Why are South Africans so Negative

[fluffyfan]

4HP, I dont know if you will bin this, (nope, it's fine - carry on :ok: 4HP) I suspect there is a good chance, however I am just putting it on the forum because there are so many negative statements about SA, and yes the people have a point but here is another view which may be interesting, what relevence to profesional pilots? Well where I work the favorite topic of conversation on the flight deck is how terrible SA is and where can we go.

Here is something interesting; it is a speech by Guy Lundy of Dimension Data Business Solutions:

Below is a speech I gave the other night. It went down so well with the audience that a number of people asked me for copies of it. So I thought I may as well share it with other people too so they can spread the message, especially those living overseas and those who care about spreading a positive message about South Africa.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Many years ago I was an exchange student in the USA, and every morning in my school, as in all schools across America, all classes came to a halt as the Pledge of Allegiance came over the loudspeaker system and every student stood to repeat these words.

I was quite amazed by this display of daily brainwashing in so-called "land of the free". But in hindsight it isn't actually that amazing, because we've all experienced how Americans are just so proud to be American. No matter how big their problems, and heaven knows they've got a lot of them, Americans will still spend hours telling you how fantastic their country is, and in fact, how it is better than, pretty much anywhere else in the world.

What a contrast then, when I later spent a few years in London and I ended up actively avoiding other South Africans. Why? Because frankly their negativity about our homeland irritated me so much! These people who will gladly put new South African flags on their cars and support a whole cottage industry importing biltong and NikNaks to munch on as they cheer on the Springboks at Twickenham, will spend hours telling anyone who will listen just how awful it is in South Africa, how lucky they are to be in London and how they are never going back because it's in such a mess. At the time I put it down to the fact that they were justifying why they were holed up in their dingy little flats under grey London skies while their friends and family enjoyed the sunshine on Camps Bay beach. However, when I came home, expecting to be greeted by the smiles of new South Africans everywhere, I was very disappointed to find that exactly the same attitude is pervasive right here. The number of people, who asked me why I came back here and why on earth I had brought my French wife with me, simply amazed me. I would have thought the answer was perfectly obvious.

I was later very disturbed, although not surprised, to hear that our president found it necessary to make a point to South African businessmen that they should stop running down their own country on overseas business trips. Can anyone tell me what it is that makes sense about running down your own home to foreign people that you would like to visit here and invest here?
It seems to me like inviting your boss to dinner at your house in the hope of getting a promotion but discouraging him from coming because you're a terrible cook and your dog bites. Yes, we have problems, but so does everybody else. Sure, the Rand is down the toilet, but if you look closely enough, you'll see that just about every other emerging market country has suffered from the same woes - and that includes Australia and New Zealand, which everyone seems in such a rush to get to. And aren't we lucky that we aren't living in Argentina with their currency crisis? Sure, our neighbour, Zimbabwe, is run by a mad, despotic fool, but man am I glad that I'm not a Pakistani. We have AIDS and we also have an army of people trying to find a cure for it * possibly more vigorously than anywhere else since we have the most to lose from it. We do have corruption, and the Americans have George W. Bush, whether they like it or not. We've got all sorts of problems, yes, but must we be so hard on ourselves? In many ways we are far better off in South Africa as a whole than we have been at any time in our history.
Our people are getting educated and housed at a world-beating rate, we have amongst the world's cheapest electricity, our inflation is the lowest it's been in my lifetime, we have an economic growth rate and there is development everywhere you look.

We have so much going for us; we have so many good people, such an interesting mix of cultures; we have so much beautiful countryside and natural resources that we can draw from - we really have such a bright future ahead of us. Let us concentrate on the positive things that surround us every day, the sunshine, the people, the beauty, and the progress. Constantly criticising our country can only do harm for you personally, your personal feeling of happiness and well-being and for the country that you know from the bottom of your heart that you love, otherwise you wouldn't be here.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I implore you, do not run down South Africa, neither at home nor overseas. Become ambassadors for your country. Welcome foreign guests and point out how far we have come and how far we're going to go how they need to watch out for us on the world stage. And if you're overseas on business or holiday (if you can afford it), tell people how much South Africa has going for it and invite them to come and see for themselves.
I have devised my own pledge of allegiance and I'd like to repeat it to you now : "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Republic of South Africa and to the interesting people, places and idiosyncrasies for which it stands, one nation under several religions, languages and cultures, yet indivisible, with freedom, basic needs and progress for all."

That is my pledge of allegiance to my home, our home. I pledge to help others see what is so good about it.

Our Beloved Country!!! South Africa, almost alone amongst emerging market economies, is set to escape virtually unscathed from the latest bout of investor panic sweeping the developing world's fragile economies (The Times, London, August 2001)

The SA banking sector has been consistently ranked in the top 10 in terms of competitiveness (MD, Switzerland). When Nelson Mandela was inaugurated President in 1994, SA was insolvent (liabilities exceeded assets).
Today the Government's deficit is negligible - one of only a handful of countries in this position. We've had single digit inflation since 1993 - following 20 years of double-digit inflation.

Mortgage rates are at their lowest level since 1988. South Africa is one of only 12 countries, where we can drink water from a tap. Our tap water was found to be the 3rd best quality in the entire world. Remember 15 years ago, in 1986: A state of emergency was declared. White men did two years compulsory military service. 64 184 black people were removed from "white areas" * 3989 people were detained without trial * Our economic growth rate was 0.7 percent - today it is 3% * 64 countries had sports boycotts against SA!!! South African wines win international awards every year and we have the longest wine route in the world. Nelson Mandela, an international icon of forgiveness, tolerance, and humanity is our favourite son. The Kruger Park has the most innovative management of a national park anywhere in the world - and is the world's most profitable game park. Eskom is the largest producer of coal-fired electricity in the world and South Africans pay the least for electricity in the world. South African Breweries is the 4th largest brewer in the world and produces over 50% of China's beer! Mercedes Benz C Class, BMW 3 Series and VW Golf/Jetta vehicles for all right-hand drive markets throughout the world are produced in South Africa. Didata grew from a local IT service provider into a huge, global networking company with branches in 30 countries. The Cape Peninsula has more species of plants here per hectare than any other area of the world. Magnificent highways, warm, friendly, vibrant rainbow people! The world's most progressive Constitution Kreepy Kraulies - a South African invention - Mrs Ball's chutney and biltong. The world's best looking population.

"For every guy who holds up a gun, there are 99 who hold out a hand of friendship" - Dennis Beckett, journalist. This is something I've never done, but after reading this, all I ask from you is to send this on, to your friends, family and others. Let us in this way deal with our negatives and let us try to be positive. By being positive we can continue to go far in life and we can all strive for a better and more positive life and country. Regards to you all, peace, and positive thinking - that's the way to go!

[B200Drvr]

and yet with all these good things we still have the HIGHEST murder rate in the world, the HIGHEST rape rate in the world, and a justice Dept. and President who say we dont have a crime problem.
No matter how much sugar you put on a piece of sh1t, it is still going to taste and smell like a piece of sh1t.
South Africa has as you point out, many good features, more than most countries, but if you live in fear and cannot enjoy them, whats the use????
Personally I think they should bring back National service, for all races, male and female!
Just MHO
And get your facts straight, SAB is the second largest brewer in the world:D :D

[PAXboy]

I can understand your irriation fluffy but one possible reason is that, the USA is still riding fairly 'high' having had a very successful 20th Century. Now, some of us think that they are heading 'down' and that in another ten years they will be feeling a bit lost and miserable - especially when China takes over as the major manufacturing superpower!

South Africa? They are in a period of enormous turmoil and change. More things are changing in ZA each year than the Americans get in a decade. They have had 9/11 but ZA has had 40 odd years of bombs, guns, fires and k@k. Now - we are not going to talk about who has been doing the k@k - simply that it was and IS happening. That takes it's toll.

Further, there is one section of the citizenry that is seeing their life and circumstances change very rapidly from when they started work/went to Uni or even since they were born. Again - we are not talking about why this is happening or the fact that rule has gone to the majority group because that is accepted by just about everyone. What we CAN say is that folks are worried about where it is all going and what will be left for their children and grandchildren. They feel that it is all beyond their control - and it is.

So ... naturally people will have a grumble about it. Yes it is hard but have you ever heard the Brits grumble? Yes, we have it pretty darn good here and we grumble all the time. The ZA folk have every reason to grumble.

Give it another 20 years and the ZA situation will probably have settled down (one way or the other) and the Americanos will be singing their oath of allegiance into the wind.

So just remember that môre is nog a dag and open another stumpy.

[B Sousa]

"For every guy who holds up a gun, there are 99 who hold out a hand of friendship"

Fluffy, its just rather tough to take those other 99 with you everytime you move from your "compound " to the store. They are good cover though.

