ADF/DME becoming extinct

[nouseforaname]

Thinking of putting in an ADF/DME in my aircraft before I sell it so as I can advertise it as Airways equipped...

Is the DME/ADF requirement now gone for flying airways in Europe? Heard rumours so thought would ask views on here. I know that GPS is on the cards for taking over some time 'soon' but don't like the CAA/EASA definition of 'soon'...

[IO540]

You can find the equipment carriage requirements in each country's AIP ENR 1.5.

Every one I have looked at requires DME.

Some require an ADF, but not many, and I don't think any of the new JAA members have bothered for enroute IFR. For flying an NDB approach of course, and there are plenty of those all around Europe.

I have not seen any evidence that anything will change on this front. A lot of talk and rumour (as always in this business) but nothing is actually changing.

The UK might remove the requirement for enroute but that still leaves the rest of Europe, and screws you on legally flying NDB approaches everywhere.

Lots of airports are say VOR/DME and NDB/DME and if the VOR is U/S then you have to use the ADF. Personally I would regard a plane without an ADF as close to useless for IFR.

Most pilots fly NDB approaches primarily using a GPS (with a quick ADF check at the FAF, say) which is obviously the safest way but that's not the point ;)

I would also say all of the above for flying around the UK with the IMC Rating.

[S-Works]

putting an ADF in does not make it "airways equipped"!!!
For an airways fit you will require an ADF a DME and FM Immune radios as well as a Mode S transponder. VOR/Loc etc. ADF is required for airways flying a lot of intersections are still NDB beacons WCO for example.

Not to mention the usual stuff like 2 alts. GPS can be used as primary nav in the airways now I use a GNS430 for the purpose ut you are still required to carry all of the other equipment.

[the dean]

agreed...and presumably it would be reflected adversly in the price if you could not call it ''airways equipped''....

so though from a practical point of view even though we rarely use it these days for en route as 10540 says many approaches still require it so i would say ...yes...i would fit them...:ok:

no question about the dme...

the dean.

[IO540]

GPS can be used for primary nav in all circumstances, bose-x ;)

GPS happens to be the only way, in the GA context, of meeting the BRNAV requirement, FL095+ in Europe.

Sorry to be pedantic :)

The Dean - I can't speak for others but if I was buying a plane for IFR use I would hope to be intelligent enough to be able to work out what is needed to make it (a) legal and (b) usable, and if I needed to spend say £5k on fitting an ADF from scratch, I would take that into account when looking at the whole deal. I don't think the statement "airways equipped" is going to make a better price, as opposed to listing the actual fit.

In general, money spent on avionics is not really recovered when selling, which is why it pays to buy a plane on which the previous owner has spent all his money :)

[High Wing Drifter]

nouseforanem,

I guess that things will start changing when Galileo comes on-line. I suspect this system will be treated as a cash cow, NDBs, VORs, etc (inc approaches) decommissioned and replaced with subscription only GPS for enroute, non-precision approaches and the like.

[S-Works]

Now come on IO you know better than to get into a GPS debate with me.

The question was about airways and GPS is specifically permitted as a PRIMARY nav source enroute. Using GPS elsewhere is not specifically permitted or denied it just makes good sense!

Anyway back to the point, it is not just appraoches that require an ADF take a look at an airways chart and there are still a lot of NDB's that make up airways.

But as far as the orginal question, if I turned up to look at an aicraft advertised as airways equipped I would expect to be able to take off there and then and do a full airways trip legally with an approach at the end. So all the kit has to be FM Immune where required, 2 x VHF/ILS/VOR, ADF, DME, 2 alts.

As IO says just sell it as it is and let the new buyer decide!

[denhamflyer]

Things are actually changing:-
French AIP GEN 1.5
Carriage requirements for aircraft in IFR flights
2.1.1Longitudinal precision
To fly in upper airspace and in some specified lower airspace sections,
all aircraft shall be equipped with a distance measuring equipment
(DME) or with a device giving a longitudinal precision at least equivalent.
They are also specifically allowing for RNAV as a replacement for DME (see AIC A 16B/04)
As EGNOS is coming online I think things will change. Only wish the UK would be at the front of the curve and not be caught sleeping as usual.

[Dr Eckener]

GPS happens to be the only way, in the GA context, of meeting the BRNAV requirement, FL095+ in Europe.

RNAV such as a KNS80 if fine for this. Thought it was F085, but would need to recheck.

[IO540]

A KNS80 would be no good for European airways. You often get a DCT or "own nav" to a waypoint which - even if it is a VOR/DME - is way too far away for reception.

ATC simply assume you can navigate to point X no matter where it is.

You could tell them you can't, I suppose. I had an IFR GPS failure once, and got them to give me vectors / VOR nav. But this isn't normal procedure at all.

[scooter boy]

Huge chasms are present between what is required by law and what is practically sensible to have. Interestingly our American cousins have done away with ADF and DME as required equipment for an IFR fit.
The woeful inaccuracy of ADF/NDB compared with GPS fully justifies this IMHO.
Hopefully the advent of GPS approaches (which they have had in the US for ages and are amazed that we have not) will see the antiquated NDB/ADF system being phased out.

DME still has a place, but ADF is a complete waste of space IMHO.

SB ;)

[A and C]

The KNS80 is an option for European BRNAV provided that it has the FM immunity filter fitted.

The only problem with the filter is that it cuts down the range of the VOR This makes the range problem refered to by IO540 even worse.

So in short the KNS80 or 81 are leagal but not practical.

[S-Works]

The only practical option in GA flying for BRNAV is a GPS. I have yet to meet another regualt airways flyer who is flyin airways relying on the old steam methods.

It is fine to come up with smart arse comments about only needing a compass for IFR flight but that is not what is being discussed here. The UK is an anomoly in that you can fly IFR with only a basic PPL and that you can fly IFR in Class G.

The reality of IFR flight is that it takes place in controlled airspace starting or ending in a procedure. For this appropriate equipment is needed which included ADF and DME.

[nouseforaname]

thanks very much fella's...

[Flyin'Dutch']

In general, money spent on avionics is not really recovered when selling

Worth to bear in mind.

[bflyer]

Hi

personally i think that an ADF/RMI is always a plus in any aircraft regardless of its size or the region where it flies
but then again..am old and sentimental..:O

[Piltdown Man]

I've done too many ADF approaches to say that they should be got rid of. They are also a nice piece of kit to help when you do an ILS. Old, Naff, difficult to interpret by some, non-sexy but really useful! Keep them I say!

PM