Pan Am Beijing

[woog315]

What is the deal with this school? I'm considering applying in about a month, but have heard a lot of mixed things. Anyone here currently working there or worked there in the past? How is it? How is the situation with the military severely restricting flight hours?

I understand P. Murphy just left the school and, as far as I can tell, he was pretty much running the place. Any idea how I can contact his replacement?

Thanks

[woog315]

no one here works or has worked there?

[CorsairDB1]

To be more accurate, hardly anyone there works there either. I work for BPA. We do a lot of sitting and waiting for clearances but as far as work...a few of us (that were suckers) teach ground schools but more than 2 airplanes in the traffic patteren at once is cause for celebration around here. We have something like 50 on the ramp in Shijiazhuang alone.

Of the 45 or so instructors at the SJW base maybe 15 fly regularly (10 hours in a good week, usually less). There are another 10 or so of us that have passed our knowledge tests and wait for our Chinese check rides. The rest were not fortunate enough to win the lottery that is the Chinese written tests and so they do odd jobs, tutoring, or nothing as they wait the 28 days the Chinese require before a retest can be taken. Some have been playing that game as long as 6 months and it is seldom any fault on their part.

The main reason for that is the written tests which are rediculous. If you know the FAA material cold, and I do mean cold, then your chances of passing these are about 50/50 because the questions are written in horrible english and in many cases the questions or answers are simply wrong or mismatched. I was at an advantage because I spent the last 4 years teaching a lot of Austrians and Polish students so I'm pretty accustomed to questions that make no sense if you take them literally because of the language barriers. Still, my passing was as much luck as it was knowledge.

It depends on what you're looking for but if you need flight hours this isn't the place to be (they'll tell you 500-1000 a year, in reality about 300 if you're lucky enough to get through all the silly tests). On the bright side, it's easy money and your living expenses are nil so it's a great way to pay down training debts or save some quick cash.

The instructor corps here is a great group of guys (kind of have to be to skip halfway around the world to work as a CFI) so that helps you maintain your sanity a bit. If you want to travel to China on someone else's dime then it's ok.

There are a lot of things that keep us on the ground but ATC, and not always the military, is far and away the biggest culprit.

There are a lot of good people trying very hard here but stacked against Chinese corruption, poor maintanence, bad weather (caused primarially by the pollution here) and mind-boggling incompetance of the vast majority of our massive Chinese staff the obstacles are just too big.

This forum will probably turn into a lightening rod for a lot of nameless posters soon. There was another thread on PPRUNE about a year ago that turned into that. There are a lot of very frustrated people here and they have a right to be. Most are looking for other work. I'd say it's not so bad as long as you come for the right reasons (travel as opposed to flying hours).

I just call it like I see it.

Tailwinds,
Derek

[mustangV8]

Your post was very informative.

How much do the cfi's make per month? Does it depend on how much they fly?


thanx,

mV8

[CorsairDB1]

Pay is based on experiece and liscences. I don't remember the exact scheme but it works out to something like $1,700 USD per month for a guy who still has the ink wet on their certificate. I can tell you for sure that someone with multi-instructor and instrument instructor certificates and 100 hours of dual given gets $2000 a month. It's allstandard package stuff so they don't leave room to negotiate.

They will withold $100 per month for the first ten months but you do get that back (they reimburse your trip expenses on arrival so the witholding protects them from eating that if you skip out before doing any work). Still, if you really don't like it you could jump ship when you recieve your first payday and go home breaking even with a month in China under your belt.

They have a lot a scary language in the contract about having to give 3 months notice or they fine you some rediculous amount for contract breach. The Chinese still haven't figured out that if they removed that crap then people who do quit would give notice instead of just dissappearing on payday. If you have to leave early then that's how you do it (all of us knows who's going when so we don't leave each other hanging or the students in a bind but as far as the Chinese are concerned it's always a total surprise :ok: )

No taxes to pay here and you probably won't pay any back home either (at leat for Americans it's 330 days abroad in a year and you have no tax liability for money made outside the US).

Pay is totally divorced from how much you fly or what those hours are in but the odds of getting in anything other than a DA40 for the first contract seem slim. Then on the other hand there is a huge controversy here at the moment over a bunch of really low time people that got typed in a CJ1 but I'm not gonna touch that, no my business or my problem.

I'm doing my level best to keep a positive outlook here but again I'd admonish you to come here for travel or experience only. Flying is not what Pan Am does and the Chinese have zero interest in quality instruction in the air or on the ground (or in anything else for that matter).

