhauling Prestwick as a freight mover. Whether this continues remains to be seen, but the Infratil strategy of gradual increase of freight traffic does seem, for the present, to be working.

[deedave]

Only if the revenue from this traffic is acceptable.

Infratil have stated they need to increase value from throughput.
MK are MSE's main carrier, and historically have benefited from heavy discounts. Without MK the airport could not maintain the appearance of almost daily use.

Favourable comparisons with other airports is meaningless unless a full commercial rate is being charged at MSE.

[Ad C]

I see that Das Maintainence have been rather busy the last few days, with three plane being worked on over the weekend and a forth this afternoon. (I'm Assuming that they have been working on their own plane). Is this a sign of things to come or just a blip?

[Paradism]

deedave
I couldn't agree more that Infratil have to increase value from throughput.

The plain fact is that we do not know what the rates are that Infratil are charging MK. Personally, I suspect that MK are not offered heavy discounts, but that is only my view. It would set a bad precedent and they would be pressured to offer similar terms to other carriers. That is not the way to run a profitable business and Infratil strike me as more professional than that..

We will just have to watch and wait.

P

[Herne Bay]

If you look at the Kent International Web site then go to flight info, the Domain name KIA has run out . So you cannot look up any flight info and weather on daisy. Is the system being changed, or have they forgot to renew the domain name.

[Twitcher]

Ad C
DAS Air were maintaining one aircraft of World Airways from Weds last week through to Sat. Another World Airways is due tomorrow and one of their own fleet due on Friday.
The DC10 in DAS colours on the ramp is owned by Boeing and in storage. The 747s on the ramp are being maintained by Air Atlanta.

[Hangar_9]

Hernebay , i would like to think that a new website is being made and updated.
At least lets hope the domain is re-instated?

On the note of the AFX B742 being scrapped.... what is the state of play with that area of the airfield?
It has always been just a "Storage" area but is there any plans to do something with it?

[blazing_air]

H9
I have recently been told that both Manston and Prestwicks websites are being revamped - daisy is having a few problems at the moment and the last i heard, was that AFX was just waiting for official paperwork to be completed before it can be scrapped, but prob by the summer it will be gone.
In fact if you have a look on the air salvage website it is pictured there...

[weevhearditb4]

Hi,

Yes indeed paperwork required - probably from the Environment Agency for a licence to continue salvaging of this 747.

[Jes]

http://www.kent-online.co.uk/news/default.asp?article_id=31489

Interesting background stuff here.

A good source at Manston has suggested to me that Infratil were secretly quite pleased that the project, which was started back in PlaneStation days, had collapsed, as it would have resulted in expensive peak provision of resources.

[tommyc2005]

The Seguro flights this summer will be operated by UK Jet.

[Jes]

Who are these people, Tommy? The Kent Escapes website shows the flights with GSW numbers - Sky Wings, of Greece.

[airhumberside]

Didn't a Sky Wings MD-83 operate for XLA last summer at NEMA under the 'UK Jet' name?

[tommyc2005]

Yes, its a curious set-up, I believe Viking of Sweden (rumoured to be operating a while ago) own the aircraft which is registered in Greece but flies under the UK Jet name. They were indeed based in NEMA last year, this year it will be Prestwick based but operating to MSE on a W pattern Thu, Fri and Sun.

[Manston Airport]

Hi all I Think its Excel using an Mad Dog MD83 under the name off UK Jet from Viking maybe?. Jes I tried looking for Sky Wings but I cant find anything :confused: Tommy whats a W pattern?

Regards
James

[tommyc2005]

A 'W' pattern is where an aircraft makes a return journey from the destination airfield before heading back to base, in this case PIK-FAO-MSE-FAO-PIK.

[toptrumps]

Thisn is whats been going through the grape vine

Cargolux to operate once a week initially then maybe twice if all goes well on behalf of Ghana Airways

Atals Air to operate two B744 in April, cargo is A1 Grand Prix cars and spares ( beleive this is a weekend in the middle of April )

Gemini Cargo to use Das Air Engineering very shortly, World Airways already using with DC-10's and soon to have their pax MD-11's in for servicing

Das air possibly importing goods at the weekend before going in the hanger

Talks are being held with other companies and we are not talking small fry stuff

It will take time but wait and see the traffic increase ( negotiations in progress )

[Jes]

Gemini are visiting DAS this week to discuss maintenance. I don't believe anything's fixed yet, but World were very satisfied with the service. The hangar will have to be altered to take MD11s; again, I don't believe anything's agreed.

