trainee salaries

[l39]

Hi everyone here
If anyone get any info on trainee salaries? I have read on adverts that its circa £17k, but when reading these posts I’m not too sure any more!

Is It about to change with the new pay deal.

Salary while at CATC will be about £10,000, with a modest living allowance.

On leaving the college sucessfully it will rise to £15,000 and then £16,000 a year later.
thanks

[smellysnelly2004]

10k at college, no living allowance
15-18k when posted to unit (depending on unit)
19k on 2nd anniversary of joining NATS
25-29k(plus shift allowance) when you validate (if b4 3 years)
46k (plus shift) when validated AND 3 years service (this is for highest band units)

I think that's all correct but it's from memory. You can always call HR and aks - they're the peeps in the know;)

[SACrIGGER]

As a current trainee I can confirm the the salary is £10,000 PA, with no living allowance.

This equates to a monthly wage of approx £650, with the average B&B costing £400 a month, and flat shares costing £300 a month, you don't end up with much left over.

[l39]

and what if the trainee has to support his family?
i wonder if NATS provides any help for this..:rolleyes:

[l39]

its aimed to reward those who get through the course and validate to become a useful and productive controller.
A trainee at the college on £10k who HAS to buy food, pay rent, get to the college etc etc There is now no paid trips home, so if thre is a trainee with a family then he will be going home every weekend - part of the responsibilty of being a parent.
I meant U may have wife/husband/kids/mortgage and 10k a year will not be financially viable.

[EGMC]

When I sat my Stage1 in Oct '06, the nice ATCO speaker at the end was holding this (http://natscareers.co.uk/PDFs/NATS%20Salary%20Information.pdf) .... but there must be a 2007 version flapping around somewhere.

If you are not happy with living on THAT you could either:

A> get a part-time job at the weekend [maybe even at Bournemouth airport... maybe, even be cheeky and be an assistant in the tower] and make T!
B> apply to HSBC for a proffessional studies loan
C> defer, work somewhere NOW to earn so that you can live a better life whilst training!

...But IMHO what they give you WILL suffice, [that is, if not having to support a family of dependants]

... I've spent 4 silly years at Uni, and 10K for a student is a NICE life I can tell ya!

EGMC

[Defruiter]

Sadly they don't.

While you are at the college, you will find the money situation very tight.

I am not coping very well with it...I think the bank manager would quite agree ;)

If you don't have any money saved up for a rainy day, like I didn't then it will be very tight. (I'm just glad I have the parents as a back up plan - not that I have had to use them yet, but they are there just in case ;) )

[Jagohu]

At Eurocontrol it's like this:
Phase 1 (theoretical part) ~1240 eur basic + 600 eur daily allowance
Phase 2 (simulator in Lux) ~1500 eur basic + some daily allowance for a while but still in total less than in the first 3 months
Phase 3 (Maastricht familirization) ~2300 eur basic
Phase 4 (OJT) same as Phase 3 + shift allowance

The values are netto after tax and for an expatriate. For a Dutch it's 16% less in the NL.

[high-hopes]

Ok

say you've completed your NATS college phase and you are off to an unit for further training.

Will your training be on a shift pattern, and therefore allow for shift pay, or you will still be on a college shift, say Mon to Fri, until you validate ?

Or, perhaps, you are on a shift pattern, but with no shift pay ? :ouch:

Thank you

[7000]

Or, perhaps, you are on a shift pattern, but with no shift pay ?

sadly this is now the case. the basic salary does go up (£18k at LACC or LTCC I believe), however, until you validate there is no unsociable hours payment. I believe the money is going towards an upcoming NATS initiative... Destinations 2: The Return Ticket.

[Gonzo]

l39,

and what if the trainee has to support his family?
i wonder if NATS provides any help for this..:rolleyes:

Sorry, not sure what you mean here. Are you advocating that those with families should get paid more?

[l39]

Well Gonzo,
In my opinion there should be such support. I am not thinking about who’s gonna be paid more or less. I am not the person in the position of taking such decisions.
But as I said it was according to me and if it’s up to me I would support young parents -trainee. A lot of reasons for that.
Sorry if I misled you somehow

[BDiONU]

Well Gonzo,
In my opinion there should be such support. I am not thinking about who’s gonna be paid more or less. I am not the person in the position of taking such decisions.
But as I said it was according to me and if it’s up to me I would support young parents -trainee. A lot of reasons for that.
Sorry if I misled you somehow
Can you explain your, to my mind, curious idea that if you chose to have a family early then your employer should assist you in supporting that particular choice?

BD

[Gonzo]

Also depends what one means by 'support'. Trainees,as with anyone in NATS, can call on either Employee Assistance, or the independent company Validum (Valium? Something like that!) for Advice and support. Or were you talking about monetary support? I have to say I'd be a bit hacked off if there were two different pay scales, one 'with child', one 'without'.

[Jerricho]

Be thankful you're getting paid at all.

Nav Canada's trainees have the pleasure of paying for their testing, pre-course package and tuition which I believe is something like $5500 for and IFR student before the start day one in the IFR training unit.........and don't get paid anything until they have finished in the school.

Not trying to be an asshole (it does come naturally though), I'm just stating fact.

[l39]

So as the idea is curious- if you were the employer why wouldn’t you help?
As for the choice –sometimes you don’t plan it.
Anyway, I just wanted to get info what a trainee is supposed to face

[Gonzo]

Not trying to be an asshole (it does come naturally though)

It's a sad state of affairs when you start to pre-empt the insults.... :p

[Jerricho]

Once again, just stating facts mate :ouch:


;)

[BDiONU]

So as the idea is curious- if you were the employer why wouldn’t you help?
Discrimination on lifestyle choice.
As for the choice –sometimes you don’t plan it.
In this day and age, with all of the contraception methods available? shurely shome mishtake.

BD

[flower]

On 10K you would be entitled to income support if you have dependant children.

[45 before POL]

Yes Flower is correct that income support can be claimed.
The bottom line though is Nats is now a Business(a not for profit one:} ) and unfortunately over the last 2 years has cut back entry salaries, and many think they may have taken it a bit far this time. However they are looking at the basis that most pilots that train fund their own training and generally are bonded, which Nats do not. Also like jerricho stated other atc providers charge the trainee.
Please remember the course was 18 months long. now less than a year so pay does rise quickly, if not as high to start as use to be. Above all you do this job because you want to. Ask a controller what they would do otherwise and apart from wanting to be on a sunbed sipping sangrias in the sun, most admit to it being a great job:)

[7000]

On 10K you would be entitled to income support if you have dependant children.
Correct.. And I'm sure the Citizens Advice would have a few words of advice to any 19 year old budding trainee who has no kids and is thus being positively discriminated against by not receiving a 'like-for-like' salary in his job.
Last time I checked no promising young police probationers (just to pick one example) were getting family allowances from their employer, why should NATS operate differently?!
As flower mentions there are financial support systems put in place by HMG to help with these things, it is not the employers responsibility, espically if you accept the T's and C's beforehand.

