Air France

[Hollymead]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6157704.stm

[OLNEY 1 BRAVO]

I'm sure the French unions will have something to say about that!!:rolleyes:

[ICING AOA]

I'm sure the French unions will have something to say about that!!:rolleyes:


french union "SNPL" = Air france

so,...:ugh:

[Hollymead]

To be called Air France Soleil.



http://euronews.net/create_html.php?page=detail_eco&article=391368&lng=1

[shon7]

It's on the news that AF will start service to SEA using the A330 aircraft.

[SOPS]

And where is SEA?

[mrl979]

SEA: Seattle, Washington.

[SOPS]

Ahhh Thanks for the info:)

[AMS flyer]

Just confirmed by VLM's CEO Johan Vanneste:

Air France-KLM TAKES OVER VLM AIRLINES

SCHIPHOL - Air France-KLM officially takes over Flemish VLM Airlines. VLM Airlines, which is the largest player on London City Airport, will cooperate intensively with CityJet, a subsidiary company of Air France. The Dutch Panta Holdings were so far the owner of VLM Airlines.
VLM Airlines operates daily multiple flights between Schiphol and Rotterdam to Great Britain. The fleet exists of eighteen Fokker 50s and one leased BAe-146.
CEO Johan Vanneste of VLM Airlines is happy with the adoption by Air France-KLM. By the intensive cooperation with CityJet both companies increase their position on London City Airport enormously and give passengers the choice of more destinations and more frequencies.

source: luchtvaartnieuws.nl

[u0062]

Many pilots flying for VLM originally left klm cityhopper because of the appauling way they were treated .They were AIR UK guys and girls not from the High and mighty KLM training schools and they were not 'Dutch'

I hope the KLM treat them with a great more respect and dignity this time around.However i fear not. Good luck to you all

[SOPS]

I fear this is not good news for all......:*

[WHBM]

Does put rather a lot of eggs in one basket at London City. And VLM must have been finding things tight and were retrenching a bit anyway.

Never mind. VLM prospered like many small businesses by seeking opportunities the overstuffed international bureaucracy at KLM and others could not see, and operated in a different way to them. If it all now gets rolled up into the big operation and lost, there will then be new opportunities for a "new VLM" to come along at London City or elsewhere, restart all the routes which will now be miraculously found to be "loss-making", and be entrepreneurial and customer-facing again.

Wonder what will happen to Denim Air, VLM's ACMI arm.

[Chuffer Chadley]

Yes, I hope this works better than the previous KLM takeover of a F-50 operator.

Great uncertainty lies ahead, it's time to check that the BALPA subscription is up-to date, and keep fingers crossed.

FWIW, my understanding is that Denim is separately-owned, albeit by Jaap Rosen Jacobson / Panta holdings, so as far as I know, they are unaffected by this deal. I do not imagine that KLM would be interested in their type of operation, but could be wrong!

CC

[-IBLB-]

Antwerp, Monday 24th December 2007 – Panta Holdings B.V., owner of VLM Airlines, announced today it has reached an agreement on terms for the sale of VLM Airlines to Air France-KLM.

Jaap Rosen Jacobson, owner of Panta Holdings, said: “VLM Airlines is a jewel amongst the regional airlines. It has developed from a small airline into the most important player at London City Airport. I am proud about this development and even more about the exiting opportunities ahead for VLM Airlines under the wings of Air France-KLM.“

VLM Airlines is one of Europe's leading regional carriers catering principally for business travellers. The company operates a fleet of 18 Fokker 50 and one BAE 146. London City Airport is the hub for the majority of its flights and therefore VLM Airlines will actively cooperate with the regional carrier CityJet, a 100% subsidiary of Air France, which is already operating out of London City Airport.

Johan Vanneste, Managing Director of VLM Airlines, said: “I’m very excited that VLM Airlines will be part of the Air France – KLM group. It will create value for our customers, as this transaction will ensure them access to the largest number of destinations from London City Airport. The strengths of the Air France – KLM group will provide the necessary support to take the development of VLM Airlines to the next level.”

Mr Geoffrey O'Byrne-White, CityJet's Chief Executive, commented: "We see this as a great opportunity to expand and to offer an optimal product to our customers. Both networks are highly complementary and the new combined network will link London City with major European business and financial centres.

Panta Holdings B.V. was advised on the transaction by N M Rothschild & Sons Limited. The financial details of the transaction are not disclosed.


http://www.flyvlm.com/emc.asp?pageId=1184

[wxjedi]

Expect to see those new RJs zipping over and back to AMS then. Nice overnight for the Cityjet crews though. Maybe now Cityjet can finally get the DUB-AMS route in the air. After all, KLM code share with EI on it.

Are the Fokkers gonna end up in the new Cityjet colours like the the D328s?

Good move all round I reckon!!!

Tom


Happy Christmas to all you other poor sods down route this Christmas. Home on the 28th. Yipee.

[Elohssanaig]

Hear, hear bluepilot and WHBM.

Remember NetherLines? They got the same "blue arrogance" treat......

[PAXboy]

CEO Johan Vanneste of VLM Airlines is happy with the adoption by Air France-KLM. By the intensive cooperation with CityJet both companies increase their position on London City Airport enormously and give passengers the choice of more destinations and more frequencies.I think they forgot to add "and give passengers more choices of prices and departure times..." :rolleyes:

However, it goes, the world is entering a very tricky financial time and better to be employed and wondering if you will stay, than to be out of a job such as those in Maxjet.

[captphil]

Why the Cup holder?

[captphil]

Why the take off????? I only meant to be honest.Put the coment back on for christ sake. Or the whole things not worth it.:ugh::bored:

[GBALU53]

Sad news to read all this , could it be if you are unable to compete with them on some routes buy them out?

[tocamak]

I understood that it was City-Jet who were involved here and that they are owned by Air France principally. KLM are just a subsidiary of Air France and so presumably won't be calling the shots on this take-over. I don't know how this will work out in comparison to the AirUK takeover but without doubt a time of concern for those involved.

[lalbak]

VLM is being taken over by the entire Air France/KLM group and what we at VLM have heard from management is that it will still take a month or 2 for the deal to be approved, after which VLM will keep its name and operation. It is expected that VLM will take over KLM cityhopper's fokker 50's and crews and hopefully the F50 routes as well. KLC has previously announced that it would like to shed the F50 and fly an all jet fleet (this would be the F70/100 and the Embraer jets that are coming).

We will see what happens, I hope we can keep our current operation as it is right now along with management cuz they are great and im not waiting to be sucked up into the bigger KLM group. It will be interesting to see if possibilities open up for VLM crew to move up onto KLM's fleet.

[Ennie]

Interesting, however, I can say that if you ever get the opportunity to fly for KLM, not Cityhopper, you will be treated the way you would expect, I have now flown for both, the difference is huge.

[Jam-Man]

It seems most angles have already been covered here in previous replies. All I'll add is that I've flown both KLC and VLM. VLM have been a pleasure to work for. KLC were quite the opposite. Their appalling hospitality, manners and work ethic have left many of us scarred for life, quite literally. They should be ashamed of what they did to us, and for the damage they did to their own business (but I'd bet they feel nothing, and have learnt even less from the whole experience).
Just as with the AirUK 'harmonisation', management are initially 'very happy' with the deal. I wonder if they'll all be so happy when they are the first to go when after a year or so HQ at ANR is closed down? I guess we'll see...
I hope I'm being pessimistic here but having seen how KLM operate it's hard not to be... I just hope AF have a great deal more common sense and a better ability to deal with people, and I also hope they stay in charge of all this...

What a bl*+dy Christmas present... Just what I always wanted!! :mad:

[Mister Geezer]

So after this news... how long will VLM continue to lease the BAe 146-300 that they have been using from RTM to LCY?

[lalbak]

The BAe146 is part of a test in which (as far as i understand) vlm is looking for an addition/replacement for the F50 in the form of a jet. Thus I dont see why the operation of this aircraft should be altered. However with the new financial backing it would be nice if jet interest could switched to something like a ERJ135

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Erj135 doesn`t have enough seats. Think they trialled the 146 has it has more than 50 seats and there is enough interest to fill more than 50 seats at a time on that route.

[RAFAT]

I've heard it rumoured a couple of times that a UK operator (aside from Flybe) is aiming to acquire 10 x DHC8-400s. I'm just putting 2 & 2 together here, so as always DYOR. However, there's obviously a few ex-SAS ones available.

In the circumstances it would be daft to replace the F50 with a lower capacity jet as Delta Wun-Wun states.

[Yak97]

Does the deal include Denim Air? Weren't VLM & Denim owned by the same people?

[Mister Geezer]

Well since VLM's new owners will now (indirectly through CityJet) have a wealth of knowledge and expertise in operating the BAe146/Avro RJ family, it seems counter productive for the lease to go on!

[WHBM]

One of the best bits of customer-first attitude I ever saw in the industry took place aboard a VLM F50.

We were all sat aboard on the London City ramp ready to depart for Manchester. Skipper came on the PA to say there were still a few minutes before departure time and we were "waiting for a connecting passenger". Sure enough another VLM F50, inbound from Antwerp and a bit late, taxied in to the adjacent stand and our dispatcher was waiting by their steps. Out get pax #1 and the DS speaks to him and takes him towards us.

Guess what, he had hold baggage. Ramper opens hold, pax identifies his bag, DS takes it, puts pax up our stairs and bag in our hold. Completes load sheet, and we are closed up and away on time.

Poor travel-weary pax in his dishevelled suit (appeared to be Spanish as his newspaper he was reading was in that language) collapses in our plane and sleeps the trip up to Manchester.

Now KLM, can you match that ? The whole thing had presumably been coordinated on the company frequency in the minutes beforehand. VLM got to where they are by knowing the business traveller world inside-out and working in this and similar ways.

[Dragon tracker]

It is interesting to read about the great service a VG pax got on a interesting transit.

I wonder if this breached some DFT regulations?

Normally a pax on transit from an International flight to a domestic flight needs to clear UK immigration and customs at UK entry point.

Also they need to clear UK security screening.

On outbounds from the UK, the transit would not be an issue apart from maybe what LCY have to say about it.

I have experienced this as a hand baggage pax travelling between MAN and Antwerp 3 years ago. We arrived next to the aircraft that was travelling to Antwerp.
They had boarded and were ready to go. We were 10 mins late and I still got put onto a bus to domestic arrivals, had to go up the stairs and negotiate security. I missed the flight, but did get re-booked onto the next one 2 hours later without any questions or fussing.

I agree that VLM has a great product and think their management style is good too. It is a refreshing airline in this day and age and I only hope their joining AF / KL is not going to compromise their customer service.

I wish you all at VG the best for the future in your new relationship with the Dutch and French.

[ADC2604]

Dragon tracker

Thinking the same as me there......

[KLMer]

Ah so the rumours a few months ago were true then, after all there is never smoke without fire (well most of the time anyhow).

Well I have to say it makes sense now as KLM have just given up LHR slots used by their Fokker 50 (i beleive LHR-EIN but may be wrong) for NW flights out of LHR to the USA, plus im guessing LCY is a far more pratical airport to use than LHR for those business travellers.

I wonder what all the poor ex AirUK guys are thinking "Oh god here we go again". Well if BALPA is going to do as good a job as they did with AirUK then god help you guys, i watched it all and was so disheartened at BALPA's lack of ability to do anything. Having said that Im sure KLM and KLMcityhopper learnt alot form the previous takeover. Shall wait and see what happens to VLM im sure though it will not be all bad and may open up oportuinities.

If you guys do get the oportunity to apply for the KLM (mainline) contract i can recommend it, its a good deal (for the younger guys and girls). KLM are short of pilots and are running out out candidates from there school KLS and also NLS so im sure free market pilots will be lapped up, seniority lists expanding quickly as well as large orders for new aircraft both in KLMCityhopper and KLM.

It might be an added bonus for the English that are still flying for KLMcityhopper could there be an LCY basing for them now to deadhead out of or even be able to use VLM for XCM travel.

[wxjedi]

From what I'm hearing AF/KLM will have little to do with this apart from being the parent.

The F50s and crews will be transferred to Cityjet and the F50s will eventually be replaced by RJs. The high pax rotations will transfer to RJs effective for the summer season with the F50 doing some of the lighter rotations.

Makes Cityjet a very strong player at LCY.
Looks like BA missed the boat (perhaps intenionally)

Tom

[Slick 69]

You got it in one Tom!

VLM welcome to Cityjet.

Forget Airfrance/KLM.

Slick

[GOAROUNDMAN]

VLM flights appear in Luxair's timetable so what's the connection (no pun intended) between Luxair and VLM and how will this affect Luxair if AF-KLM takeover VLM?:confused:

[virginblue]

They used to code-share until 3-4 years ago when Luxair decided to move its STN flight to LCY and compete head-to-head with VLM. I am surprised to hear that they code-share nowadays - what is your source?

[GOAROUNDMAN]

Thanks Virgin Blue

I've just checked the Luxair online timetable and Manchester to Luxembourg flight is no longer there! Yet I have a hard copy( LUXAIR) dated 28/10/07 to 29/03/2008 and it lists Man-Lux with 4 flights a day via LCY with VG flight codes. I know Luxair dropped the route a few months ago and even flew on one the last flights which was pretty full. So the question is If Luxair pulled off the route because of the competition from VLM then why advertise their flights it in the timetable?

[virginblue]

I guess they offer MAN-LCY-LUX with only the first leg being operated by VLM. So what you see is not a code-share but just a one-stop service on two airlines (VG123/LG456).

[danielh]

Klm-AirFrance are almost taking over Alitalia
Rumours say 500 pilots will be fired.
This will create a big problems for students pilot in the coming year.
What do you guys think?

[ekpilot]

With Air France advertising for EU pilots for the A320, I doubt that there will be any reduncancies. Take a look at the job sectioin in Flight international this week, it's all good news for us all.

[neil armstrong]

I expect a big strike! the Italian unions will never accept the job cuts.

Neil

[Cater]

Have had some dealing with AZ in the past I am sure the unions will fight this tooth and nail

[jetopa]

Does anybody wonder why nobody else was even thinking of touching Alitalia? Hope that AF/KLM does not burn their fingers with that deal...

Could very well happen. This one and the decline of near bankrupt Olympic Airways will only help to clean up inequities in the market. Stable and profitable operators = stable jobs for us all.:ok:

[golfyankeesierra]

Every child knows that the italians will strike; even the AF/KL management won't be such idiots that they don't know.
I suspect that's part of the plan.
Let them strike and run the company down.
And then just start from scratch.

Difference with SABENA is that they didn't have a home-market.
Whilst Italy is Europe's last available major market for sale.

That's the whole point; It's about Italy and not about AZ!

[deltayankee]

It's not just about the inevitable strikes. The other tricky problem with AZ is that for political reasons Alitalia had to maintain two hubs: one in Rome FCO, for the administrative capital, and one in Milan Malpensa, serving the economic capital. They couldn't abandon Rome since it is the home of the government and closing the Malpensa hub would wind up not just the unions but also the northern Italian separatists, the Lega Nord, and more moderate local politicians. A lot of local jobs are at stake and a lot of people are watching AF-KLM closely.

Will AF-KLM be able to fix this and choose one hub? Closing one AZ base could eliminate jobs even if there is plenty of work because not everyone will want to move. Could someone else then go for the other hub?

[orangedriver]

Don't forget that this is a take-over and not a merger. I am no specialist in employment laws but me thinks the union (AZ) will have no say whatsoever in this case. They can strike, refuse to work, call for people to call in sick etc etc. Only result, as someone already mentioned, will be that the company will cease operations and AF/KLM will start up a new operation with a similar structure to AF and KLM.

