turkish pilots & turkish atc

[alpergokgoz]

ı wonder what do you think about turkish pilots and turkish atc staff ? ı was in swanwick few months ago and talked with a manager .ı believe in that brits are the best air traffic controllers and speedbird pilots are the best pilots:ugh::uhoh::hmm::rolleyes::suspect:

[Magp1e]

You cannot base aptitude or ability on nationality, there are very good and poor pilots and controllers of all nationalities. That said, some training systems and standards control are better than others........

[!turnleftrightnow!]

Turkish pilots are among the most uncomplicated customers I have...
Nothing to complain!:8

[discountinvestigator]

The Turkish Instrument Approach Procedures need to be improved. The plate used by the Yak 42 crew that hit the mountain in Trabzon had 18 non compliances with ICAO standards and 5 significant deviations.

The concept of glidepath critical areas appeared to be non existent with Ankara holds in front of the glidepath transmitter.

The signage of the airports could be improved
The training facilities for ATCOs was excellent with the new school.
The English language could be improved, but has got a lot better over the years

The usual lack of coordination between ATC and airports still seems to be there.

The Istanbul centre was OK last time I was there, as was Ankara, and improvements being made.

I cannot remember anything else without going to my files! However, the hospitality and the willingness to learn and improve remains with me.

[GF4RCE]

Well I been in turkey for the last 12mths now and have seen first hand how the Turkish aviation scene is from flight training level , atc procedures and some limited lineops from an observes point of view. I started my aviation career in Australia and compare the differences to these two environments.
As for the first question regarding the pilots them selves. Personally I think they are one of the most capable people I have seen. The stick and rudder skill of some of these pilots exhibit are extraordinary . One of the main reason for this is that most of Turkish aviation (captains) are occupied with ex military pilots, especially the ‘old timers’ who have flown in jets like the f86 f100 f104 f4 etc. these pilots have been built there aviation career on pure jet training and have 6th sense when it comes to correcting small error not normally noticed by the average pilot and not relying on technology as much. This is also the case with the older mirage pilots from the RAAF in Australia. How ever these pilots tend to lag behind the more adapt Morden jet pilots when it comes to technology. So you have a very interesting cockpit environment especially when the FO is a young freshman. Having said that the cockpit environment is slowly changing as well from being a very authoritarian atmosphere to a more team orientated one ( steep cockpit gradient). these older pilots exhibit the strong characteristics of the Turkish culture itself where it is seen to be impolite or an insult to question some one in a higher position in the chain of command and or other extreme the captain my even neglect to even acknowledge the presence of the first officer (tribal hierarchy). This is even made even worse by the fact that most of these pilots have a military background (extremely hierarchical ). This is rare but has been ‘rumoured to have happened’ and being Turkish my self can understand some of the deeper values and characteristics of the culture itself. But the newer generations of pilots are much more modern in thinking and more orientated towards team efficiency and productivity as technology is slowly offloading workload from the aircrew. This not to say that there skills are diminishing but rather being relocated to other areas to maximise productivity and safety.
On the training level is another case (Civilian training). Here training has a lot to be desired for from my view. Having seen the Australian pilot training scene and here made me realise how lucky I was to obtain my licence back in Australia. There are not many school here to choose from and from that limited supply of training organisations may be 2-3 or may be 4 that can train up to atpl level and of that number Turkish airlines have had sole use of one to train their up and coming new pilots. From what I seen there is a lack of training syllabus per school where every instructor trains the pilots to his own method provided its within the syllabus of the local civil aviation authority. For example within one training organisation I know the instructors roam free to train the student to his or her methods. Now consider this the student fly’s with one instructor and apply that technique with another instructor in which he or she is told do now to do it that way. The confusion I and other have seen on the student face really disturbs me. There are others things but that’s getting to deep in the subject. But rest assured they do get adequate training but the quality is something that needs to improve.
As for atc as long as you stay clear from Ercan Nicosia and Greek airspace around Cyprus area you wouldn’t be assigned 3 different flight levels at the same positions and not given 5 different radar vectors to fly? . other than that I think they do a ok job but there is room for a lot more improvement. Most are not used to high density traffic (aka Ankara) and tend to confuse themselves when there is a high volume are traffic around the terminal area. In i1case I know a c172 conducting circuits was told to hold north east of the runway due to a 737 being pushed back. I would of done 2-3 touch n goes on the other parallel runway before that 737 approached the holding point. You can notice the difference between the military background atc and a civilian trained one. Having said that they in my view safe and well organised most of the time.
I agree with discountinvestigator and the comments made there is still for some really silly reason the lack of communication between the departments (e.g aiport staff and ATC and even SHGM). The signage need to improve a lot more in some airfields. As far as I have seen Antalya and Istanbul and may be by the slightest of margins Ankara are acceptable.
**The concept of glidepath critical areas appeared to be non existent with Ankara holds in front of the glidepath transmitter.** that’s just one location there are a few more which would can be put in the same category.
Having said all this keep in mind that the Turkish civil aviation environment is relatively new and its still a learning and improving process … much has changed from when the skies were opened up also being a JAA member has accelerated the improvements to the system and hopefully keep on improving to consider it a developed industry.
As I said these are my views and my different from that of someone else within the Turkish aviation scene or of the official view of the local civil aviation authority.

