What Chance For A Fair Deal In Netjets Europ?

[barista]

I have watch for some time how the crew at Netjets Europ strugle to be treated with fareness and respect by there bosses. This has been the case for years.

Then I see many pilots leaving and what made me sad was how many of the experenced ones were on the list. The good trainers who are really needed now it is difficult to atract pilots with more than minimum time in the log book. It seemd to me that the managers were doing nothing to stop this but now I know I was wrong.

Although they can only offer the day to day pilots an insult for a new deal I am told they are doing private deals with the experienced ones. Agreeing private deals to make them stay. Do the other pilots get these offers?

Also. Not so long ago some of the brave ones started to arrange a union. They got help by the Teamsters from the US. It is being talked about elsewere that information shared only by those organising the union arrived in Lisboa and the US where it stopped on a VERY senior manager desk. In short one of the Netjets Europ pilots was supposed to be helping his fellows organise a union but insted was sending info to the managers. The mane suspect is well known in topics about the company.

How secure can anyone in this company feel when colleages turn and stab them in the back?

[transilvana]

Bad bussiness if you can not trust your collegue

[erikv]

barista,

I take it you're an outsider? Don't be mislead by a small but vocal minority on this forum. The first call for a union came some 8 months ago, but less than 10% have joined IPA so far. So perhaps the other 90% may not be that unhappy. Of course it's not perfect. There is definitely room for improvement but the outlook is not all that cloudy.

Erik

[bizantin]

Agree, situation is dramatic but not desperate! Although some rumours say 30 are resigning in January! The new deal obviously did not meet the expectations of the majority. Announced as the "best deal in Europe", very found it that exciting. I am afraid they'll have to double the offer if they want to crew the forthcoming aircraft!!!
Otherwise....

[adam firth]

Scambuster. I am the ex leader of the Netjets Union push. Your post is incorrect and may cause you some problems, others great suffering and damages the NTA Union cause, please consider editing it.

The earlier post from barista is conjecture and does not serve the Union cause, on the contrary it is potentially a problem for us.

It is true that we strongly suspect leaks from several sources. We have been investigating one but the evidence has proved inconclusive and those who have seen the information are not pointing the finger.

It is easy to go hyperboloic when behind an alias. Please think twice before pointing fingers or indulging in speculation that spread damaging personal rumours.

The Ex Task Force needs to restart afresh, with members who are prepared to stand up and be counted under their own names. We really need your help to do this. The first thing that you could all do is to cease this damaging speculation and let us finish with this affair ourselves.

Thanks for you comprehension.

Adam FIRTH

[falconbis]

The way Netjets do Maths and claim by press that the Pilot salary have been raised is amusing ..and the fact that a lots of Pilots are happy with it is link to experiences.. if you pay peanuts you get monkeys but if you already have monkeys then they will be happy with a little hint of money, now lets see how the best deal of the universe is working:
let say your previous salary before the magic was 100. add 26% raise = 126 remove 30% (5%NI and 25% Portuguese tax )= 88.2 ....and the monkeys are happy :ugh:

[erikv]

falconbis,

I know you were in a great position before, but most of us were actually paying similar or higher taxes at home. That turns your 100 into 80 or less. When 80 bananas become 88 bananas, this monkey is pleased indeed!

Erik

[CL300]

Indeed, on a company standpoint the deal is fair, on some individuals it needs adjustments. You cannot modify in depht a company culture with no collaterals 'damages'.
I will loose money with the" new deal"; however, I just keep the spirit high and see the bright side of it. Not closing the eyes, or putting on rose-tinted glasses; but we still need to flow our concerns to the top management.

THE FEAR IS GONE.... Use your best Company Ressource Management, to steer the boat. One goal, one Objective your salary to be paid ....The rest is pure speculation and kindergarden playground...


Have Fun !

[space pig]

"How secure can anyone in this company feel when colleages turn and stab them in the back?"


...............................welcome to Netjets.....................................


..............................the company you cannot trust........................


only when the last pilot walks away, will it finally get to them what they are doing wrong............................

[hawkerpilot]

cl300: "THE FEAR IS GONE.... "

The managers are still there but promoted to other positions others just got different titles.

No ,it is going well, another 30 have left in january, not least for the Fearmanagement that still reigns............

and that is the good thing about ab-initios: they do not complain(they need the hours) and will not leave (otherwise they have to pay)

live is good

outside Netjets;)

[barista]

barista,

I take it you're an outsider?

No, I am not.

You may now have 88 bannanas but many of us have less and to now one of our coleages is a spy make me think it is time to look down the road:(

[falconbis]

Changing Men and women in Management do not solve the problem if you don t change the culture and changing the culture is extremly difficult as new managers adapt unconsciensly to the actual Company culture because they want to be part of the new familly, this have been demonstrated and well explained by the audit over NASA and the lost of the 3 shuttles. The Managers changed but not the Company culture which lead NASA to the same consequences...I believed that is also a Netjets problem !

[fred_bgt]

Hi Falconbis,

I guess you are based in Paris. I am a future NJ FO (INDOC in June).