It's almost like a whole 'nother country.
Derek

[smoothkpilot]

I’m posting to see if there is anyone in Beijing with anything positive to say about Pan Am’s operations. I am a UK based instructor and I have submitted my application to Pan Am as I am interested in working there. Most of the posts on this site are about all the negative things at Pan Am which I am grateful for but surely there must be some positive things as well.
A major issue that concerns me is the pollution in Beijing. Just how bad is it at the Pan Am schools? I live in London so am used to City living but does it compare or is it much worse. Have any students complained of any related health problems due to working in Beijing. I think China is one of the most exciting places to be for the future developments within the aviation industry and see this opportunity as a chance to get into that market.
I would like to hear from instructors who are currently in Beijing, please include both the positive and negative parts of your experience.
Thanks
Smoothk:ok:

[mingalababya]

Check out these two threads from the Flight Instructors forum;

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=245061

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=246851

[Patrick Murphy]

i doubt many of us have ever experienced air pollution worse than that at Shijiazhuang, the original base for Beijing PanAm. The newer base in Baotou has better air quality, but even there if the atmospheric conditions are right (wrong?) the pollution can be quite bad.
With that said, there did not seem to be many illnesses at Shijiazhuang that could be directly attributed to the air pollution. But certainly it can not be very good for the young, old, or those with existing conditions or allergies.
And to respond to an initial comment, it is correct that I am no longer with the company. Howard Davenport is still there ([email protected]) and the instructor recruiter is Jessica Tian ([email protected]). Their website is available at www.panamaviation.com (there is an English version), but it is somewhat dated as it still carries me as being part of the company.
P. Murphy

[CorsairDB1]

The pollution in Beijing isn't much worse then what you see in London but you'll only see Beijing on your own time. The company has offices in Beijing but there are no flight operations there of any sort. You'll spend your first 4 or 5 moths in Shijiazhuang and the pollution here is unreal. Some of the worst in China and China has the worst in the world. You'll develop the habit of hacking and spitting here on a regular basis (this is normal and you'll see everyone doing it, even old women--on the train, busses, even occasionally in hotel lobbies).
With a lot of luck you pass the tests on the first try and then you only have to wait 4 or 5 months for "standardization." When, or rather if, that ever happens you have a chance of being shipped somewhere else, most likely Batou. As Pat said the Batou base is supposedly better but I've only been there once so I can't speak much to it. There is one other base, Handan, which is opening next month (it actually looks like it might open in April but to put things in perspective, it has been "openning next month" since I got here in November and a lot of the others guys say it's been "next month" for a year and a half so take that for what it's worth).
The website is far, far out of date and the way communication works here I'd be leery of something else. They are drawing up a new contracts but it is doubtful they will send you the new one. Before I came they sent me the contract ahead of time for review but you will want to make sure they send you the new one, which is doubtlessly less in your favor. When you get here they won't reimburse your trip expenses until after you sign it so you'll want to minimize surprises.
As for the other benifits they will sell you on, namely "banking" days and bonuses, none of that exists anymore and they will change or take away anything they please with a few keystokes of an email. There is absolutely no protection for you anywhere in China. You're a foriegner, you don't speak Chinese and even if you did you would still lack the money and connections to seek any kind of legal protection. Anything that that happens here will be judged as your fault, automatically.

As far as China being the new aviation boom, don't hold your breath. They have to change a lot first and the one thing the Chinese loath above all else is change. Everything here is appearance and as long as it looks like modernization their goal has been met. Progress is a bit more elusive.

Positives: Good group of people to hang around with, learning a new culture, some travel oppertunities in the region, free living and easy money if you keep your head down.

As for the negatives, you'll have no difficulties finding those on those other threads.

Good luck,
Derek

[zakka]

You'll spend your first 4 or 5 moths in Shijiazhuang and the pollution here is unreal. Some of the worst in China and China has the worst in the world. You'll develop the habit of hacking and spitting here on a regular basis (this is normal and you'll see everyone doing it, even old women--on the train, busses, even occasionally in hotel lobbies).