[point8four]

Alot of people are by nature very negative, and most folks enjoy bad news and horror stories (check your local today, any good news in the headlines?).
It's indicative of our present society. There are many "glass half full" folks who are ready to spread a little sunshine but far more on the flip side who want to pull the wings off your pet fly.
I've made my decision and am determined not to b#@ch about it, I would loved to have stayed, but am not prepared to live and raise my family under constant threat.
I think if memory serves, there are 54 countries in Africa, I've seen most of 'em and I'm still looking for the ultimate success story.!
Good speech though, turn the lights off when you leave Guy -electricity still costs money.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Mr Lundy's own website trumpets the statement that 'he is available to present the particular theme of your conference in an inspirational and motivational manner.' The man is a professional speaker, a member of Toastmasters International and Mensa. The cynical amongst us might say that with these qualifications he is able to devote a great deal of intelligent thought to that which he says with a view to extracting the maximum reward from the people to whom he says it. Goebbels also had these abilities.

Having returned last week from jolly old Josies, one has to say that the lack of northern suburb liberals is becoming quite refreshingly noticeable. Hyde Park coffee tables resound to different tones of conversation, probably equally inane as in the past, as the Boksburg/Benoni brigade moves gradually northwards. Once the Gautrain is up and running, one suspects that even the hallowed streets of Garsfontein willl succumb to the chattering classes.

Still, mind you, the black Safrican has got it firmly into his head that all colonialism is a white man's creation. So, with never a backwards eye on Tanzania or even Seychelles, he, poor chap, is about to hop into bed bigtime with the Chinese, whose expansionist plans, as every African knows, are only there to benefit the local population. Therein lies hidden more than a little Fu Manchu danger but at least there are less Buger Kings and Kenticky Fried Chickens around than before.(sic).:eek:

[SpootNICK]

I must say I fully agree with Suitcaseman.

Until SA turns around and becomes a safer place to live and work.......i will not be calling it home. Having been a victim of crime three times in as many years. I have just had enough.

I'm not negative - I am proud to call myself south african. But until the waves of change have gone their course, i'll be just another "vanilla gorilla" voting wih his feet.


SN

[Balmy]

Fluffyfan I think you are on a hiding to nothing boet. I agree with an earlier post, the speech is great, but full of holes you could drive a train through. There are wonderful things about this country of ours, which makes it all the more of a tragedy that the negatives make it impossible to enjoy them.

An interesting fact, there has been a marked increase in recent months of Black professionals seeking migration to Ozz. Makes a man think???

If I listen around me I dont think there are any real statistics that truly reflect the crime situation. As I write this I personally know 4 people (or families) who have been the victims of violent crime since December. I recently had a brain flash.......when a lion attacks a herd of buck, there will be a chase, one is taken down and killed, the rest of the herd run off and continue grazing........We do exactly the same.....we hear of friend or acquantences who have been attacked and say how lucky they are to have not been killed (if they were not killed) and then we go back to grazing. Well I have another thought on this......they are not lucky to have not been hurt of killed. This nonsence should not occur in the first place, it is an abomination.......we have just become so immune to it that we cluck our tongues, say how lucky they are and go back to grazing.

My question to myself was (and to the rest of us is) what exactly is it that we are waiting for?......one of the family to be killed....a wife or daughter to be hijacked and/or raped....is that what will push us over the edge? I look around and I see the same telltale signs that I have seen all over Africa, starting to appear......the Employment Equity Bill 2014 is it?.......land claims and confiscations being more and more openly discussed......a growing complete disregard for the laws of the road by taxis.....a complete disregard for the laws of the land, and indeed any civilized norms apparently by a large section of our population.

We also have a bunch of chickens coming home to roost. Mandela is certainly on final approach and no matter what anyone says, politically he remains a calming influence......Mbeki appears to be nearing the end of his time, what happens then......we have a chief of police who drives a stolen car and appears to have links with organised crime......we have a health minister who thinks beetroot cures aids......and then there is Zuma????

Personally we have made the decision, we are out of here, we have three young sons and what future do 3 white boys have in the South Africa of 10 to 15 years time. Dont know yet exactly where we are going or exactly when we are going.......but we are going.....in the mean time we continue to live very carefully.

[nugpot]

I say nothing, but carry a big gun.....

[CJ750]

It is a very good speech but for those of us who have seen the wonders of africa :}H....K...G...K..:}. There are very good points in all the previous threads but i find myself thinking that our dear FLUFFYFAN must have blinkers on.

Where is he when he drives to work. Does he miss the taxis cutting in and also driving in the emergency lane, going through red robots. When last did anyone see a cop on the roads. This has led the lack of respect for law and order up the proverbial creek and is making life a living hell for the normal citizen and life for the criminal gets better.

Someone says we cannot stop speaking about the negative things. Do you just ignore a very good friend that got held up at gunpoint, do you ignore a neighbour from our "secure" suburb who got held up last night and fortunately the thugs could not decide who to kill so they just took the families 2 cars and filled them up over 2 hours and drove through the boom and disappeared.

It used to be that one knew someone who knew someone who was affected by crime, which by the way does not exist in this country (according to the Govt), but now it is getting worse and affecting us directly.

So do we wait as someone said before me to try and console our wives after they are raped or do we try and make our family safe by whatever means we deem fit. Yes different countries have different problems but are the governments as thick as the one we have here.

I have been trying for a long time to stay away from emigrating but i have to say the crime is now getting a level where one cannot ignore it unless you are the SA President, and have to find a safer place for my wife and kids. I would like to visit them at their houses when they grow up and not at the local cemetry when their anniversary comes up every year.

I FEEL THAT IF YOU THINK THAT THERE IS NOT A PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY THEN SOME ONE IS GOING TO MAKE A FEATHER DUSTER OUT OF YOU BUT DON'T SLAG THE PEOPLE WHO TRY AND MAKE IT SAFE FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES ELSEWHERE.

[Parrot]

It seems that speech was delivered in 2001. At the going rate he would probably have experienced two hijakings and three robberies by now.
I would be interested to hear the 2007 version !

Seems like I am one of those whinging South Africans ... but then I dont have a Euro passport on standby like Mr Lundy ...that is if he is still in SA.

[poorwanderingwun]

Speaking as someone who in the past forty years has visited over 60 countries and has worked and has close friends on four continents I believe South Africa to be one of the most beautiful and healthy countries one could wish to live in... except for the crime problem which way exceeds anything that I or my friends have experienced anywhere else in the world includiing the poorer areas of New York...
It's totally out of control, almost everyone I meet in SA has experienced either directly or through a close friend or relative very violent crime at least once... I know of no one personally anywhere outside of SA who has experienced or come close to violent crime. Of course it exists but the chances of one experiencing it personally or even through a close aquaintence is extremely remote.

Until this problem is openly admitted to and addressed by the people now running the country and measures introduced that show a major turnaround I would not invest one dollar in the country and have every sympathy with those looking for a more secure future for themselves and their families elsewhere....
I don't see it as being negative, just realistic... if these people were in a position to improve the situation yet did nothing but complain then accusations of negativity would be justified... unfortunately that is not the case.

[JG1]

Q. Do you feel secure at home in South Africa?

A. Well, if the security gates are locked and the alarm is on I feel more secure, but am still worried that if I am in the garden or arriving home I might be hijacked. Its a pain to keep two big dogs and a nuisance having to put up with the barking of the dogs all around me in my security complex but they provide more security. I pay the armed response quite a lot of money every month and they are pretty good. I keep a gun, and recently had to jump through several legal hoops to be allowed to keep it, but it brings me peace of mind under my pillow at night. But I must say that I am especially sensitive to strange noises downstairs or outside - my first thought is that it may be an intruder.

Q. How do you feel about the roads in South Africa?

A. I find myself getting very frustrated. If it is not minibus taxis overtaking on the gravel next to the road, it is minibus taxis pulling some other illegal/dangerous move. Where are the police? When you see them they are parked with 2 or 3 vehicles together, under a shady tree, having what looks like a little party, laughing and eating. I am constantly getting stuck behind big slow trucks which block the road, block all 3 lanes of the highway, do 20km/h up a small hill. At traffic lights I am constantly harrassed by hordes of blacks trying to sell me all sorts of rubbish - and I am scared some of them are hijackers. I go through red traffic lights at night time if theres no oncoming traffic - I am too scared of being robbed or hijacked to wait for the light to change. The state of the roads is getting worse - potholes are appearing in more and more roads, they aren't getting fixed. At most major intersections there is lots of gravel and debris in the road which never gets removed. I'd like to buy a Kombi but its virtually guaranteed to get stolen.

Q. What about the rest of the infrastructure?

A. We are getting more and more power cuts these days - on TV it said that we can expect more to come - apparently there needs to be a doubling of electricity supply in the next ten years and I can't see that happening. They aren't building any more power stations but the population is exploding, RDP houses are going up all over and the poor don't pay for electricity - I expect it will get more and more chaotic.
The Police are useless, crime is rampant - its completely normal to have armed robberies every day, rape statistics are the worst in the world, the murder rate is something like 22,000 per year. The prisons are full and they regularly have amnesties where they release dangerous criminals to offend again.
The Prosecution Service seems to mess up all the time and dangerous criminals get off on technicalities.
The Health Service - last time I went to a State Hospital I waited in a line for 4 hours amongst victims of what looked like a civil war with my feet in pools of blood and eventually was told to wait they couldnt help me with my injured wrist as I could afford private healthcare.
The Minister of Health is in denial about AIDS, she recently embarrassed herself and the whole of South Africa by exhibiting her 'cure for AIDS' - garden vegetables.
The Postal Service is so bad that I use PostNet, a private company. It costs more but if you post a parcel at the Post Office you might as well just go and throw it in the dustbin, it is just about guaranteed to get stolen or broken. There is no public transport apart from the dangerous minibus taxis.
Telkom has a monopoly and takes six months or more to respond to a service request. I have gone private - I use wireless internet and a cellphone.
Banks here charge a fortune for basic services, and when you arrive at the bank you queue forever to see some underexperienced/underqualified employee who is seldom able to help you without calling his/her supervisor.