[richyinnewcastle]

I'm quite looking forward to my 10k, better than the -4K a year I'm on now ;) who'd be a uni student these days eh?

If only they did Tesco value kids...

:ok:

[Minihiggerz]

Let's all go out and have kids early so they'll give us more money! i think 10 grand's quite decent to live on. i get about that now. however i live at home and only pay about £100 rent to my parents. actually looking forward to the freedom!

[niknak]

On £10K a year you'd be entitled to every benefit under the sun, it's just a case of people like 139 getting off their arses and taking the initiative instead of thinking the world owes them a living.

For those who think I'm being harsh, have a look at all those folk in this life who make their own way, fund all their own career goals themselves and earn a lot less than the prospective salaries which NATS or non NATS ATCOs will earn during their lifetime.

[high-hopes]

Let's all go out and have kids early so they'll give us more money! i think 10 grand's quite decent to live on. i get about that now. however i live at home and only pay about £100 rent to my parents. actually looking forward to the freedom!

I think it's common practice, but you'll have to speak to the DSS, more than NATS ;)

I am not looking forward to the 10K phase but I guess without a rainy day you wouldn't appreciate the sunshine !

[Angrel]

just to say, being at the college now, I have looked into claiming any kind of income support. For a single (or divorced :} ) person, the help from the government is Working Tax Credit which equates to roughly £9.50 a week.

better than a kick in the teeth and it pays for a couple of beers at least!

for anyone who is interested in reclaiming money from El Tonio try;

www.entitledto.org (http://www.entitledto.org)

[Conspiracy Theories]

With regards to the Nav Canada thing, I know that the students pay for their on licence although i would like to know what the pass rate is in Canada that go on to become valid ATC.
I think that if i'm going to be made to pay for my training, i would like to think i'm going to get out the other end as well as being able to decide which discipline i would like to do (area, approach, aerodrome).
I think like that, from what i've seen there seems to be a majority that want to do either approach or aerdrome.

What do you think Jericho?

[Jerricho]

*Dons rant hat*
Paying for ATC training? I'm not a huge proponent of it. I acknowledge that ATC is now a business world over, and training costs are huge. My honest opinion is that we are not always going to get the best people in the seat simply due to some individuals financial situation. I've read the numerous threads on here and spoken to wannabes world over who have simply said "I don't think I can afford to do it" (mortgage, kiddies etc). I've heard counter arguments what about doctors, dentists etc, and I agree to a point. I've been given **** for saying this before, but anyone with a lot of money (or rich parents) can obtain a pilots licence.........throw enough money at it and a CPL or ATPL isn't totally unobtainable. Same with university degrees.

Not everyone can be an Air Traffic Controller. You can study your ass off till you're crosseyed and can recite chapter and verse MATS/MANOPs. But you still have to be able to put that headset on and separate aircraft. It's an aptitude. Sure, we have aptitude testing to just get in the door, but how many OTJIs out there have seen a trainee be able to do it to a point, but not make that final step? It sucks, but it's a fact. How many potential applicants who would make the grade though are not given the chance because of a lack of cash?

The pass rate here in Canada certainly doesn't install a warm glow inside. Fairly recently IFR (Enroute and Approach/Terminal) training has been shipped out from the Training "College" in Ontario to the ACCs. We haven't seen one licence from it (first course started 2005). These are the guys and gals who have had to pay for their interviews, their introduction package (a feckin CD is sent out before they start for them to "self study".....bollocks) and for their tuition. As I said, $5500 straight up before they walk in the door. Bloody training can be hard enough without the added pressure of lack-o-cash. The do start getting paid when they begin their OJI oon the floor, but that can be 9-12 months after commencing the course.

*rant off*

[JustaFew]

A few of our assistants have not persued applications with NATS due to that reason alone with families to support. Does NATS really have that many applications it believes would-bees should pay for their own training? Has there
been a reduction in applicants, I wonder...

[Minihiggerz]

i think there's been a reduction/people droopping out. im convinced it's the reason for the open test day in manchester that i'm going to tomorrow!! it's even been advertised on local radio!

[Medway Control]

'' i think there's been a reduction/people droopping out. im convinced it's the reason for the open test day in manchester that i'm going to tomorrow!! it's even been advertised on local radio!''

Not sure this is a fact, i think its more to do with demand rather than supply... NATS need atco's... NATS needs to find them soon. And NATS are possibly trying to make the application system easier. Is this going to be successful, only time will tell...:hmm:

[MancBoy]

My sister heard the advert on Galaxy in Manchester which only stated you can earn up to 85k.

Didn''t mention anything about the starting salary!

I think people will be surprised if they turn up and hear it's 'only' 10k

[Gonzo]

The numbers of applications is steadily rising. Days like tomorrow in Manchester and London (up to 300 in each location undertaking the stage 1 tests) have been arranged to prevent things backing up.

The process is now very quick, as rapid as five weeks from submitting application to starting a course. Things are not getting easier.

[Gonzo]

Yeah. You know, I sometimes feel sorry for my victims, errr, I mean my interviewees. If I had gone through this selection process when I applied, I'm sure I wouldn't have got in!

[gingernut]

I went to one in about 1990, had to do some daft psychometric test and aptitude tests straight out of an 11+ crib book.

On passing, we got a tour of the tower at Manchester, by a retired ATC man - dark skinned fella, I think he was called "Dicky" -thin guy with dark glasses, seemed quite a nice guy- sort of normal and obviously passionate about his role.

[Gonzo]

I went through in 97. A lot of the initial tests are still hte same, but teh interview stage is considerably different now.

[richyinnewcastle]

NATS should get themselves along to graduate recruitment days at universities.. Lots of keen eager people with an open mind who are willing and able to meet the grade you would hope.. and like I said earlier, the 10k is better than the -4k they will have been used to for the last 3 years! :ok:

[eastern wiseguy]

graduate recruitment days at universities
Being a graduate is NO indication of ability.....back in 85 when I went through we had a decent salary AND allowances....three courses going through at one time(about 25-30 on each course) ahhh those were the days ...and probably why they are so keen to save cash these days!!!:( :(

[richyinnewcastle]

No no, not suggesting that at all, but if they took on people like other graduate schemes do, i.e. people with a 2:1 or above, they would at least be getting people who have an aptitude to learn and are willing to work, which I'm sure goes down quite well during training, even if they don't have the natural flair required (I would imagine) on the simulators.

I'm not suggesting you should have a degree to go through training either.. just in case I touch some nerves :) just saying there is a lot of hard working graduates out there who might not think about NATS if they don't see or hear about it.

rich

[Gonzo]

just saying there is a lot of hard working graduates out there who might not think about NATS if they don't see or hear about it.

Then we're talking visibility and promotion here. It would be interesting to hear what, if any, involvement NATS has with universities.