As for importation this weekend, maybe, but I heard the plane is positioning in from another UK airfield.

Keep us posted!

[blazing_air]

Oasis Hong Kong have blanket booked every saturday, through till the end of June for training !!

[Jes]

According to one of the Oasis guys, who was in the History Museum recently, they've booked 3 days a week for six months.

Good to see Astraeus are back again today for training: they seem to like the place. Shame that Virgin's training captains took against it.

[MDIS]

Are you talking about more cargo or pax?

MDIS

[Jes]

I'll correct my own post. The DAS flight on Saturday is coming from Lagos, so will probably bring in cargo, although it's already got a lot of spares booked.

[Manston Airport]

Atals Air to operate two B744 in April, cargo is A1 Grand Prix cars and spares ( beleive this is a weekend in the middle of April )


Is that when A1 Grand Prix are at Brands hatch ? Looks like some good stuff there toptrumps hope its true:p.MDIS I think toptrumps means cargo flights.

regards
james

[toptrumps]

Is that when A1 Grand Prix are at Brands hatch ? Looks like some good stuff there toptrumps hope its true:p.MDIS I think toptrumps means cargo flights

Its true as far as my good solid contacts say

I think it does conincide with the Brands Hatch stuff

I am talking Cargo negotiations not sure what is happening with the Pax side yet

[tommyc2005]

A solitary extra pax flight is happening, Air Malta to Malta, but not until late November.

[fj1]

The Malta flight is part of the Headline Travel program, that has operated for many years now. The flights starts in May and end with the Malta flight in November.

[Manston Airport]

Cool KM at MSE again the last I remember seeing them was on a cruise chater at Dover bring in a 737-200.:cool: Another thing on Kent Escape site it show the airline is GSW I looked at Sky Wings but they dont say what there code is ?

Regards
James

[deedave]

Local rag reports this week that Kent Council have been hauled over the coals regarding the Cosmos Virginia flights, and forced to reveal that they actually blew almost £300,000 of public cash on the venture - not the considerably lower figure they previously stated.

Total losses by all investors were in excess of a million pounds.

Still, I suppose it's only a drop in the ocean compared to the £100 Million-plus lost by MSE since 1999.

[Hangar_9]

DEEDAVE WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?
WHY DO YOU ONLY CARE ABOUT THE PAST AND THE NEGATIVES?
GET OVER IT SUNSHINE!:mad:

[deedave]

H9-

Accurate financial information and updates are relevant to all who take a professional interest in aviation. The Virginia losses were previously grossly understated.

[Manston Airport]

Deedave I am glad the Virginia flights are not happening as I dont belive that it's the right route for MSE,EUjet found some routes that worked shame there owner's went bust :ok: I was looking thourgh some old airliner worlds and it had a picture of an MNG A300F starting a new route to London Manston And I was wondering where they scared off by Planestation like Ethiopian Airlines Cargo and MK?

Regards
James

[deedave]

Hi James-

I don't think MK were scared off by Planestation - I think they simply decided not to use MSE when asked to pay a full commercial rate.

As far as the "right routes" (pax) for MSE are concerned, it is difficult to believe there are any.

Despite offering miniscule capacity to exceptionally popular destinations, Kent Escapes have taken out press ads this week to try and flog tickets for the summer schedule at what appear to be promotional prices.

They are also holding a promo day at MSE on Sunday.

The service starts in just over a month.

In their second year of operation, I would have expected such a small number of seats to be sold out by now.

[MDIS]

Dd

Can you give us a breakdown of the £100 Mill

MDIS

[blazing_air]

Bang on the money toptrumps.
Cargolux on site tommorrow prior to operations starting up with a flight a week with the possibility of more for the future..... watch this space, things are starting to happen.

deedave - i'll bet you an easter egg that there is a scheduled passenger operation at mse within 24 months.

[deedave]

blazing_air -

There may well be a scheduled airline at MSE. There are always rich types wanting to run loss-making vanity operations. Thay might even fill an aircraft if its small enough, infrequent enough, and cheap enough!

Failing this, however, I would like a Cadburys Milk Tray Easter egg (large).

MDIS-

The losses of 100 million were a generally undisputed figure given on the Wiggins/Planestation shareholders bulletin board. The money was a mixture of public grants and private investment. I did not calculate this figure myself, although I may have given it a cursory check a couple of years ago.