Q. What about the government?
A. Corrupt and/or useless from top to bottom. Apart from the Finance Ministry which seems pretty jacked up thank goodness. But Ministries like Health, Safety and Security, Correctional Services, Home Affairs, Public Enterprises etc are a mess. They don't do their job. They don't even give excuses, they just brazenly don't do their job. I mean, with just the five ministries I mention above - one night you get the regular power cut, escaped criminals take the opportunity to break in and rob you and shoot you,
you fork out a fortune on private health care , decide to emigrate but you can't get a passport because they've run out of paper!! The Deputy President was up for rape and corruption, plenty MP's done for corruption, still serving, some MP's for more serious crimes like kidnapping & murder - still 'serving'. What can I do to change it? Nothing - my vote will always be drowned like an SOS being drowned in static - I might as well not bother.

Q. Good points about South Africa?
A. There's awesome countryside, fantastic scenery, African animals, great beaches, mountains, exceptional climate. The people are friendly, you can have a lot of fun.

Q. Whats the main problem then?
A. Well, I am tired of living in a fortress and paying money every month to private enterprises like security companies, postal companies, healthcare companies, communications companies when the government should take care of these things with my tax money. Insurance premiums are huge because of the security risk. I read every day in the paper of violent crimes occurring all around me. I read regularly of some or other government scandal or corruption going on. The lights are always going out. I get turned away from jobs because of affirmative action...but mostly I am tired of being harrassed. When I leave my security complex to drive to the shopping mall, I get harrassed at every place I stop be it a stop sign, a traffic light or the car park at my destination. I am seen as some sort of money donating machine, a target - thats it - I am tired of being a target.

Q. So why do you stay?
A. My wifes family lives here...she wont leave until her folks die, so until then I have to make sure they don't hit us, the targets.

[Balmy]

JG1

Wow.....I have to ask you another question........is it worth it.....waiting I mean?.....I hope for your sake you done end up regretting it?

[BOK2GO]

It's the old boiling the frog in the pot routine. Throw one into boiling water and it immediately tries to escape, but put one in cool water and slowly turn the heat up to boiling point and it doesn't realise it's being boiled alive.
Three weeks in Australia last year showed me how we are supposed to live. Not behind big walls, burgler bars, armed response, etc. That is not okay. That is not normal. I'm not going to be boiled alive with the heat slowly being turned up.

[gofor]

Before packing for OZ you might want to know where the most house break-inns occur per capita. Also 5FM just visited SYD and commented on just how they have never come across such negative people as the ex-Safricans there, to such an extent that they(5FM) never want to go back. Ja, working till 730pm each night and realising you are in Oz is when the maid and gardener sleep together in the double bed, and it is accepted. South Africans are well accepted in Oz because they are such suckers for punishment, work hard and always smile back for more.

Anyway ,yes its Oz folks, that has the Worlds most Burglaries (per capita) by country

[fluffyfan]

CJ750 don’t get me wrong, I think there is a big problem in this country, that speech was not written by me, but by Guy Lundy of Dimension Data, its interesting to me because its another point of view, there have been many guys leaving the company I work for who end up coming back, one famous letter from a guy who left to Qatar who said it was the worst decision he ever made. On the other hand there are guys who are quite happy having made the move and I hold no ill feeling towards them, it can’t be easy moving to another country and starting again.
One mate of mine was very successful in moving to Australia, made lots of money as an Electrical engineer, nice house in Brisbane, but after 2 years there he could not stand the so called "police state" and ended up moving back to SA, I personally don’t think I would have that problem, I would rather not be allowed to change my own oil or fix my washing machine without the neighbours calling the cops on me, than getting killed in my house.
I am in the same dilemma you have been/are in, do I stay or do I go? at the moment I have a very nice job earning a descent salary, do I give that up and go live in a place where it may be better or may not, I may end up flying long hours away from home as a permanent contract pilot while my wife and kids sit in a small house with crappy weather wondering why we made the move. I honestly don’t know yet, it’s a constant worry am I waiting for something to happen to me or my family before I make the decision.
I guess I am waiting to see, I think a lot of the negative stuff is blown out of proportion because that’s what sells papers, 99% of the people I know have not suffered any sort of violent crime, but yes have been victims of petty crime (maybe we are the lucky ones), but then my mate who lived in Brisbane had his house broken into and his plasma TV stolen as well. The one fact that I do know is that South Africans are under terrible stress and over time that will kill you, there is a large increase in the number of stress related deaths here.
So in response to your statement
I FEEL THAT IF YOU THINK THAT THERE IS NOT A PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY THEN SOME ONE IS GOING TO MAKE A FEATHER DUSTER OUT OF YOU
I don’t and never said there was no problem, and I hope no one makes a feather duster out of me.....they may try but I too carry a large gun and hopefully will win.
BUT DON'T SLAG THE PEOPLE WHO TRY AND MAKE IT SAFE FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES ELSEWHERE.
Never did, never will, may even join you when I have made up my mind if it’s not too late.

[gofor]

Just to substantiate, herewith some crime facts to checkout. And yes SA does feature high on many, like assaults , but OZ has 2/3rds the amount of SA? Car thefts , well also another interesting one as we know with the SA insurance at least every car stolen is reported!


http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita

[putt for dough]

Bottom line, if you are not happy, you should leave.
On the bright side, you can always come back if the grass
isn't greener on the other side. :hmm:

[Balmy]

gofor

5fm????.......now there is a really reliable source of wisdom and truth

And you believe the SA stats???? Dont know if you have been to Ozz (and I am not suggesting that's the only option by any means) but anyone who tells you that crime is a real issue in that country is smoking something very very illegal........if anything they are too law abiding to the point of almost being anal.......

I was there at the beginning of this year and as a confirmed Aussie hater (like all good South Africans) I found the people to be very friendly and very pleasant...... Ozz has its problems and a lot of people go there thinking its going to be heaven..... it's not, it's hard to live there and that's probably why many people end up coming back (those stats are quite high) but if you move anywhere and expect it to be like the place you left you are in for a hiding.....and on the flip side that country has a huge amount going for it.....go check it out.....and talk to the South Africans you know there who are staying.

All said and done whether it's Ozz, the US of A, Cyprus the UK......far as I am concerned anywhere is better than here, beautiful as this country might be.

And the worlds most burglaries..........Jaa Right!.......that's why they all have walls around their houses?????....I suppose

[gofor]

Actually I have been to OZ , several times in fact over the last year. And yes I have visited family there who constantly try to convince me to move and of its paradise.

Water restictions also come to mind. A lot of Safers there only have other Safers as mates and are not particularly liked by the natives. And then I was in Brisbane over the 'schoolies weekend' with 16 year old girls pushing trolley loads of alcohol back to there flats in Surfers. Sounds cool until you have girls of your own.

I agree no place is paradise just dont justify why you have moved or plan to move with your experience of a 3 week holiday.

Balmy, definately not.

[Arcla]

Gofor.... using your own stats website. SA has some staggering results -
Manslaughter - 1st
Murder -4th
Rape - 1st
And last but not least - Murder with firearms - you guessed it - 1st

I don't care if Oz or other place's have more crime like stealing , car theft etc.... its the violent crime thats gotta stop!

I love South Africa but this is just too much....HDG SELECT and outta there!!

[gofor]

ARCLA

I know what the stats are just thought I would enlighten some of you of them . We all know SA has problems and decisions need to be made...for now I am entitled to mine

[Balmy]

Guys guys guys.....you surely dont believe the SA stats do you.......these are the figures that our HONOURABLE president and even more HONOURABLE police chief use to say that crime is down........come on.......look around you.....like murder 4th????? that cant be right....who would number 1, 2 and 3 be......

I am not trying to justify anything, dont need to, I already made the decision and it is not based on how wonderful I think any other country is.....its based on the nonesence here and the fact that I am just no longer prepared to live like this any longer......dont know yet if it will be Ozz or some other country....still working it out.

You go back to grazing.....until the next time???

[B Sousa]

"We all know SA has problems and decisions need to be made."
An understatement, but the decisions HAVE been made. There is a new gang in town and there is f/all chance that crime will go down from here on out. It will take time but anything beautiful will eventually look like the streets of Nairobi, Harare, Pemba, and PRETORIA today.

I still visit, but eyes are wider open everytime.