Well, the main reason for the spitting, hacking etc. is not the pollution, it is simply because they are Chinese;)

[CorsairDB1]

that's true, they certainly have a little different perspective on manners, which is fun to learn about. Getting right in your face when they talk is another charmer. On the other hand, a girl I know in Beijing said that her province had nearly 2000 a day dying to SARS (funny, you didn't see that in China Daily) and you wonder what effect hygene has (far and away the most common form of disease transfer is 'fecal to mouth'--my Bachelor's is actually in Phisical Anthropology). Most places don't have hot water so weeks without bathing in the winter is not uncommon. Few wash their hands (at all it seems). The kids here don't wear diapers, they have pants with a split in the crotch and they just squat anywhere at anytime. Just about every bathroom in the country has a trash can full of used toilet paper in every stall too.

Ahh...the Pearl of the Orient.

Watch your step,
Derek

[flytoo]

Hello,

I agree 100 % with Derek. It is a very good report of life at Shijiazhuang airport and in China. I also am employed with BPIAA and have been struggling to get standardized. Many flights are cancelled for ATC delays, trafic delays, maintenance, CFI sickness, myself sick, other flights have priority, ferry flights.... etc. 10 times on the schedule and maybe 1 actual flight. And I passed the written tests relatively fast compared to other guys.Decision are made without our knowledge, on the last minute like last week: a guy comes and tell us to take the CAAC checkride and we are not finished with Flight Standard Dept.
The only good is you get paid, but actually you pay for it: your moral is very low, you can' t plan a trip ahead of time, no future vacation because the instability, irritation, you hear complains from everybody.... It is really chaos here, but normal for China; I TALKED TO A CHARMING CHINESE LADY and she said that in her company they have the same problems: therefore BPIAA is nothing really exceptional for bad management, maybe a little bit more complex due to western and chinese managers fighting to control the place.
Anyway,
Take care Derek,

Flytoo! not too much but....it is China

:)

[Amin]

Why not try malaysia?

HM AEROSPACE TRAINING CENTER is looking for flight instructores. They pay 2000 us dollars + housing and you will live in an island. Beutiful place, I have never been there, but it looked beutiful from the internet:rolleyes:.

They require FAA/JAA/ or any ICOA recognized license. You need to have a flight instructor rating + 1500 tt and 500 dual given.

But I bet you if you apply with lower time you will get the job.

There is a flight instructor shortage these days so they might take you.

[flytoo]

Hi!

I am thinking about it too! If you go there, give us some live info about it. Of course, on a island with the sea and beach, it will be a major improvement from the pollution from China.
Take care,

Flytoo

[flytoo]

Hello,

News from BPIAA: starting monday, we have to sign up everyday a presence sheet at 8:00 AM to find out what is our location. If you are not showing up, you will get a paycut. You also have some work to do: if you are not competent for the job, it doesn't matter :just do it, if you don't like it, go back to your country. A new CFI arriving here will be asked to review the checklist on an aircraft that he never flew before and set the SOP for the company. Amazing! I thought you do what and how to fly but not in this case, you will set the new standards. How can a company run like this?
Just bragg how good you are a pilot with thousands of hours and you get a manager job! Fantastic!
It is getting better and better and the rats are leaving the sinking boat!
I love it here!

Flytoo:}

[flytoo]

Hello,

News from BPIAA.
Email from the new management officer: position unknown

"Notice to Airmen and Airwomen
I see you when you're sleeping
I KNOW when you're awake
I KNOW if you 've been bad or good
So sign up for your salary's sake"

This email was send to CFI's because we don't agree with the presence sheet. This seems to be some intimidation manoeuver, with some hitlerian tactics to get the CFI's to behave as he wishes.
What will come next?
Mr Toni Soloman is simply a maniac who tries to run an international group of flight instructors. Can you believe it?
If you want to get a job here, believe me, soon there will be many openings!:=
Good flights,

Flytoo

[eternity]

I'm currently fixing up the SOP's for the DA-42

I've never flown a 42 before but I've seen one. I think that qualifies me.

Ha ha! :ugh:

[CorsairDB1]

You walked past one on the ramp, appearently if you didn't trip and fall down that's a checkride pass :ok:

Make sure you include that 7000th Mags on both check in flight and the canopy latch for the ninth time. I never knew how much work a single-engine, fixed gear DA40 could be. The Diamond test pilots that checked us out at the dealership sure made it look easier... eh, what would they know?

I actually had this conversation with a student on Tuesday:

"Sir, in SOP should I look left, right, center then turn or right, left then center then turn? No...is right, center THEN left, I think."

"How about you just look around for traffic?"

"Yes...but what is the procedure?"

"I use the windows."



Make it easy on yourself,
Derek

[CorsairDB1]

About 3 seconds after hitting "submit" the thought occures to me that the 42 doesn't have Mags...:ugh:

Eternity, better have them check someone else's just to be safe.


