9/11 Compensation fight fails

[Lucifer]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6385563.stm

Legally correct, but can't say much for his future career as a pilot now. Pity than unsupported allegations can be so destructive...another thing that the US administration has yet to answer for.

[TheGorrilla]

Tarred with that big fat American know-all brush that makes 99% suffer for the actions of 1%. You're right the administration have alot to answer for. Would even be nice if they admitted their errors for a start!

Stoopid numpties!!!!

[20driver]

Gorrila, which would you like - jumping from 109th floor or dragging through the courts a few years. Pity a couple of my neighbors didn't get the choice.
Seems to me the hijackers have a lot to answer for, question is who is asking?
20driver

[Interlude]

20Driver, I would prefer being dragged through the courts for a few years.

Which would you like – being dragged through the courts for a few years or being left alone to live your life. Pity this guy didn't get a choice.

[andrijander]

20d,
what are you talking about? We have here the case of a guy wrongly accused of something that had nothing to do with him and left to rot afterwards w/out any option for compensation from the very same ppl that ruined his life. Yes, just by chance, this is linked to 9/11. But what if it didn't? Your comments are way out of the point.
I think lately we're finding ourselves, as little individuals, let down systematically by this new-found "international law void". I guess if this poor guy now seeked compensation from the US they would tell him to get lost also-that's considering they would even answer. So nowhere to turn to.
At the end of the day his career as pilot is dead even before it starts and he has spent five months in prison for the sake of it -and apparently he has paid some bail that amounts to god only knows what. Lovely, isn't it?
A.

[20driver]

My point is simple. 9/11 was not intiated by the United States. Rassi is a victim off the hijackers just like the pilots of the 4 planes. Wrong time, wrong place.

The cause of this was the "movement" behind the hijackers, the London tube bombers, Madrid train bombers etc.

I don't like the current US government, but I like the other side even less. Rassi got sucked into a bad deal but lives to walk away.

9/11 ruined a lot of lives and the hijackers created an impact well beyond the event. Their sucessors continue to do so. The have a goal of replacing our secular society with a rule of law with an Islamic theocracy. How come they have nothing to answer for on these forums?

20driver

[Lucifer]

Yes, but then you get back to the age-old ridiculous argument that whatever the government says and does is law, and people are not permitted to criticise or have any freedoms at all.

Habeus corpus and other rights we have exist for a reason - to prevent the government overstepping the mark. Without these rights, the terrorists essentially win through degrading our rights.

The arguments for and against the way the US operates at the moment all fail as they are essentially polarised - yes, there is a middle point, which will sometime involve innocents losing their liberty in the pursuit of the terrorists. What is not however acceptable is for the administration to turn its back on them once their innocence, or lack of guilt, is proven.


9/11 was awful, but dragging this situation into the realms of emotion by mentioning the poor people who died that day is utterly besides the point.

[Tigs2]

20driver

My point is simple. 9/11 was not intiated by the United States. Rassi is a victim off the hijackers just like the pilots of the 4 planes. Wrong time, wrong place.


Everybody was therefore a victim of the hijackers, including all in the twin towers, however, the families of all those killed and those people that were injured were all offered compensation. This man looses his career and investment in flying, and gets nothing. He, like all the people on the flights, like all the injured, all the families who lost so much were dragged in to this by the Hijackers.

[Stoic]

20driver

But surely these issues are not “simple”?

How did the “movement behind the highjackers” get support in the Arab street? Could it be anything to do with Western, in particular U.S. (and British) foreign policy as applied to the Middle East. Is the Saudi regime OK? Was the Shah’s U.S. and U.K. installed regime which ruled Iran from 1953 until 1979 with the use of secret police and torture (with the avid support of the U.S.), OK?

As you rightly say, 9/11 was a terrible event which ruined many lives, but so did late Twentieth Century Irish terrorism. And where did the funding come from to support Irish terrorism? The funding of Irish terrorism came to a full-stop with 9/11.