[Balmy]

Jaaah swaar.....very sad

[BOK2GO]

What's the option, to stay here? I think not. I have family and friends living there who are very happy. I agree it's not everyone's cup of tea, but there comes a time when you just can't put up with the sh1t here anymore. I'd rather emmigrate than spend my life running down my country. It will always hold a special place in my heart but I want my children growing up safe in a country where they can live to their potential. I want something for my tax money, somewhere where it's not okay to break the law on a daily basis.

PS. There's a whole lot more to Oz than Sydney.

[james ozzie]

Am trying hard to keep out of the debate!
But a few minor points of order: The tale about SA being only one of 12 countries with safe tap water has been around for some years and it is clearly not true.
The robbery statistic quoted above for Australia is also an invention. There is housebreaking here but usually stoned teenagers grabbing a laptop to sell for $10 for their next shot. It is not nearly as common as you might think & is restricted to areas of urban decay.
But some interesting debate here

[fluffyfan]

james ozzie
You guys have a brilliant country and if I was to move anywhere I would like it to be Oz, if I could get in.
The problem I have is that a few of my friends have been and lived there and did not like it, for whatever reason, they came back.
The dilema I have is illustated above in this forum, is it all true, or is it just a bunch of whinging ex-South Africans trying to justify there move? If life was so perfect everywhere else why do these ex-South Africans sit on the net all day looking at the African forum and bitching about South Africa, why are they not looking at the Ozzie forum and getting on with there lives?
South Africa has huge problems, but if you look at the past its not surprising, maybe it will all work out one day, maybe not.

[PAXboy]

When you see ZA folk that live in the UK but only socialise with ZA folk - that is nothing to do with the Brits!!! Some folk prefer to stay with their own and go to Rugby 'n Wors days at their own clubs. If you join another country - then you have to join.

In that regard, it is no different to the old time Brits who went out to the colonies and then never had anything to do with the locals and were more British than the British. Some South Africans are very South African!

[kaiser bill]

I have been following this thread with much interest as I have family living in J'burg. I have visited South Africa and found it to be a most beautiful scenic country. Unfortunately we never met many citizens due to the fact we lived in a "compound" and never had the chance to say hello or stop and chat to passing strangers. Over here we don't have 10' high walls with razor wire and security gates, fences round our property, yes but only 2' 3' 5' mainly picket type fences,and they all have gates, so if you need to go to the house door you do so and the householder opens their door without fear or terror. My children walk to school and home again, we have children playing in the street and parks, I walk my dog at night without feeling fear, we have crime here, who doesn't ? the difference being, over here they get caught. If you do emigrate, remember we don't have servants so you do the chores etc and for God's sake don't whinge we had enough of the pommy whingers. If you can't stand the thought of starting anew, then stay home,I love your country and have S A stickers on my car,but I would never attempt to bring up children there I love our freedom and safety more. Finally, we all know what the main problem is in South Africa, unfortunately we are forbidden too mention it. By the way, I am a kiwi. this goes for Australia too.

[james ozzie]

I could not resist adding my 2 cents worth:
Here in Australia there are 50,000 ex SA/Zimmies in Brisbanes western suburbs. There are 110,000 in Perth. There are (my guess) about 50,000 in Sydney, much less in Melbourne and very few in Adelaide & Darwin. That is a lot of people. Yes, you will hear some complaints & some folk will decide it is not for them and go home BUT the vast majority have got on with their lives without complaint & many have been very successful, some less so.
[One guy I know left JHB in the 1980s and moved the family to Sydney. After 3 weeks of pounding the pavements and finding he was just another unemployed immigrant, he packed up & went back to his old (very good) job in JHB. His colleagues teased him about taking his furniture on holiday!]
There is quite a lot of self justification to be seen on this thread - please remember, emigrating to another country from SA is NOT a soft or easy option. It is a massive financial & emotional drain, putting big strains on relationships and families.

[Pontius' Pilot]

As a South African living and working abroad I will continue to vigourously promote South Africa, but will not burry my head in the sand trying to ignore the problems and malaise present there.

After the 'State of the Nation' address by the President, politicians have lambasted ex-patriate South Africans for their criticism of the crime levels in the country - I think Mr Lekota referred to it as 'whinging'. None of them including Mr Lekota, the President nor anyone else will deny me my right to give a balanced view of South Africa. It is after all where I will be returning in 13 years time, where I own all but one of my properties, where I still contribute to the tax system and also to where I repatriate tens of thousands of ZAR each year.

I don't care where South Africa is in the race to be 1st 2nd or where ever in the race as the country with the most of what ever crime. One rape, one murder, one armed robbery, one AIDS death, one politician accused of fraud, one white collar crime or one starving child for that matter, is one too many.

This is what the creed should be.

(edited for spelling)

[fluffyfan]

Crimson Tide
By Cees Bruggemans, Chief Economist FNB
12 February 2007

South African society and its economy today can be quickly sketched.
A population of some 46 million, half of which is still residing in rural areas, where there is social structure, well-defined rules of acceptable behaviour and community enforcement thereof.
Crime is very low in most of such parts of South Africa, except perhaps in one respect, namely the wide incidence of farm murders in certain provinces or regions thereof. In many instances, there is also very little income and wealth, and few opportunities for betterment.
The other half of South Africa's population is urbanized, living in urban communities of varying size. A large number of such urban households have one or more member with a formal job or earning some income.
This urban middle class, together with aspiring members in its midst, represents the city glitter. They enjoy a high living standard by traditional measures. An already high percentage is in fact very well-off.
This urban pool has for the past twenty years attracted waves of new migrants from the rural areas as urbanization steadily progressed.
A third dimension is the migrant influx from the continent through porous northern and eastern borders. These elements are mostly very poor with few skills.
Not all these newcomers to South Africa's inviting cities have been successful in finding gainful jobs and income. This has created and maintained a high level of urban unemployment.
Many new urbanites have lost their social community roots from the past. Indeed, many have become atomized by the much more individualistic, even brutal urban existence that has absorbed them. Their burning reality is a lack of income, amidst an urban existence of plenty, with easy pickings for the taking wherever one cares to look.
The role models guiding this expanding urban population are various.
Most want more income and wealth in order to be able to afford and participate in the glitter. Yet the growing economy and expanding job levels can absorb only so many at any given time. Many more remain disadvantaged for long, if not indefinitely.
Some of the newcomers resort to crime, which with experience tends to become a way of life. They in turn offer a shortcut to other luckless individuals. Gangs and syndicates proliferate. As crime pays, and as successful criminals rise socially in community standing, so they in turn become alternative role models, as compared to finding a regular job and progressing conventionally.
In the process two machines have been created, existing side by side. There is the virtuous machine, the fast-growing economy, with accelerating fixed investment, brisk household spending, creating jobs, and expanding our modern underpinning. But parallel to this there is also a vicious social machine of spreading crime, especially in Gauteng.
The circle of crime feeds off the presence of many luckless urbanites, some of whom have come to see crime as a shortcut, if not an easy option, to a better life, though the payoff isn't always high and the risks not always minimal.
The circle of crime has apparently speeded up as more people flowed from the rural poverty traps, and from across the borders, attracted by the city glitter, and finding the urban centers currently quite unable to fully absorb such an influx efficiently, or resist crime effectively.
This reality has made for a high level of crime, but also over time caused a changing composition therein, as crime tends to adapt to changing circumstances.
Crime is so violent in that it is mostly experienced as a war. The proliferation of hand weapons has made this easier. Their ownership is highly priced, as it can speed up any transaction. But their growing presence can also easily derail any encounters in an explosion of violence, especially when very young criminals are involved. Also, if one is caught, terrible retribution can follow. So rather take no prisoners. This in turn has upped the ante for victims.
This cycle of violence has now been accelerating for decades, especially in the larger urban areas. This is so despite a highly successful economy finally getting its act together, showing good growth, and registering high consumer confidence in recent years, society also harbouring at its core a deteriorating set of social behaviours, especially in certain geographic hotspots.
In essence, crime doesn't itself add to economic activity. It is purely a form of redistribution. But indirectly, to the extent that victims can respond because of income, wealth and access to insurance cover or new credit, it also is a major domestic stimulus to economic activity.
Liberated and redistributed goods are mostly replaced by new purchases. Damage is repaired. New safety measures are taken. Medical and funeral services are in high demand. The latter aspects do not constitute real added value to our living standards. They must be seen as gratuitous destruction and waste due to the wholesale breakdown of social values and the inability to regulate behaviour effectively, either through policing or community enforced.
We are therefore confronted with the strangest of all realities, namely a booming economy (prosperity) in the midst of a raging social civil war (crime), and both trends apparently still gaining in intensity.
The two phenomena, as you may have noticed, are not mutually exclusive.
The economy can boom, households and business managers can express themselves confidently, reflecting the generally strong economic performance, and asset markets such as the stock market can set new records daily.
Then in the evening, on returning home, a few South Africans (perhaps 50 000 or 0.1%?) find they have been taken to the cleaners (again), while 50 have been or are about to get murdered.
Over 365 days, this adds up, with many people increasingly being hit more than once a year. Clearly, this state of affairs is becoming more visible, at least to those not living a Balmoral existence, is heightening anxiety and is increasing anger levels, irrespective of ethnicity, gender, language or age, especially so in Gauteng.
Not every community apparently reacts quite the same way to this challenge. Urban awareness of crime, though, is generally high and rising, as is the inclination towards self-preservation (inviting the choice between fleeing and fighting), while the blame game has been intensifying. Also, there has been increasing evidence of communities taking matters into their own hands in various ways.
However strange it must sound, but this present condition isn't preventing South Africans from getting on with life, except for those who emigrate. Their place is taken by new incoming immigrants, or locals, given the surplus of unemployed labour. Given the skill profiles of those who leave (either migrating to the relative peace of rural or coastal areas, or abroad) compared to those taking their place, the economy's resource base of human capital is probably gradually eroding.
Yet such drawbacks, manifested in growth opportunities forgone, are hardly registered. What do register are the things that go wrong, the spreading inefficiencies, and the output that is nonetheless achieved.
It is a very confusing picture, as one would expect in the midst of a raging war.
As to prospects, the urban (and rural) population remains by and large willing to aim vigorously for a higher standard of living, the politicians and policymakers remain obliging to support such ambitions, and business enterprises of all kinds remain only too willing to make the effort, ultimately incorporating all inefficiencies as a cost of doing business, and passed on to the final customer.
This economic machine will probably only be stopped by external adversity rather than any domestic shock, whether political or to the social senses. One is reminded however that in real battle, in which troops get bloodied and experienced, there can be a steady deterioration in the fighting fitness, ultimately undermining the overall ability to continue fighting.
In other words, too much damage to vital organs can ultimately bring even a great fighting force down. It isn't as if economies fight purely on air.
With the pool of unemployed labour still very high (some 40% of the labour force), the process of urbanization far from complete (at least another ten million people migrating to the cities in the next two decades), immigration from the continent still steadily rising (potentially also in the millions), urban aspiration levels high and rising but far outstripping the means to satisfy them immediately, and crime as an attractive paying proposition probably still gaining in stature and intensity, the observed contradictions could still deepen considerably before this trend is finally broken.
It would be preferable if proactive measures aimed at making crime less successful could reduce its incidence before too much more damage is done to the vital social and economic organs of our population.
Alternatively, we must apparently resign ourselves to hoping for the best, namely that the outside world will remain accommodative for a long time to come so that our economy can continue to expand at maximum speed, even in its wounded and deteriorating condition, until the tide of battle decisively changes in our favour.
As the structure of society is transformed through ongoing economic development, with slow population growth, faster growing formal employment, rising middle class living standards, and slowly falling poverty and unemployment levels and the desperation this incites, we should ultimately succeed in outgrowing these birth pangs of our latest attempt at modernizing our society. Even with crime gangs and syndicates increasingly acquiring a permanent nature.
The real question of the moment is whether we will successfully accelerate this process, keeping the period of pain short, if intense, or whether we will travel for a generation or more a very long road of steady urban degradation before finally stabilizing society anew.
It isn't as if these things are impossible to manage. But they are certainly difficult to achieve. We have the past to blame for many of our trying imbalances. We have only ourselves to blame for letting things slip and not proactively addressing them into the future

