Visual approach

[Nives2712]

I have been told that an aircraft may be cleared for visual approach only after passing FL100 in descent (apart from met and traffic conditions). I have never heard of that during my entire education as an approach procedural atc :uhoh:
Does anyone know if that is true and where I could find that information (documents,books,forums)?
Thanx in advance
:confused: :)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Can't see anything in the latest UK MATS Pt 1, but they may have changed things recently? The criteria for visual approaches has been eased slightly in recent years so it would seem strange if a further restriction was introduced

[Nives2712]

The person who told me that might have been wrong, I'm just checking up, maybe I missed it somewhere in the books.
More experienced colleagues could not remember reading anything about it either, so I'm a bit confused.
tnx anyway :ok:

[bottom rung]

One of the provisos for authorising a VMC descent (in the UK) is that it is taking place in Class D/E/F/G airspace at or below FL100. Its nothing to do with visual approaches but it the criteria for VMC descents and visual approaches often get confused by pilots and atco's alike; its a guaranteed question during an APP annual check oral board:bored:

[Sudden Stop]

Bottom Rung, sounds like recent experience??
:ok:

[Nives2712]

well the problem is that I'm not working in the UK, and might have posted the question at the wrong place :)
But I thought someone might have heard of it.
It was visual approach and FL100, not visual descent, that's for sure.

But my supervisor might have mistaken visual approach and visual descent when asking me :E

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Never heard of "Visual descent" in the places I worked; guess it's a local thing where you are?

[Sudden Stop]

Slightly of original topic,

Is a VMC descent against other IFR traffic into a visual approach allowed, bearing in mind that standard separation must be maintained during a visual approach?

Example:

Inbound at fl50 against outbound traffic level fl40. Can the inbound be cleared for a visual approach with a vmc descent through the outbound traffic or should it be done in two stages? VMC descent to clean level then cleared for the approach?

[Nookie2nite]

VMC descent is usually when the field is not in sight, but ground and good viz are. The responsibility for terrain changes from the radar controller to the pilot. He can still be on a heading, but due to minima radar vectoring terrain chart request a VMC decent, taking the responsibility of terrain. Usually done when expecting a visual approach but wanting lower before having the field in sight. ( I can't find any of this in the books regarding VMC however)
In SA there is a local restriction of vis approach only within 25nm - stupid, bat anyway.....
:ok:
S Stop - not against other traffic - only terrain. A VMC climb thru is however if two aircraft have each other in sight and have crossed, they can request VMC climb thru. Not applicable everywhere tho....
:ok:

[aka mc]

With regards to the visual approach and the vmc descent, true that vmc descent is only to be used at or below F100. When a pilot requests vmc descent due to a hole in the cloud and he is able to get below the cloud with the ground in sight, maintaining own terrain clearance. If there is one(not more than one for level change portion) other ac in the airspace traffic information will be given to both and the other ac must aggree/allow the ac to descent trough his level with no objections, no need for visual conformation.
When the ac is below cloud he has to then report field in sight and request the visual approach(if on intermediate or final app) and can then be cleared for the visual app with IFR seperation status.

The only restrictions for the visual app is that it is within 25nm from the airfield and has it in sight(and will be able to keep it insight). There is the restrictions on who is supposed to initiate the vis app, depending on the phase of flight, but that mostly refers back to the pilot being willing and able.

[TATC]

nookienite

you post implies that fora visual approach you need the field in sight. i was taught that the pilot just ahs to say the visibiltiy is good enough for him to make the approach visually, ie navigate himself. After all pilots are often cleared for a visual approach from ranges of 20-30 miles at some airfields I doubt that these pilots do actually have the field in site but can see enough of the ground landmarks etc to get themselves to final approach and land

[delay undetermined]

S. Stop - Sounds good to me. The pilot takes on responsibility for Terrain, and should be given Standard Separation from all other traffic. However, in procedural airspace, when radar is not available, it's a bit tricky to provide standard separation. So you tag on a VMC descent against a specified bit of traffic.

All conditions for Visual Approach must otherwise be met, and also, the provisions to VMC descent must be met.

Namely: Visual Approach
To expedite traffic at any time, IFR flights may be authorised to execute visual
approaches if the pilot reports that he can maintain visual reference to the surface and
a) the reported cloud ceiling is not below the initial approach level; or
b) the pilot reports at any time after commencing the approach procedure that the
visibility will permit a visual approach and landing, and a reasonable assurance
exists that this can be accomplished.
12.2 Standard separation shall be effected between such aircraft and other IFR and/or
SVFR aircraft.

and VMC Descent:
To avoid excessive delays to traffic when radar is not available, controllers may
authorise an aircraft to climb or descend in VMC provided:
a) essential traffic information is given;
b) the pilot of the aircraft climbing or descending agrees to maintain his own
separation from other aircraft;
c) it is during the hours of daylight;
d) the aircraft is flying in visual meteorological conditions;
e) the manoeuvre is restricted to Class D, E, F and G airspace at or below FL 100; and
f) the aircraft is not in CAS-T.

