NetJets Ab Initio & Cadet issues

[Lever]

It seems that the Wannabes section is all abuzz, waiting for an announcement from Oxford Air Training www.oxfordaviation.net (http://www.oxfordaviation.net/) this Monday about a cadet pilot scheme for NetJets.

Surely this is madness, if true?

The entire marketing model is built around security and safety.

An ATPL holding (1500 hr+), experienced and well trained Co-Pilot is always going to be better than a kid with 250 hours, irrespective of his training.

NetJets Europe flew to 800 airports last year, on every continent. They flew to some of the most demanding Cat B and C airports - generally with very little notice for Crews and training that amounts to scant guidance on the back of a piece of paper.

Why on earth would they put a kid into that environment?



Lever.

[Algy]

Read all about it. (http://shortlinks.co.uk/18r)

[whitespiral]

Lever,

I completely agree. Especially at a time when they should be bolstering their experience and safety credentials, what with new entrants like Jetbird et al just around the corner.

I'm curious, what crew requirements what you make if you were Netjets?

[123abc]

I think you grossly underestimate the abilities of properly trained ab initio pilots.

[whitespiral]

I don't-quite to the contrary. I think you might slightly underestimate how all this translates to marketing.

[bizantin]

Hi,

I agree this is complete madness. It is not only a disgrace towards the owners but a search for a crash. Line trainers are already fighting to get 1500hour guys released and some are even considering resigning from this function. Is it worth loosing your licence our worse your life for...10%!
Ab initios will just generate more problems than they will help.
So far mentionning ab initios was a joke amongst us. Now we do not laugh anymore...we are scared.

This is a sign of panic sent by the management.

For the ones considering to apply...good luck you have a long long harsh way to go!

biz

[Maz11]

Lever,

You say that,

The entire marketing model is built around security and safety.

Well surely the same applies for all airline companies. Why on earth would they want to be seen as unsafe. That would mean that no company should take on an Ab-Initio "kid" because in your opinion they aren't safe!!

Bit of an insult don't you think. Personally i was lucky enough to walk straight out of my training and into a job with a major UK charter company, and i was flying the A320/21 around whilst i was still 19.

I suppose you think that when someone comes out of flying school they should be an instructor for a couple of years, then move to a regional turboprop operator for another couple of years before finally moving onto the so called 'shiny jet'.

Obviously quite a few companies don't think that and believe that hiring a low hours, recently graduated student, who hasn't had time to pick up any bad habbits or lose too much of the vast amount of info they've had to cram into their brain during the training, is a good thing. And in many cases they're right.

Just because you've got 1500+ hours and your ATPL is unfrozen doesn't neccesairly make you any safer than a low hours cadet. More experienced maybe but as we all know that can lead to its own problems. If it happens, give the guys/girls a chance, you might just be supprised!!

[Aussie]

If a 21 yr old can fly a Hornet, im sure theyll do well on a commercial Jet!

[Aussie]

Yeah another thread in Terms and Endearment about it...

Some very pissed off people!

[Aussie]

Just a question from that article.... does that mean direct entry FO will be slowed down?

[Lever]

There is nothing wrong with the potential of a 21 year old with 250 hours of decent training.

But whichever way you cut it, he doesn't have any experience worth talking about.

A typical airline will have no more than 30 or 40 different destinations for a Co-Pilot to get familair with.
In NetJets he will have hundreds.

He'll fly into Cat B and C airfields from Day 1.
He fly into former CIS from Day 1.
He'll fly non-APU, nil support from Day 1.
He'll fly with Line Trainers who are totally maxed as it is.
He'll fly on business jets that get 2 - 3 times the number of flying hours each year than others of comparable type.

He'll fly for Owners who were promised 2 Captains on every flight.

He is screwed.


Lever

[PPL152]

Ab-initios into NetJets will start off with the hard times at the beginning of their careers, unlike the older, lazier pilots.

Those having 1500hours and more would have been doing easy stuff, finding everything ready, perfect approaches etc, then go to NetJets and... surprise!

Has its ups and downs. Depends on each and everyone of us. That's why they have a rigorous selection process - to get the motivated, bright ones.

[Fournier Boy]

Why the presumption that you are only going to get 21 year old 250hr pilots? I'll be applying for the NetJet/OAT scheme, I'm not 21 (i'm not much more), and when I come out I may only have 250hrs, but what my face wont show is that I also have 10 years and about 700 hrs gliding - both in a competition and instructing enviroment. Motorgliding / Microlighting, they all add experience, not to the ATPL tho it appears....

I lost out to sponsored training due to 9/11 (had been accepted on a course which was subsequently cancelled) this gave me the opportunity of working in many areas of the aviation industry with many excellent people.

I've been lucky enough to fly a very wide range of fantastic aircraft - but lacking a full PPL(A), I can't log it. In an engineering environment, we flew all round the country maintaining customers planes, new strips, different weather, new types. None of this will show in a logbook, just photos and memories.

I am now a type rated (on big jets) LAE with a major UK Airline, and it is only now that I am in a position to fund myself to the next level and a move to flight deck.

Please don't tar all ab-initio wannabes with the same brush, I'm sure there are many out there who have been striving for this since they were very young. Unfortunately my background wasn't condusive to this career route, I've not been as lucky as some people I know - afterall mum and dad can't pay for me to go to oxford - but I'd like to go there and i've worked hard to get within half a chance of doing so.

Some of the comments here have been a little close to the edge, childish almost. I'm sure as a member of the flightdeck, there is a responsibility there to work with your colleagues as a team, if your colleague is fresh out of training, surely you give them a chance, and don't take him/her for face value, afterall, even YOU had to start somewhere....

[mgTF]

If I'm not wrog there was a common belief that netjet pilot were the best...

what will customer think?? :uhoh:

[Flintstone]

I think what those of you who have not worked for Netjets or any operation like it need to take into account is the amount of pressure put upon the crews on a daily basis, something not experienced by those flying back and forth to a limited number of destinations with dedicated backup at each end of the route.

The job is somewhat more difficult than working for an airline where the engineers, ground and cabin crew prepare the aircraft leaving the pilots to show up, board the aircraft, turn left and go flying (an oversimplification I know). There are no such things as fixed schedules, fixed routes and the like. Over and above flying the aircraft the crew are required to take care of catering, seek out weather and notams, liase with Ops over multiple changes and be in position nice and early to meet the passengers and load their baggage.

Without doubt this requires additional capacity which any ab initio pilot will struggle to have. Add to this the fact that many of the fleets do not have the room for safety pilots when the new guys are on board and you can see why the line trainers do not relish the prospect.

[smallfry]

As a NetJets pilot, I am not against the program.
I think that we have an opportunity to move forward a few steps here. Up until now we have such a variety of backgrounds it is 'a challenge' to get everyone standardised. With the cadets the standards should be there from the start.
The training department is working very hard at setting up a program to expose the cadets to all the most commonly visited 'tricky' airports. - Before they fly with owners. They will not be let loose until the TRE/TRI and standards guys have approved their progress. They will fly with lots of line trainers who have a task ahead, granted, but some of the 'experienced' guys we have been training aren't so quick to change old habits and learn new procedures. A fresh approach might be just what we need. They will not be expecting to jump straight into the left hand seats, and so will be content to learn and absorb as much as they can, and vitally, gain experience on the job.
The Marketing department are well aware of what the owners are sold... they sold it to them.
They are going to have to explain to the owners that cadet pilots are only going to be flying with us when they have met the same standard as everyone else on the line. The Captain will not be a low houred cadet. Our TREs/TRIs, Standards Captains, Line trainers and Captains are on the whole a very level headed, solid bunch of professional guys and gals.
I hope that the cadets that succeed with us are going to rise to the challenge, and enjoy the job.
Nobody in the company has ever said that this is the easiest job in Europe, and it takes a certain type of person to fit in, but the people on the line are fun, friendly, and will welcome the new pilots with pleasure.
The Netjets critics will get all irritated by my post, but the vast majority of NetJets pilots will feel similarly to me.
Welcome to you all, and lets hope some of the Lisbon support people can make a few of their dreams come true with this chance to fly as well.