FYI I'm going to a college near Farnborough for a careers day on the 27th. I've been told there will be up to 4000 people there.

gulp :ooh:

[high-hopes]

Are the terms and conditions of trainees likely to change between now and until the rest of 2007 courses get under way ?

In plain English, is the meagre and yet vital 10k college pay likely to be reduced in the near future ?

As there's a massive drive to recruit new fresh blood, and having seen the very generic adverts which give very little information about the job and its T's and C's, could this mean that the new starters won't be expecting much in terms of salaries and therefore the company could take advantage of that ?
"if they apply knowing they get 10k, they would do it even for 8k" and so forth...

regards

[Gonzo]

IMHO yes, at some point in the future the salary will go down. The 'when' is hard to say.

The story is that in the last negotiations, NATS described an eventual desire for not paying out salary whilst at the college.

Whenever I'm asked about this, I always warn candidates to really seriously consider whether deferring for a long period is a good idea, as the T+Cs might change in the intervening period.

[clr4takeoff]

Hi guys and gals,
In canada, student have to pay to take the ab initio training...
It's 3500 CAD for IFR (ACC) and 2500 CAD for VFR (tower). It takes about 4 month before you start making a student wage of about 2000 CAD per month, in a tower. It can take a year before you start making something in the ACC, 3500 CAD per month. And no, you don't chose between IFR and VFR, neither you choose your posting...
So please don't complain (or should we start complaining ?? :( )

Anyway, I love the job, and the money is good when you get validated ! :hmm:

[goldfrog]

10K whilst training would cheer up my daughter who is doing a degree so she can work for the NHS and earn bugger all up against a controller. She does her day at college, her evenings in OneStop and I have to support her.

[BDiONU]

She does her day at college, her evenings in OneStop and I have to support her.
Bless! So underneath all that front you're actually quite a nice guy, you just hide it well ;)

BD

[anotherthing]

clr4takeoff

I understand what you are saying about the fact that in Canada you have to pay. Maybe you should start complaining!!

Just because one countries ATCOs have to pay does not mean that it is right or proper for NATS to do so - from Jerrichos post (number 35 in this thread), one getrs the impression that the Canadian system is not exactly one to emulate anyway!!

That fact is that cost of living in the UK is very high. The college does not provide student accomodation (even at reduced rates in the manner that university does).

The college is based in Bournemouth on the English 'Riviera' again not cheap. The college itself if a few miles out of town with no regular public transport links hence the need for a car or bike.

Joe public in the UK (and I will wager in most other countries) does not have a clue about what an ATCO does - we either wave table tennis bats in the air, or stare at computers all day whilst the 'heroes' in the cockpit do the hard work(!).

NATS is crap at projecting to the public the reality of a career as an ATCO - the PR department is either useless, or more likely, has its hands tied by a management which is increasingly anti ATCO/ATSA/ATCE.

For Paul Barron et al to turn round and cite the airlines and the fact that people pay for a pilots licence is tosh. Little Jane and Johnny grow up thinking 'I want to be a nurse/pilot/vet' etc - they have not got a clue about ATC and therefore no aspiration to do it.

The fact is that until ATC is a recognised skill, and until the myth about what pilots do compared to ATCOs is broken, then people will not want to pay for training in the UK in the numbers that NATS is trying to recruit (i.e. about 50 to 60 students a term).

This is even more prevalant when the reason that NATS is taking on so many students per term becomes apparent - not because we suddenly need a huge increase inATCOs at units, but because we expect such a large failure rate!!

Again, back to Jerrichos post - I agree entirely with him - almost anyone can obtain a pilots licence by throwing money and time at it, a hell of a lot less can pass ATCO training given the required timescales and training regime.

[chevvron]

In my opinion (having witnessed new recruits for over 30 years) grads are the last people we should employ as trainee ATCOs, the majority having no interest in the job, just in getting as much money as possible; they'd be better off becoming 'something in the city'.

[rickypbrown]

Very poignant post there another thing! Just wondering is it possible to work overtime when you're at your initial posting working to get qualified? If so, is the pay similar?

[Minihiggerz]

I was at work the other day talking to someone who applied last year, but failed stage one, because I'm doing the open test day today and wanted some more info. A couple of guys sat on the same table as us asked what ATC was, one saying "is that the people who wave those things at the planes??" I was like, yes, I'm sitting practising tests so I can wave some tabletennis bats in the air. Another asked what an ATC was if it wasnt that. I looked at him and just said "you talk to the planes". Obv, you don't literally talk to the planes, it's the pilots, but I dont think he was smart enough to even realise! The first guy later thought he was actually a "genious" as he could divide 36 by 6!

[INCA9]

I honestly think Anotherthing has hit the nail on the head!

Kids don't grow up wanting to be an ATCO, most don't have any real understanding of what it is; most kids interested in aviation want to be pilots, as that's what gets all the attention!

If Big Bad Barron and his boys want to make ATCO training and recruitment similar to the pilot world, they need to get their heads around that fact! In the current climate, no-one is gonna fork out thousands of pounds to train to be an ATCO, it's just not realistic, instead you'll just loose good quality candidates to other careers that don't insult their potential recruits with such pitiful wages.

(And before I get the stock response from some qualified ATCO earning £70k+ a year about 'they should want to do the job for nothing', trust me, that's easy for you to say whilst you peruse your stocks and shares portfolio.
I'm an ATCO and I love my job, but the reality is that I couldn't have done it on the salary they are now offering)

I've seen a fair few of the new recruits coming thru the centres and college for visits etc before they start at the college, and they definitely seem to be getting younger and a little less worldly by the course. It may be no bad thing and they may all come out the other end as sparkling new ATCO's. But from the pass rates i've seen recently, that definitely doesn't seem to be the case!!

If you want grown-up, mature, responsible and committed trainees, the type who have seen a little of life and are now ready to throw their everything into doing the job they love, then you need to offer a wage that at least allows them to survive!!

It's not all NATS' fault, of course they will try and get away with it if they can. I guess we can also thank the union for negotiating such a laughably poor pay deal for new recruits whilst looking after those who are already earning towards the top end of the pay scale (job for the boys me-thinks!!)

That's all I have to say about that!

[Fidgell]

I believe that NATS should consider a graduated pay scheme with the new recruits. Why not make initial recruits pay a small amount for starting the course and then give them it back upon sucessful completion of the first module. From there each module would incur an increase in pay, indicitive of the students effort and the courses difficulty. This is how, afterall, we get paid throughout our operational lives with spine points et al.

I agree that whilst 10k does involve a reasonable amount of good financial self care, but there are people earning less than that in the Bournemouth area who cope with families etc, if YOU as an applicant feel that's unacceptable/impossible then this means it aint for you!

University students complain constantly but get on with it and get through it under much greater financial adversity so suck it up and remember why youre applying in the first place and what salary structure youll expect at the end which is far beyond that of almost every other career with similar required qualification levels!

If youre only in it for the money youre going for the wrong job!