1-Do you know some tricks to park your car at Roissy CDG when working abroad for NJ ?
All parking facilities seem to be expensive at Roissy CDG !

2- During the first day of your roundtrip, are you always flying from Roissy CDG or also from Orly or Le Bourget ?

Thanks a lot

fred

[falconbis]

I think, if i don t mistaking you, that you are the guys commenting about how the netjets pilots could be unhappy with that great contract and how good the deal was regarding French tax system no !
Well I m glad for you but that's confirming that this great contract still not attrack experience Pilots and we are turning into a training school !

Regarding your question, your guess is wrong I m not base in Paris, there is no tricks to my knowledge to leave your car for 6 days in CDG beside paying the car park about 60 to 70 euros a tour x 3 tour /month so about 2000 euros/year and you can t remove it from your tax anymore !!

Your first day you will be Airline 90% out of CDG unless your plane is in LBG and you will start from LBG, no car park there or maybe the parking of the museum at the entrance but you will maybe Airline back to CDG and your car in LBG..
Guys base in CDG will know better than me all those think, one guy on my fleet take taxi to go to work that cost him a bit more but he doesn t have to worried!
Good luck

[fred_bgt]

Thank you falconbis.
To be honnest, I am not a young pilot (~39yrs old, more than 1800 T/O and landing, overseas missions, section leader for a long time, etc...). Just a different experience than yours. I need to learn very much about commercial aviation indeed but my aeronautical experience is not like a beginner.

I am really happy to discover a new aircraft, a new young & dynamic company, and to meet various people all over Europe... So attracting for me, even if everything is not perfect, I know that reading all threads !

;-)

[potatowings]

I'm amazed by the amount of anti NJE feeling there seems to be posted on here.

Working also within the bizjet world I regularly spend nights downline with Netjets crews and they all seem to be a smashing bunch of chaps.

They all have their little gripes about the company, but don't we all, however the one thing I would say is wow, the deal that the NJE management have implemented seems to be very good, especially in comparison with other GA operators around Europe, and nay sayers, please don't start slating it, the general feel on the street is that NJE is becoming a very viable option even for those in good positions now.

Also it is a much needed benchmark for other companies to work for in terms of pay and work/life balance, ie 6 on 5 off, and the BS I've seen on here about that being 'flexible' well of course, it is aviation ladies and gentlemen, but I have yet to meet a NJE pilot who has been messed around significantly. They all say, maybe once or twice a year they have a hiccup, but that is it.

I really can understand how the anti NJE crowd gathered, but maybe it's important to look outside and see what's happening 99% of the time, that's where most people are, you will always get the small minority of misshaps, nay sayers, trouble makers and crap managers. Forget about it, live life and if you are not happy, stop moaning and do something about it, there are plenty of jobs for experienced pilots, so go and get one.

[barista]

How do you know what is BS here and what is not? For how long did you work at NTAS?

You canot acept what you here in the bar as the true story. For a start there is the fear. Many still now what will happen to them if they critisise managment. Before you call this BS I ask you again for how long did you work for the company?

You think the deal is very good? Great, come and work here then. Have your contrat changed when they get out the wrong side of bed one morning.

It makes me lagh when people who have never expereince life inside the company tell us how grate it is.

[erikv]

barista,

the guy hears two different stories: one version from pilots he meets in person, the other from anonymous posters in a bulletin board. Which version do you think comes across as the most genuine of the two?

Erik

[barista]

That depend if you now about Fearmanagment in the company or not. Who is crazy enough to tell a new friend in a hotel bar about the illegal duty time on day one? All the reduce rest? Only a fool! Sure the 6/5 roster is given back to us but only if it suits them.

How many spoke their mind on the company survey? Only who do not fear Mme Guillotine. There are also more than one person here giving the bad news, no? Are they all non genuine?

[FerrypilotDK]

After following all the various discussions here, I was sceptical, but still interested enough to apply to NJE. Afterall, they are paying only a bit more than I get now, but much more time off and better scheduling. But the pilot shortage is not applicable I guess, as 10,300+ hours, Citation types and extensive experience not only all over Europe, but into Africa, India and Asia...resulted in a reply that they have decided to not pursue my application further. Hmmmm...maybe they are happy with all the abinito that will not ask questions??

ciao!

[keepin it in trim]

ferrypilot DK,

if you are still interested I strongly suggest you telephone recruitment. Unfortunately they seem to get somewhat "swamped", and whether they should or not, they sometimes miss cv's from experienced people until someone, either the person themselves or a friend in the company, chases up what has happened. Other colleagues and myself have seen this happen on a number of occasions. If you are still interested I think it is worth a telephone call.

People must make their own judgement on which version of Netjets is the reality, different people percieve things in different ways, based not just on how many hours they have but also on previous companies they have worked for. No job is perfect, but for me I think there has been a quantum leap forward in the quality of management and there is real evidence of a change in culture, but it will take time for that to reach everywhere.