[Chilli Monster]

If I'm not wrog there was a common belief that netjet pilot were the best...

Judging by some of the experiences I've had - not necessarily!

[PPRuNeUser0215]

If I'm not wrog there was a common belief that netjet pilot were the best...
You can have 250 hours and still be the best... For this level of experience that is.
Many companies advertise having/recruiting only the best. Makes me wonder though because if we all are the best, where are the crap ones? The company who has them must be very unlucky :D :D :D

Seriously though, there is no best best pilots but in my view only good training, SOPs, Safety culture and well maintained aircrafts.
With all that in place, we can then all play at being the best (if one fancies it).

[redsnail]

Aussie,

I doubt it, the direct entry FO should be able to be promoted to the LHS a lot quicker than the cadet FO.

[TurboJ]

This scheme makes me laugh.....

I regularly get emails from Netjets telling me I need 1500hrs.
Now they go to Oxford and intend hiring teenagers with 250hrs of which only 150hrs max is actually flying an aircraft - no more than 100hrs of which is solo time....i.e. them making decisions for themselves.....most of it following a highway in Arizona.

Why isn't it a level playing field? Its all or nothing ?

[Aussie]

Thanks again Reddo!

You always come through with the goods!

[Aussie]

By the sounds of it there is no leeway on those 1500hrs!?!

[SiTurn]

so just to clarify, when my boss owned a netjets share some time ago, he was repeatedly told of the very high minimum qualifications that all pilots were suppied with. Are netjets now going to tell all of their owners that they are 'reducing the minimum requirements' to fly their aircraft and owners??

[flyinginthesun]

Quote: This scheme makes me laugh.....

I regularly get emails from Netjets telling me I need 1500hrs.
Now they go to Oxford and intend hiring teenagers with 250hrs of which only 150hrs max is actually flying an aircraft - no more than 100hrs of which is solo time....i.e. them making decisions for themselves.....most of it following a highway in Arizona.

Why isn't it a level playing field? Its all or nothing ?


I agree with you completely, except this doesn't make me laugh any longer, it makes me cry! I spend my life dragging and cajoling some of these young people through their courses so they can jump the queue to the front of a jet, meanwhile the very experienced and talented pilots training them get responses that you mention above - or no responses at all.

[Flintstone]

Does she?

Hey reddo!!! What's your phone number luv?!:cool:

[redsnail]

Hey pella, you bin knowing mah numba por long time.
You gottim smoke?
Wan some lady in a boat? Betta dan dat grange ****e.

:E

[High Wing Drifter]

I don't really understand the two extremes of NetJets recruitment, 1500 hrs or , errm, zilch with nothing in between!

[mgTF]

flyinginthesun I'm completely agree with you nowadays each son of a rich father can pay for the type rating with 200hrs and jump the queue!!!

and then they tell you sorry you are below our requirements... :ugh:

[redsnail]

I wouldn't throw all the teddies out of the cot just yet.

Fight fang and claw to get a job. (yes I am familiar with how hard it is). Whether it be instructing (and keeping your eye in on the bizjet that parks up a hanger or two nearby), getting a t'prop job (something nice, like an ATR or Dash 8 or failing that, a Shorts 360) or shifting to Africa for a year. Get some hours or so and it won't be long until you have the hours for a direct entry pilot.

Have a plan and do every thing you can to make it happen. Ideally, the more experience you have on the type of job Netjets does then the better your chances will be. Also, you'll probably look pretty good for other airlines too.

There's a good mix of experience in Netjets, some are ex airline, some ex military, ex night freight, others GA. (Many a combination of the above)

[smallfry]

I am sorry that you feel that there is an unfairness to this proposal, but it is standard practice with cadet schemes vs DEP schemes. If a company is going to get Cadets trained the way they want, following their training progress carefully, with lots of intermediate checks and markers, then they will accept low hours. But if somebody who they have no idea of the quality of their training comes along (DEP), then NetJets, (and any other company running the same sort of scheme) has to set a 'standard'. The minimum of which is 1500 Hrs and a frozen ATPL. -or whatever, generally dictated by insurances, but I am not sure of the fine details.
Before you jump on me, I had to work my way through to where I am now. No 'rich father', as somebody said.
Nobody said aviation owed us anything.
However, if and when you do have the 1500 hrs and if you still want a job with NJE, I am sure that they would be pleased to have you, and you would do as well as anyone else. You would after all have 1500 hrs more than the cadets and would therefore be that far ahead when it came to Upgrades and Long Haul fleets.

[TurboJ]

smallfry - how does your theory apply to the people who train these 'cadets' who still can't get into Netjets because they don't have 1500hrs ?

[Life's a Beech]

I'm not a NetJets pilot, not even in turbines, but being in GA I have a lot of the same pressures they suffer, and I chat with a lot of them who I meet at various handling agents. I can see NJ captains being rather overburdened to have such an inexperienced FO flying with them, pressured on the ground and in the air by having a lot less support.

We learn a lot in our first 1500 hours - I am there, and can apply to NJE so do not have any axe to grind. I just have seen the struggles of inexperienced pilots I have line trained in our business, where inexperienced is "over 700 hours with a minimum of 400 hours P1", not "180 hours plus a type rating, 80 hours P1, some of that SPIC".

[south coast]

**quote**how does your theory apply to the people who train these 'cadets' who still can't get into Netjets because they don't have 1500hrs ?

Do you think because you might be training these people you are special?
Its simple...if you have 1500 hours you go for the direct entry, if you dont you go for the cadetship.

Would you also say to BA if you were training their cadets, 'hey I am training your cadets but I dont meet your direct entry requirements, but come on, give me a job?
'
Being their instructor doesnt mean anything, you teach people a skill. (dont get me wrong, I am sure you are good at it and I respect you for doing that job) but if you dont have 1500 hours you are not deemed by the employer to have the level of experience they are looking for.

To be honest, bombing around in a Warrior or Duchess doing steep turns, stalls, vfr cross countries, IFR training etc is not very similar to what actually happens in the world of commercial aviation, and thats why you need to have a starting point where they say, ok, we will look at you from this point and that point is 1500 hours.

[bizantin]

The main problem is the training!!! You can train cadet if you have proper training. Netjets can hardly train experienced pilots. Line trainers struggle to release the new hired. A few years ago, we already recruited ab initios...Sabena ab initios. They were peace of cake to release. Now line trainers all admit it is more and more demanding and challenging.
Netjets' Ab initios scheme is a shot in the foot!

[TurboJ]

Do you think because you might be training these people you are special?


No.....but there are more skills and qualities in the guy who can fly, navigate and teach than simply the one who has just passed his course ?

Its simple...if you have 1500 hours you go for the direct entry, if you dont you go for the cadetship.

What about 800hrs ? Direct entry or cadetship ?

Being their instructor doesnt mean anything

Really !

but if you dont have 1500 hours you are not deemed by the employer to have the level of experience they are looking for.


So why is a 200hr pilot straight from OAT any different ? There is a big difference between 200hrs and 1500hrs. And nearly 100hrs is FNPT2 time as well.


To be honest, bombing around in a Warrior or Duchess doing steep turns, stalls, vfr cross countries, IFR training etc is not very similar to what actually happens in the world of commercial aviation, and thats why you need to have a starting point where they say, ok, we will look at you from this point and that point is 1500 hours.