A breakdown requires trawling through the company accounts which may still be available somewhere in the vaults of ADVFN. Try going to the board and put in the epic PTG - you may get some joy there.
Happy hunting!

[blazing_air]

ha ha your on !
Mines a yorkie - extra large
Failing that i'll have the really big one in Teso's isle 1 - the one that takes 2 hands to carry !

[Jes]

Infratil are concentrating on freight at present. They have not been pushing passenger flights because of the infrastructure, which is now almost up to standard. The expanded cargo apron has been surveyed, but no contract has been let.

The name I keep hearing for passenger flights is easy.

Manston's problem is that it is not a major destination airport, i.e. there is little demand for morning flights to it for a typical twice-daily service. If the morning flight has to come in from elsewhere the return flight is too late for the business market, with a related effect in the evening. It follows that successful business routes must be operated by based aircraft. Difficult.

In addition, the first route will have a high cost base because of the extra handling staff and resources required. Will Infratil run at a loss to build up routes?

[Manston Airport]

:ugh:
As far as the "right routes" (pax) for MSE are concerned, it is difficult to believe there are any.



SO MAG,FAO,DUB,AMS,EDI,PMI,ALC and I think Nice was one they where all good routes for EUjet:ok: Can the Cargo ramp fit two 747 on it when MK and CV are in together?

All the best
James

[MDIS]

DD

Thanks I will have alook BUT dont forget Wiggins Planestation were involved in a few other "hair brained schemes" which also racked up costs and losses, so it may not all be attributable to MSE.

MDIS

[deedave]

No mate, the figure was given by a very brainy bod on ADVFN, and clearly related to MSE only. The figure also included public losses such as EU grants etc. I believe the period starts 1999, but may include some Wiggins stewardship prior to that. It's a while ago, and old gits like me don't have the best memories.......

[en2r]

Does anyone know how Manston-Dublin performed when EUJet operated the route? Would it be a viable route for Aer Arann? They have 10 new ATR 72 aircraft on order, with the first 2 being delivered this year, so there will probably be several new routes. Surely there would be demand considering that Dublin-London is the busiest route in Europe and the second busiest in the world

[Jes]

In 10.7 months from Sep 04 to July 05 they carried 43,287 pax, equivalent to 48,546 p.a.

Bear in mind that they destroyed the weekend market by running back from Dublin on Sunday early afternoon.

[Manston Airport]

It was one of the top routes with EUjet, I think Aer Arann would be perfect for the job they have the right size aircraft the ATR 42/72 plus Eujet got some ATR to do the DUB routes aswel as AMS and MAN:8 Does anyone know how well did todays meeting go with CargoLux?

Regrads
James

[Twitcher]

Eujet were looking at using the ATR42/72 themself on the routes that regularly half filled a Fokker. If they had been able to keep going you would indeed see those aircraft on some of the routes that James hinted at. They are an ideal size for some routes that Manston could serve. To make a go of it you need both a morning and evening flight daily.

[catflaps]

Haven't seen MK in the last week. Have they gone somewhere else?

http://www.ost.aero/engels/frameset_b2b.htm

[EGMH]

Last week there was an MK on MON, TUE, WED,& FRI. On MON and FRI it was a leased Air Atlanta Cargo machine.

MK currently in at this moment.

[MDIS]

Any news??
MDIS

[Manston Airport]

Haven't seen MK in the last week. Have they gone somewhere else?

Well I saw MK at MSE ( Ok well not me but my dad said he saw an MK tail 747 last week :cool: ) I hear its 100% for Cargolux:ok:

james

[honeysweetcombe]

Cargolux are due in on 17-4-07, 1 a week to try out the services 75T inbound.

Atlas Air have 1 arriving on the 18-4-07 and 1 on 19-4-07 both with A1 racing cars on board.

Air Atlanta 747-4F running some MK routes while they are having work carried out on their 747-2s.

Things are getting there slowly but surely:D

[Manston Airport]

I think I know now whats going on with the MK 747-200Fs I think they are having Engines changes too P&W :O Anyway great news that Cargolux are starting in April. Anyone now how well the Kent escape hoildays are going? (Bookings etc?)