Otherwise we will have to install some.


Clear left (center and right),
Derek

[rwong2005]

:E PanAm loves you :}

[computerpilot]

Why indeed would you want to work for Beijing Panam?
Well, for one thing, being promoted there is very easy: a few days after your arrival there, if you speak to the right people, you will be offered all sorts of great positions: manager of standards, chief flight instructor, safety officer.
You think you are not qualified? Are you afraid you won't meet the requirements? Don't worry, there are no requirements.
The only thing to remember is: there are no rules, no seniority, no logic to anything.
A pilot with less than 500 hours total time can be a CJ1 captain and instructor. He is now teaching students, carrying VIPs, with less than 500 hours total time.
The chief flight instructor has almost no multi time (less than 50, I wont give the actual figure) and he is re-writing the SOPs for the whole company. Most of his flying is on ultralights.

Yes, I have been working there for some time, enough for me and some others to realise what is going on.
It is still a full time job in a big flight school that has great potential, but don't expect to find well-qualified people at the key positions.
There is also a huge deal of back stabbing going on among some, especially when they want to access positions that they don't qualify for.

I wonder why Mr Murphy is still "advertising" for this place and giving
Mr Davenport's (safety officer) and Jessica's (HR) emails.
Come on Pat, don't you know this place well enough?
You have left more than 6 months ago, but things haven't changed that much.

I would give all the gold in the world to know what do the Chinese managers of Panam think of all these foreigners fighting each other and back stabbing each other, rather than stick together and make this place work.
Any idea Pat? You have attended a few meetings there.

To answer your question, no, I wouldn't come to work for Beijing Panam.
Especially with the current situation in North America, where everyone is recruiting like crazy.
Unless of course you don't mind an adventurous life.
Lots of stories to tell your grandchildren!

Take care, fly safe.

[Patrick Murphy]

I think if you actually searched you would find that since even before I left Beijing PanAm in late January this year, I stopped "recommending" them. I have continued to answer direct questions about China and the conditions there. I will also continue to refer flight instructors to the appropriate people at BPIAA if they request that. That should not imply that I am recommending or "advertising" for them. In fact, in my present position at a flight school in the USA, I am now a direct competitor for the same Chinese airline students.
Looking for a job as a flight instructor in the USA? Please let me know!
PM

[computerpilot]

Quote from Mr Murphy, dated 28 february 2007:

And to respond to an initial comment, it is correct that I am no longer with the company. Howard Davenport is still there ([email protected]) and the instructor recruiter is Jessica Tian ([email protected]). Their website is available at www.panamaviation.com (http://www.panamaviation.com/) (there is an English version), but it is somewhat dated as it still carries me as being part of the company.
P. Murphy


Yes Pat you are correct.
However it seems that Panam has greater difficulties to recruit people nowadays.
Mr Davenport has gone on a trip to America last month in order to hire instructors. He probably wasn't convincing enough, because up here in Baotou, we haven't seen any new instructor for months.
There are still instructors waiting for their licenses, and others waiting to sit their CAAC written exams.

Instead of trying to do a good job with the students, the instructors who are certified are just too busy competing for a position on the CJ1, and stabbing each other in the back.

The Chinese base manager must be having the time of his life, watching all these foreigners fighting like old ladies.:ok:

[flytoo]

hello guys,

1. if you passed the written tests ( and they are really crazy ) and the checkride with an CAAC examiner, then you can wait for months to receive a temporary chinese licence valid only 3 months.

2. if you did NOT passed the tests, because they are really crazy and nothing to do with your abilities and knowledge, you get a validation and can almost immediately start to fly as an instructor in China.

Does it make sense?

this is only the reality!

have a good day and lot's of flying wherever you are!

Flytoo (sometimes)

[The_Flyin_Kiwi]

HHMMMM .. seems like nothing has changed at Beijing Panam in the last year since I left there. I know some guys who have been there now for more than 2 years ..... They deserve a medal!

If you work at Panam or want to work at Panam you need to know the secret!

The secret is this .... Dont think that because you are experienced and have qualifications and good hours that this means you are needed there or that they will want to draw on your experience in order to teach others. If you are very inexperienced and have very low hours then you are in a much better position to be promoted.