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

It's not very well written is it?:ooh:

[Ignatius]

My little son's nursery school was hit by 4 armed PDI's last week. What a soft target, a nursery school.
We got this response from the school:
" ...
I have spoken to every parent on an individual basis, as to how they feel and the general consensus is that this could have happened anywhere and it is unfortunately the country we all live in.
I have requested help from the police with regards to the statistics in ********* and surrounding areas. The has been a substantial rise in crime over the last few months, in ********* alone there has been 3 murders, 2 in ****** Road and 1 in ***** Road, which is a boomed off area with security guards. 1 hijacking in ***** Street, just 3 weeks ago, once again, is a boomed off area with security guards.
Unfortunately in this country we are under attack no matter where we are, in our homes, when we drive our cars, even in shopping malls.
..."
So that's in my nice, "quiet", off the main roads, middle class suburb in North JHB.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

That sounds very much like the northern suburb where one also parks one's fur from time to time.
Three people killed in the last year. No, sorry, that's four people, if one counts the foetus inside the pregnant mother who was shot, in quite cold blood in her stomach, through the open car window in her driveway, with her small son in the back of the vehicle.

It is perhaps as irritating to find those who try and talk up a desperate situation as it is those who talk it down. Far too reminiscent of some of the rich liberals whose ill thought out activities led in no small part to the present state of affairs and who have now decamped to the food halls of Harrods or other such troughs.:ugh:

[putt for dough]

yes, well said!!!:D :D

[Ignatius]

No cheetah, not the "rich" northern suburbs - just a "normal" "average" middle-class suburb outside the concrete highway.

[Mukosha]

Too many of you keep refering to how tough and bad things are in the rest of Africa and how you should be grateful to be living in South Africa and not in "Africa" By which I assume you mean the places north of the limpopo.

Stop grouping the rest of the continent together like that. Its ignorant. We who live up here are competely happy! I have lived in Zambia and Tanzania and I love it. Its safe and people are great. You should be so lucky to have our lives.

Having said that, on a recent trip to the Cape my family and I walked out of the plane, hired a car and drove around some of the most amazing infrastructure I have seen anywhere in the world. Everything worked and everyone was helpful and friendly. Granted some things have changed and yes the crime is bad. But, I really do think you whine too much. Perhaps just spoilt for too long.

BUT.. Leave the rest of Africa out of it!

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Travels in Africa substantiate the truth in the words of Mukosha. But this is a thread relating to South Africa and thus to blacks and whites and coloureds as well. So, to a certain extent, what has happened historically in the rest of Africa is relevant. So far no King of Scotland has appeared in Pretoria to physically drive all but his own tribe before him; but Mr Zuma bids fair for the crown perhaps?
Actually, South Africans of all colours are just fed up with being robbed, burgled and raped. They do not terribly much like being shot either, especially after they have been robbed. Can't quite see the point in that really, rather like the bandits who, the other day, robbed a security van, then locked the driver and guards in the van and then set it on fire, roasting them to death.
It's the cruelty, you see, and it's really quite evil!:(

[Balmy]

I dont know, we have operated all over Africa and I have spent time in most countries, including Zambia, and while I hear tell there are improvements in that country, I think Mukosha talks nonsence about how wonderful it is.

Having said that, on a recent trip to the Cape my family and I walked out of the plane, hired a car and drove around some of the most amazing infrastructure I have seen anywhere in the world. Everything worked and everyone was helpful and friendly

The Cape is beautiful place but "everything worked"????? like the lights ???

But, I really do think you whine too much. Perhaps just spoilt for too long
.....Jaaa now that is definitely us......it's a bad habit we have..... when we have stuff we expect it to work and we expect to keep it....like our possessions and our lives.......but then we are spoiled you see!!!

We like to call it civilization......but I guess compared to a mud hut what we have would seem quite grand

[point8four]

Mukosha - the whole point is Africa is very much in it mate!

South Africa is seen as a fulcrum on which the entire continent rests. Yes... the best infra structure on the continent, yes.... an emerging and relatively strong economy, yes.... a trade supplier to most of Southern Africa including Tanzania. But you do not live under constant and very real threat- daily.

Zambia and Tanzania are two very good examples of fine African countries, but what about the other 50 odd dude?? Check out DRC, Chad, CAR, Eritrea, Somalia, Algeria, Nigeria, Cote D'Ivoir etc etc...?

A visit to the Cape is all very well, it's fleeting and the photo's are great. Live in Jhb for a month and we'll compare whinges then.

[kaiser bill]

This thread is absolutely spell-binding to an outsider. How can anyone really want to live, or should I say exist, in such a corrupt and cruelly violent society ? would some one please explain what are the benefits ?
On this side of the world we drive with windows down, we stop at red lights (you call them robots ) even late at night. I have a camper van and sometimes we park overnight beside a river or lake in complete safety, perhaps you should fight back, I.E. if some one walks towards your car while stationary, with obvious malice blow him away (it always seems to be a him). Get rid of the low lifes and corruption and I will be the first to emigrate to your fascinating country.

[B Sousa]

"Get rid of the low lifes and corruption and I will be the first to emigrate to your fascinating country."
Hey, have you got any iideas on how to clean up the states first.......ha ha

[kaiser bill]

Stuff the States, at least you guys can vote a change, South Africa can't, or won't.