The British legal system failed disastrously and jailed innocent Irishman for crimes they had not committed. The Americans now jail people for unlimited periods because they just “know” that these are “bad people”. The rule of law has broken down.

In 1911 Britain was suffering from a wave of attacks by immigrant anarchists. Josiah Wedgwood MP, a descendant of the campaigning anti-slavery Josiah Wedgwood (who struck the celebrated anti-slavery medallion), wrote to the then British Home Secretary Winston Churchill: “It is fatally easy to justify them [draconian anti-terrorist laws] but they lower the character of a whole nation. You know as well as I do that human life does not matter a rap in comparison with the death of ideas and the betrayal of English traditions. Rebelling against civilisation and society will go on anyhow and this is merely a new form of the disease of ’48 [1848]; so let us have English rule not Bourbon.”

The same applies today. For “English” substitute “American”, for “Bourbon” substitute “Stalinist”.

We can only beat terrorism if our societies stick to their principles and the rule of law.

Regards


Stoic

[Flying Lawyer]

20driver
My point is simple. 9/11 was not intiated by the United States.
Accepting (for the purposes of discussion) that is a 100% accurate statement, do you say that the victims of 9/11 should not have been given compensation by the US government because "9/11 was not initiated by the United States"?

Would you be taking the same line if the pilot wasn't Arab?

[BusyB]

How can a law to compensate for "Miscarriages of Justice" not apply to any miscarriage of justice??

"miscarriages of justice, but government lawyers said this did not apply to extradition cases."

Does this not seem self contradictory?:confused: :confused:

[20driver]

I'm not saying anything about who is entitled to compensation for what.
The courts seem to have dealt with that. Your balliwick, not mine.
Saying the US has a lot to answer for a British court decision is a bit rich.
The point that no one seems to want to address is that would this have occured with out 9/11 - Think not. Who triggered 9/11?


It is so easy to blame the big bad USA for everything. If I was behind any of these attacks this is exactly the reaction I'd want to achieve.

20driver

[Flying Lawyer]

Saying the US has a lot to answer for a British court decision is a bit rich.
I didn't say that.
The point that no one seems to want to address is that would this have occured with out 9/11 - Think not. Who triggered 9/11?
People have addressed it.
No, this (particular instance) would not have occurred without 9/11.
Who triggered 9/11?
Pass. (Because this isn't the forum for political discussion about problems in the Middle East and/or the consequences of American foreign policy in the ME.)
If you mean: Who committed the atrocity on 9/11?
Vile terrorists extremists.
Is that relevant to the specific topic under discussion?
No, IMHO.

[Lucifer]

Yes, you are correct 20driver, that there is no US involvement in such and he is falling between international laws - it was rather the implication that he can lump it as we are at a time of "war" as a result of 9/11 that somewhat irked me and others.

Furthermore, we should surely be adult enough to recognise that the legal responsibility is not the same as the moral responsibility of:

a) the UK government for locking him up
b) the US prosecutor for requesting extradition on little or no evidence

[PAXboy]

Lucifer, based in the UK, posts a short statement of fact.
TheGorilla, based in the Zoo (profile suggests a UK zoo), introduces the word 'American'.
20driver, based in the US, jumnps down his throat and assumes that we (UK) are attacking the helpless victims of the US.
Thereafter, it all detriorates with predictable rapidity.So:
The UK courts complied with a US request to detain an individual.
After five months the person is released and told that he has no case to answer.
The world, thanks to the fine members of the media, have bound his name up with everything that is 9/11.
The man would like some compensation for his life and career being ruined.
The British govt say that they will give him nothing and, by the way, are going to deport him to a country that will treat him as a criminal.Some of us think that is not very nice and the fault rests ENTIRELY with the British govt. It rests with them because they listened to the US govt but this thread is about (to my reading) criticising the UK, no the US. So 20d can relax.