[ShuttleSixYankee]

Well put Fidgell.

I've spent the past 3 years living on much less than 10K whilst studying, and like all other students, we just get on with it.
Also I think if you really want to get into NATS (like I do ;)), and become an ATCO, the money shouldn't be an issue.

[INCA9]

That's exactly the kind of nonsensical response i'd expected!!!

How many families do you know who are living on 10k exactly?

And this comparison with university life is technically flawed: University students get student loans, access to further financial support if they find themselves in real trouble, subsidised housing, great transport links to and from their place of study, tax exemptions...and the list goes on!!

Although it refers to itself as a college, Bournemouth is in fact a place of work and so the students (employees is a more accurate term) should be rewarded accordingly.

Don't patronise these people by telling them to 'suck it up'

[ShuttleSixYankee]

Even with student loans, subsidised transport and 'further funds' which are actually hard to get hold of, the figure is still way below the 10K mark. Stands at around 6K at an absolute maximum, and that is here in London.

With your point about having to take care of a family, I understand but my point was merely pointing to the fact that if someones really wants to become an ATCO he/she would naturally make allowances for it to happen. If it means taking out a bank loan for the duration of the training then so be it.

Maybe you think differently, but my opinion tells me that if you want something really badly, a little sacrifice here and there is going to be inevitable.

[Jerricho]

This topic pops up time and time again, and it always falls into the two camps of "suck it up buttercup, you'll do it for the love of the job" or "Oh woe it the student ATCO".

ATCO training is hard enough in it's own entity, be it an ab-initio off the street or a licenced controller changing sector/speciality. You have to be focused on the task at hand with minimal distractions to your life (Friday nights at "The Seagull" were classified as team bonding.......god that place was a dive). I honestly dislike the comparisons to the university thing, as while there are some parallels, there are also major differences.

When Gonzo and I went through CATC, I think the system was pretty damn good. Admitted, we were very well paid, but the syllabus and course structure was fine. Now I believe not only the pay thing (or lack there of) but the course has been restructured and changed. Another sad indictment to how aviation is going down the ****ter with respect to the power of the buck and decision making. I nearly had a conniption the day I heard a certain ANS's new training system was grouping information that student ATCOs were to be taught into "need to know" and "nice to know".......you should have seen what was in the "nice to now" section (was discussed in this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=197342))

When it comes down to it, sacrifices do have to be made (believe me, I think I'm a very good authority on that one). I guess the cash thing could be put down as a preparation thing, planning ahead and all. But I'm 100% certain that guys and gals with the goods to do the job are thinking twice about applying, or not at all simply based on some of the issues raised here.

[flower]

For anyone who thinks 10K is ok and acceptable then I suggest you go take a look at just how much rent costs in the area. If NATS want to find subsidised housing then fair enough .
There is no way that anyone coming from a second job and who has any responsibilities financially can afford to live on 10K and if all we are going to get are kids out of university or those who have never worked then it is NATS and thus our loss.
Ok I went through some years back but those who were generally successful were definitely in the camp of second jobbers not students.

Students don't have the time to go out to get a second job to support them it isn't like university where they just work so many hours a week.

The loss of the slightly older candidate will IMHO jeopardise the quality of recruitment

[Defruiter]

R.e the rent:

Im paying £440 a month - leaving me just over £250 to pay bills, loans etc etc....not a great deal!

[rickypbrown]

Jerricho,

You have a very interesting point there...I went through selection before Christmas and in each of the stages, it appeared I was the only one there with aviation experience/interest. Was actually quite surprising as I believe to truly be a good atco you must have an interest in what you are doing!

Reading through the posted thread, it's terribly daunting to hear that some controllers have been put aside college graduates lacking both in knowledge and interest!

[loubylou]

I thought that the 10K was only at the college, and from what I've gathered, no one is at the college longer than 6 months.
Then the money went up when you got your first posting , then up again on validation?

louby

[NeoDude]

I am currently in the middle of my second application to NATS. I currently have a well paid job, a wife, a mortgage, 2 cars on finance, 1 2yo and twins on the way.

Will the 10k starting wage stop me from going through with the application? will it heck. I consider myself lucky to be getting anything should I make it to the college. It's a small sacrafice for a stable enjoyable career for life. Yes I will have to make changes, but they will be worth it in the long run.

If you want this job enough the 10k is a no-brainer.

[rodan]

If you want this job enough the 10k is a no-brainer.
This is your personal experience, and it may be true for many. However, the overall economics question for NATS is 'will sufficient people of a sufficient quality want the job enough to apply on these terms'?

As has been said, people who really want the job will make whatever arrangements are necessary - saving hard before starting, taking out a loan, borrowing from family, surviving on their spouse's income, or just plain sucking it up. But are there enough of these people? I suspect NATS doesn't think so, which is why they are pushing the misleading £85k figure for all it's worth in the recruiting bumf - to attract people who are financially motivated by big numbers instead of aviation enthusiasts.

There is a middle ground, though, between the extremes of the spotter who will willingly flagellate themself to be given a shot at their dream job and the chancer who happens to see the £85k figure in an ad in the back of FHM, and I expect that that middle ground is where the best candidates are. A percentage of these high-quality people that NATS wants have other options that don't require them to impoverish themselves and their family to prove their worth. Perhaps it should be kept in mind that these people are applying for a professional career, not trying to join a monastery.

[Defruiter]

and from what I've gathered, no one is at the college longer than 6 months.


Thats only if you go aerodrome/approach, which many people don't.

If you go area (which the majority do) you will be there 9 months.

NB - those are the minimum, if you fail any parts then obviously, you will be there longer....

[Minihiggerz]

I had a shocking experience today at the open test day. At the Q&A with an ATCO bit, one guy kept asking questions such as "do you need to be good at maffs?" "do you need to be good at english to talk to people?" "how do you know if this is the career for you?"

IMO, if you need to ask the latter, it isnt the career for you! but the majority of people had obviously just heard about it on the radio, where they were apparently advertising it and giving a salary.

I managed to get my dad's name into the discussion and the ATCO i was talking to knew him ;)

[smellysnelly2004]

Seems to me that dangling 85k is inevitably going to attract a percentage of people motivated PURELY by the money, however surely this kind of person would not tolerate earning 10k for 9 months?
Even on 10k a year with a family etc, there is always a way to make it work. Problem being, you'll probably have to take financial risks, uproot your kids etc etc. Some folk won't be willing to take such a big chance when loved ones lives are directly affected. This is no indication of their ability or potential to be a good controller. So the 10k starting wage will stop a number of perfectly able candidates from applying which can't be beneficial to NATS. However, as has been previously mentioned, there are plenty of professions where you get paid little or nothing during training. Personally I think it stinks but it hasn't stopped me from starting in March .(Mr Barclaycard gonna take a hammering for 9 months methinks!) :eek: :eek:

[Gonzo]

Sorry, just got home from the test day in London.