[cavortingcheetah]

Note to editors:

There was a sticky about which had reference to a young girl who had gone walkabout reently. It seems to have been removed, hence this post which is not intended to upset those involved in the sticky. Please delete it if it might cause distress. cc

:hmm:

For those of you out there a little less familiar with the joys of living in Africa, no - aplogies, Safrica, let us speak for a moment of the crime of kidnapping.
This heartrending act of dastardly criminality is quite prevalent in Safrica and may be also in parts north of the great green and greasy, where its occurrence would probably go largely unreported. Usually it does not involve the children of whites or coloureds; the victims of this crime tending to be black children from the poorest areas or camps.
If the bodies of these young victims are ever found, they are usually discovered to be missing body parts, usually their sexual organs,(male and female) eyeballs and noses. These will have been removed either for use as ingredients in local medical concoctions or perhaps because these poor pieces of human anatomy form part the requirements for a ritual of some sort.
In Safrica, when a mother shudders at the thought of her children going missing or being kidnapped, the word 'ransom' is not the one that springs foremost to her foetid imagination!:yuk:

[Balloothebear]

Fluffy fan old sport, here is my up to the minute report on why we as Sefafricans have earned the right to moan:-
This morning at 06h15 when I opened my curtains, my dog of five years was lying in a pool of his own vomit and excrement, parilized by poison ,that was fed to him during the course of the evening.By whom you may ask? Well in our local area,the modus operandi is for the criminals to sus your house or whatever asset they are after,check who your security company is (yes,we have to pay for private security,as the police are incompetent,the government scores on taxes, and they dont have to deliver a service...double edged sword that) poision your watchdogs,and in a day or two break into your property and help themselves to whatever they desire. Security companies respond as best they can, however, my message here is that at some stage we become victims of criminal activities, due to the incompetence of the national government.
I pay my taxes,like most of us do, thereby entiltiling me to the right to have service delivery( ie protection from the criminal element) We do not get the privilage of protection, we have all but been disarmed by the government, so we (white,black coloured,asian , christian,hindu,jew,muslim....middle class) are all soft targets. If I sit up all night, hiding in the bushes of my garden , with a torch and a baseball bat waiting for the criminals to have their way with my assets, how productive am I going to be as an employee on the following day? If I catch and kill them for trespassing and attempted robbery,I become a criminal as well!!
So yes, we have a wonderful country, full of natural wonders, a rainbow nation of happy smilely faces:) .....all, at some stage or other, going to become a victim of a violent crime.
In sumary,we have the right to complain.:ugh:
P.S. Vet says dog might make it........will have to wait 24hrs.

[Balmy]

Hope he does!! and hope you dont get hit.........that posting to Iraq sounds beter and better by the minute?? :)

[PAXboy]

I can understand that Mukosha thinks that life in Africa is OK. I suggest that the reason is because Zambia and Tanzania have had their big turmoil and civil war but South Africa has not.

Those countries where the war has been fought, won and lost and now left behind - are going to be much nicer places. Consider Zambia and Tanzania 20 or 30 years ago? Were they better or worse to live in than now? (I do not know the answer, I am asking)

ZA escaped having a civil war, because Mandela and de Klerk excuted their unique 'three-legged' walk to freedom. They managed to pacify both sides and there was no Uhuru. I have written about this before in these forums and will not repeat in full - but my contention is that ...

South Africans, of all races, have nothing to unify them. If the war had been fought and both sides had spilt horrendous amounts of blood, then they would have had common ground to meet up and agree a peace. But there is no common ground and the common thieves can use the space for their own pleasure.

The Truth & Reconciliation Commission made a valiant effort but it was about crimes past - not present. I see no end until the govt admits that there is a problem and that they cannot do for all the obvious reasons. Accordingly, the only short term option is to get out and let your children return in 20 or 30 years time.

[FlingWingKing]

I briefly scanned a couple of posts and I come to only one conlusion.....

Fluffy's original post is proven right in most posts.....NEGATIVITY to the highest degree.

There are two choices here....leave or stop being negative and help make it work. If all this negative energy can be changed to something positive, things will change. Maybe not at the rate you want it to, but it will change.

Proudly South African

[prospector]

Would imagine this bloke wishes he had of left instead of risking his health and life for what???


http://www.stuff.co.nz/3979395a12.html

[Mukosha]

Kaiser made asked an extremely good question. "Why would anyone want to live there" No one has answered that and seems everyone has avoided the question. Many of you have real reasons why you cannont leave South Africa, but there are an equal number of you who can pack up and get out of there. Do it if you are so unhappy.

I have family all over SA and have personally lived in Jozi for two years. Its not right how dangerous things are. However, your lights do work (99% of the time), your phones get through to the right numbers, you can buy anything you want from the shops, your roads are great, your kids go to excellent schools, etc etc. The list goes on forever.

Yes not all of Africa is good and it has got its problems. But where as you all see a decline in any of the extremely good facilities you have as a disaster; we are overjoyed when we can drive on a road with no pot holes and when the police have a vehicle that actually runs. I suppose we are looking at our lives in Africa from a different perspective.

You know, its only a days drive from Jozi to Zim! Give that a go.

[Balmy]

Paxboy

if this is not war then what is????

FlingWingKing

Proudly South African........now please tell us what exactly would there be to be proud of????.......

Its really not just as simple as leave or be still.....some people cant just leave and quite frankly while i am happy with my decision that we are going to leave it still agravates the poep out of me that it should be necessary.

As for being NEGATIVE......I have not seen any in these posts.....realistic yes but negative no.......In fact I am POSITIVE this is no place to live.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Some eighteen years go your correspondent left South Africa for points north. This was primarily in order to give the children a long term opportunity which did not seem to exist, even in those days, in the country. One hastens to admit that personal circumstances made this move comparatively easy and that a job offer somewhere in the frozen wastelands of the north looked far more appealing than the reality was to prove.
Since then, after many visits back home, a retirement move back to the sun has been frequently discussed. There are four main reasons why a decision to do this has not been taken.
The South African taxation system has changed markedly in the last few years. Capital gains tax and taxation on non South African sited investments have meant that long term inheritance prospects for children are prejudiced.
The health service is somewhat in decline. The quality of surgeons and doctors may still be excellent but the hospital care itself deteriorates, even in private sectors of hospitalization, let alone in the public sectors.
The crime factor is a very serious problem which, as senility approaches becomes rather more frightening than simply inconvenient.
One has to take note of the fact that such friends as one has down there in the legal, medical and other professional fields exhort one not to return.
The answer to the question as to why one would want to live in South Africa is obvious enough. The country is in itself a land almost sans pareil in the world today. It is a truly wonderful land! But its government seems hell bent on killing the cow and poisoning the honey bees.
So, to the question as asked, 'why would anyone want to live there?' must be added another, which is 'why would anyone want to move back there?'
The answer to this may lie somewhere in the statement that life for the white man and his children in South Africa appears to become increasingly more dangerous, uncertain and prejudiced. Active racism is alive and well in South Africa. It has just moved bias across the colour bar.
Perhaps the white African looks around him and sees that while life may be better for the black African, his future faces slow but sure deterioration? Certainly if he looks north of the border river he sees nothing but the the disaster that has been created by expropriation of lands once productive, now barren. When he looks further north he sees countries wracked by war and strife which once, albeit under a colonial rule, were prosperous and stable. When he looks south again, he sees the seemingly benign platform of willing seller/willing buyer abrogated by the government in its efforts to appease the more left wing elements of the voting public. He may remark, with some justification perhaps, that the course of African history is about to repeat itself in South Africa. He is out numbered, out voted and out gunned and if he bothers to read the black press, he will find all too frequent mention of the hated colonial rule which does nothing to encourage him in the belief that his fellow black African has any other long term goal than the removal of the white man from the continent.
So the white South African, a minority in his own country, over taxed by the government in a manner disproportionate to his numbers, looks north, east and west for new territories where, in keeping with the traditions of human migration; he may safely raise his children and provide them with the opportunities which they will need for their future. If he can afford to move on he may either do so or he may ensure, by a suitable disposition of his assets, that he is able to do so should he wish to do so in the future, should life become too uncomfortable for him and his family.
The South African government has apparently recently afforded some form of special refugee status to all emmigrants from Zimbabwe fleeing the tyranny in that country. It may be overly sceptical to regard such a decision as anything other than humanitarian but it does not take too much of a stretch of the imagination to conjure up the same tyranny south of the Limpopo as is perceived to exist in so many of the lands to the north.:hmm:

[PAXboy]

Cheetah That is a very well set out case for those that have left and those that may yet do so. Those of my family and friends that can leave have done/are doing so. Some have chosen to stay and I am anxious for them every day. I shall be visiting in April for the first time in four years and am anxious for my own safety.

Balmyif this is not war then what is????It surely feels like one but I don't think that it is a war because the criminals are attacking everyone and only a few are responding. If the populace at large were going on vigilante raids and so forth - then it would be a war.

A civil war is when two main groupings within a country fight each other for control fo the country but the criminals doing the attacking are not a group - they all are doing their own thing and only for themelves. Of course, when you put it altogether - then it looks like a war. Sorry if this is too much of a dictionary definition but one has to start with what the words mean.

It is possible that it will become an outright war or that there may be civil unrest against the govt or actual civil war of the kind that Africa has seen so much of in the past 50 years. It is my contention that this would be a good thing - for the longer term. Because, until this is opened out and dealt with - it will never be over. The best way to end a war is to start it.

This is all part of my view that the peaceful transition that Mandela achieved may not have been the best for the country - in the longer term. However, in almost any country in the world, to say that Mandela did not do the right thing is enough to get you strung up. I have endless admiration for the man and what he did but it will be another 40 years before we know if it was the right thing.