All the best
James

[catflaps]

Just took a spin through Manston. It's as quiet as a grave. In fact, it looks rather like a grave. There are more dead aircraft on the airfield than live ones. Four dead ones, no live ones, by my reckoning. DAS DC10 without any engines is parked smack in the middle of the passenger apron. Where else could you do that over Easter? The area has had benefactors in the past. Most of them bequeathed land and buildings which have been of benefit to the local comunity. Infratil are spending millions and there's nothing to show for it. Mind you, the second-hand car dealer seems to be doing a good trade. Didn't someone say he was going to be shut down? A shame in my opinion. He's the only one creating any employment up there. As I left, a piece of tumbleweed rolled across the road in front of my Volvo. Was that Lee Van Cleef or was it SF?

[allanmack]

:confused: What was the point of that last post, catflaps?

I'm sure there are numerous airfields around the UK where it is quiet at times but behind the scenes plenty is happening to sustain or create employment for local people. I remember Prestwick being exceedingly quiet when BAA pulled out and everyone thought that it was going to be turned into a housing estate. However it was saved through hard work and the dedication of its backers and workers. It will always struggle in the face of competition from GLA & EDI (especially on the passenger front) but it has found its niche in cargo, training flights, and military and technical stop-overs. And it is profitable.

I'm sure Infratil are doing some good at MSE and although it will take time, I'm sure there is a future for various forms of aviation related industry at the airfield.:ok:

[Herne Bay]

I saw a airbus this morning egypt aircargo, and about 17.45 a MK 747 landed.
Aircraft should be in the air not parked on the ground, I think also a private jet also picked up a few passengers this afternoon. with more cargo airlines starting to use MSE things are looking up.

[Manston Airport]

That DC-10 belongs to Boeing and they have it stored at MSE , I am sure they will move it before the Kent escape flights start:ok: Catflaps what do you think of the news that Cargolux are starting at MSE?? And I bet another cargo operated starts flying in 2007.


James

[catflaps]

Hi allanmack,

You ask what was the point of my post. I could ask the same question of many posts which appear on this board. They speak of things all going to plan at Manston, of growing business and of good things to come (though, of course, the poster cannot be specific about what these good things might be). I am simply giving my observations of the airfield. For those who may not live in the region it is sometimes useful to have an eyewitness acount of what is going on. My observation is that the airfield is quiet..very quiet indeed. If you wade through all the bull that is posted on this board you will find that the airport is being used by two or three planes per day. This is quiet, even by Manston's standards. I fail to see any justification for the blind optimism that is so often expressed here.

[catflaps]

What do I think of the news that Cargolux are starting at Manston? I'm not aware that it's news. I'm aware that it is a rumour that has been posted on this bulletin board. Rumour and news are two different things. My view is influenced by this link:
advertising

Happy Easter anoraks,

[Manston Airport]

Well we find out in two weeks time wont we when a Cargolux 747 lands at MSE:ok:

James

[Twitcher]

I'm not sure how the building of a new hangar by Cargolux means they aren't to fly to Manston :confused:
I think there will be a few local spotters and no doubt a few from this forum at Manston over this weekend for the Wings and Wheels Weekend. They will also be there in a fortnight for the extra-busy period of cargo flights. Please feel free to brave the tumbleweed and come up to the airport and make yourself known to them so you can all mull over the goings on ;)

[Dont tell um pike]

I'm Glad the airport is perceived as Quiet , i was under the impression there was a 74 in the circuit for most of the day yesterday , so there can be no real noise problems if this goes unnoticed by the locals.

:ok:

BVGB

[Hangar_9]

Is this a single flight agreement by atlas air or is this only the beginning of several flights?

[Manston Airport]

Hi H9,
If you are on about atlas air flights they are only coming in with aload off A1 racing cars for the British Grand prix at Brands Hatch:ok:

James

[catflaps]

I thought the British Grand Prix was at Silverstone.

[Andy_S]

I thought the British Grand Prix was at Silverstone.

Correct. What James was referring to was not Formula 1, but the lesser known A1 Grand Prix series.

[Skipness One Echo]

Prestwick profitable? On income from Ryanair - no way. And there's not THAT much cargo....
Do you have a link to a source?

[fj1]

SOC - Infratil state that Prestwick makes an operating profit. 30% of income is from passenger flights. The net profit or loss is not disclosed.

weevhearditb4 - There is no new cargo facility for just one operator!