So why one rule for one and one for the other ?

[south coast]

quote

No.....but there are more skills and qualities in the guy who can fly, navigate and teach than simply the one who has just passed his course ?

But you dont have 1500 hours!

quote

What about 800hrs ? Direct entry or cadetship

Is 800 hours 1500?

quote

So why is a 200hr pilot straight from OAT any different ? There is a big difference between 200hrs and 1500hrs. And nearly 100hrs is FNPT2 time as well.

Because they are offering a CADETSHIP which means from no experience to low experience.

quote

So why one rule for one and one for the other ?

Yes there are two methods to join most 'airlines'.

1. Direct entry, which requires 1500 hours in NJE case.
2. The cadet programme

I am not saying your job as a FI is bad, I am just confused as to why you think as their FI you should be considered.

You are doing a very worthwhile job as a FI, we all had to learn to fly from someone, but it is not the fault of the cadets that you dont meet the minimum requirements for a direct entry pilot.

I would like to fly for Virgin, but since I dont meet their requirements I cant!

[TurboJ]

southcoast - you completely miss the point

200hrs isn't the minimum requirements either -

[space pig]

fact of the matter is that even the brightest, sharpest chap from oxford,still is what he is, a 250 hour pilot.

Airlines know that and put a safety pilot on the jumpseat or let him self be on the jumpseat for a considerable time.

Netjets can do neither.

That basically means that when the captain get's a hart attack when he realized he dived into the wrong valley in search of samedan, the novice aviator will have the task to get everybody out of there.

The problem is that he has not been there before (or is Netjets like any airline going to send people to the sim for every cat b and c airport.)

I doubt it.

So this is how this oxford idea will end up sooner or later in a drama.

I am sure customers know this and are more than happy to continue to spend their millions with their beloved family aboard................

[The Mixmaster]

Some real embittered people posting here!! If certain people took the time to THINK rather than winding themselves up into a hysterical knee-jerk response, then maybe they'd come to the conclusion that maybe, just maybe, NetJets' would have thought through this issue of training. In my experience of working at an airline new pilot's, a lot of whom are straight out of flight school, are safety released after 8 sectors of flying, some after 12. Ever heard of airlines doing base or circuit training without passengers on board? Anyone think NetJets' might be doing the same with their new recruits before releasing them on the "unsuspecting" passenger, thus allowing a safety pilot to be present.

*Waits for the inevitable, irrational "novice-pilot can't fly like I can" counterargument*

:ugh:

[LB1985]

Airlines know that and put a safety pilot on the jumpseat or let him self be on the jumpseat for a considerable time.
Netjets can do neither.
Maybe I am being thick, but why not? :confused:

[Flintstone]

Mixmaster.

As has already been pointed out though this is not comparing like with like. A new hire in an airline will fly a restricted number of routes none of which (in his/her early days) will be anything other than routine, with the benefit of a safety pilot. There is no room on most of the aircraft in the NJ fleet for a safety pilot. Certainly there will be a base check but people are questioning whether the company will bear the cost of numerous empty flights for training purposes beyond this.

Netjets freely advertise the diversity of their destinations which run into the hundreds. It will take a very special 'new' pilot and experienced training captain to make it work. Not surprisingly some of those within the company who are faced with the task of bringing these people on line are deeply concerned notwithstanding the presence of some excellent people in the training department.

Indeed I think you will find that many of the people posting in this thread are Netjets employees. Perhaps they are in the best position to know whether this is likely to work or not rather than those on the outside who have never experienced the operation first hand?

I am ex-NJE and I have my own opinion. The good news (for me) is I don't care!!:O

[The Mixmaster]

Flintstone.

I'm not attempting to wholly compare like with like. Assuming Netjets' initally allow passenger-free training flights which in turn allow a safety pilot, I see no reason as to why a NetJets' pilot will take longer to be safety released than an airline pilot. Of course they will have to undergo extensive line training which would fall outside the remit of an airline cadet, but speculation about NetJets' letting a new cadet operate as normal in the RHS without first being safety checked is just that...speculation.

PS. my point was mainly aimed at Space Pig and a few of the other cynics. I say two fingers to the cynics.

[Aussie]

Had enough of Netjets Flintstone?

[Flintstone]

Mixmaster.

Aye, and there's the rub. At the moment new hires are given their type rating course (sim), half a dozen or so circuits with a TRE then go straight into line training with passengers. It is very stressful for both the new pilot (been there) and the line trainer (been there too).

I had days where I met a new hire for the first time on the first day of his first tour and we had 45 minutes to prepare everything (non-APU, non-cabin crew aircraft). Remember, there are no engineers to prepare the aircraft in advance either.

I think the fears the current NJ pilots and trainers have is that the aircraft are just too busy to be put aside for sector training without passengers, it's a luxury they can't afford. Of course its possible this is what the company have in mind but that would be a logistical nightmare.

Anyway, it's all conjecture.



Aussie. Long story;)

All resolved now though:ok:

[Taxi2parking]

Mixmaster you are clearly unaware of the facts.......

[The Mixmaster]

:D And you are?

[The Mixmaster]

Flintstone, I hear you man. Everyone's got to start somewhere. It's encouraging to hear there is some circuit training before new hire's are thrown on the line, contrary to what some are postulating. I read NetJets' are expecting to take delivery of a number of Hawkers and Falcons this year and next so maybe that would ease the burden on aircraft and free up some for training?

[south coast]

not likely mix master....in desperate need of planes and even more so of crews.

the new planes are needed to stop sell offs and to cope with the new card holders and owners that they are constantly signing up.

the planes will not be sat idle!

[redsnail]

The Mixmaster,

After being selected by Netjets and did their type rating course we (there were 4 of us) had to do the obligatory 4-6 circuits with a TRE to get the rating on our licence. That's normal, you get that even with easyJet.

The next time we flew was with our owners. The cadets are allegedly going to do 8 or so approaches without fare paying pax, ie owners. They are going to ferry the aeroplane from Paris to Luton to London City to goodness knows where else with NO pax to get familiar with our more popular destinations. This is a very expensive exercise.

With the new aircraft coming online, there will be little or no spare capacity. There's none now. The hardest part will be persuading the line trainers to stay on as is. Nearly all are exhausted and want out. They are in high demand from other airline and bizjet groups.

Make no mistake, this is not standard airline flying. We do use SOPs and so on to mitigate the differences we face every day. My husband flies for easyJet, his hardest day is a usual day at Netjets.

I would say Taxi2parking is very well aware of the facts and what it's like to work for Netjets. Flintstone is too but he's managed to jump ship. In fact, most of the posters here know exactly what it's like to work for Netjets or for a charter company.

[The Mixmaster]

Redsnail, apart from the bit about posters here (I did say I was mainly chatting about space pig, apologies if I've offended any NetJets veterans), we're in complete agreement:ok: Just because I work with an airline does not mean that I therefore think NetJets is an identical outfit. Far from it!

[hawkerpilot]

Let's read over the Netjets article in Flight International again:

(said by Robert Dranitzke,business development Director of Netjets)
".....while Netjets Direct entry vacancies continue to be oversubscribed:confused: ,we want people who fly with us for the rest their full career.(talking about ab initio guys and girls)We are ensuring we have a continious flow of the best pilots the industry has to offer"


Now that will lead to a few conclusions:

1) There is no shortage of crews with Netjets contrary to what all the pilots working for Netjets are saying, you guys are not overworked due to shortage of crew , you are just whining and don't have the big picture:confused:

2)The current crews do not fly with Netjets for the rest of their career, that is fully correct, they leave , being fed up. That's why they need to hire ab-initio's.