Minihiggerz, I and my colleagues had to field some very daft questions today! I'm convinced they're getting dafter by the week!

MancBoy, I'm in! What do you reckon, 7% APR?

[flower]

Gonzo,
was there a good cross section of applicants or do we now see a trend in the type applying ?

[Gonzo]

Well, today was an exception to be honest, because of the recent adverts placed on radio and in newspapers that more or less described a 'recruitment open day', where one could turn up and do the stage one tests without having submitted an application through the system. So we had many people just turn up and see what it was about.

It was notable that there were many more people in their 40s (possibly 50s too) than usual.

It was also notable that there were lots of people from ethnic minorities there, which is good; as ATCOs we aren't exactly what one would call an ethnically representative workforce!

However, I was concerned by the number of people there who had difficulty expressing themselves in English.

However, there were one or two who seemed very switched on and asked a lot of pertinent questions.

[MancBoy]

Gonzo, when testing are you now having to bear in mind the ability of a candidate to attain at least level 4 english proficiency?

And then are they being made aware that they will have to have lessons to get to level 6 standard.

so they can talk proper like what i do!

[flower]

"It was also notable that there were lots of people from ethnic minorities there, which is good; as ATCOs we aren't exactly what one would call an ethnically representative workforce!"

How very true, I have always wondered why that should be the case

[MancBoy]

Too many scots in ATC, that's the problem!

How many turned up today then Gonzo?

[Minihiggerz]

there were about 300 in manchester today apparently! i thought it was going to be on a much smaller scale.

i couldnt really think of any questions to ask, as the majority of things that I could possibly even think of asking, my dad knows the answer to! he's already told me far more than i really need to know!

one thing i was wondering tho, out of the tests, i have read that you need 70% to pass, but how does that get worked out?? 'cause it's practically impossible to do all the questions, although i did manage to do all the spatial awareness ones, so how does it get worked out??

[REVOLUTION]

Whenever this debate comes up people always point out the difficulties of raising a family on £10k p.a.

On my course of 30+ people only 1 had children, and unfortunately they didn't get through the college.

I was 24 when I joined NATS and was one of the older ones on my course.

What I am saying is I think £10k p.a. for 9 months whilst studying at the college is not a lot of money however it is not an unreasonable amount for a young guy/girl to live on. And the majority of NATS students are young guys/girls.

[GT3]

With regard to the "family" person who is aged in thier late 20s/early 30s going through the college. This is sadly not what NATS is after. They would prefer the 18 year old who can give 40+ :eek: years service to get the best return from their training investment. Sadly in a profit driven era that is what is high on the list of considerations.

But does being 18 and not having seen another job/university make for a weaker candidate and future atco?

[Minihiggerz]

18 year olds are more adaptible to learning. they're used to school/college and being told what to do. personally, i've just applied having been working for 6 months and god, it toughens you up!

[flower]

"But does being 18 and not having seen another job/university make for a weaker candidate and future ATCO?"

Nothing wrong with 18 year olds at all we were all once there but when you reduce the pot of potential candidates to only the very young then you can very much change the dynamic of the job.
If I am right don't you have to be over 20 to hold a radar rating or has that changed ?

Whilst salaried you cannot get a self improver loan from a bank, banks also only lend on the money you earn they do not base it on the potential earnings you may get even if they are only 9 months away. I understand the initial increase is to just 14K as well.
On £650 if you are paying out over £400 in rent where does that leave you with running a car, insurance, food and household bills.

I still say having such a low salary will prevent some very fine candidates from attending the college, not all have parents who can support them and not all will be in financial position to cope with even 3 months at that wage.
I still think it is one of the most short sighted moves we made. IF NATS provided subsidised accommodation and the amount of work compared to that of a student at Uni so second jobs were possible then fair enough but unless things have changed even more radically than I am aware then they will not be able to subsidise their income at all through additional paid employment

There are a number of organisations who pay salaries whilst they train people as well, comparing us to the airlines is unfair as has been stated before how many dream as they go through school of being an ATCO most have never even heard of the job.

[Steakpie]

I've been reading through all of this and having a little chuckle at some of the views. I'm currently studying at the college, in my late twenty's with a wife, toddler and a baby due soon.

There seems to be a few people who think that people with families should stop moaning about the 10K and a few who think they should get more pay but lets clarify -

Rent is about £600 per month with bills, Nursery is about £550 and your looking at £150-£200 a month for food/petrol/insurance etc.

Now, there is a bit of help out there too, unless your a single parent you should have two wages coming into the house, you can claim tax credits and nursery allowence (about £350) you have child allowence and depending on you circumstance you can also apply for housing benefit.

Balance this with those who don't have families, they pay about £400 for B&B's about £100-£150 for food/petrol etc and usually have to travel home to see friends and families etc because they don't live in bournemouth with them.

As you can see, both camps are equally screwed with the finances so before accepting the job do your sums and see if you can manage, it is very important that when you get here you are not worrying about the finances - there are far to many other things to worry about!

Ok - now the rant, the person who said that the tarinees with families are more likely to fail. - just think, who do you think is going to be the more motivated to pass this course? and from the experience of the course I'm on it is the youngest in the classes that are really struggling, I find Having my family here help to motiveate me and me support when you get to those really low points.

As far as future courses, there is no plans to increase the wage (good joke though). they can't lower the wage as Minimum Wage means we must get £9957 pa. but they are considering the student route where you wouldn't be employed by Nats but would recieve a tax free bursary. although a good bet that it would be significantly less that £10k.

Steakpie.

[Defruiter]

If I am right don't you have to be over 20 to hold a radar rating or has that changed ?


AFAIK and from what I have been told, that is correct.

18 to hold a student licence... I'm lucky ;)

18 year olds are more adaptible to learning. they're used to school/college and being told what to do

Have to agree, I'm doing fine so far :}

[Gonzo]

But does being 18 and not having seen another job/university make for a weaker candidate and future atco?


Interesting question GT3.

Remind me how old you and I were when we went through the college? :cool:

[Number2]

'18 year olds are more adaptible to learning. they're used to school/college and being told what to do'

Have to disagree to some extent. When I went through the College, it was the younger members that struggled on the non multi-choice papers on the Area Course. As for being told what to do....that was hard for some of us when some instructors had not been operational for 15+ years.