You see the Chinese way of thinking is this .... If there is a rule that stops you from doing something then that rule is irrelevant ... you just ignore it. If people who are experienced start giving you advice that you dont want to hear then you not only ignore them but you restrict them in every way you can. Those who are born brown nosers will be promoted immediately and those brown nosers who are inexperienced will be promoted even faster to even higher positions. This is because they can be easily manipulated to do exacly what the management want them to do. But do you know what the best thing is about all this as far as the Chinese thinking is involved? When the **** hits the fan the Chinese can stand back and blame the foreigner for the stuff up:} .... I tell you the Chinese are not stupid like a lot of people think. When the **** hits the fan they will stand back and say "But it is the fault of the foreigner ... he is a foreign expert .. he is here to help us because in China we have not done anything like this before. Don't be fooled guys .... Foreigners are not there because they are wanted .. they are there because they are needed .... and when the time comes that they are not needed then they won't be there.

My advice is ..... If you work for Panam or are planning to work for Panam try not to think like a foreigner! Just go with the flow. Don't try to chage things or you will be viewed as a threat. Just keep your head down and keep a low profile. The secret for working at Panam is this...

1) Trust no one and you will not be betrayed
2) Expect nothing and then everything you do get is a bonus
3) Treat every promise as a lie until proven otherwise or you will only be contiually disappointed.
4) Dont have the expectation of getting lots of flying hours.

When I was at Panam I looked at things this way in order to stop me going crazy ....... "Eat their great food, drink their great beer, screw their pretty girls .... and laugh all the way to the bank!" ...... and remember .. flying is just a brief interuption to your social life :ok:.

[flytoo]

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen!
Boys and Girls!

We love Panam!

Discover the Chinese way of Life! Travel to great cities like Shijiazhuang, Handan and Baotou. Explore the new world of aviation; China's aviation is booming and need thousand of pilots. Train the elite of the new generation.
Where will they come from? Nobody knows of course! When? Good question! No answer yet!

I really love the job. And I believe that everywhere in the world is a pilot shortage! Really?

I don't agree; because we have at Panam flight instructors waiting to start teaching. Some for a few months, some almost a year, some too tired to wait and now they are leaving!

Just apply and get the great job, we need your help!

Don't believe anything, don't trust anybody, take the money and shut up.

Difficult to do sometimes but think about it this way: you are a paid tourist and will visit Beijing, Shijiazhuang capital of Hebei, Handan the pearl of ancient times, Baotou next to the tomb of Genghis Khan, freezing in winter but it is of course Inner Mongolia. The trip is worth it. You will experience it only once in a lifetime. Don't go to the dark alleys, the dirt stinks a lot, get a mask, visit a doctor when you return home, you might need it.

Well, I think I will stay forever here, I love it!

Flytoo

[nomorecatering]

Does one have to pass the Chineese class 1 medical to secure an instructng job at Pan am.

[The_Flyin_Kiwi]

Absolutely ... you will need to pass the Chinese class 1 medical unless you plan on being the ground instructor.

This is quite a strict medical. ECG, Blood tests, hearing tests, eye test, urine test, abdominal ultra sound test.... ect ect The last chinese class one medical I did they even did a brain scan .... but maybe that was because they wanted to see why foreigners are so smart :}.

Yeah, it is way tougher than an FAA or JAA or CASA or NZCAA medical.

Mind you ... if there is an issue with your medical it could be sorted out with a "Harmony Fee Coordination Test". This is where they test your hearing, brain activity and hand eye coordination.

It goes something like this ....
Hearing test .. First they test your hearing by saying "Oh dear, there is a problem with your medical". If you can hear this you have passed the hearing test.

Next is the brain activity test ... If you are smart enough to realise that this probem can be resolved with the payment of a harmony fee (known in western countries as a bribe) then you pass the brain activity test.

Next is the hand eye coordination test ... If you can put your hand in your pocket and pull out the correct amount of money and place it in their hand succesfully (within 10 attempts) then you pass the hand eye coordination test. (Note: If you cannot place the money in their hand within 10 attempts don't worry .. they will eventually take it from your hand and you will still pass)

Remember in China there is almost nothing that cant be fixed with a harmony fee :}

[watchyourairspeed]

Rock on Kiwi.

Priceless coments on you last insight. I see some some artistic-writting vein. :D

Cherioo

WYA

[flytoo]

Hello Guys,

Nice comments about the life in China!

The latest is that a group of instructors and students from class 3 and 4 is moving to Baotou, Inner Mongolia. After a short stay in Handan the beautiful, they will enjoy the sights in Baotou.

Have a good flying day!

Flytoo