3)Current Netjets pilots are not the best the Industry has to offer, that is why the ab initio's come in: they are better pilots

4) Netjets pilots are the best the industry can offer, all other major airlines are just trying, but will never reach the level of the netjets pilot:uhoh:

Just had another read of a Netjets advertisement leaflet in which they claim " the average pilot with Netjets has 7000 flighthours" This means, in order to keep this impressive average, for every ab-initio, they will have to hire a 14000 hour grizzled captain, but hey no problem ,the vacancie continue to be oversubscribed...................

Everything else is just a plane, or was it fool?:ok:

[Flintstone]

hawkerpilot's double post means one of several things.;)
1. There's an echo in here...here...here........
2. hawkerpilot simply loves the sound of his own voice and deliberately posted twice.
3. hawkerpilot suffers from a nervous disposition which causes him to hit the key again and again n n n n n n n.
4. Spock was right in chapter 14 of the original Star Trek and there are such things as holes in the space/time continuum munum munum munumunum.
Whatever the explanation he's an extremely perceptive gentleman:O

[falconbis]

Cadets for airline like Air France for example are selected on academic back ground plus psycho motor tests which demonstrated they natural gifted habilities to fly and finally a deep psychological profiling..then they will be trained 2 years on basic flying into a dedicated AF school (IAAG) using AF pilots detached to training those guys introducing cockpit discipline, CRM and AF culture then once with 250 h and CPL IR frozen ATPl they are doing a turbine transition course flying the Airbus 310 sim on various approaches of they European sectors in IFR/VFR during 6 months after which they will undergo they A320 type rating at AF training center with AF TRI/TRE then begun they Line training on simulator on the same route they will start to fly on actual aircraft.They will be doing one year of Line Training flying mainly all routes of the Europeans AF network during all that time they will be pay 1200 euros a months and after final Line Check they will be joining the AF salary grid for the rest of they aviation carreer.
Netjets program is fundamentaly different for a task far more difficult than flying schedule and start by who is going to delivered the training...I don t want to be greedy but we had already problems releasing instructors from Oxford that have been hire by Netjets and flight safety will do the type rating :hmm: so what kind of background those Oxford instructors will have, with the amount of work in the UK only remains the one who will be not able to get a airline job I m afraid! knowing that we had more than 1500 h ATPL guys who came back with a PIC check from FSI and did not know how to change the mode of the FGD or even program the FMS! I wonder about were is the safety net about quality control of the training before we get them in winter flying 3 of 4 legs in low vis wx into CIS or former estern europe countries !
Finally the Cadets will pay for they training and will joint the company on the same pay scale that the FO coming with background, experiences, hours and ATPL :ok:

[Lever]

Falconbis, thank you for your post - very interesting.

It sounds as though Air France has a selection and training process very similar to the Royal Air Force.

Take the smartest people that are available (as I recall, the RAF was screening 20,000 qualified applicants each year to fill 100- 150 pilot slots).

Then ensure that the basic and advanced training that is received is from full time, former frontline pilots who instruct for the Central Flying School.

The move them onto a front line aircraft after another lengthy, intensive course.

Assuming success along the way the new pilot is assigned to a Squadron where he will only fly less intensive flights (as he is Limited Combat Ready) but with experienced crewmembers (Combat Ready).

This is a proven, safe and progressive.


The NetJets model is none of these - I think NetJets has started something that is fundamentally unsafe.

Lever

[hawkerpilot]

"hawkerpilot's double post means one of several things.;)"

.....
Hi Flintstone, do not know what happened,perhaps an unsteady hand!:)

maybe because I am no longer "the best of what the industry has to offer",

I am no longer flying with the "best of the best", like yourself:)

haven't reached 7000 hrs either, wonder who compensated for me over all those years with the best of the best to get to average of 7000 hrs?

Was it you?? then the average must have really dropped since you left: but not to worry, the applicationfiles are oversubscribed......

For sure are two things: when you and me left they lost two linetrainers, and I am much happier and better off(and I presume you to but I cannot speak for you)

take care

HP

[Flintstone]

HP

You have mail.

[space pig]

PS. my point was mainly aimed at Space Pig and a few of the other cynics. I say two fingers to the cynics.(MIXMASTER)

Mr space pig for you mixmaster, you pretend to be mr BIGmaster from your righthandseat, but have no clue what is going on in NJE. As Flintstone pointed out, most of us are current or ex-NJE employees so we DO know what is going on. You say cynic, in NJE we are known as realists. This is how life is on our side. Forget the fancy advertisements in the FLight Intern., as if YOU can pick your choice of falcon or G5 and have a bit of fun. It all comes at a price, and for many this turns out to be more than they are willing to pay, so they leave. NJE still tries to the outside world to keep up appearances with showing a life seen through pink spectacles, but once you have signed up you regret every bit of it.

perhaps next time it would be best to show some manners, but then again, perhaps it is your age...:)

[2604]

"but once you have signed up you regret every bit of it." by space pig

Speak for yourself Mr space pig, would you please!
Thank you.

[barista]

Space Pig is right. It is only the new guys or military with pension who sit and take it.

If you want a carere were they treat you right, go elswere.

[2604]

No barista. space pig is not right. You just agree with him/her

And perhaps you'd care to tell us where to go exactly. Especially to the ones who would like to stay in GA because airline flying is not for them.

[The Mixmaster]

That basically means that when the captain get's a hart attack when he realized he dived into the wrong valley in search of samedan, the novice aviator will have the task to get everybody out of there.

The problem is that he has not been there before (or is Netjets like any airline going to send people to the sim for every cat b and c airport.)

I doubt it.

So this is how this oxford idea will end up sooner or later in a drama.

I am sure customers know this and are more than happy to continue to spend their millions with their beloved family aboard................


Yes, you are quite the realist Professor Space Pig BA, MA, BS.

[PPRuNeUser0215]

The problem is that he has not been there before (or is Netjets like any airline going to send people to the sim for every cat b and c airport.)
I doubt it
I certainly doubt that "any" airline puts guys in the Sim so they can fly into Cat B airports. Amongst other things, a Cat B airport can be a place with a circling height greater than 1000'. Not that rare and not that challenging really. Or it can be a place without an approved Instrument approach...
No sims for Cat Bs in airlines or NJE (unless there is something the training department feels they want you to see or learn about)
Cat Cs are different though but there again you do not need to go in the Sim to operate into it. It may or may not be required.
NJE definitely puts you in the Sim for Chambery, City, Innsbruck and I got to do Sion as well (for Info though).
This post must be a joke but I bite anyway...
That basically means that when the captain get's a hart attack when he realized he dived into the wrong valley in search of samedan, the novice aviator will have the task to get everybody out of there.

and then you mention
I am sure customers know this and are more than happy to continue to spend their millions with their beloved family aboard................
I actually think that if the customer (be of an airline or NJE) realised that the Captain of his flight could dive in the wrong valley and that he was about to have a heart attack too, the fact that the FO is quite inexperienced would come second or thrid in their list of "surprises" on how their millions are spent.
What about if BA sends a Captain with a failing heart who then decides to "dive" on the wrong very remote Island before dying ? Do you think his 250 hours FO would be in a better position to recover from that ?
Maybe yes, maybe not, just as in the case of that pretty ridiculous example posted above.

[space pig]

"And perhaps you'd care to tell us where to go exactly. Especially to the ones who would like to stay in GA because airline flying is not for them."

2604, airline flying is not for you because you are not able to qualify and pass their difficult tests. That' s why you are in GA.

as Barista pointed out it could be interesting for ex mil with pensions or oldtimers from the airliners or the ab-initio building time. Every pilot with a bit of sense of career drive, jobsecurity and a bit of ego cannot honestly say he is not interested flying the airlines.