I can only speak for my own fleet, but we have a good strong team in the fleet management office. Your e-mails and calls always get answered, and there is strong support for the pilots out there doing the job. I took part in the survey and I spoke my mind freely, as did all the colleagues I know who took part in it. I had criticisms of how things were being done, and many of them have been addressed since the survey results were made known to employees. Of note the company were very honest about the criticisms that were made of them in the survey.

I can understand that colleagues who joined Netjets in the beginning are unhappy with what has happened over the years. However, there seem to be real efforts to make things right and I am willing to give the new management that chance. Sure the new loyalty bonus is a major disappointment to a large number of us, and I have e-mailed in a strong complaint about it, but I personally feel the overall picture (I don't want to use "big picture"!) is a positive one. Great bunch of people to work with day to day, nice aircraft, varied flying, and a decent work/life balance.

You pays your money and makes your choice!

[falconbis]

Erik as you may know Pilots have ego and most like to tell that they work for a great company that add value to that ego, a bit like the type of aircraft they are flying, that also why patatoes got a different version, I wonder if he knows about the lack on pension, lack or minimum social security, lowest numbers of holidays in the industry with restriction from may to October and December , the attractive 95000 euros for life..no more progression, no lost of licence, by the way this month because of training I m on 7 on/ 4 off, 5 on /4 off, 6 on / 4 off surprising indeed but in the new best industry contract and I can carry on, now when I meet Poeple and ask me about Netjets if they fly for EZ I told them to stay there now if they fly Saab 340 for 22000 lbs or organs transplant on a Seneca, I told them to send they resume, I don t go into those kind of details ..may be I should :hmm:
PS: may rain resume of experienced Pilots ..but I was in GRT in the indoc class plan for 18 only 5 shows up... be carefull of the propaganda

[navoff]

Falconbis

If you work for NetJets and you are unhappy why don't you leave? Your continual moaning is rather saying more about you than NetJets!

Navoff

[Smeagel]

navoff.

falconbis and many others have not yet left because they have invested a lot of time and effort to get the company where it is. They are still optimistic enough to believe that it might still be worth staying around to be rewarded for their labours and see the job through. Who can blame them?

Other, just as professional (including some VERY experienced), crew have reached their own cut-off point and gone elsewhere.

The fact that management refuse to acknowledge their efforts in a meaningful way speaks more about Netjets attitude toward their workforce than the professionalism of falconbis and the other long term employees who have worked the hardest to build the company up.

Before criticising these people for letting off steam in public give them some thought. They see years of hard work, compromise and favours being pissed down the drain. Who can blame them for raising the alarm in the hope that it might bring management to their senses and prevent would-be colleagues from being sucked in?

[potatowings]

How do you know what is BS here and what is not?

The BS isn't the fact I don't believe the company can make you work when you thought you didn't have to barista, if you read my post properly.

My point is, people are always moaning about being messed around, go get another job. It is aviation, it means travelling and it means being flexible, and thank you erikv, you said it spot on. I have yet to meet more than 2 pilots from netjets who aren't happy there, and I speak to maybe 15 a month. I know what my outside opinion is.

[barista]

Fine potatoewings, you are entitelied to your oppinion. But to anyone reading this I would make say this.

Potatoewings is given the sensored version by the crew he speaks to. Why would they tell him what they realy think when they now what will happen to them if there talk is repported back to Lisbon?

Read the coments in here, the ones made by crew who have been in the company a long time. Not the people on the outside who like to think they know what goes on. They are not the ones who get screwed aroun every day, now have to fight for a desent deal and ask yourself who are these mistry people who say they now so many happy pilots. How do they now how good it is to put up with the BS IF THEY DO NOT WORK FOR THE COMPANY? Maybe they do but do not want you to now that?

If the company and deal are so good how come out of 18 on the indoc in January only 5 show up? How come so many are leaving? The good guys, the experience ones, the training captains? Sure potatoewings, they leave because it is all so good.

[difrips]

Fair enough.....


But remember ,the grass is always greener on the other side. You know why...Because the **** that lies underneath the surface!

I have been studying and looking into most deals in Europe, I have spoken with lots and lots of colleagues, I did my homework!

And although I agree that the NJE still could use some improvement, especially on the plan to create a loyal and long staying workforce, I have to admit that the NJE deal is hard to beat when you take into account the whole deal, including lifestyle!

EZ pays more, ok, but you fly your butt of the whole year and you do not get to choose where you live! And if you do not fly...no pay!

Ryanair same deal. After 5 years you are litterally dead!

The big airlines: so well protected that if you do not have the right nationality/experinece ( not too much either) you dont stand a chance.

Charters: hahahha

etc....


I work for a big Middle eastern carrier.

we fly 900hrs/year
we do not have LOL ( nothing worth mensioning anyway)
we do not have social security
we do not have a pension plan
we do not profit sharing
our salaries are frozen in time as well
we are 8 hours away from europe
No confirmed tickets home
You live in a tax free country.....yeah right! All taxes are hidden: Rents are triple compared to europe, supermarket prices are double, inflation is 13% annually...

But hey....salaries are higher ( capt 11000euro/month) and we have 45 days of holliday! Oh, and I forgot, you fly new shiny heavy airbusses!