So now I've blown sunshine and MATS pt 1 quotes up yer .. oh er missus ... Yeah, I do it as long as its sensible!!
:ok:

[aka mc]

Sound good enough for me, who could argue with that. Well done!:ok:

[Nookie2nite]

TATC - from Doc 4444, 8.9.5.2

"Clearance for a visual approach shall be issued only after the pilot has reported the aerodrome, or the preceding aircraft in sight, at which time radar vectoring would normally be terminated."

The 25nm thing in South Africa is one of the silly "King Arthurisms". VMC climb throughs in SA where restricted to below F120 due to curvature of the earth and the deception that the traffic was actually below/above you when actually vice versa.

:ok:

[foghorn]

Nookie-> The UK does it slightly differently: to clear for a visual approach you only need visual reference to terrain and a reasonable assurance that the approach can be completed visually.

Edit. Ah basically TATC has said that already. Read the thread foghorn.

[ATCO2]

Nina,

Don't worry about it. ICAO Docs are relevant ones and you follow them. Wait for that to be written somewhere in national regulation to be applicable to your airport. Some users of the forum are always saying their national regulations, not international ones. Sometimes, as everyone can see, there are too many different answers for the same thing. Who is correct? It is sometimes very difficult to say. You may have a look through the other posts. I personally like to say things which are prescibed by ICAO and it will be good here for everyone to say reff. doc. when they say it is so and so ...............

Regards

[Riverboat]

It all seems like a load of rubbish to me! Just read these "rules"! Is it any surprise that most pilots don't understand the rules - if, indeed, they are rules.

Certain postings have stated that VMC approaches can only be undertaken below 10,000 ft - not true. What if the flight is being carried out VFR? And it can only be carried out in Class D,E,F,G airspace. Not true: what if the flight is Special VFR?

Many VFR and Sp VFR flights are conducted above FL100 and in Class A airspace. You can't generalise on this issue. If you are referring SPECIFICALLY to aircraft on IFR plans, then these complex and extraordinary "rules" may be correct. But they are not correct in general.

[terrain safe]

Riverboat.

Small point but quite important: you cannot fly VFR in class A airspace Mats 1 section1 ch2 page 1 refers. :ok:

[Riverboat]

Terrain Safe:

Small point, mate, but an important one. You CAN (if cleared to) fly Sp VFR in Class A airspace, and this is not limited to below FL100.

[spekesoftly]

Riverboat,

SVFR clearances in the UK are only issued in Control Zones. The only Class A Control Zone in mainland UK is LHR, top 2500'.

[Nookie2nite]

ATCO2 .....nobody is argueing here - everyone simply discussing what is relevant in their neck of the woods - if you don't wanna contribute, don't.:rolleyes:

Back to the issue - in my books, SVFR and VFR don't fly VMC approaches, they are still considered "VFR", therefore they fly visual flight rules! SVR is treated as IFR wrt seperation standards, but is not cleared for any type of approach. Here SVFR is also only in the CTR to allow VFR a/c in and out when vis is below VFR minimas.....

[BlueSkye]

But what is the difference between "Visual Approach" and "Approach maintaining VMC"? Terrain clearance?

[bottom rung]

Approaches maintaining VMC were pulled out of the UK MATS Pt1 a few years ago. It was in order to prevent confusion between approaches maintaining VMC, visual approaches and visual descents..... guess that worked then:}

[BlueSkye]

AFAIR "VMC Descent/Climb Through" is a procedure used when you don't feel like vectoring to 5 miles to get separation and the pilot requests it, has the other in sight, by day yadda yadda yadda (as per Delay Undet). It is not coupled to an approach of some type be it Visual-, VMC- or IFR-Approach. That said, I do not hold an App rating of any kind so I could be smoking some good S%$T.

[Nives2712]

@ATCO2: thanx for your post.
Basically that was my question, is there anywhere in the ICAO documents anything about visual approach and FL100?
Since you wrote "Wait for that to be written somewhere in national regulation to be applicable to your airport.", I guess there isn't :)
My only mistake was actually that I didn't specify ICAO docs when starting the thread :)
Sorry:)
But it was interesting to read what it's like in other parts of the world.:ok:

[TATC]

Bluesky : isn't vmc climb/descent to be used to expedite traffic when radar is not available - not when as you so elloquantly put it " when you dont feel like vectoring to 5 miles". i was taught on my approach radar course that i count authorise VMC Climb or Descent if I had serviceable radar.

[BlueSkye]

TATC, unfortunately I can't answer you on that one. Suffice to say that I have used this on many an occation(with radar), before the 10 000ft/FL100 rule was added a year or two ago. The amount of clandestine prompting involved in getting a pilot to ask for it was legendary. But as for radar/non-radar, I have no idea. Some parts of the world utilise it differently. Damn sad that it can't be used above FL100/10 000ft.

I would think (sucking this out of my thumb though), that whether you have radar or not won't matter as the pilots do their own separation.

[ATCO2]

Hi,

I have simmiler question. Today happend to me. One of the pilot was radar vectored for the ILS approach and at minimum radar vectoring altitude requested to descent visualy to join ILS. Some ATCOs allow this, instructing an aircraft to maintain ground contact(terrein clearance) and to report established. I do not do it. I have never been told to do so during my education but I saw some ATCOs in neighbouring countries do it. Who can tell me if it is allowable or not taking into consideration ICAO rules.

Thanks in advance,

Regards