The ex-airliners that fly with NJE are there because NJE was the only one hiring when they all lost their job after 9-11, they did not pick it as a career choice. They stay until they are fed up or screwed around to much or when the old airline job comes along...

But he, you stay with the "best of the best" or "the best the industry has to offer "as they like themselves to be called and live in your pink world, then I continue with what the real world considers as the real professionals.

and AMEX, being in NJE for a while you should know better. Pilots are being send to unknown airports on a daily bases. Cat B should be self brief, but where is that briefing when you need it? Right, so you leave again unbriefed, and Netjets has qualified Samedan as cat B, but this is not a place for the novice pilot as you well know. Cat C must be trained in the sim, or with a qualified instructor, or as an observer. Check your Part a and b. Netjets has done a few airports in the sim, other cat c you are send by yourself and you can "self-instruct" yourself and your ab-initio, That is the way it goes, safety my ...sh and contrary to the rules. No airline does that. they do send you there first as an observer or with a qualified TRI, if not trained in the sim.
But hey, you guys are the hotshots and don't need that training and you do not complain so the managers like you. and we, the airline minded-safety-minded guys are the "difficult" bad chaps right?
But we all know how it will end.......in airdisaster.com and then we will shake our heads and regret we accepted all the violations to continue for so long.......

[PPRuNeUser0215]

From Space Pig
"And perhaps you'd care to tell us where to go exactly. Especially to the ones who would like to stay in GA because airline flying is not for them."
2604, airline flying is not for you because you are not able to qualify and pass their difficult tests. That' s why you are in GA.
How do you know 2604 doesn't come from an airline and hasn't passed tough airline assessments before getting in NJE ?
The ex-airliners that fly with NJE are there because NJE was the only one hiring when they all lost their job after 9-11, they did not pick it as a career choice.
I come from a long existing airline (with the tests you are talking about), reputable at all levels and which hasn't gone bust yet so the choice to come to NJE was made after considering all aspects of such move. Call me lucky but I had the choice to come to NJE or continue flying the big stuff for a lot more cash.
Pilots are being send to unknown airports on a daily bases And what is strange about it ? Be in GA or even in the large charter operators world such as Britannia/Thomsonfly, Thomas Cook etc...
B should be self brief, but where is that briefing when you need it?
Well if it comes to it, the company sends us PART C on CD ROMs, I have it on my laptop which I carry with me. Perhaps an old habit from my previous company which had all books and documentations on laptops supplied to all its 650 pilots but I have learnt to use it that way.
Cat C must be trained in the sim, or with a qualified instructor, or as an observer. Check your Part a and b.
Err I thought that's what I had said. Apart from the fact that Part B cover Type Specific instructions and operations only. I do not see where it refers to operations in Cat C airports.
On the other hand Part C is where you will find the relevant information.
But hey, you guys are the hotshots and don't need that training and you do not complain so the managers like you. and we, the airline minded-safety-minded guys are the "difficult" bad chaps right?

As said above, you are not the only airline guy here (and not a sacked one either). I would consider myself fairly safety minded to the point that I would say "no" to something I don't like. If I have to get the sack for it then that's ok by me, I have done it in the past and thanks to that, I am still alive today before accidents took place (which they did ).

[African Drunk]

I am a line trainer for a GA company not netjets. I have trained both "250 hour pilots" and those with turboprop/air taxi/instructor background.

The first thing that suprises me about netjets choosing OAT is the structure of the FTO. Oxford prides itself and markets itself as an "Airline training" school, the whole ethos and set up is highly structured to prepare students for the airlines and structured is not the best description of GA. Oxford is geared to "airline preperation", and to the best of my knowledge, having alot of experience of OAT, I have never heard GA spoken of as anything but a fullback if you can't get into an airline.

The APP has moved so far from the old CAA coure. The "supervised " solo time logged is conducted with an instructor on board, teaching as this is considered as necessary to get students through with the reduced amount of a/c flying. I do not believe this helps with the decision making skills and self reliance you need for GA.

Others have discussed the number of airfields, often cat B and C, but what about the many with no handling or ATC. I have conducted line training when I have had to conduct pax through a mile of red tape. When I returned to the a/c we needed to be ready to go. 7 sector days, VFR hops low level to avoid slot delays and 10 minute turnarounds. The operation does not have the luxary of support and set routes that airlines enjoy to bring on low hour pilots.

The 1500hrs meant pilots with an actual aviation background. What advantage is this to line training? Well radio work would be my first point, even an instructor is using and is up to speed with RT, a big help. Instructors and Air taxi pilots have had to organise fueling, booking out, flight plans, wx often from the same type of non pilot friendly places we operate too. They have experience of customer service vital to corporate work. Also airmanship which can only be taught up too a point, but grows with time in the air. Independance and decision making, when a flight is delayed and the turnaround is reduced, you are spliting duties with the captain often stuck in the handlers 20 mins from the a/c unable to supervise every detail, a factor that rarely affects airliners with ground staff and cabin crew.

I have however seen some low hour pilots come into GA with no problems, however these were generally older with previous "life experience". Having been in OAT today my conclusion must be that the 18-22 year old that oxford will send forward will not be what the company is looking for and I believe for the already unhappy line trainers, that I know at Netjets, they will be put under much more pressure.

[deza]

they should make them do 100 singal pilot! that will sort them out.:eek:

[2604]

space pig. Difficult tests?!! Please allow me to laugh. Like Amex I was lucky enough to have both options. And I don't feel the need to be a flying bus driver. Even for better Terms and Conditions. Life is extremely short and I want to enjoy every bit of it. And I work for a company like Netjets because I enjoy it. So no more unjustified insults please.

If you feel you'll be better off in all aspect with an airline, fair enough. It's your choice (if you have one). But you shouldn't try to spoil someone else's.

I welcome the cadets. If they can taxi in Munchen, they can fly into Samedan.;)

[barista]

2604 said
No barista. space pig is not right. You just agree with him/her

And perhaps you'd care to tell us where to go exactly. Especially to the ones who would like to stay in GA because airline flying is not for them.


So your opinion is the only correct one? How arogant.

For other places to go you just have to look outside the cozy world of Netjets. There are many, many jobs to be filled. If you are UK base so many more too.

[2604]

Barista, please do not make me say what I haven't said. My opinion is mine and only mine. Not the correct one nor the wrong one. As his yours and everybody else's.

"The cozy world of Netjets". Exactly!!! I would have never been able to put it so right. But again that's only my opinion. And yours (you said it yourself).

You are welcome to all those many jobs. For the last two years at least the low cost airlines have been looking for over 700 flight crews. And as I've been told eventhough Netjets require a 90 day notice period they wouldn't stand chance in a court of law. And.......you're complaining about Netjets. Bravo.

Perhaps you could take your hat off and give those cadets a chance. Allow them to decide for themselves. Let them find the balance. It wouldn' be kind to burn the bridges before they get on the other side. And don't burn it either once they are on the other side so that they can cross it back if they feel like/need/want it (see different thread)

Oh and does the Earth go around clockwise or anti-clockwise? Or any other way for that matter?:confused:

Sorry not that much knowledge only opinions. Ta

[bizantin]

Hello All,


Amusing to see the various views from the insiders and outsiders. I have been in the company for years and can tell you it will not work. Actually, when the CRJ crashed in Russia, I thought it could be one of ours!

- Amex, Taxiing in Munich is one thing, landing safely in Samedan is another one because taxiing is on the ground!!!