[Fidgell]

INCA9, I actually DO know 2 famillies living on that kind of income and theyre much better financial planners than some of the controllers I work with!!!
Just tell me one thing... WHY should NATS pay trainees at all? You say they (Im guessing that means you?) should be "rewarded" from day 1?! Rewarded for what exactly? Being offered a place on one of the most sought after and over subscribed training courses in the country? For having the earning potential to top 99% of similarly qualified people in the country?
Dont worry though, most who dont have the aptitude wont actually get to the 10k as that means being there a whole year successfully!!!:mad:
Its a hard course, but a worthwhile one and 9 months of careful financial planning and hard work will set you up FOR LIFE..... unlike 4 yrs of Uni on nothing and with no guarantee of ANY job at the end never mind the earning potential and job security NATS provides... But heck if you need further reward than that and want to complain... Be a farmer!!!:{

[loubylou]

Flower - you have to 18 to hold a tower validation
21 to hold a radar validation - not ratings
Minihiggerz - I agree that being 18 may mean that you are more able to absorb and learn - but be careful about expecting to be told what to do in ATC - that is not a quality that is desirable - we need people who are able to think for themselves and not people who expect to be spoonfed. You keep mentioning your Father - I'm sure he would agree

louby

[Jerricho]

they're used to school/college and being told what to do

........and that's a very identifiable problem for trainees. The point must be reached where they can go from "being told what to do" to actually using the old grey matter and stepping up to do the job. It's this transition from being a mouthpiece for the OJI sitting next to you that causes a great deal of consternation and failure.

[anotherthing]

Minihiggerz

Being 18 may mean you are more able to absorb and learn - but the question is will an 18 year old get off their butt and do it?!!

I was over 30 when I went through the course and posted higher exam marks than the majority of my colleagues.

I did not work that hard at the exams to tell the truth - all this talk about having to study 2 or 3 hours a night is in my mind OTT, but I was more prepared to do the work than some of my younger colleagues. As for the sims, if you are middle aged upwards, then keeping up with the flow of the traffic may be slightly more difficult but it is a lot to do with aptitude - which is not age specific.

IMHO the best course is one with a healthy cross section of society in both age and backgrounds - it helps with teamwork and the varied experiences bring some good things to the college (in the same way that the youngsters dragging the oldies out to let their hair down is an essential part) if you are a loner and not a team player, then this course and career is not for you.

NATS as a business may want youngsters who will give more return of service - but the reality is a course of 18 years olds will do less well than a course with a good mix of ages and backgrounds. Something NATS should be thinking of, as then they will need to recruit and train less people.

I think the current strategy of advertising on radio for 'drop in' sessions, with the lure of £85k is not the way to do recruiting - NATS needs to educate the public (through schools, colleges, unis etc - and maybe getting on TV) as to what ATCOs etc do - this will bring in more people who want to do the job - not just people after a wad of cash. However, this would involve more time and effort and although it would bring an overall better percentage of motivated people to initial interviews, it is not a course that the money driven, ignorant management will pursue.

I honestly reckon in a few years time (when management finally wake up to the fact that we will not be fully manned in 2008); it will be OJTIs etc who take the brunt of the blame, because NATS will say "we gave you the numbers of applicants - you failed to train them properly to enable them to validate"

Flower

I honestly think the reason there are few 'ethnic minorities' is because of the lack of public awareness as to what our job actually is - as said in my drivel above - if joe public does not know or understand what we do, then minorities are going to be even more minor in our business!!

NATS as a 'world leader' needs to get out on the street and tell people why we are a world leader. I arrange a few trips a year for a friends business - the travel agent I deal with thought that all we did was monitor computers (this was an educated, well travelled travel assistant, not some spotty 17yr old working for a high street chain). Hell you walk up to the check in desk at airports now and if you try to get extra leg room etc and state you are in ATC, some of the Cabin Crew say "what do you do for us?!! and this is a quote from an employee of the UKs 'favourite airline'!!

[Defruiter]

Flower - you have to 18 to hold a tower validation
21 to hold a radar validation - not ratings

According to the ANO:

PART A

Air traffic controller licences
Air Traffic Controller's Licence
1. —(1) The minimum age at which a person may be granted an Air Traffic Controller's Licence shall be 20 years.

(2) There shall be no maximum period of validity for an Air Traffic Controller's Licence.

(3) The privileges of an Air Traffic Controller's Licence are to—


(a) act as an air traffic controller for any sector or operational position for which a valid rating and endorsement and current unit licence endorsement are included in the licence; and

(b) exercise the privileges of a Student Air Traffic Controller's Licence.

[richyinnewcastle]

NATS should make a jazzy documentary about life as an ATC and get it on the beeb .. bet they would come flocking! it would also clear up the table tennis bats myth :) bonus.. :ok:

[Minihiggerz]

Loubylou - it wasn't my words saying that us 18 year olds were more used to being told what to do etc, the ATCO that was at the open day i went to yesterday actually said it himself. Obv, I realise that I'm not going to be spoonfed, I've been working for the past however many months since college and have certainly learnt a lot about the world from that time!

[niknak]

The facts are, ladies and gentlemen, NATS and non NATS airport operators have no trouble in getting applicants for trainee ATCO posts.
It's also a fact that, although the terms and conditions of NATS Cadets have been significantly reduced over the past few years, NATS ATCOs are still on line to earn significant sums of money once validated, (I know cos I have access to all the NATS pay scales).
So, if you haven't got the confidence to beg, scrape and borrow to live on £10k for 9 months, don't bother applying, go and find another job which will, within 2 years, pay you in excess of £40K per year.
I didn't come through the NATS route, I, like many others, paid for all my own training and risked a great deal and for me, (and the very large of the others) it paid off.
If NATS decided that you had to repay all your training costs, if you failed at any stage of the training, how many of you would be brave enough to see through the courage of your "career ambitions".
Very few I suspect...:rolleyes:

[Gonzo]

I stand to be corrected, but I don't see how someone can be on over 40k in two years, even if valid at a band 5 unit.

Once valid and on the third anniversary, yes.

[Minihiggerz]

a tad annoyed now, yes i am. having been told that you would only get an email today if you were successful in wednesday's tests, i arrived home from work to an email. i was about to dance round the house screaming, when i opened the email. only to find out it said i was unsuccessful. i just think it's slightly unfair, as 600 odd people will have got emails and thought that they were successful. but oh well, there's always next year, and it was only my first attempt after all!

[rodan]

Would you rather not be told at all? :confused:

[Minihiggerz]

i would have, yes, because they told us we wouldnt hear anything UNLESS we were successful. so i got my hopes up when i got the email. i was quite happy not to hear anything cos its what they told me would happen.

[Gonzo]

I'm not sure if this is the reason, but on our day in London a few candidates said they'd rather hear for definite, even if unsuccessful, so perhaps the policy was changed with hindsight.

[ShuttleSixYankee]

This is all rather interesting - making the initial selection like an open-day style. I presume that successful candidates who just turn up on the day without having submitted an application form will be asked for one after stage 1?
Have got my initial tests (2nd time round) in a couple of weeks (London).

SHT6Y

[Minihiggerz]

i supose that might be the reason, but it just seemed unfair to me. i had been getting my sister to check for me all day and had resigned myself to the fact that i hadnt passed. then got home and my dad told me to check my emails, found i had one and got my hopes up thinkiing i had passed, then found out i hadnt.

[high-hopes]

I am quite new to this, and only passed my final interview about a month ago, but this is really turning into another Airline wannabe scenario.

Are people in it for the love of it or just for the money and the status ?