[songbird29]

I visited Ankara ATC Centre some eight or ten years ago. Talked with management and stayed the whole day at the sectors in the Centre, to get the feel. Very motivated staff at all levels, but poor and outdated computers (286-based, for those who remember this predecessor of XP and Vista), awaiting replacement as part of a modernisation plan.

Huge problems in civil-military relations were apparent. Military jets (Turkish and other NATO) were crossing airways and other controlled airspace, without any co-ordination and giving rise to nasty confrontations.

Funnily enough it reminded me to situations in Western Europe during cold war high-days in the seventies when military flights also had the habit of crossing and even dogfighting into "our" civilian airway. With a bit of luck you had a transponder signal but mostly you could only see their primary (at the time we still had primary), which gave you the shivers. They could be anywhere between 3000' and FL 300, but you couldn't afford to miss out on essential traffic information. Horror, luckily the 'big air' theory has always been on our side.

With better technical means and procedures things got much better in most parts of Western Europe. I wonder whether there has been improvement in Turkey.

[kanka555]

Anybody know what happend in AYJET flight school ? I heard that they are about bankrupt. Rumors says that Kadir and Akin Peker has quit from company and heading to setup another school. Currently AYJET in financial problems ? Anybody know anything ?

Thanks indeed.

Student Pilot

[SINGAPURCANAC]

My two cents...
I heard a lot of stories about Turkish ATC because I worked with ATCOs that had been trained in Turkey. They have very positive attitude towards people and organization . Having no own experience I will leave to others more details.

About Turkish airliners...
I will agree with above posts ,more or less they are correct.
I will just add my personal experience.
THY- For me the same level as DLH and BAW,no difference. Excellent job:ok::D Quite reliable.So far I haven't have any problem.

ATLAS JET,BLACK SEA(know also as MNG) and other Turkish charters,
WARNING ,
I always taking some level of precautions .years of experience with those airlines bring some new rules for me.
DOUBLE SEPARATION i.e. instead of 5 Nm or 1000 ft, I applied
10 Nmand 2000 ft. Sometimes even such type of separation may be inadequate.
You may expect everything from crews.
One thing is as a rule when they are involved.
It is not question will they make mistake or not.
It is just question what will happen.
having that in mind I always regret over the Turkish ATCOs destiny.
They work with them more occasionally.:{
Just to quote local representative of Turkish airlines.
MNG ,NO GOOD!:=

[myriakephalon]

you are wrong kanka,Ayjet FTO didn't go bankrupt.It is correct that their regional airline project with Dash-8s failed,Kadir and Akın Peker just resigned from instructing,they are still shareholders.6th group graduated and 12th group will start in October.