- A cat B airport must have a circling. Yes, but if you know the jar op1, you obviously don't know Sion. There is a circling but very few aircraft can legally and safely go there (125kt) and do the circling and or a missed approach (go around 2,5%from 8000ft to 12200ft).

Flying is not that simple especially with Nje...

I am just waiting ...for the crash. It is the logical next step.

[PPRuNeUser0215]

- A cat B airport must have a circling. Yes, but if you know the jar op1, you obviously don't know Sion
Actually what I meant wasn't that a Cat B airport must have a circling to be a Cat B (it is just not the case) but it is one of the possible "requirements" amongst others which could make it a Cat B. I was only stating an example of what can make certain airlfields,Cat Bs, since sometimes you turn up in those places and at first see nothing unusual. I did not mean it is a requirement because for example, you can have a Cat B airport with a circling less than a 1000' (as for a Cat A) but with a non approved instrument approach. It is all stated in the Part C anyway.

Amex, Taxiing in Munich is one thing, landing safely in Samedan is another one because taxiing is on the ground!!!
Although you are refering to something somebody else said (2604), I thought his comment was quite funny, which I believe was the purpose of his witty comment. ;)

One thing though. I am just waiting ...for the crash. It is the logical next step.
If it is how you feel, why not raise your concerns to the INAC or whatever other Aviation body you think should be informed of such situation ?
Because if I was that certain a "crash" is going to take place under circumstances you have now identified, I would feel bad if such event was to take place when I could have done something to avoid it. Waiting for a crash to happen as you put it is a bit strange in my view.

I do agree though that "Oxford" always had a negative view on GA and I m suprised they find it an acceptable form of aviation now. I guess it is to do with money and nothing else.
I also agree that OAT is not geared up towards training GA pilots since they have never done it nor been interested in doing it.
Finally I agree that it will put a lot pressure on the already stretched training department, the trainers in company expanding quite rapidly.

I welcome cadets but also realise a cadet scheme of that size is a first in this industry, therefore bringing a lot of question marks.

[space pig]

"If it is how you feel, why not raise your concerns to the INAC or whatever other Aviation body you think should be informed of such situation ?
Because if I was that certain a "crash" is going to take place under circumstances you have now identified, I would feel bad if such event was to take place when I could have done something to avoid it. Waiting for a crash to happen as you put it is a bit strange in my view."

AMEX, what Bizantin is saying is what many people think, but what can be done about it? You have a point that we should not wait until an accident happens but all the complaints we have about Netjets form many of the necessary ingredients . Let me name a few:

-Work and rest limitations(travel day 1 and 6, 15 min showtimes, continious short turnarounds-the pressure is always on)
-Items carried, even though the MEL in many cases doesn't allow it, with the result that multiple items are carried which increases the risk of the flight (snowbal effect)
-Badly trained crews, (quick Flightsafety courses with no SOP training, linetrainers can often start over again);linetrainers forced to sign people off early because of commercial pressure.
-overal experience is dropping, very few experienced airline and or military step in nowadays, unlike before. Ab -initio is going to make these things worse, in many places we go you need your collegue 120%, you can't have the linetrainers cope with that more than they allready do and what about the "ordinary" captains, they are becoming linetrainers too because these chaps are way to early signed off. Not the poor chaps fault, some just take a bit more time, but that time will not be given by NJE.
-Fleetmanagers that do not defend crews but defend the companies interest. The good guys that did defend us were quickly removed, we all know their names.

Now the day will come and I agree fully with Bizantin, that the fatal mix of a over tired crew,in the 5thd flight of the day on day 5, with an airplane flying with many outstanding technical items, is going to an unfamiliar place in the mountains in marginal weather, and the crew is a just released very low time FO, still not fully ready and his captain just did his upgrade but has the min. time required and has not got any captain experience.

Will things go ok ? perhaps, because like many times it does, but the situations described above is not a rare occasion, but happens on a daily basis. the day will come that it is just to much

unfortunately.......

Nobody wants that,

But don't say we have not warned anybody, ALL PILOTS in NJE recognizes what is said above and realize the potential disaster, Management knows our complaints for years..
And INAC? Netjets is Inac, ever heard of CC? that was his job, keeping relations well.

yes I am negative, many are, because we care or cared, that is why I and many other left, it was a fight we will never win. Only an accident will open people's eyes. That is how it always goes, sadly enough. Always too late.................

[bizantin]

Totally agree with you space pig. Going to INAC would not change anything. They sign what Netjets wants them to sign. Only a crash would open their eyes...only a crash.

[PPRuNeUser0215]

Going to INAC would not change anything. They sign what Netjets wants them to sign.
Morally it would. You would have done the right thing and you would know it. On the other hand, if you firmly believe what you said above and you were, unfortunately right, how would you deal with, what I would live as a feeling of guilt ?

Without going to the INAC, there is an organisation called the CHIRP (http://www.chirp.co.uk/main/Aviation.htm) where you could write to(anonymously I believe) and raise your concern.
Sometimes if they believe there is ground for it, an enquiry might get triggered.

The CHIRP is a worthwile organisation !!! A lot to be learnt from the reports.

[Fly me to the moon]

Hi there,
What a shame to read from you, Bizentin, Space pig and others ! You're firing at Netjets with an amazing pleasure ! Do you think NJE is the only company sending its crews in difficult places ? Come back on earth guys !! If you need a sim session for every airfield you practice, that's really sad...and you're dangerous ! Dangerous because you seem to believe that it will protect you against danger. Wrong ! Because you'll always have the failure you don't expect at the worst moment ! I'm not against a sim if possible, but not doing one doesn't mean the company is driven by fools !
Air Force planes worldwide are driven by 25 years old captains (Fighters or transport) going anywhere on short delay without special training. They don't crash everyday despite the risks. Why ? Because they are aware !
Air France is crashing a plane every 2 years (Douala, Toronto, Cayenne, Mont St Odile, Absheim...) and they are "the best trained pilots in the world" They spend their time on CRM courses and sim session ! They got a BIG problem in their company, despite the fact they act in the way you feel "the best way"
I'm flight instructor, SFI and line examinator, I think I know a little bit my job. Pilots we instruct are well formated...so well that they are often paralized when an event occurs which is not is the SOP's or Emer CL !! Modern planes made us act like robots. It's safe. But as a Captain, you must think as a aviator, and sometime Return to basics when things go wrong. Unfortunately, pilots don't know their basics anymore. That's the dangerous aspect of writing everything and working like parrots !

How can you say that GA pilots fly GA because they can't expect better ! Who are you guys ? Astronauts?! I'm afraid to see that cockpits are filed with so narrow minded people !! You must be a interesting study case for CRM in the "mutual respect" subtitle !!
I flew Falcons for many years and now I fly a big Airbus. You'll be surprise to learn that I regret every day my former Falcons. Not only those "GA" planes are wonderful tools, but also they fly fantastic missions. I'm loosing my time on 15 destinations with my big truck. I respect the ones who dream of spending 13 hours in a 777 or a 380. I now dream of flying again a Falcon between short airfields.
I don't feel that I make a mistake acting so: Like AMEX, I want to enjoy my job and my life ! You should do the same without considering light weight aircrafts as dangerous insects !!

[barista]

So, Monsieur Moon.

Can I ask how much off your Falcon flying was for Netjets? Under there pressure, there systems and there ways?

I only ask you see.