[honest man]

Prestwick is profitable maybe not astronomic but is, as for cargo its been on the up again recently not all the Evergreen/Atlas are refuel stops some are picking up

[Herne Bay]

I also think the airport is quite at times, it always has been.
If you go back to when the new owners took over, what has been achived.
MK came back, Egypt Air Cargo new, AIA seem to using it more, DAS have taken over the old JET hanger bringing in aircraft, cargolux due to start later. Nine extra ramp staff taken on.
Quite a bit of investment in the airport .
On the passenger side Newmarket, more flights this year, Kent escapes three routes.
Progress is slow, but it is a growing Airport.
I think the loss of the USA flights was a shame, but I dont think that route would have worked from anywhere in the UK.

[niknak]

"Progress is slow, but it's a growing airport".

Well, there's no doubt about the growing bit - as in debt - an informed source tells me that Manston is allegedly currently costing Infratil £3m per year.
If that is correct, I fail to see how they, or anyone, can continue to sustain such losses against such a pitiful revenue stream..

You can babble on about the wonders of Cargolux and other "twice a week" cargo flights which will never make any money for the owners, but unless they can establish a passenger of at least 1.5 million per year within the next two years, Manston Airport will be no more.

[catflaps]

On what is one of the busiest weekends of the year for most airports, Manston is silent, I keep hearing about Newmarket and Kent Escapes. Did they not bother doing any flights for Easter? When do they start? Are they planning to operate for just a couple of weeks in the Summer?

And I keep hearing about investment in the airfield. Personally, I would draw a distinction between investment and spending money on repairs and maintenance. The radar was stuffed. It had to be fixed. That's not investment. It's just running costs. Real money will have to be spent on sorting out the airfield's drainage and fuel tanks. Again. this is money down the drain (pardon the pun). These things don't increase your revenue stream (like a new terminal). They just allow you to keep going.

I think Infratil have some tough decisions to make. The airfield needs investment, millions of pounds. If they're as hard-headed as everyone says, I think they'll, want to see concrete evidence that they will get a return on their investment. The odd flight, now and then, doesn't really constitute hard evidence.

P.S. 1.5 million passengers in the next two years. Let's assume they shift 100,000 this year (I'm being generous). They'd have to announce some pretty massive deals to hit this target. Let's not forget, the existing terminal was never designed to cope with these sorts of numbers. They can only cope when there's a steady stream. In my humble opinion, it's doubtful you could get anywhere near this number without a new terminal. Oh look, more millions required.

[airhumberside]

On what is one of the busiest weekends of the year for most airports, Manston is silent, I keep hearing about Newmarket and Kent Escapes. Did they not bother doing any flights for Easter? When do they start? Are they planning to operate for just a couple of weeks in the Summer?
Newmarket are just operating some 'one-off' special departure flights. These are nice to see but nothing to get too excited about (unless your a photographer)

Kent Escapes have a full summer programme planed, but the summer charter season does not begin until May

[Herne Bay]

I came passed the airport this morning and lots going on, A passenger plane was loading at the terminal, a 747 in circuit, a cargo aircraft coming in and about a 12 small aircraft on a taxiway.
lots of cars about.

[Hangar_9]

I have learnt to ignore people like you CATFLAPS! :suspect:

NOTE : Sunday was the wings 'n' wheels day at manston with "LIVE" passenger carrying DC3 flights all day, performed by classicflight (PM me for link).
Overall it was a succesful day as i was there to witness it!

[weevhearditb4]

Hanger 9

Personnel attacks are unwarranted in this instance as Catflaps is right on a number of aspects...such as the drainage and fuel tanks which pose a particular risk to Thanets underground water supply. No investment of a major nature has taken place at MSE only general maintenance such as any responsible owner would instigate nothing more.

[deedave]

Manston is a lovely place for a bit of local aviation nostalgia.

It has a nice little museum, and occasional events like "Wings and Wheels" for nerds such as me.

But as far as entering the world of modern, competitive, commercial aviation goes - no chance I'm afraid.

It just loses money year on year.....

(BTW niknak - I have a hunch Infratil are losing rather more than £3m P.A. at MSE.
And catflaps - You are indeed generous when you estimate 100k pax this year - Capacity looks to be a mere 12 -15k return tickets for Newmarket and Kent Escapes (approx) - and events would suggest Kent Escapes have had problems selling all of theirs.)

[Herne Bay]

The coming of CARGOLUX could prove to the major turning point in the future of the airport. The catalyst to change.