I guarantee you, if you do your calculation correctly NJE is certainly not the worst deal around...not by far!

So once more, I know there is room for improvement but I have made my choice....I am joining and I will be in the INDOC soon!

One thing not to forget as well...as mentioned before...pilots have BIIIGGG EGOS! So a lot of people consider them a true pilot only when flying a big jet...Maybe thats a reason as well why NJE is struggling to find the pilots required...

Just my 5 cents...

[FerrypilotDK]

Interesting that they just might have made a little mistake. I will give them a call and see what the response is. I would have thought that they would at least want to have a chat...

...more to come!

[falconbis]

navoff
like many others i m leaving, i was waiting for the seniotity bonus to see, i had several interview and more are coming in the next few months, i just wait for the best offer and decide camly without rushing on the first offer...thank you for your inquiry and your advise....i m mature enought to know what is best for me and i don t take decision base on emotions, Netjets need about 20% more to be a great company but those 20%missing for experience captains are significant as the demand is very hight on experienced pilots, it make all the difference ! my comments are not agressive but just the reallity, its infortunate if that disturb you...sorry but licking ass in not part of my culture.

[difrips]

Falconbis,


check PM please

Thanks

[itscoldouthere]

To join netsjets or not....

I very much like 'difrips' points.

I've seniority and lots of time on B75 and 76 so the decision to go is not so straight forward.

life over the hedge. The grass is a different shade of green, if you inspect closer it is likely there will be :mad: . Lifestyle is the important bit, it only comes around once.

falconbis, how does the NetJets pay /tax work out in France??

[winkle]

I used to work for nje and really enjoyed it and would have stayed if it had not been for personal lifestyle problems that could not be resolved. The flying is great fun and the people i worked with were great. so to all of you thinking of joining go for it but make sure you go in with eyes wide open. I have been out a couple of years but if my personal circumstances changed i would go back in a heartbeat. (if they would take me-experienced captain etc) if you want a job that requires a lot of thinking on your feet and massive variety that i can only compare to military flying and you really get to FLY aeroplanes, unlike airlines who IMHO only operate them, then this is the way forward.
rgds to all in nje.

[hawkerpilot]

If people complain anomynous, it is often for a good reason, they fear represailles. What comes out is the tip of the iceberg, Netjets spends millions on advertisement to spread the pink picture of the ideal world. Newbees giving their opinion on pprune do not have the slightest idea what is really going on. Let them fly for 4 years and then see how they talk.Remenber that they only changed a few things when to many were leaving, not because they love us so much. You decide for yourself, but me and many other linetrainers have left because they keep on messing you around till you give in(which means skip the regulations) or leave. You have to be able to accept that they are going to put you in that position. Can you do that? do not care to much about regulations and are willing to break them? Then join, but do not complain later when you feel uneasy.Many young pilots joining are unfortunately pulled into this "lifestyle" of rule breaking and think it is normal and they even feel proud "they made it in".
The wiser folks are leaving or stay until they have their preferred job. I left, to captain a regional airline and the life quality has increased dramatically.
And mr flying for the middle east carrier, you fly 900 hrs with longrange ops. But Netjets flies MAX DUTY every tour(and even more because they do not count positiong as duty?!) so you are very tired indeed after every tour. Long days, 5 legs a day, minimum turnarounds.

Yes you live where you want but cannot enjoy it as you are dead tired.

[Tamer]

Could someone explain the tax and National Insurance situation with NetJets for someone living in the UK. Also if that person then moved to France what would be the situation then.

Which is the best (or most tax freindly) country to work from when working for NetJets ?

Taking into consideration all lifestyle choices, which would be the country ?

Thanks, in anticipation

[potatowings]

If the company and deal are so good how come out of 18 on the indoc in January only 5 show up? How come so many are leaving? The good guys, the experience ones, the training captains? Sure potatoewings, they leave because it is all so good.Barista, if you're not happy, go somewhere else. There are loads of jobs out there at the momnent.

Why not drop a line to Tag who have been advertising recently, what's your excuse now, you can't leave because of...

We don't want to hear it! Maybe your gateway suits you, or whatever your excuse is, but please don't slate me and my opinion when I express my experience.

You discount my outside views of the company based on pilots being scared of Lisbon, well not only do I meet people who are not friends, but I also have several close friends who I have known for years who are in the company, and they are very very happy.

You are so militant, maybe no one else should hire you even if you had the guts to leave.

[barista]

Like I say before M. Potatowings who would I belief if on the outside?

You who claim to be outside but have freinds inside?

Or people who are inside and know the truth?

Maybe you live in Lisboa? That would make sense of your posts, no?

Otherwise why not leave the conversaton to those who know for sure?

When you have investe years of your life in a company I will listen and maybe take your advise. Until then it is worth as much as the guy who serves me my espresso.

And don forget the sugar this time;)

[suchiman]

Potatowings:
It is true that often there is alot of nagging and negativity about NJE. I am also shure that you have friends that are very happy here. Lots of people are, specially the British. They are the only ones that have seen their pay increrase!