[Fly me to the moon]

Good evening Barista,
Nothing to hide,
0 hour 0 minute under Netjets flag !!
But disregard Netjets, my purpose was about the whole industry. I can't understand why some people spend so much energy to badmouth companies !
Times are hard and I think no company is perfect. But I'm sure NJE isn't the worst...but it's the most famous ! We should have surprised browsing the behaviours of some small companies trying to survive...
Anyway, as I said, if you take Air France, there way of working seems fantastic, they're a "Major" but they are at the bottom place regarding safety (50th or so)...the worst company among the majors ! Sim session and courses don't make it all. Pressure is everywhere, in the majors too...
I'm not here to say that NJE is the best place to be, because I have no clue to say it is, and I have no clue to say it's not!
I'm just surprised to see people so agressive in their posts ! Their critics are really not constructive but only destructive. How to they behave in a cockpit..? I wonder...:confused:

[space pig]

"I can't understand why some people spend so much energy to badmouth companies !"

FLY ME TO THE MOON, regarding your phrase above, and what you have said about Air France seems to be a contradiction in terms.

Point two I would like to make is that you should not mix apples with oranges. Air France does a great job training people in and outside the sim, but regretably have one big issue that is causing all these incidents and that is communication/hiarchie. A captain is regarded as God and should not be questioned. That is why they pay a price from time to time. That does not mean they don't train people well in other ways, they do that excellent.

Finally, and Barista allready pointed that out to you, we are talking about Netjets. Yes, we bring the bad stuff out and it stinks, but the opposite thing to do is stick your head in the sand and pretend if nothing is happening, or worse , wait until it happens.

Some old aviator told me once that when you feel you are put under pressure by your company(e.g. to brake the rules or force you to do something you do not want to do), you must look at your list of priorities:

1.)your life-Cannot be replaced....
2.)your licence-can give you another job, but no licence , no job
3.)your (current)job-least important.

Think about it, Netjets is often not worth it.

[Life's a Beech]

Space Pig

Where did you pick up that complete load of old twaddle? Why do you assume everyone else wants to get into the airlines just because you do?

"...airline flying is not for you because you are not able to qualify and pass their difficult tests. That' s why you are in GA ... Every pilot with a bit of sense of career drive, jobsecurity and a bit of ego cannot honestly say he is not interested flying the airlines"

I'm in GA. I passed the "difficult" tests to join the Royal Navy (you know, the ones that are harder than the RAF's). I want to stay in GA for now, possibly for my whole career.

The reason I am in GA is that I want flying experience that is different from the airlines. I absolutely love my job, and am only looking to go onto something else that I think will be as interesting, so it's GA or one of a small number of airlines that I know are good to work for, because I have many friends there. Most airlines I wouldn't touch. I have many friends in airlines who moan about their jobs, including one who used to do my job, and says that if he didn't have a £22,000 bond he'd want to come back.

Surely airline pilots have a reputation for unjustified and oversized egos, do they not?

If you have an ego that relates to reality, and any rational analysis of aviation then come and do my job. Few people would say that airline flying is harder than single-crew in an unpressurised twin on ad-hoc charters, sometimes into airports and even small airfields that you haven't heard of until an hour before the flight, briefing from Jeppesens while airborne. The fact that I can do this job strokes my ego just fine. Job security is fine, and career drive can wait. My experience as line and training captain in these circumstances has to help later when I want to shift to the left seat and then have a training role in whatever organisations I fly for afterwards.

[hawkerpilot]

(Space Pig) :"we are talking about Netjets. Yes, we bring the bad stuff out and it stinks, but the opposite thing to do is stick your head in the sand and pretend if nothing is happening, or worse , wait until it happens."

I think this is the issue here, which is getting snowed under by discussions comparing airlines with GA, both have excellent aviators, though airlines have more of a "safetyculture", that cannot be denied.

In many post I can read a few lines that mentions the "culture" in Netjets.Does this hold truth ? Do more people see it this way?
Is Netjets pushing people(W&R)?Bending the rules?Ignoring the MEL?

If this is so, shouldn't we discuss safety related issues of Netjets?Is is a safe company?

Is there really an accident waiting to happen?

Or should we start a new post here?

Where there is smoke there is fire?

[Taxi2parking]

Agreed, I wish people would stop using the military example as a justification for the cadetship scheme in NJE. The selection, training, procedures and flying supervision are all a quantum leap above anything this scheme can provide. The best solution for NJE is to make the job so attractive, especially in terms of pay, benefits and conditions, that well trained experienced people will leave other companys to join.

[TheColonel]

Good luck, but i dont think youll c that happen.

[apron]

do these cadets get paid the same as de pilots??

[Lever]

They get paid €50k per year and then have €20k per year deducted for training costs.

These deductions continue for 5 years.

So, a €30k per year salary, before tax.

So, the multi-millionaire owners have a young kid with no experience flying them around. The kid is earning so little money that he needs to eat their remaining catering to help him get by.

This has got to be the dumbest plan in NetJets history.


Lever

[falconbis]

One of a Netjets flight attendant applied when she got the package she back off as she will earn less than half of her actual Netjets salary !! :uhoh:

[falconbis]

One more thing about Military and Civilian Cadet scheme, may be a 21 years old pilot can fly the mission he have been trained for with a very different approach of safety culture than a civilian trained Pilot. if you look at the promotion of a cadets military Pilots 20 years later, in France around 40 to 50% died in mission, I even have a friend who is part of the 4 survivors out of a class of 14, take AF cadets and do the same ..very different result indeed.
Now to come back on Netjets, the problem is that there is no Safety culture in this Company exept the talking and the use of it for selling, Netjets is a great sales Company and customers think that this is the top of safety..in that their achievment is monumental. Netjets is managed at 80% by ex military Pilots without airline experience , their safety culture is the one of the Airforce that may explain the massive problem.
The last crew performance mesuring system that they try to implement or the best safety pilot award just reinforce our comment about their lack of maturity in the aviation safety area.

[Smeagel]

the best safety pilot award

:O Now there's a story worth sharing:O

NJE toothless safety department invites crew to nominate candidates for an award for having contributed the most to safety within the company.

Crew respond by nominating two pilots who had submitted a Safety Report on their own level bust in a non-radar environment over north Africa (the captain was busted to FO and the FO seat locked in recognition of their honesty and desire to alert their colleagues to the problem).

Safety department responds by telling the crew that the nominations would not be accepted as they were 'inconvenient'.:D

And the 'pro' NJE gang wonder why the company is so unpopular with it's experienced crew?:p

[falconbis]

This is absolutly true...

[buger T]

A 250hr new hire FO will be an FO for a very very very long time, great way to save money on upgrades.
The US regional airlines are doin it too. Some say the low time FO have no "real world" experience to base decisions on. I agree I also ask you this when does an FO make critical decisions ? in the cockpit virtualy never.
The "critical decision for them would be to work for 35k per year and be an FO for four + years and working under the premise that they are special cause they are ab-initio. They arent special they are pawns in a plan to save money.
May not be long from now when a veteren pilot will be looked over at an interview because a 250 or 500 hr kid will be a cheaper employee for a MUCH longer time period.
On another note how safe is it gonna be when you got a Captain who has just gotta prove he is master and commander and Gods gift to aviation to a Child in the right seat who is either bullied into submission or lacks the maturity to overlook a jerk next to him.

[Flintstone]

But Buger, surely the scenario you describe of steep command gradient, arsehole of a captain, bad CRM, call it what you will has always been with us?

I see what you're saying, that low time FO's in general might be more prone to this sort of bullying but I would like to think that in this enlightened age there are fewer of these captains around.

Then again.............................