I don't think there is much to discuss. There is an opportunity to become a controller with NATS. Part of the deal is that you have to go through a few months at 10k. Interested ? Good. Not interested, somebody else will take it.
There's people the other side of the radar investing over 60k in training without even a remote guarantee of a job in the end.
Is this 6-9 months at 10k such an insurmontable hurdle ?
If there were pilots schemes with the same conditions they would have to hold the selections at Wembley, noy in a hotel conference room.
Ok - watching a radar screen is maybe not the same as breaking through the clouds in a jet - but you get the idea ;)

Is the 85k lure going to attract people in it only for the money ?
Maybe. They won't make it anyway, it takes more than money drive to pass the selection.
I had passed the easyjet/CTC cadets aptitude tests previously, and I can say they were a walk in the park compared to the NATS tests.

Is the low initial pay going to put off good potential candidates ?
I am leaving a 23k secure employement contract to start the college.

I am going to be on the course at the age of 28. I don't believe it's going to be a disadvantage compared to an 18 years old.
The hardest part about studying is not spending hours on a book; It's actually understanding what's on the book. That's when you learn, otherwise you're just memorising. I think I can understand things better now than 10 years ago. I wouldn't worry about adult age studying, as long as interest and committment are there !

regards

HH

[Minihiggerz]

gonzo - just wondering, is it possible for me to find out how far off i was, or atleast how well i did? i'm just thinking, if i was a million miles off, there's not much chance I'll do any better next year - you've either got it or you've not as my dad keeps telling me.

[ShuttleSixYankee]

Minihiggerz - Call HR if you want to know your results, I'm sure you can find out that way.

[Ppdude]

"Ok - watching a radar screen is maybe not the same as breaking through the clouds in a jet"

I don't know.....watching mine every now and then gets a few people on the edge of their seats!

Anyway, I may be missing something but just a bit curious as to who is the famous dad frequently mentioned on this thread?

[Minihiggerz]

haha my dad? i've been told by a lot of people that i talk about him a lot, often completely unconnected to ATC. But if anyone out there knows him, it's Dave Higginbottom. he's not with NATS anymore, he's with BAE systems, i've heard he's actually had a few rants on here about him!

[MancBoy]

well i've never heard of him and i've been around a bit.

obviously not controversial

[Minihiggerz]

he left NATS in 99 and was only there for7 years, it would be mainly military to know him cos he did 22 years in the raf

[MancBoy]

that explains it then!

[VEGAS.]

Well, I'm off to Fareham on Friday for the final assessment and am very much looking forward to it. I'm not really thinking about the wages side of things just yet until the next selection phase is completed. If I'm offered a position at Bournmouth then thats when I'll have to sit down and work things out. I'm a serving Police Officer earning £35,000 a year. The massive reduction in pay does cause concern as does the move to the 'Sarf' and the possibilty of relocation once in post.

My missus is 100% behind me though because she knows I'm a plane nut that would be in their element working in this environment.

Besides I'm sick of dealing with scum!:ugh:

I've always loved to be part of this.

Does anyone know of a Trainee ATCO forum? :confused:

[Gonzo]

Vegas,

I'm off to Fareham on Friday

Might see you there then!

Does anyone know of a Trainee ATCO forum? :confused:

Once you get accepted on to a course you're given a log in to a trainee forum that's hidden on the NATS careers website, so you can get to know the others on your course before you start, and co-ordinate things such as lodging.

[Micecatcher]

I am just getting ready for stage 2 test and I wonder. I am a personal trainer and train people all week, if I will succeed to go to college do I have to be there 5 days a week? I mean lessons are till late evening hours??? I live with gf who studies fullt so I provide for the house and to be honest now I am getting worried that if I will pass I will not be able to afford that first three years.
Please Reply!!!!
Thanks!:sad:

[Micecatcher]

That is not good, seriously I have to have much more, have to start a succesful business I guess now!;)

[ImnotanERIC]

just think though, that if you get out of the college you will spend 12-18 months on a pittance of a salary compared to your "peers" who voted for an extra 20p on top of their massive wages (and therefore a 50% reduction in trainee wages).:suspect:

another example of our union looking out for it's weakest member.

[pugwash4x4]

trainee wages are an intriguing state of affairs- you get paid less as a trainee ATCO than you do as a trainee accountant, or in many cases as a trainee hairdresser! The benefits longterm are of course better, but its tough for someone in the late twenties, with a family (working as the main bread winner) to go from earning a reaonsable salary to pittance. Surely it can't be sensible for NATS to expect its students to get themselves into debt in order to do the job?

the rather fatuous argument that if you aren't prepared to work cheaply then you shouldn't bother turning up, is countered by the rather alarming number of ATCOs who seem to think that earning E900k is equitable! whats good for goose is clearly NOT good for the gander!

[goldfrog]

Pugwash

Why not look upon it as being the same as training to be anything that needs a degree, they have to do 3 years in uni and pay for the privilege or at least their parents do. Makes free tuition and £10K look really good, and no student debt and guaranteed job when you qualify!

[LEGAL TENDER]

The effect on financials NATS between paying 60 people 13k and 20k for 24 months is tiny compared to the overall wage bill and other financial cost- BUT the effect on that difference in wage for those 60 people is huge.

But that's NATS in a nutshell: penny wise and pound foolish.
They mess up with the intakes, put people on hold, students finish college and have no posting etc etc and in the meantime they are paying a lot of people for nothing, plus their accommodation costs sometimes, while they could manage the whole thing more efficiently and offer a better salary to start with.
The "no posting" after college trend is a recent thing and quite increasingly so (this applies to NSL mostly, aerodrome students) and it's a worrying indicator of the communication breakdown between college and the units.

[terrain safe]

The "no posting" after college trend is a recent thing and quite increasingly so (this applies to NSL mostly, aerodrome students) and it's a worrying indicator of the communication breakdown between college and the units.

Actually driven by Heathrow House, with most units reducing their OR in the past year at their instigation, rather than the units directly.

[BigDaddyBoxMeal]

Actually driven by Heathrow House, with most units reducing their OR in the past year at their instigation, rather than the units directly.

Yes. I believe however that NSL are still paying NERL for the 20 plus ADI/APC trainees per annum, even though there hasn't been an aerodrome course since May! All because it was contractually agreed! :ugh:

[Vlad the Impaler]

Eric,
"just think though, that if you get out of the college you will spend 12-18 months on a pittance of a salary compared to your "peers" who voted for an extra 20p on top of their massive wages (and therefore a 50% reduction in trainee wages).

another example of our union looking out for it's weakest member."

It wasn't a case of the union looking out for its weakest member at all.
What we actually voted for was to "disadvantage" future employees. Nobody who was a current trainee/union member was affected by the decision.

If someone offered you a decent payrise to the detriment of future employees who would have the facts presented to them and the choice to take the job or not, would you have turned it down?
Don't be so bloody ridiculous.
I don't know how current trainees survive on the money they get. I couldn't have done with a wife and hat full of kids but if I was in that situation now then I would simply not have taken the job.
A blessing some would say.