Do you also know that:

- In the last 9 years there have been 5 different managers in Lisbon?

-That 6-7 years ago there were F.O's on 33000 euros a year, and Captains on 46000 euros?

- That when the London office was opened and NJE was forced to bring the UK crew onshore, these crew were payed 15% more salary than the rest of crew( + national insurance). The rest weren't getting any of these "extras".
That there have been many cases of people having PRIVATE deals. ie more money! Now that some people will have to pay more than British, will we get extra? NO!!!

- That with the new contract, alot of people will pay considerably more taxes than they should... Because NJE insists that non UK, crew have to pay 25% non resident taxes in Portugal, plus then whatever their own countries add on. This is a problem for many crews because of double taxation and lost deductions, when there are perfectly legal ways to avoid this Portuguese "revolutionary tax". Net Jets wont have anything to do with that though. I wonder why? If this is a must pay tax ( which lawyers in several countries have already said it is just a CONVINIENT interpretation of the law) why haven't we paid it in the past? I wonder whose interests are being met here?

- That some people after 2 years in the company are already on the Falcon or Gulfstream while others have been around for 5(good pilots) and they aren't? There are cases of people joining in the Falcon 2000, spendind a year there, then Capt on the Hawker 800 for minimum time, then Falcon 2000EX. 3 years 3 types. ( as seen on the company magazine). Yet other peole are stuffed. The rules change constantly!

- No senority. Again, it just depends!

- No pay for senority, except for 2% per year. Now they have a profit share(which is different), but quite a few people with 4-5-6 years in the company will get nothing because of the way its been designed!

- Contract conditions changed unilaterally. 6 on 5 off to 18 days month.

- Etc. Believe me I could add more, but I think you catch my drift!

So, for people joining now, at 56000 euros F.O. or 95000 Cpt, things could definetly be worse! Could definetely be better! They were talking about benchmarking with EasyJet and they fell WAY SHORT! Shure its easy to gripe, and shure there are good things, but it can be very FRUSTRATING!!!:ugh:

Im not having a go at you, but its all too easy to say " if you don't like it, leave, there are plenty of jobs out there". Some people have invested years, and besides, what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. Net Jets needs to start behaving like a serious company in many ways!
LOTS of GOOD pilots have quit in the last couple of years, hopefully they can start getting it right!

[Blackcoffeenosugar]

I would be delighted if somebody would tell me what the "take-home" salary is like under the new deal for new F/Os (as there are no DECs).

Am I right in my assuptions that you have 56500Euros basic of which you pay 25% tax to Portugal and 8% of the remaining in NI to the UK? - (Should work out to be about 30% of the total)
- Then you have the option to say yes to be potentially rostered another 6 day a year for 4200 Euros that will be added to your basics? Are the extra 4200 taxed the same?
- And then 70 Euros per diem per day with no tax? How many days per diems do you usually get?

Is breakfast normaly included in your hotacs? Do you get crewmeals onboard?
Thanks again!

[difrips]

Hawker pilot,


There is no long range ops in the middle east. No matter the type you are on, you will fly a mixture of routes. Short hops and the 14h flights!

I just came back from a 15hrs turn around flight on the famous CAP372 split duty regulations!

We pair flights like Gulf-KIX-Gulf (min rest)-LHR(min rest)-Gulf

Or a BAH turnaround after coming back from LHR

I did a MNL flight with total duty of 18hrs ( 3 man crew). 3 hrs discretion plus 2 extra hours by special exception of the CAA!

Our whole route structure is EAST-WEST.....No limitations on number of time zones crossed.

On the A330 , no rest compartment provided...we take rest in row 52 next to the toilets in economy class!

So dont complain and say I have no idea about MAX DUTY Days!

As far as braking the rules go....We own the CAA in this country so we brake rules on a daily bases e.g. the extra discretion as mentioned above!

Tech logs are changed so the airplanes can fly, maintenance gets postponed due to lack of manpower!

Captains are FORCED against all regulations (international as well as national) to get the flight going! If needed, the CEO of the Cie himself will come on board and threaten to fire you if you dont get airborn within 5 mins!

We fly CAT IIIB approaches although we are only CAT IIIA approved! Company orders!

And I can go on and on.....


But sorry mate...Dont you pretend that only NJE makes you brake the rules from time to time! Dont pretend you are the only pilots being tired or doing max duty! This is aviation right now!

And thats regretabble, I agree, but we (the pilots) let it come this far!

And if I have to do that, Id rather do it when being able to live in my country, where I know my wife and kids are safe and where I can go to the pub and have a beer whenever I want!

I can understand your grievances, do not get me wrong on that! But hey, the perfect job DOES NOT exist anymore.

And for me personally, NJE comes pretty close to what I want!

[Smeagel]

difrips.

At no point did Hawkerpilot say Netjets was the only company acting the way they do.

If the offered deal (be prepared for it to change without warning or consultation) suits you that's great. I'm happy for you. No need to be so defensive. All Hawkerpilot was doing was sharing knowledge. If anyone takes their (NJE) shilling and gets shafted the same way many others have in the past they can hardly claim they were not told.

[difrips]

I am not being defensive, I am just sharing some facts about the outside world as well.

I have been reading lots of treads here and the same complaints keep on coming back time over time. This being said, I have many friends inside NJE who actually do not agree with what is being written. These are guys who have been there for three/four years so I guess they know what they are talking about.

These guys are friends of mine and they all recommended me joining NJE. They told me all the good stuff as well as the bad stuff and I have to say...The overall picture I got was more than positive.

The people I dealth with during the selection where all very nice and professional people. I was amazed by the level of attention you get as a candidate, as well as the overall level of the selection.

Same thing regarding the follow up afterwards....

What happend in the past with the changes in the package was done, if I am not mistaken, by a different management team. From what I hear now, lots of NJE pilots actually are confident that the new team will do a much better job!

I am the first one to say that it is almost difficult for long term pilots to see things like that. You guys have built the company with your own hands, went that extra mile. And now you are dissappointed that there is not more recognition for your loyalty. I understand that...I went through something similar overhere.
This is very typical for the modern style of management. In the early days people joined a company looking for a long term career. Management counted on that as well. This is not there anymore...It is coming back however.

You got a profitsharing sheme just now...OK, its a bit thin but hey, its a start. Its a sign as well that management recognises that there is a problem. As you said before, if there was no necessity they would have never given it to you in the first place!
And I am sure this is not the last thing either....with the number of odrers placed the NJE deal is bound to become better due to the looming pilot shortage!

And they will always be short, just because the majority of pilots is aiming for an airline, not a job in GA!

So yes, I understand your grievances and frustration, but dont let this blind you for the actual good things that are being offered.

Sometimes its good to take some distance and leave what you know behind. There are jobs enough around ....step back and enjoy the new breath of fresh air. Start all over again....That is what I have done and it feels good, I can tell you that!

[hawkerpilot]

"Captains are FORCED against all regulations (international as well as national) to get the flight going! If needed, the CEO of the Cie himself will come on board and threaten to fire you if you dont get airborn within 5 mins!

difrips and others, WHY DO WE EXCEPT ALL THESE THINGS?? are we so busy making money we do not care anymore?

I see that your company looks a lot alike netjets, same profile, same kind of management pressure, I am sure that there are a few more like that.

We should put those companies on a "pilot blacklist"

Maybe then they will change

Or is everybody more into money than values?

Lets start another thread .......

[HermanTheGerman]

I am just thinking of sending an application to NJE. The question is, would I have to singn a bonding if I join them? I would bring a current C550 rating with me- so for me, if I would start on the Bravo (and with my experience I think I would) would I have to sign a bonding contract for -lets say- 2 years?

any ideas?

[SayMach#]

Hi Hermann,

you might get Bravo without a bond and the company woulsen you to a recurrent course. But,no guaranty. You mightgt something else wit a two year bond. In addition, if you get a larg cabin (F2000 onwards) you are seat-locked fo 18 months too, before you can upgrade on the small fleet.

[SayMach#]

Sorry for all the mistaes, my keyboard is goin nuts!:confused:

[HermanTheGerman]

...there is no influence by the candidate himself? Or could you even say: "well I would love to go on the Bravo instead of...?"

or is NJE asking which aircraft you prefer?

[EatMyShorts!]

or is NJE asking which aircraft you prefer? You are funny :D No, usually they don't ask this - or nobody would be flying the Bravos or 400s :eek:

But indeed I have seen both: people with a valid rating have been put on a completely different type of aircraft, but at the same time rated people only had to do an "extended" recurrent check (a few more sessions to learn our "SOPs") and could stay on their plane. Best is to mention your wish during the interview.

[Flintstone]

'Search' anyone?:ugh:

[Bonzoboy]

Hi Guys............please could someone help me with this one. I have an interview with Netjets very soon. I have about 10k flying hours on many types..including 747's as FO. What types of aircraft do NJ start you on?

By the way NJ sounds great. Any responses welcome please. Ta.:)

[south coast]

Bonzo, perhaps scroll up a bit and read what our learned friend Mr.Jenvey has written, might answer your questions!

Flinstone, give me 'ope Johanna...

Apologies, it is the other thread.

[Bonzoboy]

Thank you Mike. I have the interview coming up soon.

[Gezaware]

Hi all.
I am a mil pilot who has just made a very big decision to leave the service after 18 years of continuous flying. I have flown fast jets for the last 15 years and was offered extended service to 55 years to continue flying. I have turned down what on paper looks like the perfect flying job, cetainly the one I envisaged doing when this spotty kid stood watching at air shows but as with all jobs there are many reasons why for some its fantastic and for others it can be loathsome. I still enjoy the time spent in the jet but for many reasons for me its time for a change. In many ways the RAF is not unlike other companies, frustations and problems are there but of a different nature.
The reason I am posting here is because I am consisdering netjets. Several friends from the air force are in or are going to NJE. The ones who are there love it but are also very candid in explaining the bad and good points. Equally I have been watching the threads over the last 5 months or so and have picked up all I can regarding the company. The limitations of pprune is that you only see what the few percent who actually post and in the case of NJ its the same names. If you read the mil aircrew side you will see the same mix of good and bad but again from the very small percent that actually post. I too have invested a long time in my current job! so I am very keen to prepare for the next step as much as I can so would appreciate any thoughts you have.
Thanks

[south coast]

No job is perfect, but, even with its problems, I really like working for NJ.

I hope one day they can resolve some realistic problems.

At the end of the day they are a business and are there to make money.

[Min Drag]

I am currently flying 757's but am looking to improve my lifestyle and move to France and NJ seems to tick a lot of the boxes.

I have managed to get a very good idea of T's & C's from this forum and by talking to a couple of people. Whilst they may not be the best the quality of life tick (especially stable rostering?) may well make up for it.

As far as I understand it if I live in France working for NJ I will be liable to tax in Portugal @ 25% and NI contributions in the UK @ 8%. Can someone confirm this and tell me whether the tax @ 25% is on the whole of your salary or is it tiered as per UK? Is the 8% NI on Gross or Net pay?

Is there any news yet on the improved pension scheme?

MD:)

[CL300]

no tier whole salary, UK NI on the the whole gross as well.
No news on pension yet, still working...

[Min Drag]

Thanks for that CL300.

33% of total gross is pretty painful and would be a significant pay cut but it's worth thinking about especially if my lot can't sort out a decent rostering agreement.

[Blackcoffeenosugar]

Could anybody tell me if you tax on your per diems??
Thanks

[CL300]

per diem are taxable depending on the country you live in , for example in france it is , but in UK and portugal it is not.

[Fly me to the moon]

CL300,
Are you sure about the fact the tax applies on PerDiem in France ? It's quite surprising ! Does it mean that you pay 25% tax in Portugal and then you have to declare your Per Diem in France ?!
Don't know where you live, but I guess in that case that one could also declare all the professional expenses (Cleaning, food, etc...) and lower down the Per Diem declaration nearby 0 !!!
!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: French administration !!!:ugh: :ugh:

[CL300]

Per diem , as per french law are a lump sum of reimbursement of your expenses, therefore if the company pays for your hotels, Airlines, breakfast, etc, It is considered as an indirect wage so taxable, by filing your tax return, these per diems have to be included in your earnings, THEN you can deduct your expenses, like cleaning and other real expenses ( car park, car mileage, etc..) Airline pilots are using the so-called Air France amounts for overnight in tour; this is very nice, up to the point that we ( non UK or Portugal) are not employed by an airline, but by a third entity, as a consequence you are not 'by the book' entitled to such deductions.
So for us, there is no maximal amount that would be considered untaxable, the only way around it is to transfer the money out of france, but with a 25% tax level one's can afford to declare his/hers per-diem and still have plenty of credit....:uhoh:

[Fly me to the moon]

Thanks for the information. I fly Air Force (But will be a Netjets driver soon!) and I already deduct a lot. It's a deal with the tax administration. They agreed that it was fair that I could deduct my cleaning, hairdresser et other stuff even if I wasn't an Air France bus driver !! happy to have met a nice person the day I went to argue !!!
I'll have to learn all those little tips after the Indoc !!
I guess you're French !!;)

[Blackcoffeenosugar]

Don't y'all just love tax and tax rules!? :(
Thank you for the info! Sounds like a good pay deal then!
Got a pm saying something about allowance from nje for a tax lawyer? Has anybody else heard about this?

[CL300]

You are correct, it depends a lot whith whom you deal with at the tax office. French Air Force DO have the assimilisation of state empoyees which is the same as AF..Yep french South East Corner:p

[Fly me to the moon]

Bonjour,
Not sure FAF as the same tax deal as AF. We're not "registre A". My argument was that it was unfair to pay more tax than an AF pilot with half of the salary! They agreed and now I deduct ! I think everything goes smoothly when we explain things (With tax administration or in a cockpit !)
I'm also South , but not in the corner ! :) . Got to move soon near a gateway:ok:

[the_bookkeeper]

I have sim at Netjets in april!

What I am wondering about is the tax situation.

Do I have to pay tax in portugal, england and in my home country (Austria)?

And what about my social protection, if I have to go to a doctor or hospital, do I have to pay it myself?

Thx

[Scroll Lock]

Oh come on!!!
Think about it. Do you know anywhere in the world where they will get you to pay taxes in 3 countries ???

For crying out loud, the endless stupid questions BEFORE you guys go to interview is so tiring.
ALL will be explained if you get through.

:ugh:

[the_bookkeeper]

ok, so, if they explain everything, it is ok for me, but there a lot of rumours around.
And if I would have to give 50% tax of my income, netjets would not be interesting anymore.

[suchiman]

Scroll Lock, yes I do know a place where you pay in three places! It´s called NET JETS EUROPE! There are quite a few countries in the EU that do not accept the fact that we work for under a British contract, pay 25% taxes in Portugal. This only suits NJE and IS NOT LEGALY NECESSARY! In the end, many people will pay 5 to 9% in UK, 25% in Portugal, and up to another 15 to 20% in their own country! On top of that there will be NO DEDUCTIONS because you only get those if you are in a established and recognised system, which this one is not! This is just a FRANKISTEIN NJE SPECIAL, in which once again, the crews come out loosing! Yes, many people will end up paying about 50% taxes, and I think that will include Austrians.

CL300, if its true that per diem is taxable in quite a few countries, which i believe, then the excuse given to us by management for not raising the perdium after 5 years is another load of COW DUNG! They say that they cannot raise it because the maximum approved by the UK tax authorities tax free is 7o euros! Raise it for everybody, I dont care if the british have to pay tax on it, SO DO WE!!!

[transilvana]

the 70€ on UK max? I don´t beleive it, I have been offered 100€ per diem on an UK company

[Fly me to the moon]

European unified tax system isn't for tomorrow !!! If I have to pay 50% tax, I think I'll officially live in a 3 square inch mailbox in Caiman island !!! Let's ask our politicians the best way to procede !!:cool:

[Scroll Lock]

Well then suchiman, guess your CV is already on many desks.
As I and others have already said....if you don't like it here, then just leave.

The deal and all it's FAQ's was well represented and there is a minority of disallusioned 'non-workers' who continue to bitch and moan.
I bet youre the type who also grounds aircraft for cockpit light bulbs U/S !!!

rant over

[artip]

"I bet youre the type who also grounds aircraft for cockpit light bulbs U/S !!"


I hope you are not the guy who always flies arround with several snags on the plane and leaves it up to the next crew!

Cockpit lightbulbs do have a function and if they are inop, you're supposed to either MEL it or ground it!

About the "deal" and the FAQ's, it was well sold to us!
It was created in a hurry, with little thought of the consequenses for several countries.
It again, only benefits the UK residents!

[Min Drag]

For crying out loud, the endless stupid questions BEFORE you guys go to interview is so tiring.
ALL will be explained if you get through.

Scroll Lock - lovely attitude my friend. I was hoping, along with some others here, to get a couple of answers re: the tax situation.

Why waste everyones' time going to an interview if you can find out beforehand that the package that will be offered isn't going to be acceptable?

If the endless stupid questions are tiring you out, then turn off your computer and go to sleep:ok:

For those who have posted good info here cheers it has been much appreciated. Unforunately, for now, NJ's lifestyle doesn't make up for the financial loss for me personally but best of luck to those of you that are heading their way.

MD

[Scroll Lock]

Cockpit lights can be changed by aircrew.
Questions ARE tiring, especially if the person concerned is too lazy to use the SEARCH function on this webite. ( I believe 4HP agreed with me last time out )

[Smeagel]

As charming as ever eh, Scroll Lock?


To summarise your recent posts:

1. 'Anyone who works in NJE and objects to the way they are grossly mistreated should just leave' (which many are already doing). Never mind the years of effort they have already invested on the promise of things improving later "When we make a profit". Well, they finally admitted to making a profit, where is the reward for those who helped them get there? I don't mean the bonusses paid to management, I mean for the ones who actually grafted long before you and many others got there.

2. 'Anyone considering joining the company is not allowed to ask questions beforehand but instead should waste their time applying only to find out the dubious tax arrangements later on'. Many of the potential applicants are sufficiently qualified and experienced to be in demand in the current market, not people unable to secure 'decent' jobs. They are professionals and deserve to be treated as such. Your dismissal of their (genuine) concerns is arrogant.

I'm sure you meant to write 'disillusioned' whereas you wrote "disallusioned". Allusion means to make passing reference. You know, in much the same way NJE management make only passing reference to the less pleasant aspects of their enforced contract changes. The ones they impose on their workforce without consultation and that make a contract with the company not worth the paper it's written on.

Oh, whoop de doo. 4HP agreed with you once. Does that grant you some kind of special status? That must have been after the time you threatened to identify me to NJE management which if I know PPRuNe must have brought you very close to a ban. Not quite the shining light of the forum you would have us believe though, are you?

I agree with you on one point. Anyone thinking of joining NJE should use the 'Search' function and read all the old threads paying particular attention to those that explain how management treat their staff.

[erikv]

bookkeeper and others

the exact situation may vary by country, depending on the type of bilateral agreements in force. Most countries have the type of agreement where, once taxed in Portugal, your salary will not be taxed again at home. Austria, Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Luxemburg, Netherlands, Norway and Switzerland are among those.

Denmark, Italy, Spain and Sweden have the other type. There you will get credit for the tax paid in Portugal, but you will still have to pay the difference between the 25% and the higher local rates. In the end, this should be the same as paying the normal rates at home.

If you want to make sure, check the website of your national tax service. In my case (NL), all the bilaterals are there. Search for double taxation treaties, place of effective management.

Erik

[4HolerPoler]

Keep me out of this one please guys.

And by all means strike up a lively, even heated debate.

But if you're going hurl insults please do it by PM or email & spare us observers the invictive.

4HP