[fluffyfan]

PAXboy

It surely feels like one but I don't think that it is a war

Oh its a war all right, 52000 US soldiers died in the Vietnam war, 50 people a day are murded in SA thats 18250 per year, just check out the letter from the Chief Economist of FNB in my previous post he explains it very well, its a war but not in the conventional sense.

Balloothebear, sorry about your dog hope he gets better, and just to set the record straight, I am not a head in the sand optimist, I have posted 2 letters, one on the negativity of South Africans and one on the Crime, I am playing both sides, I dont want to leave but trying to decide if I should, unfortunatley most posts from guys who have left are horribly negative and I have to say that I take those with a pinch of salt because they need to believe they have made a wise choice, and maybe they have, maybe not.

[PAXboy]

fluffy Thanks for the numbers, I did not know that they were that bad. Yes, you have the right to call it a war.


As to those that left ZA still 'convincing' themselves that it was the right thing to do ... I can only go on the experience of my brother and his family.

My family emigrated from the UK in 1966 when we were children. I came back to the UK and have made all of my adult life here. My brother settled, married and moved to Cape Town, later they downsized and moved to Knysna.

As things got worse in the late 90s, they had thought that they would wait until their children had finished school, rather than disrupt them - both were in early teens. Yet they thought that it was getting so bad (in Knysna??!!) that they returned to the UK 2.5 years ago.

My brother had to take a full demotion in work, having never worked here and was then nearly 50 years old. He and his wife have really grafted and the children have worked hard at school and to integrate. What do they think? They are very happy with their move. Life is tough at times, money is tight and they don't like the weather but they say that they did the right thing for the whole family.

I believe him. If they were forcing themselves to say that it was all good, then I would know. But they are glad they made the move and my brother is not an emotional guy but one who makes slow, careful decisions.

Our sister still lives in ZA and I try not think of the risks they face every week for no one is safe, due to the sheer randomness of the attacks. No one can shield themselves at all times. That is why I am 'negative' about ZA.

[Captain Pheremone]

Me negative about SA - Never I love the place!!!!!!

Me negative about how much money it will cost me to defend myself in court after I shoot the the zot that pointed a gun at my wife and daughter yesterday then burst out laughing before he ran away - yeah sure.!!!

5:1 quota - bring it on.:=

[allovertheplace]

Now, the question we have to ask ourselves. Are we going to sit back and watch our beautifull country take the same route as Zimbabwe..(or the same route as the rest of africa for that matter)? It is a pity that we are outnumbered and outgunned and have to watch more and more of the white safricans leave.

We have to act now?But how?Like we all seen, the gov in SA has such a big grip on the white safricans and we are called racists for playing songs which has nothing to do with clashes between white and black in SA. It is about a hero, camaraderie and standing up for our country a decade ago. The country that our grandfather batteled so hard for.

I am not a racist, just a realist. I dont judge anybody by the colour of their skin, I am just saying that we should pull out the ones at the top that allow this s*^& to happen!!!:= := :=

[james ozzie]

In the postings on this subject, much of the discussion centres around present day short term issues (crime, AA in SA and climate/jobs/houses/schools in the new country).
In fact, emigration is a long range decision and is driven by perceptions of the future. The biggest drivers should be long term financial security, and health care in your later years - those are the two major aspects which will make or break your future happiness. Once you are 65 years old, with diabetes and cancer in remission, no country will take you as an immigrant. Also, it is no good accumulating a comfortable retirement nest egg only to find it destroyed by inflation, Zim style. Zim is full of paupers who retired very comfortably a few years back. Anyone in SA who is a member of a DC pension fund will have seen their retirement capital triple in the last 4 years - it seems impossible to imagine the party ever ending... So, whatever ones views of SA are now are much less important than your own personal 20 year look ahead vision.
What will the crime picture be 20 years from now? How will the health system function 20 years from now? How much will this big pot of pension money buy in 20 years time? If it all goes pear shaped in 20 years time, what options will I have?
Many people "justify" (do you have to justify it?) emmigration saying it is for their childrens sake - though well meaning, the reality is ones children are young, adapatable & skilled and will usually make a life for themselves easily in any place. Really, one needs to consider ones own later years.
As my mate from Kenya observed: "The white mans epitaph - Things will be different in this country"

[allovertheplace]

[allovertheplace - just look at the rest of Africa. There's your answer.]

That is exactly our problem!!! We sit around too much and watch the rest of africa instead of doing something about our own situation! Its just that everybody is to scared (including me) to make the first move on the chessboard!!! Think back 12 years.....

It can not carry on like this. When will we stop to just sit and watch and do something.

Just a thought.....:ok:

[prospector]

These people will not make it any easier for folks to immigrate here from South Africa. We all know they are only a very very small number, but they are the ones that hit the headlines and help people form opinions.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3981547a11.html

[prospector]

Sorry, did not express myself clearly enough, Your point is what I was trying to make Flame Lily FX

[allovertheplace]

Maybe I will take the same route than you someday flame lilly, to move abroad and look for greener pastures somewhere where I know my wife and children would be safe. I think at the moment I just keep on hoping that thing will change but I guess that I'm very optimistic.

Would luv to see whats gonna happen with the world cup though....
:E

[ERASER]

Crime Information

MURDER 18,793
RAPE 55,114
ATTEMPTED MURDER 24,516
ASSAULT WITH INTEND 249,369
COMMON ASSAULT 267,857
AGGRAVATED ROBBERY 126,789
COMMON ROBBERY 90,825
INDECENT ASSAULT 10,123
KIDNAPPING 2,618
ABDUCTION 3,880
CARJACKING 12,434
TRUCK HIJACKING 930
RESIDENTIAL BURGLARY 276,164
BUSINESS BURGLARY 56,048
MOTOR VEHICLE THEFT 83,857
DRUG RELATED CRIME 84,001

[V1... Ooops]

South Africans, of all races, have nothing to unify them.
As an outsider (a Canadian) looking in on things, I think that the above comment might be perhaps the most thoughtful one in the whole discussion.

I'm not super-familiar with ZA - have visited there a few times, that's all - but as I understand it, the country has 12 different official languages, an unknown number of 'tribes', and (historically) three racial groups - Whites, Coloureds, and Negros, all of whom probably feel more strongly associated with their tribe (whether that be Zulu or Caucasian) or their racial group than with the country itself.

ZA worked in the past (up to the late 1980s) because one particular group dominated the rest and set out the rules. Whether it can continue to work in the future as an 'artificial construct' is unknown. Switzerland has 4 different language groups and 2 main religious groups (the internal political boundaries are drawn along religious and linguistic lines), and it has taken the Swiss 700 years to get everything working smoothly. Here in Canada, we have 2 different linguistic groups and have historically only had two different ethnic groups, yet our country has encountered considerable difficulty sticking together in the last 40 years.

Good luck with it.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:


There might perhaps be certain cynics who post on Pprune from time to time who could come to the conclusion that the woes of Canada are due more to predations of the French influence than the more calming and mature legacy of the Anglo-Saxon.
Mind you, of course, the future of Canada suffered an enormous reversal when the Russians sold Alaska to The United States in 1867, thereby at one stroke depriving future Canadian governments of their very own home groan (sic) gulag into which to unload the rowdier and less desirable elements of what passes for society in that country?;)

[birdlady]

My 2c, ;)
I spent most of my life living in africa..............5 years in zim and 8 in SA. Last June I left. I was convinced I was going to stay (no work permit but I was determined to make a plan) but shortly before my parents were to leave (three weeks to be precise) I had an attempted hijacking. Broad daylight and in rush hour traffic. **** it I said to myself, I can not deal with this kuk anymore so I upped and left. This was my third hijacking. I know several
people who were murdered, several girlfriends who were rapped and I myself have witnessed someone being shot in the head. I've also witnessed two stabbings. So please dont come and tell me that it is not a war. Enough negativity. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I now live in Serbia. The gulag. I think that says it all really. :sad: :sad: It really is like stepping back 40 years in time. Technically, communism does not exist here anymore but this could not be furthur from the truth. Roads......if you could even call them that. Telephone company has a four year waiting list for a land line. The schools and universities......completely pathetic. Grocery shopping.........good luck. 7/10 the butchers have no meat. Bread.....go early in the morning and you might find some.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: However, contrary to popular belief, the serbians are wonderfull people and its increadibly safe here. I can walk down the street, by myself at ANY time of the day/night with no worries.:ok: The mafia is increadibly big here. They are the only wealthy ones and own most of the restaurants/bars/caffes but they generally leave the average jo so alone. The average salary here is 300 - 400 euros a month (this includes doctors, lawyers, engineers) :eek: :eek:

To summarise. I miss SA terribly. Would I move back if I got the opportunity..........maybe..... it would all depend on the opportunity and where I would be based (ct...YES definately :ok: JHB pigs would fly first :\ ) Its a wonderfull country (no place like it and it will always be my home) but has a lot of problems....safety being the big one in my case.

[Whenwe]

I came back from Rhodesia in 1980. I truly believed we had a chance here.
I have a son and his family in Australia. What he still remembers is the fact that as a ten year old he had to be taught how to handle a 9mm pistol to help mummy when daddy is flying.
My daughter and her family is thinking.......the usual stuff like crime and education etc.
We now qualify for the parent visa and my forms are going in!