[Dont tell um pike]

i really must get me an axe to grind , i'd have so much more to say.:\

DTUP

[tilewood]

The last time I visited Manston was in the 1960s when it was littered with Invicta DC4s. Some even carrying pax.

It would appear from reading this thread that little has changed, just
that the DC4s have gone and nothing has taken their place.

Shame, but you can't buck the market.

[deedave]

A very great shame indeed.

Many of us hoped MSE would be the centre of regeneration for this area, but this is clearly not happening.

There are folk who have direct MSE-related interests who, understandably, get excited by each imaginary or real new activity (Cargolux being the latest), but it never amounts to anything significant.

What really matters now is -

A) A realistic aviation strategy for the south-east.

B) Employment.

Like it or not, this means we must now look to Lydd.

If MSE cannot attract enough business to form a regional base, we must hope that LYX can do so, and provide new jobs for the committed and professional team at Manston (a lousy commute for some, but better than the dole queue).

The big issue, of course, is this-
MSE is currently failing without competition from Lydd.
If Lydd is to have a chance, is it fair to expect it to develop with the reputation of MSE casting it's long shadow?

I have no idea if this airport can succeed or not, but it could certainly do without the albatross of Manston around it's neck.

[Ad C]

But with the environmental issues (ie local wildlife) and local objections ( as goes with most major projects I suppose), It appears that Lydd has still got quite a way to go for it's planed expansion. Whereas Manston is already off the starting blocks with regard to road access and terminal buildings, therefore little or no expansion would be required for passenger handleing in the short to medium term.

[deedave]

Can't comment on opposition from locals, but I do know that Lydd passed its Environmental Impact Assessment with flying colours - it was in the paper.
.

[catflaps]

It's hard to describe how quiet Manston has been for the last few weeks. Anyone who lives in the area will tell you that there has been virtually nothing apart from the training flights by Oasis, which have been irritating the locals in droves. Looks like the airport has died (a bit like this bulletin board). How much longer will Infratil put up with the losses they must be making on this venture?

They had a public referendum on Lydd a couple of weeks ago. Around 30% of people voted and they voted against expansion. I don't know whether this will carry any weight with the planners who are imminently due to make a decision on the proposed runway extension and new terminal plans. As I understand it, they can only reject things on planning grounds, and the owners at Lydd have provided all of the information required e.g. the environmental impact assessment, the economic impact report, risk assessment. None of these studies has uncovered any substantive reason not to permit expansion. The protesters now seem to be relying on arguments about the danger of a plane crashing into Dungeness nuclear power station. However, the power station was shut down last month and so this argument seems a bit thin (although it will take many years to decommission the reactor).

Interestingly, the vote in Lydd itself was very close with about 55% of people voting for expansion and 45% against. I think the airport plan has a lot of support in the immediate vicinity because of the employment it will create. It was New Romney where they voted overwhelmingly against expansion, with 23% for expansion and 77% against.

However, the thing that stuck out to me was that only 10,000 people were eligible to vote in this referendum. This shows how sparsely populated it is around Lydd. Only 2204 people voted against the expansion. Presumably, this is why the local MP is in favour of the project. He probably figures that most of those votes wouldn't have gone to him anyway, and he'll pick up votes from the majority of his constituents living further away who support the expansion plans. In my humble opinion, the referendum will make no difference. Lydd is still likely to get the green light. They're just waiting until the local elections are out of the way.

[blazing_air]

so......apart from the first paragraph, which is a repeat of what catflaps seems to say every time, why hasnt this posting been moved to a lydd thread??

[Herne Bay]

Well next month see's pas flights back, new air cargo traffic, things are looking up.

[Throat]

Anyway,

I always thought the little training helicopter belonged to TG,
apprently not, actual belong to "Polar" Is it just a tade name for TG or seprate company ?

[Hangar_9]

they also received a new one the other day (polar)?

[deedave]

blazing_air asks a fair question - "why hasn't this posting been moved to a Lydd thread ?"

It is probably fair to suggest that Manston's future does not lie at Manston itself.

Information about local operational details is of passing interest to all, but does not address the fundamental problems that MSE faces due to its relative location in the south-east aviation framework.

To put it simply, events at LGW, LHR, SEN, STN and LYX are more relevant to Manston's future than spurious rumours about Esperia at MSE, Bmed at MSE etc. etc.

For example, if - god forbid - a major terrorist attack destroyed LHR, Manston would suddenly become a major player in the south-east.
Fortunately this is more or less impossible, but illustrates that events outside Thanet are more important to MSE than (for example) news of a possible weekly drop from Cargolux.