[buger T]

I honestly don't know what my point was in that last post. I was touching on a few things there I guess,
The winners in the ab-initio hiring program are: #1 The flight schools and all that entails fuel, maintanence administration and airport fees. All of this because of the increased popularity of ab-i programs. Why? because the newbies are getting jobs that were usually reserved for the proven pilots.
#2 winner flight departments who hire them. MONEY SAVINGS. ( however this could come back to bite them when the FO checks out very soon after having gone thru training ( these guys will be on there first job ever and the grass always seems greener somewhere else for a rookie )
What is gonna happen to the reputation of a quality company when an ab-i pilot is sitting up front when an airplane he is "sitting" gets bent ( I have seen many accident reports where one of the first things noted were the experience levels of the pilots) That makes great fodder for the nightly news.
Also gonna bite them when the paying customers see that crew includes a kid whose chewing gum and eyehumping his wife.(threw that one in for fun) you know just does not know how to behave cause he is a kid.
Oh well guess we will see where this goes.

The loser are time tested pilots who want these jobs, the guys with families, morgages and responsibilities. their gonna be pushed out for cheaper in the long run co-pilots. These kids will work for nothing and that is gonna drive payscales straight down !
I am in no way saying that newbies can't possibly do the job. Let em learn the old fashion way by actually working their way into a position of this sort.
Another group of losers are the captains who will fly with these guys doin so basicly single pilot. They are'nt gonna trust the guy for a long time and will add lots of stress to both pilots. that kinda stuff always spills out beyond the cockpit.
In no way are these absolute scenerios not every pilot is the same and of course situations vary.
That pay thing is gonna suck for sure.
As for the Captains treating FOs like crap... the atmosphere is ripe in this ab-i situation.

[bjbb]

I am extremly intrested in becoming a pilot and have looked hard into a many possibilites. The ab initio pilot scheme i believe would benefit operators such as Netjets and larger operators such as Cathay/Dragonair (cadetship) as it provides young fresh faces into the cockpits of new and modern fleets. I agree, whilst these 'kids' may not have the wealth of hands on experience that line checkers, captains etc may have they are suitabally qualified otherwise they would not be sat their in the business end of an a/c!! i think a sharp learning curve is perhaps what is a key priority to their success (in defence of us youths!) and the prosperity of the operator.

bjbb:ok:

[Smeagel]

That's not very nice Mike.

Someone takes the time to write and offer to help you prepare for your next job and you turn him down?

Not friendly at all.

[redsnail]

Smeagel,

I got the same PM. I wrote back asking what exactly he wanted as I already worked for NJE.

This was the reply
sorry i believed you was preparing the netjets/oat selections. sorry again.

As you fly for NJE, i will appreciate to ask you by phone some details of your daily life with netjets.

I replied back that perhaps he should do a search as daily life has already been posted.

So it's not just Mike being targeted. May I give him your details? :E

[Smeagel]

Sure. Feel free.
(Please tell me you didn't miss the thrust of my post. My faith in you will be shattered).

[redsnail]

;) nah. :D

[CREAMER]

Personally I think that this is a very good scheme. I would hope that the selection process will give Netjets the calibre of recruit required with the necessary ability and motivation. I've had the process described to me and it's almost like that done by the military. The military get them young as well and they have to do a bit more than take pax from A to B in a safe, comfortable environment. I don't think the old hands need worry too much as there will always be a requirement for experience at Netjets. This may be somewhat experimental but I hope it works.

The only drawback I can see at the moment is the number of cancelled (empty) line training trips. Can't imagine it happening when the jet is needed for a revenue trip. Maybe the whole thing can be planned so that line training happens in the dead season.:ok:

[silverhawk]

Used to be that almost every other sector was a positioning flight. If that's still the case, line training (HP) can be done on the empty sectors.

I even had a line trainer tried to tell me that only captains were allowed to fly with pax on board. He was soon corrected on that score. Probably more to do with him hoping to keep the tip.

[keepin it in trim]

Falconbis

I don't know what your experience of military safety culture is, but in the military I was in we saw a huge change around 15-16 years ago. From that point on operating safely and flight safety generally became a major priority. Please do not fall into the trap of putting down the military based on outdated views of its attitude to safety, yes, when I went through military training nearly 25 years ago my instructors had similar tales about being one of 2 or 3 survivors of a class of 20 from years before, notably those deaths were in accidents not in combat! Those days are gone, the accident rate in relation to the highly demanding environment of many military ops is very low.

The part of the air force I flew in for my last 10 years in the military we suffered no aircraft losses and no deaths, despite operating in a highly dynamic and reactive environment in the worst weather going, with no notice tasking, not closely supervised and being relied upon to work with all kinds of different agencies and make literally life and death decisions for our "customers" on the spot. I also regularly flew with 250 hour pilots in the other seat, in what was very definitely a crew environment. My overwhelming opinion of these "kids" was how mature and capable they were, and how I wished I had been that good at their stage. Of course they were highly motivated, had been carefully selected and very well trained, amazing how good the product can be if you get that bit right! :)

[hawkerpilot]

They get paid €50k per year and then have €20k per year deducted for training costs.

These deductions continue for 5 years.

So, a €30k per year salary, before tax.


Quick money making tip for the Ab-Initio:

5 times 20K Euro is 100K Euro that they take away from you.

A typerating citation Bravo is only 15K USD = 10,5K Euro.

So you lose(they steal) 89.500 Euro from you in 5 years.

Go to the states, do they typerating yourself, spend 10,5 K Euro, join desperate businesscompanies(NOT NETJETS) and after 2 years join the airlines.

NOW WHAT ABOUT THAT ?;)

[south coast]

Hawker, dont they also have to recover the training costs, ie. your flight training at Oxford that Nj has paid for?

[theWings]

I get your general point hawkerpilot, though I think you are bending the numbers a little...

But what about those of us who actually want to stay in GA? I agree that the NJE/OAT scheme has its faults (were I back in the position to, I wouldn't apply), but perhaps some of the people it is aimed at are thinking beyond "GA as a stepping stone to the airlines"? The long view?

[erikv]

hawker,

maybe it's my rose-tinted glasses, but didn't you just forget to account for the ab-initio bit of the training?

So 100.000 euros to be paid retroactively for an effective start of a career in aviation? I know plenty of guys coughing up 100.000 up front for a CPL, frozen ATPL and ME-IR only...

Erik

[Smeagel]

Personally I think that this is a very good scheme........
The problem is Creamer that it will go the same way as most things at Netjets. You know how you go to the theatre? The scenery on stage is fantastic, the cast (crew) are giving it their all to make it look like the programme (sales catalogue) describes. From the correct perspective it all looks convincing.
Then you get this irresistible urge to go to the toilet. You creep across your row to the aisle apologising to everyone and when you get to the aisle at the side of the auditorium you can see that scenery is made of papier mache and in the wings is a prompter with the company script calling out to the cast/crew, telling them what to say. Lots of lights, mirrors, smoke and glitter.
Most of the cast/crew are fantastic people who do their best but it's the others selling the tickets and counting the money in the box office that let them down.

[theWings]

Oh come on Smeagel, this is getting so :zzz:

You may, in the end be correct, and I accept you know much more about NJE than the rest of us. But you can't see into future and so you just can not declare with any authority that this scheme is going to be a failure. So don't do it.

I can imagine that performance at the theatre. But this time we don't go to the loo, we just sit through an endless loop of the same scene and the same script. That's us watching you, that is.

[Smeagel]

That's us watching you, that is.:O Mary Whitehouse Experience :D

And see you not wanting to be warned about getting into something you'll regret. That's you that is. That's your mum :p *

You're right Mr Wings. I should mind my own business. I should just sit back and watch everyone sign on the dotted line and then say "I could have warned you".

To continue the theme though this place (PPRuNe) is just like watching television. If something appears on your TV screen that you don't want to watch you can change channel or select 'off'. In here there are other threads to read or the 'X' in the top, right corner.

Go on, click it. You know you'll feel better;)






*Apologies to those either too young or without access to UK TV not to understand this.