I spoke to an Italian colleague the other day and he told me that the big problem in AZ is not really the pilot force. As far as I could understand (think I have read something similar from a AZ pilot here on pprune) the major problem has to do with contracts between the AZ "airline" and the AZ "gound handling", Alitech, Cleaning etc etc. These contracts prevents the "airline" from signing contracts with outside companies to become more cost efficient and competitive. Anyone?

I would be showering in champagne if ezy were to be bought out by such a strong alliance as the AF/KLM one!
With the unstable economy ahead, slowing UK housing market, US economy in general, more competition on EU-US routes, high oil price, higher environmental pressure from EU governments etc etc I see AF/KLM, Lufthansa and perhaps BA (Let's see how they handle the strike threat!) totally dominating the future European market together with a few big low cost operators. If you are not working for one of these companies your future could potentially be quite uncertain.:bored:

[orangedriver]

Will AF-KLM be able to fix this and choose one hub? Closing one AZ base could eliminate jobs even if there is plenty of work because not everyone will want to move. Could someone else then go for the other hub?

Well, welcome to 2008! If you are not willing to move, when your company is potentially saved from bankruptcy, then you have made a choice not to work. Tough luck, go find another job then. AF/KLM will do what ever it takes to make the airline profitable again, this is something AZ management should have started working on 5-6 years ago when most other EU carriers did, or ceased operating.

Sounds a bit harsh, but this is the result of open competition in EU.

[flynerd]

AF/KLM takeover of ALITALIA Dang, and all the talk of strikes... I am sched to fly JFK to Italy this summer and do not want to stuck in NY. We purposely booked ALITALIA to bypass LHR and BA and LHansa. LHR is a nightmare for all and the seats are too close together on Lufthansa for all but pygmies. ( Cattle Class that is!)

Damn.

[The cosmopolitan boy]

Well sad Orangedriver. :D
Alitalia management has been unwilling to change Alitalia for the better for their own benefit:=. The result is an airline a step away from bankruptcy. :ugh:I believe that Unions had a big role in bringing AZ to this situation. They don't understand that rules have changed. 9/11, Oil price, low cost airlines, etc....As I sad many times, Michael O'Leary should be running Alitalia:ok:...

[MarkD]

The other tricky problem with AZ is that for political reasons Alitalia had to maintain two hubs: one in Rome FCO, for the administrative capital, and one in Milan Malpensa, serving the economic capital.Just because AZ can't do it (now) doesn't mean it can't be done.

There's 660km by road between Fiumicino and Malpensa - that's further than the distance between Air Canada's Montreal and Toronto hubs with a lot more people in between. AF-KLM should be fairly well versed now in how to square that circle given they collectively operate two hubs spaced by 483km road distance.

[stalling attitude]

And you just know that Ezy and Ryr are sitting there waiting to make a move when the time is right and take on more Italian domestic routes.

[beachbumflyer]

What would be the name of the resulting company? :confused:

[chiglet]

"RoyalFrenchItalian" Airlines...KFA [think about it]
watpiktch

[PAXboy]

GobonaStickWhere the management has really failed has been in telling the unions to go and screw themselves. When your airline's on its knees, you have nothing to lose by taking a tough stand against the unions.Don't forget that there has always been a large percentage owned by the government. THEY were not going to risk losing voters by allowing the mgmt to make people redundant. Many Italian organisations, particularly government ones, still provide a job for life.

The Italians have yet to learn the uncomfortable lessons that other European countries have been learning for the past 25 years.

[fleigle]

This sounds like a "takeover" made in hell, totally different mind-sets, I wouldn't rush out and buy any shares...

[fastener]

BA tried to buy KLM and were blocked in the courts as the merged airline would "have a monopoly" on certain routes. AF have never made a huge profit but were able to buy KLM. This was never blocked and now they are after Alitalia. Whose cash are they spending buy other airlines and why are they not stoped?

[SOPS]

Ahhh...I hate to be the one to break the bad news fastener, but the AF-KLM group is the largest airline, by revenue, in the world. The last quarter result showed a profit of 311 million euros.

Alitalia is a basket case..and nobody else wants it. If AF does not take it, then in the very near future there will be no Alitalia left for anyone to buy.

[fastener]

From 1990 to 1997 AF lost 21.6 billion francs. The return to profit without loosing staff etc seems a bit of a miracle to me. But then I'm not a French accountant. KLM/BA merge was oposed on the grounds that the combined airline would be too big. So how big is the af/KLM combo? I know that the merged airline is very successful but looking at other airlines profits they must have stashed an awful lot of cash under the matress to be able to buy another airline a few years after returning to profit in 97.

[Otterman]

Fastner: The BA / KLM thing (the last one was a third try) never got to any court. KLM wasn’t a basket case, it was aware that in the long run it needed to belong to one of the three large groupings in Europe, as their previous attempts to bring about a fourth large grouping failed. Among them a coming together with Alitalia (which cost KLM more than 280 million Euros). The two companies went their own way after about a year, mainly because the Dutch couldn’t make the moves that needed to be made to turn Alitalia around. So within the Air France/KLM there is a lot of expertise on what ails Alitalia (almost everything), and what needs to be done to get to grips with it (a lot).

BA wanted to do what the Anglo-Saxon companies do when they take-over a company, which is rape and pillage, extract maximum value from day one. This cost was too high for KLM (it wasn’t destitute or desperate). Air France gave KLM certain guarantees, which gave KLM confidence in the new company and decided to let themselves be bought by Air France. In the new company KLM represents 1/3 of the turnover, Air France 2/3. KLM’s share of the profit is 60%. Air France did not have to invest one penny in KLM. Air France was in profit from day one, as it was a pure stock transaction.

I think BA might be a bit sorry they were unwilling to provide the same guarantees to KLM. Their European strategy is unclear (basically they have to acquire Iberia now, or really be left at the margins), and their main hub will see a whole slew of new competitors flying to the USA soon. It’s answer it to piss off its pilots by trying to bypass them while starting a new division to fly from mainland Europe. Terminal four will become an exclusive Skyteam terminal from October, 2008. BA only controls 38% of all slots at Heathrow. Which is about half the percentage that the other large airlines control at their main hubs in Europe.

I am far from certain Air France/KLM will be able to take over Alitalia. The unions might run it into the ground to prevent the takeover. But even that would be better than leaving the subsidized mess that Alitalia has basically always been alive, distorting the aviation landscape.

[Otterman]

Any buyout of KLM required the permission of the Dutch government. BA wasn’t able to obtain it, once again because of what they wanted to do to KLM was not worth the price. The minor adjustment in capacity (mostly across the Atlantic) was not a breaking point. And certainly not any different than what happened during the Air France buyout. Air France/KLM had to reduce capacity between France and Holland, and give up slots at both CDG and AMS to competitors to provide these services.

Air France did not pay a penny for KLM. The transaction was purely a stock deal (valuing KLM at around 840 million Euros). Air France proved themselves to be more visionary than BA (amazing, but true).

So let’s be clear any BA/KLM deal was never opposed by any regulatory agency, because no official deal was ever put forward.

[fendant]

The CEO of AF/KLM announced today that due to the stubborness of the AZ unions the deal is unlikely to go through ( which seems to me the political expression of a walk away). This would be the 2nd airline in Europe ( after Sabena ) killed by irresponsible unions.

Bye Bye Alitalia, I am sure you will not be missed!

Frank

[planecrazi]

Those unions are getting nowhere now.

Alitalia takeover "in jeopardy", Air France-KLM boss says (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i-v3o4I_UcokD97Dvck_f8BO-PlA)
4 hours ago

ROME (AFP) — A plan by Air France-KLM to take over failing Alitalia is "in jeopardy" after the breakdown of talks with the Italian carrier's unions, the European giant's chairman Jean-Cyril Spinetta said Wednesday.
"It's true the agreement is in jeopardy," Spinetta told the Italian news agency ANSA, adding, however: "I'm still confident."
The Air France-KLM boss was to meet early Wednesday with Alitalia leaders to discuss renewing contact with the unions, whose green light is necessary for the deal to go forward.
Talks on Tuesday with the nine unions were tense and ended in disagreement.
The main unions issued a joint statement saying they had a "very critical judgement" of the talks and argued that the negotiating timetable was unrealistic -- Air France-KLM wants an agreement by the end of March.
While the European giant says it plans to cut 1,600 jobs from the 11,000-strong work force, the unions fear job losses of up to 7,000.
Spinetta reportedly warned on Tuesday that his company could walk away from the deal, accepted Monday by the Italian government.
"We are certainly not obliged to acquire Alitalia," Spinetta said, according to a labour leader who was present at the talks.
Italy's outgoing centre-left government on Monday approved the acquisition of the state's 49.9 percent stake through a share swap of one Air France-KLM share for every 160 Alitalia shares.
That values the Italian airline at 140 million euros (218 million dollars).
Tuesday's talks at Alitalia headquarters began shortly after protesters outside the building clashed with police, leaving one demonstrator slightly injured..
Some 350 demonstrators took part in the protest including employees of AZ Servizi, the maintenance unit that would be shut down under the takeover deal.
A second demonstration was staged at Rome's Fiumicino airport.

[md4490]

...do not be so sure that Alitalia is a "goner"... Unions are tough but not stupid...they will find a way out..the painless the better...the situation is made even more complex by the oncoming political elections..being a "flag carrier" Alitalia has always been steered by politicians and now nobody is willing to take the helm..too risky so close to election day (13 apr)...so I guess that will have to wait a bit longer to know if AZ is going to be a sitting duck or a phoenix....:cool: As for the 500 pilots...I do not think they going to be a problem for young students...if they are going to sack me (az Cpt.) I'll look elsewhere for a job not in europe...:ok:

[mgTF]

guys, consider that in less than a month italy is voting, and all parties are interested more than ever to that big juicy cake called ALITALIA!!

[the bald eagle]

Not to worry....Easy Jet will av em :E:E:E

[papazulu]

This would be the 2nd airline in Europe ( after Sabena ) killed by irresponsible unions.

3rd one then, you are missing SWISSAIR...:E

Bye Bye Alitalia, I am sure you will not be missed!

As above, farewell Swissair. Perhaps some AZ-related families will miss it as well as those of Swissair that were not contemplated in the aerobatics that turned a regional into a flagship carrier...:*

PZ :ok:

[J.O.]

The food in either city is fine with me. I'd just rather avoid flying on AZ to get there. The union intransigence is not limited to takeover negotiations. It also affects they way they provide service to their customers. Personally, I've never felt like aything other than an inconvenience to most of them.

[parabellum]

The timing is all wrong. AZ traditionally go on strike over the Easter holiday.;)

[Stop Stop Stop]

3rd one then, you are missing SWISSAIR

Is Switzerland in Europe then? :)

[lexxity]

The continent yes, the EU then obviously not. I suspect the poster was refering to the continental area when they posted.

[sekant]

Swissair did not go down because of the unions but, quite the contrary, because of totally inept management.

The strategy of the management was to gain access to the EU market by buying companies finding themselves in deficit/debt and turning them around (was dubbed the hunter strategy). Swissaire arrogance was such that it believed that it could turn a company like Sabena that never made a profit in its entire life in a cash cow in a matter of months.

[RobertS975]

Obviously, for AZ to continue to exist, there will have to be some "pain" for the union employees as well as management. The airline is supposed to be a business, not a charity.

If the unions foul up this AF/KL deal, I would classify it as a murder-suicide, with the company being murdered whilst the unions commit suicide.

It seems that they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity!

[Skydrol Leak]

Unions are a legalized type of mafia in a way. They won't back up unless you back up.I think it it is a pitty for Italians to sold their flag carrier for 108 millions to French and Dutch. What a waste!
Well,they can not even take care of their garbage down in Napoli so how do you expect them to run a national airline for god's sake?
Just being sarcastic,that's all...

[pasoundman]

neil armstrong
the Italian unions will never accept the job cuts.

That'll send a clear message out. One that says "don't employ Italians". That's how a free market works.

[pasoundman]

J.O.
Personally, I've never felt like aything other than an inconvenience to most of them.

Sounds like a match in heaven with AF then !

[main_dog]

Bye Bye Alitalia, I am sure you will not be missed!


That'll send a clear message out. One that says "don't employ Italians".

Ahhh, can't you just feel the warmth and solidarity of the pilot brotherhood...

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[CEJM]

Media tycoon Silvio Berlusconi has just announced that he will veto the take over of Alitalia by AF/KLM if he wins the elections in April.

Here is the full article.

http://www.hemscott.com/news/latest-news/item.do?newsId=62077309856145

[autofeather]

Good luck to you all if KLM are involved in any way. They will asset strip and shut down what is of no value...

[Me Myself]

As an Air France pilot I really couldn't care less for Alitalia. I need them like a hole in my head and as far as I'm concerned Berlusconi can have the whole lot.
You won't find many AF employees who were happy with the deal going through.
Frankly tough luck for Alitalia as you couldn't find a more decent boss. Mr Spinetta is the best chairman this airline ever had.
I find the french way of dealing really difficult at times but I certainly wasn't ready for the italians.
Berlusconi is going to burry Alitalia into the ground, cockyness is sweet when campaining, different ball game when actually running the country.
Speaking of adds in Flight Intl', don't hold your breath, unless you speak fluent french you don' t stand a chance. As to DEC............put that bottle of malt back on the table.

[captplaystation]

I can see all the Air France pilots now, busy buying holiday homes in Italy, hoping they can register early enough to vote Silvio in.
So what will be the new callsign of Air Mafia then ? ( " I have the backing of some very important banks" Hmmn. . . .) we already have "Frankie" what next ?

[PAXboy]

It does not matter who wields the sword at AZ - someone is going to have to. It might be AF/KLM; it might Air One; it might the official Receiver when they go bankrupt;

Or ... Berlusconi gets in and changes all the laws in his favour (done it before) and saves them to enable the state to continuing employing people in a non-commercial way. That has happened before in countries all around the globe, not just Italy.

AZ is a basket case and if the state want to pay people to do non-jobs, then they are entitled to do so.

[172driver]

AZ is a basket case and if the state want to pay people to do non-jobs, then they are entitled to do so.

As long as they don't use OUR tax money (via the EU) for it.

[testpanel]

Do any you guys know that Alitalia has an office, 13-15 people working there; only to think of names for new/future airplanes?:ugh:
And why are they loosing money everyday..........:rolleyes:

I am very sorry for the people involved but aviation today is not anymore what the italian make you and me (and esp. themselves) think it is.

Sell it and get your stuff together!

[MPH]

And an other office that decides what music should be heard O/B!!!
I think that it´s also something like 10 people!!:O

[toomuchradiations]

me myself, you are just despicable, your nationalistic comments are pointless and if i were you i'd concentrate on improving your english on the R/T before commenting any further.

[captplaystation]

Don't have a problem with your comments Me Myself.
Quite obviously you don't want your employers current profits drained by a bunch of no-hopers.
Your operating language in the cockpit is French, so that French fluency is taken as an essential.
No legacy carrier takes DEC, so nothing unusual there.
I am impressed with the amount of cash AF are spending on advertising in "Flight International", 1, sometimes 2 half page ads a week for the last , what, 6 or more weeks ?
If French is a must it's a big campaign for an English language magazine, are they really that short, or is a Berlitz course included now in the induction training.Or perhaps you are allocated a nice hostess during your 9 month induction to learn " on the pillow" ? well it's a nice idea, non ?
Don't know how you upset the previous poster so much. . . and to think I am the one normally accused of being Francophobic. . . . Phah.

[planeenglish]

Metaphorically,

AZ Unions are throwing fits in the toy aisle but mommy is already at the check-out. So now the Unions are throwing the women, children and old folks off the bow of the Titanic.
:D:D


PE

[Me Myself]

too much radiation. nothing to do with nationalistic pride but plain good sense. I'm working for a money making airline where, by and large, people know the job.
Why should I relish the prospect of working with a bunch of clowns. I've had to deal with Alitalia ground engineers while on short haul and I got to be afraid, very afraid.
It's taken us time and hurdles to get where we are and I am not in the mood to to live in a mad house ever again.
My R/T is just fine mate, Mum is english and it actually was the first language I got to hear as a toddler. So, does " take a hike " sound like a reasonable suggestion ??
Captainpalystation. As far as I'm concerned, the Yorhshire Dales are where I would buy a home. Don't like pasta. My right isn't it ? As to Flight Intl add, who knows, maybe there are pilots out there who speak french. We are a little bit over 4000, a handfull of non native among us who, for one reason or another, managed to learn french and then join. No problem with that.
Should anyone want to join KLM, Lufthansa, SAS, they'd have to speak the language. Swiss take over by Lufthansa ? Everyone speaks german. Just the way it is and rightly so. Call that despicably nationalistic, coming from a Pom sitting on his toush in Brighton ( too much radiation )is a real treat !! It's just the way it is and is going to be, cuz, sure as egg, we ain't learning italian.
That joining AF might be part of the deal for some AZ pilots is the best joke I ever heard.
I think it's more like " They're welcome to go for the interview " and probably get axed because of language problems.
It's one thing not many people seem to understand on this site. Not very many AF employees are happy about the deal even being talked about. I think mainly because it reminds us of what we were 15 years ago and that we came inches from meeting AZ's fate. Just like AZ we were given a lot of money by the government bending EEC rules a notch, BUT unlike AZ we didn't blow it and WE staff , turned this airline around knowing very well we wouldn't get lucky twice. This is still very much in everyone's mind and we don't want to go through that again.
This is management wet dream and maybe, from the business point of view, it's a good one, at least on paper. Our experience as flight crews is altogether very different in our dealings in various italian ports.
I totally respect AZ employee's wish to stay all italian and I support them with all my heart.
To finish. Not very many people seem to remember that AF/KLM merger got stalled for a short while because of Commandatore Berlusnoni's pressure on the french government to be part of the deal. Chairman Spinetta wasn't at all in favour and said AZ would have to get its act together before any talk of merging could take place. That was only 4 years ago. Now he wants the exact opposite, most probably because AZ is such a success.
Berlusconi is only using AZ as a step to Prime ministership and he'll drop them like a hot potatoe the minute he is appointed.
Make no mistake, someone, wether british, german or french will come to scoop the remains once the party is over.

[PAXboy]

172driverAs long as they don't use OUR tax money (via the EU) for it.Oh for sure, yes. If they can find ways around to use 'local' cash then fine.

planeenglish Your post is magnificent and, given your location, may have seen things close up. For the hope of saving some jobs, I trust that the take over occurs. AZ have managed to last longer than expected (likewise OA) but it shows how powerful was the 1950s~70s era of the airline as representing the country. The USA has the same problem in allowing Chapter 11 to be used to 'save' the carriers. Now, at long last, it looks as if they are going to be sensible and start merging before they start folding.

Around the globe, in mergers and failures, there is a lot more pain to come. Particularly in the recession that is now affecting the US and UK (not yet official but read the financials) and other countries may also be affected as the US economy slides down the scale. Airlines are going to be in trouble and AZ had better take this offer whilst it can.

[Me Myself]

Do I remember mate !! It wasn't a good time.There were hoodles of french pilots looking for jobs and you guys were brought in to g " grab " expansion as the then chairman said. They were so short sighted that they had not forseen expansion. As to the french test :)))) Give me a break, the whole thing was a farce and at any rate it was a short scheme for training purpose. They all went home to everyone's satisfaction.
But what am I fretting about, you're saying no anyway. Where can I register to vote for Berlu ?

[Me Myself]

Acrid attitude ??? Frankly, I wish you all the luck in the world...........in Italy. I do not take pleasure in seeing people lose their jobs
I just do not fancy or trust your ways. We've had that too long and we seem to be heading in the right direction now. KLM is far more toward my natural leanings when it comes to work.
Even the few italians who work for us don't want to see this happen. What does that tell you ?
Nothing personal mate, just don't want to see a repeat of 93 and there are enough able young men in France to drive airplanes. The thing is not to pretend " Dear me !! We didn't see expansion coming " just to shop outside.

[main_dog]

Why should I relish the prospect of working with a bunch of clowns.

I just do not fancy or trust your ways.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

How endearing, Me Myself: sorry but you are coming across a tad bigoted (an unfortunate combination of your two nations' worst characteristics?)

As you said yourself, you AF fellow-pilots were in the exact same boat not so long ago... you were fortunate enough to have a government/management smart enough to bail you out and set you on the straight and narrow; AZ on the other hand have had a succession of governments/CEOs who made monumentally disastrous decisions, piled damage upon damage and then waltzed all the way to the bank.

As a case in point compare Spinetta's retribution with that of AZ's last 3/4 CEOs. Yep, they were making well over TWICE AS MUCH as the CEO of your very profitable and much bigger airline... as a matter of fact they were pocketing almost as much as Willie Walsh, Wolfgang Mayrhuber and Jean-Cyril PUT TOGETHER :ugh:! Now the employees, as always, will pay the price.

By the way I worked for those "clowns" for a number of years, and the truth is that they are a very bizarre combination of an extremely professional airline from an operational point of view (up in the sharp end, in the training dept., and frankly most of the ground techs) and a stodgy bureaucratic nightmare of a 1960s ministry in all other aspects... you may recognize this from AF 15 years back, non?

Don't like pasta.

Believe me most AZ employees don't feel like eating baguettes either, it's just that the alternative is... going hungry.

[Me Myself]

" you were fortunate enough to have a government/management smart enough to bail you out and set you on the straight and narrow; AZ on the other hand have had a succession of governments/CEOs who made monumentally disastrous decisions, piled damage upon damage and then waltzed all the way to the bank. "

Main dog, you sound like an old school master of mine. Very refreshing.
The main difference however when we were in.........well, basically the poo, was that we didn't march down the streets to claim jobs elsewhere. I can only imagine the kind of welcome we would have been met with.
We, like all the rest of the staff, just ploughed through very aware that no second chance was around the corner. As you also said, we were also blessed with a CEO name Christian Blanc who was ballsy enough to face the government and get the " political " freedom he absolutly needed.
Spinetta followed in a very different style, none the less efficient.
Your analogy with 60's burocracy is spot on.
As to pilots ?? Well, it ain't like before as the saying goes. My salary has continuously increased, along with my flight hours and I think we kind of find ourselves in the position australian pilots ( aren't you one of those 767's ? ) found themselves after 89, flying more.........making more '( very trendy in France nowadays ).

Why should AZ be part of a deal and fast tracked into AF when AOM/Air Liberté pilots had to go through all the red tape to join ??? Only a handfull did. The others are scattered around.
We've been through 2 french mergers and one of them was a real headache. Don't need another and a cross border one, thank you very much !
We have enough university students to fill all the cadet programs in the world...........provided you start them in time !! And this is the very issue here.
I know only one system and it goes as follows :
- Meet requirements ( language, licence.........whatever the employer sees fit ). Where you come from is totally irrelevant to me as long as the same rule applies to everyone.
- Go through the selection process like everyone does.
- Join at the bottom of the pile, like everyone does when lucky enough to get the job.
This gives us, algerian, belgian ( french and dutch speaking ), italian, english, irish, sprinkle of swiss, and last but not least one japanese ..................pilots.
Cabin crew ?? Austrian, german, dutch, italian, japanese, english, US, and certainly others I haven't met.

Isn't that the way it went for the few Ansett who joined QF.
Isn't that the way it goes for most of the airlines in the world ???
I'd be very curious to see BA making a bid for AZ.

Call me bigot, I take it as a compliment. Where I come from, we look after our own first.

I Ford

Thanks to Google, I did my homework and indeed found an italian article mentioning CEO Spinetta throwing in the rescue of 180 AZ pilots including " fast carreer opportunities ". Do I need to tell you no one here has a clue of what he is promising ?
I don't know what he means by fast and, more important, what you guys make of it but there will be a hoodle of other people who will have a say on what " fast " means.
From what I understand, a little bit over a 1000 union pilots seem to be calling the shots for the rest of the airline, that's a way to win friends.

Odly enough, French ALPA is extremely silent on the matter and this not a good sign, specially before union elections taking place very soon.

[BRE]

MeMyself: "Swiss take over by Lufthansa ? Everyone speaks german."



I don't know if German is the official operating language in the cockpits of LH (probably not), but even so, your arguement is skewed:

- To the best of my knowledge, Swiss is still being operated as a separate airline, and there is no crew mixing.
- Not all Swiss pilots are native speakers of German.
- The differences between Swiss and German are quite substantial, and communication between educated individuals can break down over unexpected points. I would rather not depend on it to work in a safety critical enviroment.

[DBate]

I don't know if German is the official operating language in the cockpits of LH (probably not)

It is.

Concerning your other points:

- To the best of my knowledge, Swiss is still being operated as a separate airline, and there is no crew mixing.
- Not all Swiss pilots are native speakers of German.

That is absolutely correct.

Finally:

- The differences between Swiss and German are quite substantial, and communication between educated individuals can break down over unexpected points. I would rather not depend on it to work in a safety critical enviroment.

As far as I know, there are several Swiss pilots (Swiss nationals i.e., not pilots employed by Swiss International Airlines) working at the different subsidiaries of Lufthansa. Works quite well, no problems so far...

[geriatrix]

I too was lucky enough to work for these "clowns" for many many years, and agree completely with main-dog's comments. An extraordinary mixture of dedicated and technically able people mixed with bureaucratic buffoons, who were just there because they had some connections.

Despite this, I enjoyed it greatly, and also leant a lot about swift damage limitation procedures... I think the BA lot at T5 could have done with some help from AZ..... :-)

And I hope with all my heart that AZ survives somehow...

[Me Myself]

D Bate

I usually fly Swiss when going off skiing and I've witnesed several times F/O's, obviously in training, flying with a " Swiss " training captain.
That they're operated separatly is a fact.

Mr Spinetta once said AF and KLM should be operated as 2 different airlines and that mixing pilots was not only out of the question but a very bad idea. Why shouldn't this apply to AZ ? Cultural differences are huge make no mistake. No common language here either.
Again had management done things in time, we would have cadet programs rollling at full speed. In a country of 60 Million people with a high rate of unemployement among university graduates, don't tell me we need 180 pilots from outside.

Quote:
- The differences between Swiss and German are quite substantial, and communication between educated individuals can break down over unexpected points. I would rather not depend on it to work in a safety critical enviroment.

Precisely my point.

"I think the BA lot at T5 could have done with some help from AZ..... :-) "

Yeah, sure, and Milan and Rome are state of the art hubs !! :))):}


Trust me, I too wish AZ to survive.

[BRE]

"As far as I know, there are several Swiss pilots (Swiss nationals i.e., not pilots employed by Swiss International Airlines) working at the different subsidiaries of Lufthansa. Works quite well, no problems so far..."


No doubt. It is quite easy for Swiss and Germans to adapt and avoid the pitfalls after some exposure. However, throwing a crew together randomly might in some rare cases result in misunderstandings.

[Me Myself]

Forgive the pigeon english, google translation from a french article found in " Challenge " most probably 2005 or /06 since Raffarin is named as Prime Minister.
You'd have to laugh your head off reading this.

".. Alitalia and Air France aim at "integration", in order to create "one great French-Italian company," said President of the Council Silvio Berlusconi in the company of French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin, at the conference press held at the Villa Madama, at the end of the seminar government Italo-French (January 25 in Rome).


Statements which echo those of Alitalia chairman Giancarlo Cimoli, who attended a meeting in parallel, with many industry players of the two countries. "It is desirable that the relationship with Air France are continuing - he said on the sidelines of the meeting. Once the company will be financially better off, it will carry more weight and may refer the alliance with KLM and Air France ".

Bravo, bravissimo Giancarlo !!! It now carries so much weight that it's sinking.

origninal article found here : http://www.achats-industriels.com/actualites/dossiers/212.asp

Nope D bate, it was last year and those young chaps were definitly in LH uniforms. But you're right, not exactly relevant to our case.

Now, let me poke the snake pit with a stick here :

" "one great French-Italian company "

Can anyone clarify ???

[DBate]

@ Me Myself

I usually fly Swiss when going off skiing and I've witnesed several times F/O's, obviously in training, flying with a " Swiss " training captain.
That they're operated separatly is a fact.Well, didn't say anything other than that they are operated seperately.

Concerning the FOs, I guess you mean some german FOs. They are either german guys who applied for Swiss International Airlines, and are trained there accordingly, by 'Swiss' captains of course,

OR

that happened about 2 to maybe 1 year ago. Lufthansa than had some of their new FO (coming straight from Lufthansa Flight Training School in Bremen) do typerating and linetraining at Swiss, and then a short conversion course back to Lufthansa procedures, as Lufthansa itself did not have enough training capacities while Swiss did. They might be doing that again as it worked quite well for both sides.

@ BRE

However, throwing a crew together randomly might in some rare cases result in misunderstandings.

Cannot disagree on that, and that is why they are operated seperately (apart from the exception mentioned above).

Anyway gentlemen, this is getting off topic.

[Me Myself]

OK i FORD

Yeah ! sure, and Rome is a state of the art hub. I ford, you really crack me up. Would you care to comment the result of my google search ?
What was there to move anyway ? What is important and that's why terminal 5 isn't really an issue for me, is the long term.
On this basis, let me tell you that brits have demonstrated far more reliability than you would ever do or ever have.
I am sorry to sound so harsh but reality sometimes is. The majority of people over here see this whole affair with anguish. It's taken time, a lot of hard work to gain enough credibility to make the KLM deal possible. If memory serves right, my dutch colleagues do not have sweet memories of the honeymoon with you.
My bet is that we can only expect trouble and wasted money.
Furthermore I am convinced that we are all the product of our environment, which means that I cannot believe that AZ pilots would be any different from the rest of the lot. Italian politic, pardon my french, sucks and the unbelievible show your parlamentarians made a few months back, spreading champagne, yelling like maniacs in parliament is only the reflection that nobody, absolutly nobody gives a s..t.
See, in english combination would refer to maths, cooking or cocktail making. Combinazzione however has a meaning I never want to contemplate " in the flesh ".
This is not what I want for AF or KLM for the matter. I don't want to see all our hardwork blown off to Mars and certainly not see young french boys and girls being tossed aside because you guys negociated a foul deal in which we had no part.
I know that in this day and age speaking your mind is not fashionable and very fast branded as racist or whatever bullock. I am just telling you what I think and what a lot of my colleagues think. Likes and dislikes are as far as I know are all too normal.
Do I want to see you eradicated from the face of the earth ?? Good heavens no . I really hope, for everybody's benefit that AZ will, in one form or another, survive.
One can only be taken by the beauty of Rome or Florence. Italy is the birthplace of arts, no doubt. Your cuisine is exquisite and offers more variaty than ours. All in all, fantastic place...............for a week end.
When it comes to work it's nogo and this is what is at stake. So spare me the " hatred " " racist " bable. We're talking Euros and work where all the above mentioned qualities are of no concern.
If you are honest enough, answer the following :
If you were in our shoes, what would you think ?
I can hardly imagine a profitable AZ ( just for sake of the example here ) where you would welcome 180 pilots from abroad, specially coming from an airline that would have demonstrated its total inability to get its act together.
You would, no doubts, be extremely upset.
That's exactly what we are, extremely upset.

[main_dog]

Main dog, you sound like an old school master of mine. Very refreshing.

Er... don't quite know what to make of this... British schoolmaster... doesn't quite sound like a compliment :uhoh:

The main difference [omissis] was that we didn't march down the streets to claim jobs elsewhere.

I don't know what you've read, but no-one in AZ wants to go work for the French, unless the alternative is out on the street. No-one is clamouring for your French jobs, and yes lord knows the French are protectionistic about their job market (which is fine, I just wish Italian companies were the same way, it would be fairer towards Italian pilots).

What AZ pilots ARE marching about is Spinetta's rather harsh proposal... over 27% of aircrew grounded, which is a much higher figure than they had initially been led by AF to believe. What AZ pilots WANT (when they're not too busy bickering amongnst themselves) is our own Blanc or Spinetta, and a government wise enough to let him get on with his job... although I fear it is ten or fifteen years too late for that.

What AZ employees ARE upset about (even ex-employees like me) is seeing this once-glorious airline trodden into the mud and dying, while vultures like AF-KLM circle overhead (believe me no offence intended, I realize modern aviation is a dog-eat-dog world).

In this context your comments come across as, er, uncaring (if not downright snide and antagonistic). If we're going to start hurling nationalistic epithets and jingoistic mud-slinging, well, the French have the odd thing to not be too proud about as well, non mon pot? We don't expect warm fuzzy feelings and a get-well-soon card from our fellow pilots from across the alps, but don't appreciate being kicked when we're down either.

Once again, remember you were in the exact same boat very recently... you were lucky to get away without getting your feet wet. Now the image I get is of you throwing people trying to climb into the boat back into the water.

But then again, I'm a hopeless idealist to expect anything else: with pilots it's always about Me Myself and I, isn't it?

Good luck to all involved. :ok:

[Me Myself]

As far as I'm concerned LH can have you. I don't think however they deserve this kind of hardship.

Very interesting post Maindog. First, schoolmaster was refering to your somehow lecturing style. I never had the caning type anyway.

Vultures ?? No punt taken. No one, trust me no one is happy about the whole affair. Least off all to see AZ pilots gutted. I haven't found many AF employees who were happy about the deal and we sure as hell would prefer to stay away. The whole thing smells nothing but trouble.
KLM buyout was made on equal terms. It is/ was a fine airline and quite frankly, given our past track record I was the first surprised it took place.
AZ is tits up and that's a totally different ball game.........in management eyes. We just don't want to be dragged in, period.

Let me tell you one thing about Blanc. Pilots were not at all happy about the bloke. We had a culture or rather the lack of it that made us think the past could go on forever. We also had our bunch of buraucratic lunies who were the first to go by the way.
Nevertheless the guy got result right away getting money despite Brussel. He also organised a referendum that bypassed the usual union channels and that was a brillant idea. The deal was " You either do with me and my plan or I walk. I've got no time to waste "
Everyone, I mean not only pilots, everyone in the compagny had a say and saying no became a huge responsability that pilots didn't dare to take. Brillant ! No bickering, no bargaining, just the full of testo stuff.
It worked because the french governement realized the country could not do without a strong airline and that's the reason why they cut Blanc a lot of slack/. Italian politicians are just a bunch of bufoons. I was watching the news tonight and it was all about Berlusconi. What a pathetic sight. Give me 10 Gordon Brown, or Kevin Rudd..........and half a Sarkozy instead.

AZ may have once been a fine airline, but someone blew it at some stage.
Like I said above, I would be a lot happier if LH or BA chose to go for it and we stayed away.

As to Me Myself, you need a bit of movie buff enlightment. It is only the titel of a wonderfull australian movie with Rachel Griffith, wonderfull aussie actress. Yes, I have a life outside this lunatic farm.

[Longhitter]

Reading the papers and all of the above there are a few things that amaze me. I am not surprised AF is eager to buy AZ, they're after a big piece of market and AZ is the way to tap into it. It seems only logical that they want the company streamlined as quick as possible, AF is not in it to sponsor obviously redundant jobs.

First: I am astonished at the attitude of not only the Italian politicians but also the unions. I can see why they feel their back is against the wall, but they have played a major part in bringing the company where it is now. It's partly your own fault, so stop pointing fingers at everybody else. It's going to be a bitter pill to swallow, but AF is your absolute best bet. Trust no politicians!

Second: the AF chaps bigmouthing their Italian colleagues should take a good look at AZ. AF's (unfairly defended) home-market monopoly is slowly crumbling away. In the very near future AF will have to compete with foreign operators and locos. Costcutting will have to take place because moneywasting is something AF does particularly well. You've learned to be big, now learn to be efficient and customer-friendly.

Good luck to everybody!

[Me Myself]

" AF's (unfairly defended) home-market monopoly is slowly crumbling away. In the very near future AF will have to compete with foreign operators and locos. Costcutting will have to take place because moneywasting is something AF does particularly well. You've learned to be big, now learn to be efficient and customer-friendly."

Longhitter

As we all know the UK is a wide open market. :} You know, TGV isn't exactly new here, it's been going more than 20 years, but then, train, I mean fast reliable on time trains isn't something you'd be acustomed to. Competition with train has been going exactly that long.
Plane will be losing against train, it's just the nature of things and this doen't worry all that much. This is why we're investing in trains to ferry pax to CDG to fill our long haul flights.
Foreign competitors ?? What's BA, LH, Easy, Ryan ...........etc ?? if not ..........foreign...........competitors. ???
Wasting money ??? I wished !!!
Efficient and customer friendly : Well our flight left LHR to LAX yesterday absolutly chocker with BA disastisfied customers.
You know as well asI do........, no, you don't, that customer's moods are very fleeting. One lost bag and they swear never to travel with you ever again.

[main_dog]

Well, perhaps you were being lectured... perhaps you had it coming? Glad to hear no canes were involved though. ;)

Furthermore I am convinced that we are all the product of our environment, which means that I cannot believe that AZ pilots would be any different from the rest of the lot. Italian politic, pardon my french, sucks...

This is the point where we disagree: you are right, the current crop of Italian politicians is a disgrace to our country. Sadly, it is us Italians who have to live with the consequences, day in day out. HOWEVER, claming that all Italians must be as incapable/dishonest/inefficient as their government is at best simplistic, at worst it is a very prejudiced, ignorant viewpoint.

There are plenty of conscientious, capable, intelligent and hard-working individuals here as well; sadly none of them in AZ management and precious few in government. Last time I checked Ducati, Piaggio, Ferrari, Fincantieri, Alenia or any other number of hugely successful internationally acclaimed brands were not French... did I miss something?

It is particularly irritating for AZ pilots (or AZ-trained such as myself), to be billed as "clowns" when they might not even have a job next month. Frankly from what I've seen of AF's operation and that of other major world airlines (I work for another one now) AZ pilots are "right up there" with the rest of the world's top legacy-carrier flight deck crew (can't speak for LOCOs but I'm sure there is plenty of talent there as well).

Now, enough of that, and back on-topic: yes, I fear that if four or five hundred well-trained and experienced pilots suddenly flood the market as a result of this whole debacle, it will be bad news for pilots the world over... :(

[corsair]

AZ employees are between a rock and hard place. Maybe the AF option is the best bet. If AZ goes bust, vultures like Ryanair and Easyjet will step in and hire some of the pilots on considerably worse terms.

[captplaystation]

Amazing how anyone can think you can't run a cockpit with different nationalities / cultures.
With a few exceptional upsets, most of which appear to have had no language-orientated factors, Ryanair seem to get by with God knows how many nationalities. Yes I know, many of them can be less than Level4 on the radio, but that is mainly our vast intake of "newbees", and the same assesment of RT ability could be applied to any number of legacy and non-legacy carriers I share the airwaves with.
It is really very simple, if everyone adopts, and sticks rigidly to one language, and likewise to the SOP's, it really works just fine.
Of course I couldn't be so partisan to suggest what language could, and certainly in a mixed race ATC environment SHOULD ALWAYS be spoken.
Incidentally, it is no surprise that AF are proposing that many pilot's are laid off, the dead wood that makes these decisions always look after their own, don't suppose the pen-pushers in AZ will have too much to worry about.

[captplaystation]

Corsair, do you seriously think that any low cost "vultures" are likely to offer the terms/conditions and myriad benefits of a state subsidised heavily unionised carrier.
Don't worry, like Sabena/ Swissair and one day the Olympics etc of this world, the pilots of AZ ( as indeed one day further into the future will AF BA et al ) will have to join the rest of us, in what has unfortunately become the "real world" for this sadly de-valued profession.
When the champagne and caviar runs out, you either starve, or satisfy yourself with bread and ( self provided) water.
Sad I know, but the good times won't last forever, even for those of you in the rarified ambience of a legacy carrier. Enjoy / protect it as long as you can, it ain't coming back into fashion any time soon.

[fiftypercentn1]

Me myself, i would be very careful speaking the way you are in this forum.
remember that "the wheel spins" for everyone. I wouldn t be so cocky.
Plus to be honest i could understand your outstanding confidence if we were talking of BA, but it's AF we re talking about..enjoy your baguettes.

[Longhitter]

Me Myself:

Maybe AF service is better than BA's at the moment, but I doubt it. As I recall AF is also high up there in the lost-bag-hitlist. Not to mention the amount of strikes your clients have to put up with. At the moment they can't do anything else but grin and bear it, because alternatives are few. You should know what I am talking about when I discuss upcoming competition. The French government will, of course, make very sure that SNCF (French railway company) and AF do not hurt eachother (big government stake in both of them). I am talking about routes where trains are not a real option and where locos will have a field day beating AF on price. Just look at the steady orange advance in places like ORY, CDG and NCE. That is where your competition is coming from, not the trains owned by the same government! Of course the standard French reaction of sticking your head in the sand in the face of inevitable and necessary change will work in the short term, but rather than pi**ing on your Italian colleagues you would be much better off constructively supporting your boss in the process of tapping into the huge market that Italy is. Your attitude towards AZ makes it much more understandable that the AZ pilot union is weary of you lot...

[Me Myself]

" Last time I checked Ducati, Piaggio, Ferrari, Fincantieri, Alenia or any other number of hugely successful internationally acclaimed brands were not French... did I miss something? "

Point taken. Didn't miss a thing. I can only afford a Piaggio 250 X9 though !:)


I'm sorry, I still remain convinced that we are the product of our environment. I never implied AZ pilots couldn't fly. What I am however implying is that the bad habits that make the very core of italian society are rooted everywhere which, in my view, includes AZ.
Are we that more vertuous ? well, actually no and this precisely why a lot of us don't want to be visited by ghosts from Xmas past...........ever.

As I said earlier, we have a few italians flying for us, tech and cabin and nothing they've told me is of a nature to make me change my mind. Even the most italian culture orientated people I know and trust me they worship the place and its culture, are more than reserved about the whole thing.
Maybe clowns is a bit strong of a word and I sincerely apologize. The way things are done overthere is all but reassuring. Having been in the same situation let me tell you that employees and employers were responsible. It can't be different with AZ.
Italian politicians are buffoons. The scene they gave the world to witness was insane and surely for a lot of italians, very humiliating. There is a way however, I think one calls that an election.
Instead of that they're just about to elect the worst buffoon ever. Understand who can.
We are from extremely different cultures, and most of all the very circumstances in which AZ pilots would be joining could only be with resentment. Bad start. We've experienced that in a very painfull local merger, we sure don't need another one.
Look, we didn't drive AZ to bankrupcy. Nor are we enjoying witnessing this bloody mess. We would rather have no part in it.

" Maybe AF service is better than BA's at the moment, but I doubt it. As I recall AF is also high up there in the lost-bag-hitlist. Not to mention the amount of strikes your clients have to put up with "

Dear me, longhitter, I must have been asleep all these months. No one keeps me posted. I went to work as usual and didn't see a thing. Ta mate !
Bags ??? Well, sorry to hit below the ( luggage ) belt, but it seems to me the pile of bags at T5 was of himalayan proportion last time I checked on Sky, but this is probably my eyesight.


" Me myself, i would be very careful speaking the way you are in this forum.
remember that "the wheel spins" for everyone. I wouldn t be so cocky."



Precisely !!!
Cocky would be enjoying witnessing this mess thinking this is all beneath me.
My point is " I'm all too aware of it all. I've already been in the abyss , don't want to go back there. "
PPrune wasn't around in 93 but by the sound of it, I have no doubt you would have been all fuzzy and very supportive of us..................er........wouldn't you ??

[F4F]

Oyez oyez, even the Brits need the Italians, or is it the other way round :ok:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7325723.stm

Europe: gigantic costly farce, we are all sad buffons :{


live 2 fly 2 live

[captplaystation]

Don't know whether to laugh or cry, about 8 yrs ago I used to pass through MXP regularly as SLF with AZ. Never had a bag quicker than 1hr, and they lost a baby-buggy which was never seen again.
I guess it got better in the intervening 8yrs, but the thought of the Italians helping anyone out of a mess tickles me a little.

[md4490]

...looks like no deal with AF...as of this evening at least...:confused:

[jouy31]

Alitalia chairman has resigned after the breakdown of talks between AF and Italian trade unions. The AZ board of directors will meet tomorrow to decide the next steps. :(

[er340790]

AF/KLM pulls out of talks.

No other bidders.

Emergency loan not allowed.

CEO resigned.

= Bankruptcy.

(What's Italian for 'I have a cunning plan'?)

[Me Myself]

Where did you guys hear that ???

[jouy31]

Among several sources, here is Bloomberg's report:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=acQRkJD6TRoA&refer=home

[md4490]

...well we (Italians) are kind of resourceful...AZ is the Flag Carrier (so far) and somehow somebody will find a way out of this mess...:ugh:..let's wait and see...:(

[J.O.]

The EU will bar your government from any type of bailout, and with AF/KLM's recent experience with your unions, it is highly unlikely that any other carrier will make an offer. That leaves your unions with really only one choice, IMHO.

[fendant]

MD4490,

it is now crystal clear that AZ is heading straight into bankruptcy, the only question is when this will happen. AZ is out of cash and out of hope ( except for some nationalistic daydreamers). Even the new government of Berlusconistan has no real chance of avoiding this. The little clown is totally dependent on the EU pouring Billions into Italy's South.

I would start floating my resumé in the European aviation industry. You are really lucky as the timing is (still) right to find a well paid job within Europe.
We always admired the AZ pilot corps for their good training schemes, for their flying skills and for their ability to navigate sucessfully the chaos. Good Luck, there are greener (and more solid) pastures close by.

Frank

[pasoundman]

On Wednesday, Economy Minister Tommaso Padoa-Schioppa said the only alternative to the Air France-KLM offer would be to put Alitalia into emergency administration.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7327762.stm

[757_Driver]

Another stunning victory for the leftie unionist mentality.
Instead of accepting the sad reality that 500 people may loose their jobs, the Alitalia unions have now ensured that almost everyone will loose theirs , and although they may get re-hired by whomever picks up the pieces, they will get re-hired without pensions / senioriy / benefits etc.
Bravo, Bravo

BA unions, Take note.

[Taxi2parking]

To quote the departed chairman "This company is cursed: only an exorcist can save it," - so now it's dark supernatural forces that are to blame! :ugh:

I have a large number of ex-Sabena workmates who described how the union was still outside picketing the company offices as the company slid into bankruptcy. I find it incredible that the AZ unions can't see that the same sad scenes are again going to be re-enacted. The EU won't allow the government to bail out the national flag carrier (the latter being a somewhat outdated concept by the way) and they will go bust. Now the union's job is to get the best deal for it's members BUT THIS WOULD be best achieved by some realism and a degree of compromise.


The alternative is to stick your head in the sand as the company goes down the pan.

[Me Myself]

From Longhitter

"Of course the standard French reaction of sticking your head in the sand in the face of inevitable and necessary change will work in the short term, but rather than pi**ing on your Italian colleagues you would be much better off constructively supporting your boss in the process of tapping into the huge market that Italy is. Your attitude towards AZ makes it much more understandable that the AZ pilot union is weary of you lot...
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=4018129)

Well, Longhitter, they were so weary indeed that they decided to commit collective suicide. That's wearyness carried to the extreme.
This just proves the point I have been trying to make for a couple of days. I'm not dancing around, trust me. Just feeling a tad relieved that we didn't tread on this hornet's nest.

Now, you've been elegant enough to mention bags, if memory serves right. Our motorways are flooded with trucks on their way to Italy which seems to be the only place where one will be able able to figure out what is what and whose. Hopefully their owners will be able to get them before they expire their last breath due to old age.

[BRE]

from the bbc article about bag sorting in Milan
"He estimated 10% of the bags would be transported 600 miles by lorry to Milan. "

He also did a very rough estimate of the distance, didn't he?

[johan_jnb]

to Silvio... hope you are satisfied and shoulder the blame in a few days...:mad:

to the Unions... may you rot in hell for allowing this to happen :D

Sad day indeed, convinced AZ will enter emergency admin shortly, such a shame that AZ and peoples pride and futures are so perversly intertwined with italian politics :ugh:

[ettore]

I have a large number of ex-Sabena workmates who described how the union was still outside picketing the company offices as the company slid into bankruptcy. I find it incredible that the AZ unions can't see that the same sad scenes are again going to be re-enacted. The EU won't allow the government to bail out the national flag carrier (the latter being a somewhat outdated concept by the way) and they will go bust. Now the union's job is to get the best deal for it's members BUT THIS WOULD be best achieved by some realism and a degree of compromise.

I couldn't agree more... The strategy of the worth leads to the worth, i.e. to bankruptcy. It's striking to read (a few post ago from Italy) that some can still believe that anyone could or would salvage the company, without getting ride of the rotten parts of the business and laying off a large trunk of the staff. Sorry about that, but that the very result of decade of politics, protection and union's policy.

[jetopa]

It seems to be official now, since German news agencies (www.tageschau.de (http://www.tageschau.de) and www.spiegel.de (http://www.spiegel.de)) are reporting that Mr. Spinetta effectively terminated further negotiations over the integration of Alitalia.

Apparently, the supervisory board has stepped back as a result of this.:D

I can imagine what's going to happen. 'Uncle Silvio' will take over (he will win the elections anyway, won't he?) and assume responsibility for saving an all Italian icon from 'hostile' forces and pump discretely some €€€ into it, ignoring a few EU regulations.:ok:

[md4490]

...it is not about money...it is all about politic (as it has always been)...if they want to bail us out they will... if not...then it will be more than 500 I'm afraid....:{

[jetopa]

You're probably right, this could become ugly. But nobody cares, apparently.:{

[Me Myself]

Bending a few EEC rules will be very easy for Silvio. He's made a fortune bending rules. Question is.........what for ???
Apparently AZ people have made a choice, their choice and that's only fair enough. Thing is they're going to have to.........er............live with it. Bad metaphor considering !
AF share rose 3,86 % reacting to the news.
The weeks to come will surely be interesting.

http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/actualites/opinions/3_questions_a/20080403.OBS8016/le_rachat_est_completement_enterre.html

[F4F]

Bending a few EEC rules...
yeah well, AZ could just copy AFs strategy of not too long ago :rolleyes:

live 2 fly 2 live

[F4F]

ooops, or was it Airbus :cool:

live 2 fly 2 live

[F4F]

Well, nationalist instinct have killed more than one brave man, let alone a failing company...

Flag carrier: great state of proudness behind those words... you guys are defending your country with heart and guts... times gone in a modern world!

Reading above messages really points to Europe as being only a sorry failure, surely not the united force it could be :(


live 2 fly 2 live

[Iver]

I think the arrogant Alitalia unions should go speak to their counterparts at Sabena. Whoops, Sabena is no longer viable. Get the point? Maybe Berlusconi can employ the former Alitalia pilots at his TV stations.

[fox niner]

Reading above messages really points to Europe as being only a sorry failure

Excuse me? A sorry failure? The European Union is doing exactly what it is supposed to do!

Mafia-style mismanagement and Italian rule-bending is not accepted any more. All over the world if a company runs out of money, it goes bankrupt. Why should it be any different in Italy?

[Me Myself]

[quote]yeah well, AZ could just copy AFs strategy of not too long ago [/ :rolleyes:
Absolutly, hence..........no problem or no problemo ? In that particular case it turned out to be worthwhile.


Reading above messages really points to Europe as being only a sorry failure, surely not the united force it could be :(



What has Europe to do with this ?? If maybe bar the italian governement from funding AZ.
Look, he problem with bending the rules is no problem provided it leads to a real future. In AZ's case it seems people absolutly refuse the loss of 1200 jobs over 11000,which,according to " reliable sources " should lead to saving 9000 jobs. if so, then screw the rules. Apparently, AZ unions seem to think they're going to have it both ways.

I would have liked to join a large and successful group like AF/KLM but our masters decided otherwise, for time being.
AZ is not going to go bankrupt, but I'm afraid it is not going to be let free soon either

I Ford. You can't be serious. Your masters were readily decided to set you free. No one, however, seemed to like the taste of the medecine, so we call in a new...........er...hell ! .bad metaphore again...........well, new master who, you ( not personal ) think is going to save the day. I hope for your sake he does but the mere fact AF share rose almost 4% today and AZ stopped being traded should tell you what kind of confidence " Old Ebeneze Scrooge " has in the plan.

[Dysag]

There's nothing in this for Sarkozy.
Culturally: AF + AZ = can get along. KL + AZ = you gotta be kidding. KLM have no say?
As long as there are people wanting to fly in and around Italy there'll be jobs for those carrying them. Too bad it won't be on Alitalia.
AZA/ANPAC has been on a suicide trip for 15 years, and when folks start talking "Flag Carrier" we can be sure they're out of touch.
I was close to Swissair. The airline that could never go bankrupt. AZA can and will. RIP Alitalia, but you will not be missed.

[set_default]

Who said SWISSAIR never packs up? By own painful experience I can tell that ignorance makes a complete airline go down the drain with no difficulty. At the current cash loss rate we may be only days away from the first fuel company asking for cash. And that will be the moment when things become really exciting.

[er340790]

“Alitalia and the politicians of Italy deserve its ignominious end. It will go into bankruptcy and both political parties will blame each other. The unions, most guilty of all, will say they had nothing to do with it.”


There, in a nutshell, you have it.

[Donkey497]

Fox Niner Wrote:

Excuse me? A sorry failure? The European Union is doing exactly what it is supposed to do!

Mafia-style mismanagement and Italian rule-bending is not accepted any more.

I'm sorry for this thread drift, but I can't take that comment seriously. The EU is probably the biggest collection of self interested individuals sponging off the populace of Europe and has become a haven for discredited politicians who in normal life would be serving prison terms for fraud but instead are on the gravy train for life with free first class travel, subsidised secondary housing and 100% index-linked pensions.

The EU was conceived as an arrangement between France & Germany in the post war years as a mechanism within the respective National Governments to dispasionately review the other's legislation and financial aid policies as a means to remove intentional barriers to intercountry trade, originally dealing principally with Iron, Coal & Steel.

Now instead of a being handled by the respective trade & finance ministries, we have a Parliament, A Commission, A Rapid Reaction Force & God alone knows how many Quango's each has spawned. Now we are shrtly to have a formal EU constitution & it appears a permanent presidency thrust down our throats to suit current political ends

It is a little publicised & little known fact, but also a damning indictment that the accounts for the European Commission have been unable to be published for more than five years as the auditors have been unable to complete their work due to what they have described as significant and unquantifiable levels of fraudulent transactions at all levels in each of the various versions of the accounts presented to them for their approval.

I cannot honestly say that I know of any country within Europe where a company or an individual tax payer would be allowed to go for so long without filing auditable accounts. So why is it acceptable for the EU Commision to do this? Why do none of the Governments hold them accountable?

Do not in any way misunderstand me. I fully believe that in due time, not only Europe will be on united entity, but eventually the entire globe will over time come to realise common interests & governance. However, we must remember that in Europe we have yet to go a Generation without conflict & loss of life on the continent. As a continent, We need to lose a little of our own national patriotism and replace it with some continental patriotism first. The EU is a truly laudable aim, but it has been driven way too far, way too soon by politicians who's egos are unable to accept that they may not have the pivotal place in history that they think they deserve.

To get firmly back on track. If the EU wants to restore some faith, they need to have the balls to force whoever is the Italian Government to allow Alitalia to wither or prosper by its own efforts. If no rescue efforts come from within the industry, then they [B]MUST be allowed to fall.

If it does sadly come to pass then let us hope it happens swiftly for all concerned, everyone has been hanging on long enough already.

[sevenfoursharer]

DUBAI, U.A.E., 3rd April, 2008 - Trend-setting Emirates Airline will soon offer non-stop daily flights to Italy's fashion hub of Milan, as well as the nation's capital Rome, bringing a new tailored approach to its Italian services. From July 1st, Emirates' flights from Dubai to Milan and Rome will both be direct, non stop and running seven days a week - bringing more convenience and comfort to passengers, just eight months after the airline launched its Venice service.

Alitalia will never stand a chance....

[Me Myself]

Will have to wait until Berlusconi wins the elections, calls his friend Sarkozy and puts an end to this comedy.


I Ford

On what planet and what century do you live ? You surely mistake Sarkozy Elysée palace with Louis the 14 th Versailles palace. Sure he's got an italian wife who isn't Madame de Montespant however. Let her play the guitar and show her tits.
You must have had a tad too many chiantis here. AF isn't AZ, we're a private compagny where the state only holds roughly 12 %. We've got things like a board of directors, shareholders, things that are alltogether very mysterious to you, I know.
Berlusconi will do nothing and Sarkozy CAN do NOTHING. Wake up and smell the coffee. The music just stopped and there ain't enough chairs for everyone. It's just OVER.


Culturally: AF + AZ = can get along. KL + AZ = you gotta be kidding. KLM have no say?


AF and AZ can get along ?? You have to be kidding !!! Where on earth did you get this from ?

[Dysag]

AF and AZ can get along because they both come from countries where people think state aid and intervention in running a business is normal, where unions want a role in management, and where firms can't cut staff without facing a mighty uproar.
Having said that, Spinetta is doing a better job than Willy Walsh but nobody would be able to turn Alitalia round.

Conseil d'administration Air France:

10 membres représentant les actionnaires
8 représentants l'État !
2 représentants les actionnaires salariés
6 représentants les salariés (voix consultative)

[Me Myself]

Tour operator's bookings down 50 % compared to last year.
Long Haul bookings down 40 %.

" AZ take over not vital to AF KLM " quoted by a financial analyst.

[golfyankeesierra]

All over the world if a company runs out of money, it goes bankrupt
Or enters chapter 11...

[jetopa]

I do believe that Mr. Spinetta is doing a commendable job and AF/KLM is looking better than ever (with still a lot of work to do, I assume). The same applies to Mr. Mayrhuber at LH.

But let's not forget that those 2 companies do serve strong home markets and are thriving due to a certain monopoly that they have been granted a long time ago (and which they are defending at all cost).

Alitalia still is heavily subsidized - the same sort of protection applies to LH and KLM/AF, but they have made their homework in the meantime and they are able to compete on a worldwide playing field.

In Germany there are rumours that LH is looking into a takeover of AZ. I personally couldn't care less, but I certainly hope that they think twice about this!

[PAXboy]

F4FReading above messages really points to Europe as being only a sorry failure, surely not the united force it could be.Not at all! Europe is simply a place that has been around for a long time and so many of it's companies and institutions are reaching the natural end of their lives. No company can live for ever and the reasons that they de are numerous. AZ has reached the end of it's life - but may be 'resuscitated' one more time, as it has in the past. But, ultimately, too much time has gone by and they will not be able, now to recover to top league status. AF and KLM made the tough decisions a while back and are healthier now.

Note that my observations say nothing about the EU, only about the natural life span of a company. AZ has done a lot to limit it's own life, as has BA this week, for example.

[Me Myself]

Alitalia still is heavily subsidized - the same sort of protection applies to LH and KLM/AF, but they have made their homework in the meantime and they are able to compete on a worldwide playing field.



LH and AF are both private compagnies, traded at the Frankfurt Börse and the Paris stock exchange. Subsidies, as you don't seem to know, are forbidden by Brussels. The french shredded a bit of that rule.........15 years ago, Germans, as usuall, stuck to the rule. Anyhoo, both, as you say did their homework. Germans because that's all they know, french because they came to their senses ( Thank God ! ) and also because french politicians ( for whom I have no particular fuzzy feelings ) are not the mafia , cheap fast food maners like buffoons italians choose to be represented by.
Since 1993, AF hasn't gotten a penny from the state who by the way only holds around 12 % of the shares.
Sure thing, both states support their national airlines when it comes to slots and alike. Don't expect me to complain about it. I don't recall the British government trying to make BA's life miserable.

[md4490]

....you Guys keep thinking that AZ is doomed because any other company,in the same position,would have been...and keep forgetting that AZ is not private: it is a Flag Carrier owned by the Italian Gov.
This is a blessing and a curse.
Up to the mid 70's AZ was doing great (was one of the Major), we had a good management and not much political interference,somewhere along the line that changed and,to make a long story short, here we are now.
EU rules did not help out either, we were watched closely ,maybe a bit too closely (pressure by other competitors? definitely!)
So: AZ has not been managed in a competitive market oriented way, and that is the curse part of the deal,but,in the meantime,everybody has kept his job,that being the blessing one.
We shall see in the next few days if this curse/blessing thing is still "operational" :rolleyes:

[F4F]

Just back from MXP... terminal 1 looks pretty much deserted, but for the cargo area :uhoh:
As for terminal 2, it has taken a very nice color, say kindda orange ;)

Com'on eZ, let's grow before AirOne does, you might even want to employ some of AZs pilots :ok:

Donkey497
We need to lose a little of our own national patriotism and replace it with some continental patriotism
:D


live 2 fly 2 live

[Me Myself]

MD, I can't believe the denial you live in. Ever heard of Swissair and Sabena ?
Up to the mid 70's, AZ like all other european airlines was........er.....profitable because no one gave a hoot about profitability. National carriers where there to wave the flag around the world and possibly sell a few Fiat, BMW's or Peugeot, make employees happy cruising around the world and stuff the costs. The tax payer was here to foot the bill. We all went along with it thinking we were Gods by birthright having a grand time,( oh yeah a grand time !:)) and understanding absolute nada about running a compagny. Trust me, if it could go on today.......I'd sign in right away...........but I need to put steack on the table.
With the price of oil soaring it became a totally different ball game to which airlines, including Luftahansa who almost went tits up in 92, had a lot of trouble adjusting. AF fringed doom's day in 93. You could / should have learned from that. Do not tell me for one minute that you didn't see it coming.
Sorry mate, but AZ service is just appalling and I don't think many people will challenge that. AZ certainly doesn't match the bulk of other european airlines when it comes to service, ontime and bags etc......., but you people refuse to see that. Ok, nothing wrong here. There are just consequences that you are not going to like. Who would ??
You can't drop the bad service on politician's laps. That's AZ employees responsability, not the politicians.
What is happening now, regardless of the future, is just destroying the travelling public's confidence, long haul bookings are already down 40%. People don't want to end up at the other side of the world with a ticket and no aircraft to board.
I would be very surprised if Spinetta came back, specially with Berlusconi coming in. What a waste of his time it would be.
The very " unnegociable " conditions your unions are ready to ( re )negociate about are just unreal. Do you think for 1 second that taking in another state consortium into the deal is acceptable ??? That's just keeping Italy's worst demons in the shop. This offer alone would make a wooden horse die of laughter.
do not be so sure that Alitalia is a "goner"... Unions are tough but not stupid...they will find a way out..

MD, just did a bit of reseach on your previous posts. Now, what do you think of that ?? Only 10 days ago. Ouch !

[testpanel]

md4490

Keep dreaming! Look at the history, look at the cashflow (= going out 1miljon a day?)
180 pilots for 5 cargo airplanes.......get real!
Talk to your union or berlosconi (did i spell that1 right??), will he put another bucket of money in this doomed airline to prove he so-called is right??
Ciao

[md4490]

....hey Guys I just tried to shed same light on the situation...
Fact is they are working on it:the Gov. and the Unions...the last thing they want (I know MeM. doesn't believe me) is to close down the shop...that could produce havoc in Italy...nobody wants that ever and especially so close to election day.
I'm not in denial I'm just fatalistic...I've seen my share of "situations" in 20 years of AZ...and in a lifetime in Italy; a rabbit usually pops out of the hat..will it happen this time? will the rabbit be AF or LH or Aeroflot or "stand alone"? I do not know...it may be that there are no more rabbits left (even though CDG is full of it..:})..we'll see...
One thing for sure: tomorrow Fco-Ssh-Nap...still flying for the time being:cool:

[Me Myself]

MD, I don't wish to come across as harsh, but mate you are in denial.
No one in De Gaulle head office feels like popping out of your hat anymore.
Maybe Merlin Berlusconi is going to come up with some nice trick, but as far as AF KLM is concerned I wouldn't hold my breath.
You guys did everything possible to drive Spinetta away and that's not including Berlusconi. One thing I know about my boss is that he is rather straightfoward, the slamming doors, coming back, leaving again screaming mamamia isn't the way he's behaved in all the years he's been at the helm. Good for him because honestly, your ways would drive me absolutly cookoo.

One thing for sure: tomorrow Fco-Ssh-Nap...still flying for the time being:cool:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=4025122)

Don't forget your credit card or better, stop at that ATM on your way to ........er.........work ? You may have to pay for fuel.

[fendant]

Let's summarize the facts:

a) the company is bleeding cash at an alarming rate ( ~1 mio € per day in the past 2 months )
b) bookings ( = trust from customers ) are down 40%
c) corporate customers are increasingly reluctant to pay for the tickets in advance
d) private customers fear that they pay for something and will never see delivery
d) creditors ( banks, leasing companies, suppliers are getting nervous)

Currently the estimate is, that they are loosing closer to 2 Mio € per day.

Do customers and creditors trust the little clown Berlusconi or is somebody pulling the plug any day now and puts AZ on advance payment? This would trigger a chain reaction as it did with Swissair/Sabena and force AZ into bankruptcy.
Ok, the unions threaten that they will shut down all airports in Italy, so what ? Will we again see crews using their private credit cards to pay for fuel?

The little clown Berlusconi cited recently some possible Italian investors. He was daydreaming, as they all rushed to declare their non interest / non willingness. Unless little Silvio comes up with a major fraudulent solution ( which he is determined to do to save his "renovated" face ) AZ is toast.

Frank

[md4490]

...let you know when I'll get back...for the fuel I mean..take care gotta go :)

[Capt Claret]

An article in the Aviation Supplement to Friday's Australian suggested that Alitalia could be doomed because KLM/AF have withdrawn due to insufficient concessions offered by the unions. And the EU won't countenance more state funds going into it the keep it afloat.

[Me Myself]

Hyo MD

While in Naples..........don't forget to take the garbage out :))


Alitalia lose 2,500
In the past two weeks, US and European airlines have announced a total of more than 100,000 job losses.

Many carriers are also cutting capacity substantially.

Unprecedented

"The grave and immediate repercussions of the attacks on the US at a global level have created a crisis in the civil aviation industry unprecedented since the Second World War," Alitalia said in a statement.

The Alitalia cuts will affect one eighth of the company's 20,000 workers, with 900 flight staff and 1,600 ground staff jobs to go.

Twelve aircraft including four Boeing 747 jumbo jets are to be mothballed or sold while scheduled services to Hong Kong, Beijing and San Francisco are being suspended.

Capacity on routes to New York is being reduced.

Alitalia said the cuts were aimed at reducing losses in the six month period from October 2001 to March 2002 to about 400bn lire ($190m; £130m) from a previous estimate of 700bn lire.

The struggling airline had already notched up losses of 503bn lire in January-June this year, in a worsening performance since last year's 495bn lire full-year loss.

Shares suspended

Alitalia shares were suspended from trading on the Milan stock exchange on Tuesday, after exceeding the permitted 10% daily gain.

The stock exchange said the shares were suspended at 1113 GMT, when they stood at 0.734 euros, up 11.03%.

Despite Tuesday's rise, the shares remain about two-thirds down on their level 12 months ago.

Last week, Alitalia asked the Italian government for emergency support in light of the global aviation industry crisis and US support for its national carriers.

No response has yet been made public.


Amazing what you can find when you fiddle with the search engine !!
No, this wasn't published yesterday by posted by RVR800...........on Sept 25th..........2001.

[main_dog]

While in Naples..........don't forget to take the garbage out

your ways would drive me absolutly cookoo.

MeMyself, your jingoism is showing again...

considering you belong to one of the least-liked european nations, I'd reign the cheek in... or else we'll have to start reminding you about all the things we love about the french... ahhhh don't get me started!

:=

[Me Myself]

or else we'll have to start reminding you about all the things we love about the french... ahhhh don't get me started!


I'm all ears. Vent, you'll feel much better afterwards.

[captplaystation]

main dog, please don't. . . I doubt there is enough bandwidth to contain it .

[Me Myself]

Don't have a problem with your comments Me Myself.
Quite obviously you don't want your employers current profits drained by a bunch of no-hopers.
Your operating language in the cockpit is French,...


You mean we're not friends anymore ??? :confused:

[captplaystation]

Yeah, course we are, but like all "good neighbours" we have to recognise ( and appreciate ?) our " little" cultural differences, it's what makes it so fun . . . .well so my French ex-partner told me , but that is another story.
Anyway , felicitations on the lucky escape, shame to see all that profitability going down that bottomless pit on the other side of the Alps.
Bon Dimanche.

[fendant]

Just heard on the radio:

The AZ unions agreed to return to the negotiation table! CGIL at least agreed to a second round of talks after Finance Minister Tommaso Padoa-Schioppa warned them about immediate bankruptcy procedures.

At least there may be some AZ employees / AZ union reps who are using their brains. I still remember the amount of help the AZ crews gave to their Swissair collegues after the grounding in 2001. In BKK an AZ crew hosted the whole SR crew, who were kicked out of their rooms.

Let's keep the fingers crossed!

Frank

[jouy31]

Conseil d'administration Air France:

10 membres représentant les actionnaires
8 représentants l'État !
2 représentants les actionnaires salariés
6 représentants les salariés (voix consultative


This is completely misleading, as it is the board of the Air France subsidiary. The board of directors of Air France/KLM group has only three representatives from French authorities out of a total of sixteen board members.

[main_dog]

The AZ unions agreed to return to the negotiation table!

Actually, it was never the unions who quit the negotiating table, it was JC Spinetta who walked off :ooh:...

Basically he presented the unions with a take it or leave it offer, and when they presented a counter-offer he got up and left! There's probably a lot more going on behind the scenes than meets the eye...

By the way Fendant thanks for the moral support, it makes for a refreshing change on this forum...:ok:

[eu01]

Basically, the thread's title instead of "Klm/AirFrance will take over Alitalia, 500 pilots will lose their jobs" could be changed to: "How many AZ people will lose their jobs if KLM/AF refuse to return to the negotiating table?" :suspect:

[Me Myself]

Actually, it was never the unions who quit the negotiating table, it was JC Spinetta who walked off :ooh:...

Basically he presented the unions with a take it or leave it offer, and when they presented a counter-offer he got up and left! There's probably a lot more going on behind the scenes than meets the eye...

By the way Fendant thanks for the moral support, it makes for a refreshing change on this forum...:ok:

Main_dog

You make it sound as if the responsability of this amazing mess was just shifted to JC Spinetta's laps and the french had a responsability towards AZ. If so, let me pause briefly to laugh........done !
The so called " negociations " from AZ's unions was to invite a State consortium to be part of the deal. That's only inviting italian politics through the back door. Surely, you must be jesting.
All this is solely AZ's doing. No less. The french came, had a look, expressed the conditions under which they would go for the deal, got a no for an answer ( fair enough ) and left ( even fairer !!! ).
The board is probably meeting as I speak and I sure pray whoever that they don't go back into that snakepit.
We don't need AZ, any airline in Europe can pick up italian passengers using their own fleet. Lufthansa is the best equiped using the Swiss underused state of the art airport, or even Munich magnificent airport. A lot closer to Paris. That's why Spinetta wants ( or wanted ) AZ. AF would buy at a price close to nothing BUT how much money would we waste into this trying to rebuild it??? Nobody knows and this is a real worry to everybody. Italy's ways will always be the same.
Would it be Iberia I would be all for it. I am only relaying what is being talked among us on a daily basis because let me tell you that this is attracting a lot of attention here. Do not make the mistake to think it's just me.
French unions, no doubt, will voice their worries if this crazy charade goes through.
Sure, Fendant's post is very refreshing, but I don't think AZ ever put a bid to buy Swissair out of their financial pitfall. Lending a toothbrush is hardly to be compared to risking your job. All of a sudden, this forum is almost buzzing with " shoulds " and " ought " to AZ on AF's part. This is a farce.

Finally Main_dog, nobody likes you very much either.

[main_dog]

Finally Main_dog, nobody likes you very much either.

OUCH! :ouch:

However, I think I'm finally beginning to understand what this is really about... it's the 2006 world cup you're still sore about, is it not?

:}:}:}

[main_dog]

Ok ok, sorry, that was a low blow... :cool:

Trying to get back on topic... don't be so touchy, MeMyself, no-one is trying to imply that your beloved JC Spinetta is responsible for AZ's situation. I think what I was trying to say is that the decision-making is probably occurring at far higher levels than most of us imagine... probably in the boardrooms of ENI-SUEZ-Gaz de France-EADS as well as in Brussels, the Champs-Elysees (excuse the spelling) and the Viminale.

Often what they feed us in newspapers is just what they want us to know!

Simple line pilots like you or me may squawk and moan, but at the end we're just employees... n'est-ce pas?

Good luck again to AZ pilots. :ok:

[Me Myself]

However, I think I'm finally beginning to understand what this is really about... it's the 2006 world cup you're still sore about, is it not?



Main_dog

I hate football and if you admire bullies like Materrazzi be my very guest.
These football players have the brain of a monkey and earn millions. Yuk !
My things are running and rugby and I should hate the Poms.........but I don't; sensitive me. I actually was in Yorshire when the English nailed the French. Talk of a death wish; walking straight into the snake pit. I had a grand time. Ther's nothing like an english country pub, trust me.

I-Ford

Honestly I-Ford, if we had the immediate ressources ( aircrafts, pilots ) I'm sure the order to march in would come right away. It ain't the case hence the ( not so brilliant idea in my view as you know ) to buy AZ out.
Lufthansa like the hard working / planning troopers they've always been are, as usual, ready to march in. They came, smellt the brew.......and decided not to commit. There will be a lot of german storks on italian airports very soon.
I have my ears stuck to the ground and can hear no stampede to Rome right now which seems to indicate no one is interested. I'm sure Berlusconi will ...........what was it ??? .........Ah, yes......pop something out of his hat. Real cute uncle Silvio..........who by the way was standing trial in Milano for........excuse me ?? Corruption in 2003. Brrrrr ! Good luck on election day !!
The italian travelling public,( the one who doesn't hold patriotic views and just wants to go from A to B without being hasseled) won't so picky about the airline they fly. It'll be LH, AF and possibly BA ( a bit too far north ).
I'm talking about those wealthy people from the north who, from what I understand from here, only make a lot of noise about the affair but really only think about themselves and despise people from the south. Am I that far off mark ?
The rest, you know, John Dow's like you and me, will have to make do with what's left to fly. Don't you find Air One silence a tad suspicious all of a sudden, after all that barracking they did?? They will just be creaming off what's left.
Bly me ! I nearly forgot the Russian alternative !!
You find the french ruthless " just you wait " as Lisa Doolittle so elegantly put it ( My fair Lady , in case you didn't know ). I am sure you will thoroughly enjoy it.......if you like being bullied and coerced that is.
Just one piece of advice.......never accept tea from those guys during negociations........! I understand it makes you glow in the dark.
Apart from what I told you, I have no clue what AF plan is........sorry was.

[Me Myself]

..............the Champs-Elysees (excuse the spelling) and the Viminale

Main_dog

The Champs Elysées is the tackiest and most vulgar place in Paris and full of whores.......... and tourists........winning combination !
You must be refering to the Elysée Palace, the official residence of the president and his............italian wife. Is this the connection you see ?? You mean a board of directors can be overruled because the president is hopping to get lucky tonight ???
Let me pause on that one. It's too much to handle.

[jouy31]

"At today’s Air France-KLM Board of Directors meeting, Mr. Jean-Cyril Spinetta informed members of the situation resulting from the breakdown in talks between Air France-KLM and the unions representing the different Alitalia employee categories.

The Board of Directors took note of the breaking off of talks, and understood and approved the reasons for this situation.

It was considered that the plan submitted by AF/KL on 14 March and subsequently amended during negotiation meetings on 18, 25, 31 March and 1 and 2 April was the only one that would enable Alitalia to return to profitable growth within a rapid timeframe.


It is now up to Alitalia, its employees and unions representing staff to say how they view the future of their airline."



(my bolding)

[Me Myself]

Well, basically it's a " Take it or leave it " kind of statement. I was hoping " we're walking ".

[jouy31]

It's on the Airfrance corporate website and no, I'm just on the web ;)

[main_dog]

(Digression warning) It never ceases to amaze me that Zidane can head-butt one of our players during a world cup final in front of two million spectators and it is Materazzi who ends up the bully... amazing bit of gallic logic that. :eek:

But back on topic... Elysée Palace, the official residence of the president and his............italian wife. Is this the connection you see ??
No mate (Me Myself that is), you read wayy too much into my posts... or not enough... I frankly very much doubt that beautiful Carla has anything to do with this! (too bad, would render everything a little jollier n'est-ce pas?)

I think the levels involved here are major national unions, government (but not wives!) and BIG industry, with much going on behind the scenes that we are not aware of.

Just my two lira worth...

[md4490]

...hi Guys just back from the cockpit...no garbage in Naples...no problems in getting fuel...:ok:
...and looks like JCS did not slam the door for good...after all he did not do anything wrong......he just came to deal with a different proposal and non negotiable..:rolleyes:..maybe he got upset because he did not receive a "red carpet" reception..:=.well too bad ..he should have known better after sitting for over two years in the AZ board...but maybe he did know better and what is happening it is not just a random event...now a bunch of AZ people is begging to be "saved" by AF...saved my (3 letters word) if you ask me...but it is not in my hands...I think this farce will go on until after election day (next week)...

[Me Myself]

No garbage in Naples ??? Are you sure you were not in Zurich ??

begging to be "saved" by AF...saved my (3 letters word)

3 letters ??? You mean ass ? woooooooooooops. Uncle Prune is going to be very upset.

[fendant]

MeMy,

I was just referrring to the many of fine AZ crews who helped their stranded SR collegues in many locations back in 2001. :D
AZ does not have money today to buy toothbrushes, nor could they afford to bail out SR back in 2001.

This thread is turning into a general AZ bashing, not all of AZ employees ( especially the airborne kind ) are morons. AZ is IMHO just another example of an airline run into the ground by the lethal combination of sloppy management, political interference and yesterday unions.

I am not so sure about Eastern, Northern or Northwestern European Airlines easily stepping in and picking up the Italian traffic. Bear in mind that the same stupid unions are also in combination with organised crime ever present at the Italian airports. The only choice for the Milanese would be Lugano Agno which is out of reach for the Italian unions. However choice of planes is limited there due to the short RWY and the steep approach ( plus Milano ATC). Only Crossair Moritz Suter, the biggest charlatan in the European airline industry got away with breaking the legal rules for years by landing with poorly trained pilots and non steep approach certified aircraft in LUG.

Looks currently like a gridlock!

Frank

PS: I am 100% sure that you will never see a German stork. Maybe we will see more blue yellow cranes in Italy!

[Me Myself]

Fendant

I don't know that this thread is turning into an AZ bashing. There are however people like me among others, who are extremely concerned about this deal possibly going through.
All of what you're saying about mafia, yesteryears unions etc........is going to make spend a sleepless night, thank you very much.
I have said it a lot of times on this thread, I will feel a lot better, along with a lot of people I know, if this doesn't go through.
If you are an ex Swissair, then you will connect with this. I don't want to see my compagny and my job along with it go down the drain because of unwise management. Maybe we're just doing too well and JCS is becoming a bit light headed with success.
Mr Brugisser had the same ambition, buying everything that was for sale, usually hopeless cases with the consequences we all know.
I'd rather keep my toothbrush.
AZ is a fruitcake and can only be managed by fruitcakes.

[jouy31]

I can understand the reluctance of AF staff and pilots to get involved in the messy restructuring of AZ operations. I can also measure the reactions of KL representatives, who were judged to be in violation of the KL/AZ agreement and who were ordered by an arbitration court to pay EUR 250 million to AZ in 2002.

Nevertheless, IMHO, AF needs to have a strong Southern European hub; there are different trade-offs to having this hub in Spain or in Italy. JCS has proven over the years that he is a skillfull operator and an effective leader with a strategic vision. Losing both the opportunities for taking over IB and AZ would be, in my personal opinion, a setback on the road to making AF a major global player, based on several continents, at the time it is trying to bolster a DL/NW alliance and looking at a major Asian partner.

[fendant]

MeMy,

you are rightly concerned about JCS. Basically the takeover of Sabena by SR was not a bad idea, when the rightwings succeeded to win the vote against Europa. Goetz ( predecessor of Bruggisser ) fault was that he did not concentrate all SR forces on cleaning house in Brussels and break the power of the Belgian unions and fire the sloppiest SN employees.
Instead he then developped the "Hunter" strategy and invested into or bought every crappy fledgling airline in Euope and abroad ( like Air Litter All ). The final nail in the coffin for SR was LTU.

JCS seems to be copying this by announcing that he would invest into a merged DL/NW. Me thinks that the task of fixing DL/NW is a gargantuous task already ( if not impossible in view of the coming US recession ). Fixing AZ at the same time would certainly endanger AZ/KL, even with the combined AF/KL resources. I think this should be an either/or. Both are IMHO risky undertakings.

Do you still remember the "Alcazar" project ( KL, SK, SR, OS ) ?

Frank

[Me Myself]

Fendant

Why do you keep disrupting my peace of mind in the evening ??? I know all of that and this is giving me an ulcer.
Just finihed an article in the paper about the coming italian election and how a lot of politician were heavily involved with the mafia.

All of what you say is absolutly spot on. NW/DL would be the largest money losing airline. We've heard nothing so far.
Blessed be the Dutch as I know they refrain JCS somehow. They still have a vivid memory of AZ.
Having said that, Jouy is also right and AF / KLM and Luftansa will be scavenging the remains.
AZ is just going to go under, surely but not quietly I'm sure.
Main_dog, your scenario of " more than meet the eye " is ludicrous trust me. It's just AF / KLM and AZ............and probably a few crooked politicians '( what an oxymoron ) about whom the french governement doesn't give dung. But I know you have a lot of trouble accepting it.
AZ pilots think the world can't revolve without them..........well, that's exactly what my aussie friends believed 19 years ago and 600 of them had to leave their country. But who remembers that today ? I supsect you do main_dog.

[Lemurian]

Quote : "he then developped the "Hunter" strategy and invested into or bought every crappy fledgling airline in Euope and abroad ( like Air Litter All ). "
That's in my books is called "revisionism". Had the Swissair management had a better sense of European realities (forgot :how could they ? They voted not to know ) and a sensible business plan - which they never showed -, they could have made a success of at least some of their purchases.
The example of air Littoral, which was a viable regional airline shows their ineptitude. It's interesting to know that Britair and AF had approached the Air Lit management in order to form / consolidate the *Regional* part of air France, but not at any cost. Until then, Air Lit was a successful entity. As Britair is still now.
Get your facts before you start posting insults.

[Wadadli]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g4uSMUbLQKoPjLXCY2yNjge6HCKQD906GJFO0

[sedburgh]

BBC reporting "Air France scraps Alitalia bid " http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7359866.stm

[ettore]

What a relief !:D

[mini]

Italy is a political and economic basketcase.

Its national airline echos this.

As for Berlisconi... read the above.

The EU is a very diverse area...

[ATC Watcher]

Correct, but Nobody expected Alitalia to be still operating by the end of the year as it is today . Whether it is as part of the AF/KL group or not. Looks like Sabena all over again. Sad story.

[mini]

Agreed, can't see it being saved TBH, evolution will take over. Italy is fast approaching Greece in terms of EC bailout states, pity but there you go.

[apaddyinuk]

Im still recovering from the shock that AZ is STILL operating never mind whether it will survive until the end of the year.

What I do not understand is how Italy seem to get away with pumping money into the carrier against European rules or am I totally missing something?

[Rwy in Sight]

Although I am not Italian (but I have links to the country), I am hard pressed to believe that the new government would go down in history as the one that closed AZ (a national institution or icon). Obviously the same could have been said about Swissair but Italy is a different case all together. Anyway I think the deal had failed some weeks ago.

apaddyinuk, this is Italy.

Rwy in Sight

[Dysag]

Who wants a national institution or icon like Alitalia? It gives a bad impression of the country. It's a bit like LHR T5, only it's been around longer. Too long.

[dubh12000]

Relax everyone, Silvio's got a cunning plan. A plan as cunning as a fox who's just been appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford University........

[The SSK]

From the Berlusconi/Putin press conference last Friday:

SILVIO BERLUSCONI: ... As for the other issue, the question of Alitalia, the situation remains completely open. There are still ongoing contacts with Air France, and we do not have anything against them. And we have talked about the possibility of creating a large international group, a group of affiliated companies, which would put Alitalia on an equal footing with other carriers, in particular Air France.

And I have to say that, once negotiations with Air France are over, then we will be able to talk about how to increase international involvement in the project. We discussed with President Putin the possibility of involving Aeroflot in this international project. Aeroflot has expressed its own interest in participating, and we discussed the possibility of organising a roundtable discussion, a forum in which representatives of Aeroflot and Alitalia can sit down together and discuss possible further cooperation, and perhaps sign an agreement to establish an international group of affiliated companies.

With regard to the last part of your question, I would say that the question of European funding is secondary. The main thing is to resolve the issue on its merits and make sure Alitalia remains the principal Italian carrier, the principal instrument for ensuring tourism and tourist links to our country. As you know, Italy has about 50 per cent of the world's cultural heritage, which is the main reason our country attracts so many tourists.

VLADIMIR PUTIN: We actually discussed this issue today. Mr Berlusconi presented his ideas for resolving this problem. It is clear that he is concerned about the preservation of the largest national carrier and is thinking about national economic interests. It is a difficult situation: you need to pay off debts and make the company profitable, and you probably need to talk about the company's reorganisation. And you cannot avoid negotiations with the government or with the trade unions. The alternative proposed by Mr Berlusconi was acceptable because it called for the resumption of contacts and an exchange of views. I talked today with Aeroflot's chairman of the board: they are ready to resume contacts with their Italian counterparts. Of course we don't know what the result will be: these are business negotiations.

[VAFFPAX]

Funny that Berlusconi keeps saying that he has nothing against Air France KLM in the presscon when he was dead-set against the bailout offer that AFK made while Prodi & Co were in office. That man will do anything to stay in power and in the news.

But that said, I have to concur with others here that AZ won't live to the end of the year if this keeps going on. Even my Italian compatriots will actively avoid flying AZ if they can. If an Italian can't be proud of his national airline, then you know it's bad.

S.

[Henry VIII]

against European rules or am I totally missing something?You are missing that up to now European administration has approved, or tolerated, the various fundings lavished by Italian government.

So, at the moment, they are pumping money legally.

[Just a spotter]

Aeroflot seem to be emerging as a contender again ... according to Reuters;

an Aeroflot spokesman said on Tuesday. "We are expecting the Italian side to invite us to talks. However, Aeroflot will be guided (in its decision-making) ... purely by pragmatic reasons and interests of investors," he said.Might be a cheep way for AFL to increase their Airbus fleet. I suppose all those 154's will look very smart wearing green and red sitting in the Italian sunshine.

JAS

[fendant]

Yep, think it will be a great idea to create Aliflot and use the vintage TU's to shuttle the well behaving Russian tourists to Venice Florence Rome and Naples.

I am sure that the crook Berlusconi will come up with a ( illegal) solution to pump more money into the fledgling carrierr. He will have full support of his coalition partner Lega and reopen the Malpensa hub. He has never shown any respect to constitution or legal boundaries.

Therefore my 2cts: As soon as the new government is in office he will offer a loan at commercial conditions to AZ ( "until things are sorted out" ). Nobody else would loan one cent, but he will.
AZ will still fly and burn money by 31.12.2008

Frank

[Henry VIII]

He has never shown any respect to constitution or legal boundaries.Curious statement, when coming from Switzerland...

[Me Myself]

He will be cunning with Vladimir !! Good God, I am laughing my head off just at the thought of Vladimir and Silvio ........saving ??? Alitalia.
Anyway, I can relax now.
Incidentally I got word yesterday that a significant number of Alitalia pilots are going though the AF interview process at this time. It looks like " patriotism " got its limits and that people are jumping off the Alitinic.


Fabio Berti, head of the Alitalia pilots union Anpac, played down the significance of the statement, insisting that it was just a "snapshot" of the state of the deal and that "absolutely nothing changes."


Dear Fabio

Has " being in denial " any meaning to you ?? You're right about one thing though..............." absolutly nothing changes " :ugh::}

[Rwy in Sight]

Dysag,

In a way AZ is the national icon, very stylish but lacks some efficiency, just like some older Italian cars or as a female (non italian) friend once told about that Italian guys are good at chatting up but failed elsewhere. (we aim to keep PPRuNe child safe).

When forecasting the future of AZ bear in mind two things: Initially governments are extremely good when they want to be and second spare some thoughts about who benefits from maintaining AZ in such a situation.

The EU authorities would be hard pressed to identify all the illegal means of financing used to maintain the airline flying.

Rwy in Sight

[fendant]

They are faster than I thought:

Just heard on the evening news:

The outgoing government is going to grant a 300 Mio € loan to AZ in order to keep it afloat. "this will give the incoming government more time to work out a 100% Italian solution for our national airline".

Frank

Assuming they burn between 1.5 and 2.0 Mio € per day this would give them time until end 2008.

[VAFFPAX]

Curious statement, when coming from Switzerland...
How's that... AFAIK Switzerland is very much compliant with legal boundaries and constitutionality. But what YOU consider legal and what THEY consider legal are two different things.

S.

[md4490]

..I think we can all relax now...the AF deal was a stinky one to begin with:yuk:...I am more than glad it did not go through....:=
The first rabbit is out of the hat...let's wait and see for the next:cool:

[PAXboy]

All quotes from The Independent of 23rd April 2008.
Last night, Mr Prodi's outgoing government held an emergency cabinet meeting to discuss the crisis and announced a €300m bridge loan to the airline, in defiance of the EU, to be repaid by 31 December, to stop the airline going bust on Mr Prodi's watch.Alitalia's imminent collapse is Mr Berlusconi's fault ...Alitalia is losing €1m (£800,000) per day and the Italian government has been forbidden by the EU to lend it any more money.La Repubblica yesterday calculated that Alitalia had cost the country €15bn over the past 15 years, "or €270 for every citizen, newborn babies included".The new (temporary) loan ... adds a further €5.13 per citizen to the carrier's bill.It is a wonderfully amusing read:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/berlusconi-hit-by-first-crisis-as-alitalia-faces-bankruptcy-814065.html

[Me Myself]

I think we can all relax now...the AF deal was a stinky one to begin with:yuk:...I am more than glad it did not go through....:=
The first rabbit is out of the hat...let's wait and see for the next:cool:

MD

Drop me a line when you're out of a job.
It seems that a significant number of your colleagues are flocking to Paris to interview......... and seem to be rather successfull too. All jumping off the Alitinic !!! That's how relax everyone seems to be. Somehow AZ isn't all that attractive to them anymore.
One would really wonder why now uncle Silvio is going to be the heroe of the day.

What was it you said ?? Berlusconi was going to call Sarkozy and the whole thing would be settled ?? OUCH !!!

[main_dog]

Drop me a line when you're out of a job.
There you go again, Me Myself, that's just the kind of comment that makes you so endearing :ugh:

It seems that a significant number of your colleagues are flocking to Paris to interview......... and seem to be rather successfull too.
Surprise surprise, AF pilots aren't the only ones who can fly... it turns out we can too...

Now if only our managers could manage and our governments could govern...:{

[Me Myself]

Main Dog

Do you expect me to get all teary ?? Got to be kidding !

Surprise surprise, AF pilots aren't the only ones who can fly... it turns out we can too...

Who said so ?? I don't give a s...t if your comrades give it a go.........as long as they don't export AZ, Berlusconi, the North leage, mafia ways, it's fine with me.
I understand your flying days are long gone, are they not ??

[main_dog]

Do you expect me to get all teary ?? Got to be kidding !


No, I don't expect anyone to get all teary, least of all you... what I would like, although cannot expect (especially from your ilk), is a bit more solidarity between pilots... but I always have been a hopeless dreamer :ugh:

If I promise you my colleagues will not bring their Berlusconi, mafia, and northern league ways with them will you promise me not to feed them baguettes and contaminate them with your Le Pen, French-army-in-Algeria, banlieu-burning-youth and whole-country-striking-at-the-drop-of-a-hat ways? :}

And why do you bring out the worst in me, Me Myself? :=

MD

PS Nope, I'm bang in the middle of my career

[Evileyes]

Referee warning..... drop the personal invective and back to the topic please.

Thanks,
The Mods

[Me Myself]

And why do you bring out the worst in me, Me Myself? :=


How about because it's simply what you are ??? In basic psychology it's called " not taking responsability " . I can send you a few good book references. One of them is actually telling " Look at what you made me do " You'll love it. I'm 1000 miles away, I wish I was that powerfull. I would maybe get the loto numbers right !!

Anyway, back to the topic. What I'm smiling about ( sort of ) is to see on one hand the pilots union still dead certain AZ will just go on until the cows come home, Berlusconi cautiously announcing 7000 jobs will have to go and at the same time pilots silently flocking to Paris to interview for a job. Yes Main_Dog, I find this rather ironic.
When the dust settles, no matter how many weeks/ months it takes, we'll do the body counts and I can promise you the following. Your pilots union leaders will have negociated themselves a sweet and cosy little deal, the french speaking hopefully will have a job with AF and the rest will be looking for a chair once the music stops. Do not lecture me on solidarity.
Where I come from I say what I do and I do what I say.


PS Nope, I'm bang in the middle of my career


You could have fooled me !

[main_dog]

Do not lecture me on solidarity.
I won't as clearly you have none... if your posts in this thread are anything to go by, you're also rather prejudiced against Italians, which is the main thing I take issue with. It's hard enough being governed by incompetent fools (our innumerable governments) and managed by thiefs (AZ's innumerable managers) without having to hear from our "cousins from across the alps" things like Why should I relish the prospect of working with a bunch of clowns.