Indeed, there is an argument that the Manston thread should be abandoned in favour of a "south-east regional aviation" thread.

In the meantime, I would request that the mods be indulgent of discussion about complementary or competing airports on this thread, as they are directly relevant to Manston's future.

PS - I see Hangar 9's abusive posting has now been removed.

Good.

[Ad C]

It's quite possible there isn't enough room for two "regional" airports in the area, even if one handled all the frieght and the other all the passengers. what do the punters want at the end of the day. Do they want local & convinient or somthing a bit further away.

[deedave]

Indeed.

Shorthaul local pax may well devolve to SEN, LYX etc.

This phenomenon, coupled with increased capacity at all the London airports, plus environmental surcharges, will probably result in the major London venues making strenuous efforts to hold on to as much business as they can, including their freight business.

None of it good for poor old MSE.

[Throat]

"Shorthaul local pax may well devolve to SEN, LYX etc".

Only IF they can increase their runway length.

P.S Don't forget everone one will be flying to Margate soon, when Spain is to hot and has run out of water!!

[Herne Bay]

(Kent International handled 2,431 tonnes of freight in March
– a slight improvement on February but more than 70% up on the prior year.)
This just shows how the Airport is growing

[Andy_S]

Don't forget everone one will be flying to Margate soon, when Spain is to hot and has run out of water!!

What. And you think Margate will have water??

[ChrisGr31]

I cannot see why Lydd will work as a passenger/freight airport if Manston doesn't.

At least Manston is served by a dual carriageway. Lydd might be nearer Ashford and Folkestone but I suspect in practice it would be quicker for most of the rest of Kent and most of Sussex to get to Manston.

[Manston Airport]

And you think Margate will have water??
Yeah It have the Sea :ok: Why margate its not nice now like the old days with dreamland all gone etc ,I like Ramsgate and Broadstairs. Cargolux start tommorow cant wait to see them, im told its a brilliant week for aircraft this week. And Sky wings have got a new MD-82 from Fly Nordic maybe that be used for the kent escape flights.

James

[deedave]

Infratil European Airports traffic statistics worth a look (published today).

Prestwick gets 8 paragraphs.

Manston gets 4 lines.

Allowing for 28 days in Feb, MSE freight down by 8% in March in real terms. Feb was of course, lower than Jan as well.

PIK had an increase from Jan to Feb, and a 35% increase from Feb to March.

PIK still doing well for pax of course.

I guess MSE freight will rise again at some point, and folk will get excited for a bit....

It will yo-yo like this until closure.

[function]

"It will yo-yo like this until closure"

C'mon then deedave, if your'e so well informed....when is MSE going to close then?
Let us know so we can all troop down to and be first in line at the job centre.

So what if MSE only got 4 lines in the IAEL stats, all the hard work being done by the MSE staff for freight, Bizjet, private charters, Mil traffic and behind the scenes speaks a great deal. As has already been said on here, IAEL are in it for the long run, in the big scheme of things the airport is just getting going.

There are worse things happening in Thanet now (the awful roads, the planned 1000 new houses at Westwood etc) that warrant more attention, have you wielded your axe in that direction eh?
:ugh:

[Ad C]

Yes, the figures do seem to be a bit yo-yo like but, the frieght does seem to be on a general upward trend and if rumours are to be believed... well we'll find out if and when it happens. As for passengers, there doesn't seem to be any info on this years up take (as you might expect), but I would guess that experiences from last year would reflect on this years figures.

When Infratil took over at MSE they took over a buisiness that was in effect dead. No income at all (apart from TG Aviation) and things could only go up. The make or break in my mind is if they can create enough of a good reputation too keep the upward trend going before the money runs out.

[Herne Bay]

I live close to the flight path, and I see a lot more traffic over the last few months
more large jets and private jets, and mil aircraft of all types.
I have also noticed how the area round the Airport is kept tidy, grass is cut round the terminal.
This is always a good sign that the company cares about the place.
With the high speed trains from Ramsgate in a few years time, a rail link from the airport which was in the thanet plan.
The airport future is very bright.

[tommyc2005]

Newmarket have added a further flight to Verona in June, the first two have sold out. They have 6 flights in total so far in 2007 (Malta, Naples and 4x Verona).

Kent Escapes are selling well, with one flight sold out already.