The union can be accused of a lot of things but in the end we all voted to screw over the future generation of employees and we have recently done it again over the pension. Did you feel bad about that one Eric?
There are some things you just have to be selfish about I'm afraid.
I do feel a little bit guilty whenever a new college trainee appears wearing rags but nobody forced them to sign up and they will eventually, if successful, reap the rewards of a well paid, relatively secure job.

[G-OFUK]

...future employees who would have the facts presented to them and the choice to take the job or not...Not completely true. I wasn't told what the new trainee pay deal was until I'd started my 'get to know everyone' week at New Place.

NATS was a second career for me, I had a wife and two kids at the time I started with the company and the financial scars to prove it! My wife and I figured that on the salary of £15k with accommodation allowance and paid trips home we could (just) make it work. By the time I found out the salary was £10k with none of the extras I was well past the point to be able to make a sensible decision about what to do. I continued and completed my training and have come out the other end a valid controller and am extremely glad I stuck with it and gave it everything I had.

I now earn a good salary but I'm financially ruined. Throughout the course of my training I was unable to concentrate on my studies and developing my skills because I was constantly worried about how I could keep a roof over my families head. Worries over money without a doubt contributed to me failing a number of assessments during my time at college and delayed my progress in unit training.

Looking back I'm glad I did it because I love my job and the people I work with. I'm also glad that things worked out the way they did, because had I known the salary when I first looked to apply for the job I never would have taken my application any further. Ultimately the only reason I'm now a valid controller is because NATS never told me the pay deal until my first day working for them when I'd successfully gone through the application process and left my previous employment. I find it a great pity that people like me who could just as easily make it to the end will be put off applying by the pittance of a salary.

I'd also like to point out that when I made the decision to change career I looked at NATS because it is an employer and as such I expected a salary; if I was in a financial position to go to university I could have chosen any number of professions. The truth of it was that I had financial commitments which needed to be maintained even whilst training and therefore I did not feel that returning to education was an option. Looking back on my times in poverty whilst working as a trainee controller for NATS I often wonder if I might have been better off if NATS hadn't paid me a salary at all and classed me as a student in higher education; I often found that I earnt so little as not to be able to afford the things I needed but too much in the eyes of the government to qualify for assistance.

I'm going on a bit now, but to summarise - I'm glad I am where I am and that fate allowed it happen as it did but armed with all the information I would never even have applied!

[Gingerbread Man]

It is worth mentioning that after you are posted to a unit, but prior to validation, your monthly income will actually decrease slightly. Your salary increases, but you lose the accommodation allowance, so I ended up with about £50 less a month. This is based on a Band 2 unit though, so probably not true of the higher bands.

[ImnotanERIC]

as much as i agree with you, i wouldn't go broadcasting that view to too many people. Your instructors won't look favourably on you.

just a heads up.

[Roffa]

A massive chip on your shoulder before you've even started pug4, you'll fit in well.

[rogervisual]

Pug4 - do your potential future workmates a favour and jack it in now. One of the best jobs in the world does not need you, there are plenty of people who would make the most out of it.

[Avoiding_Action]

When did you apply pug? As far as I'm aware the salary has been approx £10,300 for a few years now. And this does not include the £60 a week accomodation payment which increases the salary by £3120 a year tax free.

[alfaman]

Pugwash 4x4: unions are mandated to protect their members interests as far as possible - not the interests of those who may or may not choose to join the company. FWIW the affect on Trainee salaries was made very clear to the management team at the time, & they chose to ignore it: they realised they'd gone too far quite quickly afterwards, hence the "living allowance" payment. Your argument is with them, not the union, and by joining NATS anyway, you strengthen their case, & weaken the unions. If we ever reach the point where recruitment can't get people because the salary is too low, the policy will no doubt change again - but no sign yet.

This battle was won/lost at least three years ago - surely you've had internet access since then? There's nothing to stop you changing your mind, even at this late stage.

[rogervisual]

Pug - As long as there are enough applicants that pass all stages and take the offer of training with NATS the current system will not change.
I have taken a cut in my salary a couple of times for career moves in the past. One thing is for sure though, if you are pre-occupied with your financial problems during the course it will a lot a harder than it could be.
Unions - i do see your point to a certain extent. In my experience they are either too weak or too strong if know what i mean. You have got to get your head around this
one way or another. Good luck.

[JonathanB]

I can't say that I was fed any misinformation over the last year in terms of salary while training. Then again I've always been well aware of the salary cut involved and knowing that I would be leaving my city job to do something more rewarding one way or another, have spent the last couple of years making sure I can cope with the reduction in income. Just as well as I've not been working since September - looking forward to starting next week!

[Roffa]

pug4,

Know of a few of my university peergroup who looked at NATS but turned away when looking at Pay and Benefits. Perhaps management will start to take note.

Your peers must have set their sights quite high then to turn their noses up at a career that could ultimately see them in the top 5% of earners in the country. Best of luck to them.

When it comes to pay and benefits, despite the way my colleagues moan at times, NATS are actually up there with the best of them.

[Ivor_Novello]

pugwash...

with regards to the unions and what previous members voted for:

You have joined after 2009, so you are not part of the old pension scheme anymore.
Let's say 3 years from now you are a valid ATCO and there's a ballot to extend your pension scheme to all employees, including those that were on the final pension. The alternative is to see YOUR scheme furtherly deprived.
What will YOU vote?

food for thought

Ivor

[Gonzo]

That's the sort of calibre person that NATS clearly feel they need to recruit, but the initial benefits have to be attractive!


And I've interviewed and selected greengrocers, bricklayers, people who struggled through A-Levels, dropped out of university and many who apply straight from school. It's nothing to do with academic success or qualifications.

[Roffa]

Quite Gonzo, an arts or meedja studies degree does not necessarily an atco make. In fact it's probably a hindrance imo.

It's all down to aptitude really, shame they still haven't quite got the selection tests right.

[Gonzo]

I did Media Studies A Level........is that bad? :}

[Geffen]

Gonzo, could be worse could be a degree!

:)

[MartinInTheMiddle]

Well said Gonzo - the last thing we need is people who think they are doing us a favour by condescending to join us - I would vote for lowering TATC salary and benefits further to keep them out!

[LEGAL TENDER]

I would vote for lowering TATC salary

Unfortunately that cannot be done as the words minimum salary suggest ;)

[alfaman]

Unfortunately that cannot be done as the words minimum salary suggest http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif
- that only applies if you pay a salary - some ANSPs don't...

[dcb2008uk]

One of the best controllers I know at Swanwick was previously a chef in the canteen.

Educational and employment background is irrelevant, the skills to do the job and a passion for it, and to keep working at it when times are tough is what counts.

[Vortex Issues]

I agree with dcb2008uk, Ernie could teach a Aramark a few things :}