BUT, as the mods rightly pointed out, your prejudices or my irritation with them don't add much to this thread, SO, apologies to everyone for the drift and back on-topic: will the 300 million euro loan be allowed to go through by the EU? And if it does go through, will it be accompanied by the meaningful structural changes at AZ that would allow AZ to return to profit?

Oil prices are through 117 dollars a barrel, five airlines folded in the last few weeks and even airlines like RYR are planning to ground or lease out aircraft this winter, so as for AZ's chances I'm not holding my breath... :(

[Me Myself]

will the 300 million euro loan be allowed to go through by the EU? And if it does go through, will it be accompanied by the meaningful structural changes at AZ that would allow AZ to return to profit?


You will get your 300 millions, no doubt and probably 300 more next year as Silvio will probably tell Brussel to s.d o.f in his flamboyant style. The rest is up to you but if you don't get investors in ( and they will have to use the chop ) 300 mil buys you a little less than 300 days, just to function the way you do now. Forget buying new aircrafts which is what you badly need with a barrel at 117 $.

Prejudice ??? Nope mate. I know I would be totally unhappy working there, but that's me and that's why I never considered staying more than the lovely time I had each time I went. I am just the type of guy who just likes to know where he stands and hates drama. No sense of superiority in the least. Just personal taste.That's why I've always prefered northern cultures. Nothing wrong with that is there ?
But allow me a sprinkle of doubt about your nationality. Somehow I see you as ex Ansett, did a hint of 767 for AZ and went on to doing something else and apart from flying for Air One ( and even I wouldn't wish you to ) I can't see what you'd be doing there. If we're cousins, I think it must be on the saxon side.

Unfortunatly I don't see much difference between Sarkozy or Berlusconi and that's why I count my blessings each day thinking of how fortunate we are to be a private compagny and have KLM alongside.They no doubt, had more than their say in this story and I'm not sure where we'd be today had they not been around.

[The SSK]

One of the UK papers this week (Independent?) pointed out that over the last 15 years Alitalia had cost every Italian - man, woman and child -
€270. This loan has just added another €5 to that. At what point do the taxpayers say 'enough'?

[Finn47]

Here´s what the Finnair CEO said about the € 300 million loan:

http://www.newsdesk.se/view/pressrelease/finnair-does-not-accept-alitalia-subsidies-211256

Somehow I think I agree with his views.

[Me Myself]

Good God

This should really scare the living s...t out of Silvio !!!!:sad:
Are you kidding ??? He doesn't give a damn about what the EEC thinks, least of all the Finnair CEO !!!
Look I don't blame him. What's the choice ?? Either a little slap on the wrist from >Brussels or thousands of people marching the streets of Rome.
Alitalia is going to go on like this forever and the EEC will do nothing.

[md4490]

...Hi, back from a 5 days flying and to Mem; no I've never said that Silvio should call Nicolas ( God forbid) as for the rest I do not think I'll be out of a job anytime soon...just wait and see....:cool::cool:

[Just a spotter]

U.S. private equity fund Texas Pacific Group (TPG) could be interested in Alitalia SpA again, if the company is declared insolvent, said TPG partner Vincenzo Morelli, responsible for TPG European investment.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/24337972

JAS

[Finn47]

An article in "Corriere della Sera" today says that Berlusconi now threatens the EU: if the EU creates problems with the 300m loan, he will make the government-owned Italian Railroad Company buy Alitalia :rolleyes:

http://www.corriere.it/politica/08_aprile_29/berlusconi_letta_sottosegretario_656ffe48-15c2-11dd-acde-00144f02aabc.shtml

[answer=42]

will the 300 million euro loan be allowed to go through by the EU?

As far as I know, the EC does not have the power to block the loan in advance. The EC can only force the load to be repaid. If the Italian Government can show that it is acting in the same way as a private investor, Alitalia can keep the loan. Clearly this is not the case: the threat to have Italian Railways buy Alitalia is like announcing a planned nationalisation. The money will have to repaid.

But what can Berlusconi do before the loan is repaid? I had thought that he would try the following plan:

1.a. Split off into a new company a few profitable routes and traffic rights, together with the rights to the name 'Alitalia' if the main company stops flying. Preferably have all his pals (including the one in the mirror) get a stake in the new company. Publicise as a great Italian success.
1.b. Wait a few months, then let the main company go bankrupt, preferably blaming the EC for demading repayment of loan.

I really don't see the end-game for Berlusconi through nationalisation:
2.a. The loan will have to go back.
2.b. Italian railways will have additional debt. Rail competition comes into force in a few years and they will have a fight on their hands for inter-city travel.
2.c. All Alitalia debt (not just the new loan but the whole lot) will go on the government's books. This will breach EC agreements big time. People will sit up and take notice.

The question is: is Berlusconi bluffing on nationalisation? He's stupid enough not to be. It comes down to one thing: what's in it for him? Under plan 1 above, he could walk away with a profit (leaving the mess with creditors and the Italian public, as usual). But I don't see where plan 2 gets him.

[EagleStar]

A potential strike at Air France-KLM promises to wreck havoc in Europa's air travel industry. The planned walk-out is scheduled to occur on May 22nd, 2008, after French union leaders invited airline employees to join other workers across the country in a strike aimed at expressing their displeasure against government attempts to reform the country’s pension scheme. Six French unions have already made it clear that they would participate in the mass strike. It has not yet been confirmed whether any Air France-KLM employees will join the labour action, nor has there been any indication about how long the walk-out will actually last.

EagleStar

[Me Myself]

It has not yet been confirmed whether any Air France-KLM employees will join the labour action, nor has there been any indication about how long the walk-out will actually last.[/COLOR]
]

..........and according to you this, although not knowing if AF/KLM employees were going to take part, is going to create........havoc ???

[EagleStar]

Me Myself


Don't shoot the messenger! I am merely trying to find out whether this is going to take place and what action exactly will be taken! It is not my intention to stir things up or create havoc and this information was merely taken from another source: http://strike.skynetblogs.be/

Just trying to get some info as this could affect me



EagleStar

[RatherBeFlying]

Toronto Star Article (http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/436518)

Pearson International Airport's newest runway lacks proper safety margins and falls short of international standards, Air France alleges in a lawsuit following the dramatic 2005 crash of one of its jets at the site.

The French airline and its insurers are suing the Greater Toronto Airports Authority, which runs Pearson, the federal government and the country's air-traffic control agency for some $180 million, charging they all cut corners that contributed to the crash of its Airbus A340 jet.

The airline takes aim at the airport operator, saying the design of Runway 24 Left – which ends at a steep ravine – failed to ensure there was an "adequate margin of safety for aircraft in the event of an overrun event..."This is not the first thunderstorm accident where everybody was landing successfully until the last one did not.

Anyway there's no surprise that the insurer is looking for contributions from other parties.

If EMAS becomes more widely used as a result of this lawsuit, lives and hulls will be saved.

[MarkD]

"Air France has continued to operate flights including those by A340 aircraft on Runway 24L since the said incident," the government says in its statement of defence.Says it all really. If it's unsafe to the point of legal liability, don't use it. Or just stop landing 4,000ft down a 9,000ft runway in a thunderstorm.

GTAA should sue AF for littering.

[Smudger]

Mark D,

Hear hear

Smudger

[ex-EGLL]

How many times have AF landed a 340 on 24L prior to and following their poorly planned excursion from the paved surface? Howcome it was only considered unsafe on that one day? In addition to littering they should also be held responsible for any environmnetal damage caused.

ex-egll

[fleigle]

If the accident had happened in Montreal would they have sued ??????:E

[parabellum]

If you delete 'Air France' and 'Pearson International Airport' from the report you will just about have the truth.
One set of insurance underwriters is suing another set of insurance underwriters, once the accident has happened the airline and the airport subrogate to their respective underwriters who take over any possible claims from there.

[er340790]

Sadly a reflection of modern commerical times. Parabellum sums up the situation nicely. Presumably GTAA will now counter-claim against AF for all lost revenue / costs associated with the rescue etc etc etc. Lawyers as usual will just love it and drag it on indefinitely.

Personnally I'd just cxl all AF landing slots to be on the safe side.:E

[sevenstrokeroll]

Checking the test guide for a commercial or atp pilot, one must demonstrate landing within 200 feet of a spot.

How many landings have we all made that go outside the above?

Certainly 4000' is way too long.

And it is time to recognize that pilots will make mistakes and airports should be built to allow for these errors.

[MarkD]

point well made parabellum

[PAXboy]

Air France is holding talks on a joint venture that could lead to it offering high-speed rail travel.

The airline confirmed reports it was discussing a possible tie-up with Veolia, a French utility firm that also runs several rail services.

Commentators suggest such a deal would enable the airline to cut fuel costs by moving some services onto the railways. Under the plans Veolia would run trains from Air France's hub airport in Paris to other European destinations.

Rest of story on BBC BBC NEWS | Business | Air France eyes move to railways (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7489483.stm)
Friday, 4 July 2008 11:21 UK

[Just Browsing]

Railway services can be subsidised by governments (unlike airlines) so subsidised services competing with foreign airlines is a good idea - if you're Air France. Seats were subsidised on the TGV service from Paris to Marseille a few years ago. According to a French news website at the time, the Government said it was a move designed to compete with lo-cost airlines - of which there was one, and it wasn't French.

JB

[codpiece face]

Not an unusual concept, the virgin group have been down this road for some time now.

[Code 100]

If you look on Amadeus (and other GDS's), a number of AF flights start or finish on the train already. For example, a flight from Philadelphia to Brussells via JFK and Paris will use two railway journeys that carry AF flight codes.

A good idea because you don't have to wait ages in, or change, terminals in many cases.

It also protects valuable slots at the major hubs. If we could finally get our main lines sorted out (and rail fares!), why not have MAN or LBA to LHR as a rail service.

[RAT 5]

Have Germany not been doing this for a while? In Holland you can buy a train ticket to Schiphol in combination with a KLM ticket. I do not know if that applies to all carriers out of AMS. If so, that might lead to an interesting case of some form of nationalistic discrimination. Why not the same deal for all?

[Hussar 54]

It's a pretty good idea, you know.....And AF ( and LH ! ) have been offering through tickets using rail services for quite a while now....With AF, this includes cities such as Tours, Brussels, etc and others where there is an existing TGV line but no air service....With LH, I believe that these are between Frankfurt and cities such as Stuttgart and Cologne where the journey time is very simlar by rail or by air...

In the land of wine and cheese,although the rail network is not perfect, it is streets ahead of most other European countries because it's still owned by the state....And as mentioned above, investments / subsidies / etc to improve rail networks are permitted by Brussels ( even encouraged ) so a little French tete-a-tete over a nice lunch and I'm sure that the French government will help AF by developing an infrastructure which would suit them both - one asset, two markets - and provide yet more competition for those annoying British and Irish newcomers to domestic air services here....

On the other hand, state ownership means that rail services are one of the main players in the French national sport - going on strike !! So the risk to AF if they do get into bed with SNCF or whoever will be reliability of services....Not really good PR if the service is even slightly unreliable....

But after all, why duplicate the effort and cost of moving people from and to CDG from cities such as Strasburg, Lyon, Bordeaux, etc, when the time for the journies by air and by rail are so similar...And with a TGV station already at CDG2 and no need even to leave the terminals to reach it, there is tremendous potential for cost savings for all involved, not to mention the environmental goodwill that this would be seen to generate....

And question - does a through ticket for an air / rail journey become cheaper if there is no ' ticket tax ' for the part of the journey made by rail ?

So not a new idea, but interesting to see if this will become a full blown operation to destinations outside of France - London using joint services with Eurostar, perhaps, would seem eminently sensible and practical for pax and also free up slots at Heathrow for yet more SkyTeam codeshares....

[MarkD]

AF + Veolia?

SNCF unions won't like that at all... strike in 5,4,3,2...

[west lakes]

From this site, look under UK codes

Welcome to World Airport Codes (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/)


United Kingdomhttp://www.world-airport-codes.com/images/info.gif (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/british-rail-terminal-4168.html)British Rail Terminal (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/british-rail-terminal-4168.html)GB493ZLX
United Kingdom
http://www.world-airport-codes.com/images/info.gif (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/colmore-row-bus-stn-7989.html)Comore Row Bus Stn (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/colmore-row-bus-stn-7989.html)GB493ZBC
United Kingdomhttp://www.world-airport-codes.com/images/info.gif (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/london-st.-pancras-8020.html)London St. Pancras (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/london-st.-pancras-8020.html)GB493QQS
United Kingdomhttp://www.world-airport-codes.com/images/info.gif (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/london-waterloo-8495.html)London-Waterloo (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/london-waterloo-8495.html)GB493QQW
United Kingdomhttp://www.world-airport-codes.com/images/info.gif (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/railway-station-8683.html)Railway Station (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/railway-station-8683.html)GB493XQIUnited Kingdomhttp://www.world-airport-codes.com/images/info.gif (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/railway-station-8684.html)Railway Station (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/railway-station-8684.html)GB493XQHUnited Kingdomhttp://www.world-airport-codes.com/images/info.gif (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/railway-station-8994.html)Railway Station (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/railway-station-8994.html)GB493XWS
United Kingdomhttp://www.world-airport-codes.com/images/info.gif (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/scotrail-2025.html)ScotRail (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/scotrail-2025.html)GB493ZDUUnited Kingdomhttp://www.world-airport-codes.com/images/info.gif (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/scotrail-2594.html)ScotRail (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/scotrail-2594.html)GB493ZGGUnited Kingdomhttp://www.world-airport-codes.com/images/info.gif (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/scotrail-8334.html)ScotRail (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/scotrail-8334.html)GB493ZIV
United Kingdomhttp://www.world-airport-codes.com/images/info.gif (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/victoria-railway-stn.-8496.html)Victoria Railway Stn. (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/victoria-railway-stn.-8496.html)GB493ZEP

United Kingdomhttp://www.world-airport-codes.com/images/info.gif (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/bus-station-8012.html)Bus Station (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/bus-station-8012.html)GB493ZFCUnited Kingdomhttp://www.world-airport-codes.com/images/info.gif (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/bus-station-8135.html)Bus Station (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/bus-station-8135.html)GB493ZEQ

Sadly the formating went astray but you can get the idea
Nowt new really

or historically the other way round
Railway Air Services - RAS (http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/ras.htm)

[groundedforgood]

United Kingdom
http://www.world-airport-codes.com/images/info.gif (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/colmore-row-bus-stn-7989.html)Comore Row Bus Stn (http://www.world-airport-codes.com/united-kingdom/colmore-row-bus-stn-7989.html)GB493ZBC

No criticism of you at all WL :), (this is aimed at the website mentioned)but:
There's no such thing as this so called bus station :=. Admittedly there is a line of bus stops on Colmore Row Birmingham, but to call it a bus staion is frankly laughable. I'm gobsmacked that they should call it thus! Who supplied the information for this section of the website? The Cousins? I wonder just how many other places are as misrepresented as this is.

[crewmeal]

We have Virgin Railways and Virgin Atlantic - admittedly different Companies, but maybe one day we will see a Pendalino or Voyager at Heathrow ready to take Pax to the Midlands, North West and Scotland and back. Perhaps E ticketing would be available for both plane and train journey on one booking.

National Express - thats another story!!!

[scrivenger]

well veolia all ready operate near me..........they empty our bins!!!!

[INKJET]

The key is in intergrated transport policy as expoused the fomer DPM John Prescott, sadly other than eating (then barffing up meat pies) he did sod all.

Manchester and Birmingham have good rail links, but where its needed is LHR & LGW (Southampton is ok too) if LHR had a mainline in from the North then the like of bmi services to LBA & MME would be dead, very few people use these routes if going city to city.

If i were running LHR and pushing for a new runway i would push very hard for a mainline rail service into LHR and not just a branch line