Simple.

[Ye Olde Pilot]

And we can all guess the reaction if this had been a young American pilot locked up without trial in a Muslim/Communist regime. One law for the USA, another for the world.

The Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney clanhas set international air travel back decades.

Sadly some of the Fox news brigade still approve witch hunts.

[RatherBeFlying]

Here in Canada, Maher Arar was awarded $11.5 million by the federal govt in settlement of a lawsuit. Canada bears a significant responsibility in this case, but it was the Yanks that kidnapped him and dumped him in Syria to be tortured for a year.

If I was the Canadian govt, I'd be going after the Yanks for a big piece of that $11.5 million.
I suggest the Brits do the same for Rassi -- determine a fair compensation and sue the yanks for a fat piece of it.

[cheetoh737]

Ye Olde Jerk:
Last time I checked, the Twin Towers murderers were Muslim, not Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld.

[lordsummerisle]

Also believe that they were Saudi Arabian, not Iraqi? So does that make everybody killed in Iraq since due to making people think that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11 and had WMD's murder victims of Bush,Cheney,Rumsfeld and sadly Blair?

[Ancient Observer]

Is there any chance of reverting to Aviation themes in this thread?

[cheetoh737]

Sadly, in the short time I have been observing this part of the Prune, most threads start out aviation
oriented but then quickly deteriorate into "I hate America" rants from our so-called friends from the U.K. The nasty posts from these folks are left untouched by the Moderators but any rebuttal from a "Yank" are usually deleted in short order. (As this one will be within the hour I suppose)

[sikeano]

Not every one here in UK is Anti American, It is the Great Citizens of US are anti world . We just laugh at them, If the Carry on film crew were around they would have made a film Carry on a holiday to America :ugh:
The thing is we can only judge something from what we read in the papers which is written by some journos,who are the second best thing after sliced bread
If the Bloke is Innocent as he claims then he is hard done by End of story
Can we stick to some aviation stories now please :ok:

[Lucifer]

Cheetoh:

You made a sweeping statement implying that as a Muslim's co-religionists were responsible, we should all be scared of him, and it's not our fault that we are hugely suspicious of him. We have already established that is tosh, so expect to get the full force of educated opinion if you think you can get away with such sweeping statements.

UK people have experienced terrorism close-up with the IRA, and have learnt how to draw it to a peaceful conclusion. If Americans spent more time listening to their allies rather than preaching from a position of ignorance, many would have more time.

Unforatunately, the US only hears the UK shouting most of the time. The truth is that all those other pesky countries are shouting as well - it's just that not many Americans understand foreign languages.


The aviation theme was that a chap's life has been unfairly ruined by irresponsible actions of the UK and US governments. This has naturally drifted due to the nature of the case...don't however allow this to become Jet Blast trash, as this chap's career is a serious matter.

[Flybywyre]

The nasty posts from these folks are left untouched by the Moderators but any rebuttal from a "Yank" are usually deleted in short order.
And quite rightly so ............ :ok:
Regards
FBW

[PAXboy]

Scenario: A US commercial pilot is working in an Oriental country. He is legal and has all the paperwork.

One day, following a big bank robbery, the Police arrive at his apartment block to arrest him. At the station, they say that a bunch of bank robbers had been living in that same apartment block. They were all US citizens and he (the pilot) was the only other American in the aaprtment block. The Police 'knew' that he was part of the gang and was going to fly them all out after the bank raid.

After three months, they release him without charge but say they are going to deport him. He has lost his job and, thanks to the loverly people in the Media - everyone thinks that he had something to do with it. The country that locked him him up will not pay any compensation for his lost livlihood and career.

What reaction would come from Washington DC and the good people of the USA?

I am serious here!! Please could US residents tell me what they think would be the official reaction if one of their own was treated like that?

[sikeano]

Paxboy suggst the pilot to try the local American Embassy,They should be in a position to help that Pilot