I have tried to retire to my farm but that is another long sad story.

Like mentioned in another post: I too cry for my beloved countries.

[bianchi]

Goodluck with your application"Whenwe"!!
I would have done the same if I could!
Nothing about being negative, but just been realistic!

You go man - GOODLUCK !

[PAXboy]

Eraser You listed much crime information statistics - but no indication of across what time period? Is that 2004/5/6 or the last 12 calendars months?

V1...Oooops Thanks for the compliment. Your mention of the difficulties that Switzerland has had is pertinent.

I understand that Mandela's absolute intention was to run ZA in the same boundaries as it had been run by the white man - and that is perfectly understandable. At the time, I thought it wrong. Now I am convinced that it was wrong.

A South Africa with a federation or confederation of states would have dealt with many of the problems relating to the many languages and tribes and wannabee kings and presidents. Sure, it would have presented other problems but the whole world is currently going through an era of splitting and breaking apart. Even the Socttish Nationalists are having another go at separating from the United Kingdom. So I think that the break up of the country into more than just the existing provinces is a fair liklihood and it may well come about as a result of civil war.

That is ... if central govt cannot and will not control the crime or do anything to try and quash it by force and the rule of law - then a civil war against the govt is likly. That may then lead to the break up of the country into a federation. I think that it would be for the best. Not necessarily the best possible move but one that could bring stability by engaging people in their own govt, rather than the beauracrts in Pretoria and the gravy train to Cape Town that is a replica of the white gravy train.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
Reversion to previous topics.....
Actually one is rather a fan of benign colonialism. It was a system that in general, by the introduction of a more sophisticated society, kept one part of the local population from slaughtering another, thereby encouraging life expectancy all round. Its sins, at worst, were less brutal than those that were the norm of the chief, rajah or sheikh whose power it held in check and it left a tangible inheritance in concrete and steel which future generations have found to be of some use.:D
Whatever one's views of the subject; there is no possibility of South Africa being able to reinstate the death penalty, let alone extend its application. The country would find itself expelled from The Commonwealth in fairly short order and what would happen to 2010?
If one were to speak as a European, one would have to say that for whatever reason, crime in South Africa is perceived as being generated by the black sector of the population and that much of it is justified only by criminality or envy. There are no more freedom fighters in the land of Prester John.
Now the white man probably knows less about what goes on in the black man's brain than the other way around - any more than a Spaniard knows what makes a Latvian tick. But the problem is perceived by many as being a black problem and it therefore should behove a black government to be seen to be doing something about it. The South African administration is seen as failing dismally in this regard, certainly by whites and one suspects, almost certainly by all other segments of the population.
Actions which Pretoria could take to alleviate some of the public relations disaster it has on its hands would include the construction of new prisons, not necessarily nice ones, you understand, the lengthening of jail sentences so that a lifer was really in for all of it and draconian measures to restrict immigration and impede the movement of criminals. To this end, the reinstitution of a form of identity card might be useful. In reality, bring back the pass laws!:E
History has no absolutes in right or wrong. Nelson Mandela's role in the panoply of the past was, by his presence, to prevent the bloodbath predicted by so many. In this he succeeded even as de Klerk stood aside and observed his transition from the sideline. In years to come, however, Mandela will be judged on his active legacy for South Africa, on his constructive achievements rather than his preventative ones. The quality of what Mandela achieved in a manner constructively beneficial to the overall society of the country may be called into question in the future.
Just like anything else in life, reasons for emigration change as do the seasons. The forces driving such decisions when one is forty with young children will have changed considerably by the time one hits the sixty year mark. The over riding factor has to be the projection as to where one will feel safe and secure for oneself and one's loved ones either now or in the future. Where, perhaps, one could conceivably be happy? Unless one has a great deal of money and suitable bolt holes the answer to the question posed, for the white man at least, might well be - out of Africa.
It might be of interest were one able to compile a chart showing how many of the South African black population had either moved overseas or would do so, could they. One has to suspect that numbers would be considerable. Does the black man look to his own educational advancement in South Africa as a means to improve the future for his country or is his goal nothing more than a green card or its European equivalent? Such a statistic would perhaps reveal more about true negativity in South Africa than the relatively short term fears of the white man. The black people hold the keys to the future of South Africa. One does wonder, sometimes with a degree of perplexity, what doors of opportunity await the locksman.:confused:

[Balmy]

Been out of this for a couple of days........thanks to the wonderfully (in)efficient services of Telkoms ADSL dept.

2 thoughts.

1. While the total net income of blacks has increased hugely....The net real income of the vast majority of blacks in this country (the lower income earners) has decreased since black majority rule.

2. There has been a substantial increase over the last 6 months of applications for migration to OZZ by Black professional S Africans?

Makes a man think??

As to the long term future in this country, have a look around the continent with all its vast wealth of natural resources and count the success stories......why would we expect it to be any different here????

easier to believe in the tooth fairy.

[Deutscher]

Why leave South Africa? Why not!?

[Balmy]

Could make a man dance and sing........

"bring me my machinegun I will drill the men from SARS" .....

Naaah doesnt have a ring to it

[BOK2GO]

The news last night reported that Zuma is making a go for the ANC Presidency. A man so reckless with his own life will be reckless with his own country.
I don't profess to know what goes on in the corridors of power but I'll be very (pleasantly) suprised if he is not our next President.
One cannot have a healthy democracy when the ruling party has more than a two thirds majority.
Yet another reason to leave.

[Balmy]

Careful now.....you could get sister Winnie and her football team??? :=

[I.R.PIRATE]

..or Become The Next Stompie

[unstable load]

Why leave South Africa? Why not!?

Well put, Deutscher.

If anyone is wondering what the future holds, just look to the North from the border and given time, it will all be the same.

It will break my heart to leave, but the prognosis in my opinion is such that I believe to stay will unfairly affect my kids when it comes to looking for a job. Not to mention how it is hitting me in the pocket right now to put them in a decent school with an internationally accepted curriculum.

Armour on, helmet strap tight, awaiting the storm........

[SpootNICK]

Well said Champagne Lover,

Here's another recommendation.

LETS DIG A MOAT AROUND OUR BORDERS WITH THE CONTINENT,
THEN FILL THE MOAT WITH MAN-EATING CROCODILES. IF ANY ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE CAUGHT IN THE COUNTRY, WE USE A MASSIVE TREBUCHET TO CATAPUILT THEM BACK TO WHERE THEY CAME FROM. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Trebuchet.jpg/300px-Trebuchet.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Trebuchet.jpg)




THIS WILL SORT OUR ABOUT HALF OF THE CRIME PROBLEMS IN SOUTH AFRICA - AS MUCH OF THE CRIME IS COMMITED BY W*NKERS FROM THE NORTH.:mad:

Do you agree?

SN

[Fat Reggie]

Not a darn thing wrong with South Africans. Of course my country is throwing out a fine South African family that has lived here fifteen years because for some damn reason they can't get their visa renewed. Well educated with degrees in medicine and other sciences, they have carried their own weight since arrival. But no, we need uneducated, poor, ignoramous mexicans that we just simply grant amnesty too. Work for less than the legal wage...come right in and make yourself at home. We just cannot do enough for cheap labor!

[BOK2GO]

I stand more chance of being taken out by the Zuma cavalcade as it speeds down the highway at 160.

[4HolerPoler]

This thread is ready to set heading for Jetblast. Get it back on track or visit it on JB.

4HP

[cavortingcheetah]

:D
One rather wondered where jolly old 4HolerPoler had thundered off to in the last day or so. The thread has run a little rampant, if not amok! Of course he is absolutely correct. What is missing from here at the moment is a thoroughly good dose of the old negativity. So here is a little with which to be playing around with should the fancy take one.
If one glances through history one finds an ineluctable truth. All governments purporting to commence their political existence as democracies inevitably become plutocratic, then oligarchic and finally dictatorial. This is exactly the pattern of government which unfolded in Zimbabwe and is now set fair in South Africa to mirror image that unmitigated disaster. A disaster, incidentally, for which the British bear more than a little responsibility both in previous administrations and in the present one.
There may be little wrong in the concept of dictatorship per se. In the three major such systems which arose in the twentieth century, German, Italian and Spanish, the final form of government in each case, arose as a consequence of the logical progression of the three previously mentioned stages. Each of these dictatorships left a legacy which, in one way or another, has been of use and value to its following generations, if not as an example to the rest of humankind.
South Africa fast approaches a system of dictatorship founded to a large extent precisely upon the principles of racism which its initial fledgling and short lived democracy abhorred. The government of South Africa today manifests llittle promise for the advancement of its peoples of any colour, mired as it is in the final stages of an oligarchic administration, the historical harbinger of dictatorial rule. Negativity in the hope of promise for the future is further encouraged by even a cursory examination of the history of sub saharan Africa although it might be said with some degree of exactitude that so far, South Africa has not faced the ravages of civil war. Possibly that still lies in the future of the country. But for the time being at least, it might reasonably be said that similar fires that burned in Rome are being ignited as the likes of Zuma plays upon his not so imaginary machine gun. :suspect: