Aerodrome Lights Policy

[737incognito]

At our, 3rd world, home base international airport the newly installed cat II approach and tdz lights are turned on only during actual LVP. We would like to change this since it is quite useful having them on during everyday operation. I've also noticed that on airports around the world exactly this is policy: all available lights are on 24/7.
Would anybody know of any reference regarding this in any of JAA/ICAO/FAA... or any other document that we can use to prove our case. Would appreciate it very much.
Thanks

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I remember pilots approaching Manch Rwy 24 liked the Calverts and Rwy lights full on when the Sun was getting near to the horizon. It was the only way they could see the TDZ when the sun was beneath the glare visors. I understand that reflection off their white shirts made matters worse.

[Chilli Monster]

Can't say I've noticed the same flying into various European airports.

There is a problem with TDZ's all the time of a practical nature - they get bl**dy hot! So - you start doing multiple line ups, with the attendant runway holding, and you're going to cook the customers tyres.

Supplementary Approach lighting, when not required, can be quite distracting on the approach - I would consign this idea to to the dustbin if I were you.

p.s - Just noticed you're a pilot, not ATC. We will, of course, put on extra lighting when it is felt to be necessary. However, not being funny, and slightly tongue in cheek, but - do you leave your house lights on all day? No - because of the ELECTRICITY BILL! ;)

[vintage ATCO]

In the UK the recommended lighting for particular conditions is tabled in CAP168 (available on the CAA website). The ICAO equivalent in Annex 14. We don't display anymore lights than we have to. Save the planet. :)

[737incognito]

Thank you all for your inputs. I looked up in the mentioned document and this is what I've found in CAP 168:

1.2 Periods of display of Aeronautical Ground Lighting

1.2.1 Aeronautical ground lighting should be displayed at least 15 minutes before the estimated time of arrival of any aircraft and until at least 15 minutes after the actual time of departure of any aircraft as follows:

By day: High intensity systems, where installed on the runway to be used, whenever the visibility is less than 5 km and/or the cloud base is less than 700 ft.

By night: Irrespective of weather conditions.

Now, you can argue what the systems mean but my opinion is that, as everything is costs vs. safety and being pilot I beleive having the all available light on helps make safer landings. And finaly I remember well that at airports like EGLL, EDDF, EHAM... lights are ON all the time. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[vintage ATCO]

737

If you care to look at Table 6.1, above the piece you quote in CAP168, you will see what lights are required in differing weather conditions. Strictly, this is what is required to meet licensing requirements, but it follows that is what is displayed in those conditions. You quote says that high intensity systems, where installed, are to be displayed in less than 5km and/or 700ft. And they are. Throwing money at something (leaving all the lights on all of the time - using more electricity, reduced lamp life) does not necessarily make something safer. Someone would have done a hazard analysis on all this.

[737incognito]

Vintage ATCO,
first thank you for your time.
I've just checked my original posting and realised that I misused phrase "24/7". What I ment is "whenever there is t/o or ldg". I realy don't care if they turn everything off and take a coffee brake in idle periods.
I also think the table is for licencing. Finaly, during night would you turn all the lights on (including TDZ lights) few minutes (or 15 as cAP says) before estimated ldg time or not?

[BOK2GO]

I'm not sure if our policies differ here, but in Cape Town we're CAT 3b rated. Touchdown lighting is only used during inclement weather, night time operations and reduced visibilty conditions (dusk, dawn, haze, etc)
We don't really see the point of it in daytime VMC conditions. Pilots have enough to monitor while on final approach.

[vintage ATCO]

737

Maybe we are at cross purposes, I dunno.

I wouldn't turn lights off in between movements, we're too busy for that. However neither would I display the TDZ or Supplementary Approach lights unless the conditions are as, or near, the table in CAP168. We're not pedantic with this, to some extent it's 'what it looks like' out of the window. But certainly it is not 'everything, all of the time when there are movements', it is not necessary.

Our lighting system is configured for several preset conditions, day, twilight, night, and four different settings. Two button pushes does all. We do have individual control over each circuit but for majority of the time we use the presets.

[TheOddOne]

At EGKK, if all the available services on the main runway were displayed at 100% during normal viz, the pilots would be so blinded as to be unable to see to land. It's really bad when we have to have them up all the way for inspections; likewise this morning when we were brushing snow for a couple of hours (very successfully, actually, as a bit of thread creep)

Now, during normal ops, we only display the 5-bar Calvert approach, threshold green,, centreline, edge, TDZ and stop end lights at 3%. With the modern lamps we have that actually meet the output spec in CAP 168, they are too bright, even at that setting. The Supplimentaries and any increase in intensity setting are only used when necessary in Low Vis. Actually, for CAT III, where decision heights are AFTER the approach lights have been passed, you can make out a case for not having them on at all!

So, when you're talking about what lights to have on, you should also qualify it by quoting an intensity setting, too.

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[737incognito]

I will start from beginning to make myself clear.
Airport I'm talking about got recently cat II with all the lights that goes with it. I guess there are all kind of lights that were installed but at this point I'm talking about CL and TDZ lights as they greatly help with judging my flare but are not necessary for cat I airport. I called this light "high intensity" as opposed to taxiway and apron lights. I'm not suggesting they should be at high intensity all the time.
ATC insists turning those lights ON only during actual or near LVP. During nights lights are OFF which makes a kind of a black hole effect on flare. I believe that if lights exist they should be ON during night and ON during day (except when cavok, maybe). I see that you guys have setting preset or know exact setting (in %) for every condition and my local ATC would figure these settings after just few days of use in non-LVP condition (with some pilot input).
I would appreciate if you give me those settings for day/dusk/down/night etc so that I can pass that info to Tower.

[vintage ATCO]

737

Our presets would have been built around table 6.1 from CAP168 including what is 'Operationally Desired' as well as 'Required'. We always display rwy centreline at night.

No reason why you shouldn't ask for particular lights if you want. I would always respond to a request inc varying intensities if possible.

HTH

[av8boy]

Mr. Vintage has again hit the nail on the head.

We're not pedantic with this, to some extent it's 'what it looks like' out of the window.

and

No reason why you shouldn't ask for particular lights if you want. I would always respond to a request inc varying intensities if possible.

On this side of the pond we've also got clear guidelines as to "what lights when." However, the lights are there to help you, the driver, not me, the ATCer. The local controller is always prepared to make adjustments based upon what it looks like out there and, most importantly, what a pilot requests.

So ask. Mine's a service-oriented job. So is ATC at your airport.

Dave

[737incognito]

I'm sure you guys do everything to help. It's also case with the ATCO at my airport. However, because it's new sometimes we forget to ask, and sometimes you feel they are in doubt because they are thought that the lights are just for actual LVP.
I have a meeting with them and will show them a table 6.1 plus this disscusion to see if we can reach agreement on minimum lights during night and situation like dusk/dawn.
As ever, pprune was great help and I thank you all for your time and inputs, expecialy Vintage ATCO.

[av8boy]

And whether or not an agreement is reached, do not hesitate to make your request when you need a lighting configuration that differs from the one you see. I mean... would you hesitate to ask for a wind check on final? The runway is there for you to land your aircraft on and the lights and the wind check and the braking action and everything else we do is there to help with that.

I'm over 30 years in the business and I'm telling you. We signed-up to help.

Dave

[normally right blank]

"During nights lights are OFF which makes a kind of a black hole effect on flare.":confused:
I'd suggest to take the controllers on a cockpit ride. Could be an eye opener.
What's the cost of an aircraft running off the runway, or just a diversion? The "actual" cost of leaving the runway lights "on" are really insignificant, but every 2 or 3 years an enterprising "paper-pusher" will get the "saving" idea of the year. (i.e. NOT to use the runway lights. Happens here in the "1'st world" (?) :rolleyes: too!)